Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Dr. Detective]

IDW'S Sonic the Hedgehog thread.

1% Shadow.

99% Hot Gas. 

[dbzfan7]

27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

No shadow is.

If Shadow left, do you honestly think Rouge and Omega would hang out and be on a team? No. If Omega left, Rouge and shadow would be fine, if rouge left omega and shadow would be fine, maybe some bruises and dents but fine. Shadow is the reason that omega exists in the first place , and the whole reason rouge found omega is because of shadow. Shadow by virtue of literally existing is why that team literally exists in universe and IRL. Yeah rouge stopped them from fighting, and that's good she's a cool head. But if shadow would have said " Seeya loosers you both smell " and never had any desire to team up with any of them, they wouldn't have stayed to gether. Shadow is litterally the connective tissue on that team

Rouge admits basically this in sonic 06, she's says to shadow I believe something to the effect of " I'll follow you anywhere"  Not you both, or not we are a team we stick together. she's there for shadow. She cares about omega , but yeah

 

The heroes journey is a universal concept that influences for all stories ever , even holy texts that people based their lives on. The " Lancer " concept doesn't make sense because this isn't some common thing where i go " Oh I know what you are talking about"

You know why you confused me when you first said it, because I play a video game where a " lancer " is the leader and the protagonist, I play MULTIPLE video games and have a bunch of media where the " Lancer " is the main character. You know why? Because the lancer isn't universally known concept that so known through out fiction that evoking its name makes people instantaneously familiar with your argument. The leader of the team is whoever the people writing the story feel like should be writing that tail. Heck, one of my favorite series avatar went from a level headed dude who doesn't like fighting to a girl who is the " lancer " and she was the leader. The leader is who ever the desire to be the leader and works when done well around what is worth telling.

So yes , this is me pushing aside an argument that I don't want to counter, because its some shit you value in your head. And that's fine, but in regards to other media, and to other people it holds no standard to how things should be done and holds no barring on how people should think about their media, and when brought up in an argument it can be ignored because the context doesn't apply

I think he's a fine one.

But I also think team dark shouldn't exist at all. Like I think that team dark is a bad idea, shadow and rouge should be friends who occasionally hang out and not every sonic thing needs to be split up in team format

That's ridiculous. Rouge is the whole reason they didn't kill each other. And actually yes Rouge could totally have gotten Omega to comply, which is already what she did in the first place. She's the reason they go anywhere. She wasn't looking for Shadow, she happened to bump into him and Omega, and then make the best of it. Shadow could have left and they'd have been fine. He had no memory so he really had nowhere else to even go, and makes even less sense as a leader in that condition. The team was her idea as well. You be leader hedgehog who can't remember a thing. That makes sense.

A line like that doesn't say he's a leader. Just that she'll help because she's her friend, and she's going to get involved. If you want to take that as an example, fair enough. Shadow is no better than Knuckles and has shown he's about the same if not worse at it than he is. I have no reason to believe he'd even be better than Knuckles at it.

A LANCER IS NOT THE MAIN CHARACTER. You don't even know what it means do you? They are the opposite of the main character. Literally. They are not a single character trait. Its entire definition is to be opposing to the MAIN CHARACTER. They are created in CONTRAST to the main character, not as the basis. Whether strong or soft emotions, it's the polar opposite. The main character is smart, the lancer is brash or vise versa with different characters. The lancer can't be the main character, and saying they are is like saying someone defined as the side character is the main character. It's in their definition they aren't. It'd be like saying the main character is not the main character...when by definition...they are!

No it doesn't apply to YOU. To you who says Shadow has these qualities when you don't show them. Who says he's a fine leader without showing any sense of true leadership examples. To who doesn't even understand what I am saying and clearly gets their definition wrong.

I don't have much to add when you don't understand basic character structure.

[StaticMania]

You could've just explained what the term Lancer means and apply the traits to Shadow the Hedgehog accordingly...

It would've been a lot more simple.

[dbzfan7]

43 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

You could've just explained what the term Lancer means and apply the traits to Shadow the Hedgehog accordingly...

It would've been a lot more simple.

I thought I did before when bringing it up the first time. But I'll simply things. And this will be the last time I bring it up because I hate how I side tracked things on this topic of all things.
 

Brief reason of using this term/as well as explanation.

-Lancer was used more as an example to Shadow's behavior which is very anti-leader like. Goes off on his own. Believes more in his own power than bothering with others. Not particularly even comfortable around others or really listening to any authority, etc. This is a typical case, but even then this can be subverted by having the main character be all these things, and the Lancer being law abiding and a rule bookworm for example.

I though it would be simple to understand as the rival term is even more complex than a Lancer is. A rival can be like a million different things, compared to a lancer which is only plausibly whatever the main character isn't. Rival is so much more vast, but that seems genuinely understood here.

If further discussion is warranted send me a PM. Otherwise I personally end my discussion on this topic in the thread so we can keep it about the current chapter.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

I love how its Metal Sonic that jogs Eggman's memories. Makes sense, he is Eggman's greatest creation

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

If further discussion is warranted send me a PM. Otherwise I personally end my discussion on this topic in the thread so we can keep it about the current chapter.

Oh I just saw this. Well i'm gonna hold off on that. I have no interest in continuing this argument. You trying to apply one concept you heard one time as some universal truth for fiction.

 

Now we can talk about the real shit, where's big?

[Gumbit]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Now we can talk about the real shit, where's big?

Where is Cream ? and mostly where is Omega ? He was in the game story .

Simply they didn't bother adding them , because there won't be an out cry about not involving them .

[RedFox99]

I liked how this issue kind of explained why the heroes didn't try using the Chaos Emeralds during the war.

[Gumbit]

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

I liked how this issue kind of explained why the heroes didn't try using the Chaos Emeralds during the war.

I kinda like that too , because I don't want chaos emeralds to be solution for everything and the edning will be predictable every time . Sonic go super and everyone else sit and watch .

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gumbit

[Korke]

2 hours ago, Gumbit said:

Where is Cream ? and mostly where is Omega ? He was in the game story .

Simply they didn't bother adding them , because there won't be an out cry about not involving them .

Or because Cream would add nothing to the narrative. Can't quite say the same for Omega though...

[Heckboy]

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Now we can talk about the real shit, where's big?

He's in prison for the atrocities he committed during the war.

[Sonictrainer]

What weapons do you think Eggman will make for Rough & Tumble?

Eggman versions of the Wispons?

Robot Armor?

Stronger versions of Badniks to pilot (like Jimmy the Motobug from Mania)?

 

[SBR2]

12 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's also not like Sonic does any real leading himself; people just follow him naturally of their own accord. 

 

Hell, the first few issues is Sonic trying to go off on his own but being dragged in to work with everyone else. Shadow isn't much different in that regard, he's just more willing to tell someone to fuck off. 

Sonic trying to do his own thing and getting roped into crazy schemes is a good summery of the entire franchise TBH.

[DabigRG]

12 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Batman actually does coordinate his team. Trains them, prepares them. Does a shit more than Shadow ever has in this kind of role. Batman is also more of a team player too, as well as being on several teams and having the BAT family. He leads, he solo's, he can do either or. He doesn't just bring a team together and then go YOLO I'M BATMAN!!! like Shadow basically does.

Eh, he does sometimes, going solo and/or behind his teams' backs at times depending on the circumstances or even slightly plotting against them just in case.

But the key distinction is that yes, Batman does have the knowledge & at least a few of the qualities befitting a leader, as well as actual character development that lead to him being able to do so more effectively.

12 hours ago, StaticMania said:

How can they show leadership without the characters talking?

Does he have to have code signs or something?

Why would Shadow not be talking? Like, at all?

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

 

Anyone can be called a leader, you're right about that, but that doesn't make them fitting or appropriate for said role. Knuckles is the Leader of the Resistance. Yet do we think he was a good or even proper leader? I'm sure if you asked, a lot of people would say absolutely not. Hell Amy was the one feeling more like a leader than Knuckles. 

Correction: He is the Commander of the Resistance.

9 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

A LANCER IS NOT THE MAIN CHARACTER. You don't even know what it means do you? They are the opposite of the main character. Literally. They are not a single character trait. Its entire definition is to be opposing to the MAIN CHARACTER. They are created in CONTRAST to the main character, not as the basis. Whether strong or soft emotions, it's the polar opposite. The main character is smart, the lancer is brash or vise versa with different characters. The lancer can't be the main character, and saying they are is like saying someone defined as the side character is the main character. It's in their definition they aren't. It'd be like saying the main character is not the main character...when by definition...they are!

Uuuh...technically they can be? Depends on how the story is set up from the focal point character's perspective.

Sonic himself was arguably more or less this in SATAM.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Heckboy said:

He's in prison for the atrocities he committed during the war.

No bullshit

I have a head canon universe where big isn't like dumb, he's an old man who had been through a horrible war and did dumb shit and occasionally gives the heroes life advice and seems pleasant to be around. But hiding behind that mild manner is an old solider who did messed up stuff.

28 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Sonic trying to do his own thing and getting roped into crazy schemes is a good summery of the entire franchise TBH.

" I guess i'm being framed to hide war crimes today "

Seinfeld theme plays

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

What weapons do you think Eggman will make for Rough & Tumble?

Eggman versions of the Wispons?

Robot Armor?

Stronger versions of Badniks to pilot (like Jimmy the Motobug from Mania)?

Some sort of trapping systems that keeps people in place, so they can punch em

5 hours ago, Gumbit said:

Where is Cream ? and mostly where is Omega ? He was in the game story .

Simply they didn't bother adding them , because there won't be an out cry about not involving them .

He's in time out.  He was a bad boy. And had to sit this one out.

( Seriously though I have no idea, Ian could have just had him show up on the ship and it would have been fine. Seems like whether it be for story reasons or creative control there's a specific reason for him being gone )

 

 

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Gumbit said:

Where is Cream ? and mostly where is Omega ? He was in the game story .

Simply they didn't bother adding them , because there won't be an out cry about not involving them .

They and Gemerl were apparently intended on including them at one point, but decided to give them their own introduction stories after the first arc

 

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

What weapons do you think Eggman will make for Rough & Tumble?

Eggman versions of the Wispons?

Robot Armor?

Stronger versions of Badniks to pilot (like Jimmy the Motobug from Mania)?

 

Whatever it is, it relies on their individual statures to be effective.

[dbzfan7]

15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Uuuh...technically they can be? Depends on how the story is set up from the focal point character's perspective.

Sonic himself was arguably more or less this in SATAM.

They literally can't. By literal definition that's impossible. Unless you can tell me someone labelled a supporting character is the main character.

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh I just saw this. Well i'm gonna hold off on that. I have no interest in continuing this argument. You trying to apply one concept you heard one time as some universal truth for fiction.

Pretending to know what your talking about is more your specialty.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

They literally can't. By literal definition that's impossible. Unless you can tell me someone labelled a supporting character is the main character.

Characters can be anything the want because the author dictates it and that's it. Thus trying to apply a universal concept or rather something you perceive as one to fiction in general is stupid. I literally just watched a thing where that type of person is the protagonist. Whoops guess your rule is broken by most fiction that exists now.

2 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Pretending to know what your talking about is more your specialty.

I know what i'm talking, the thing you are talking about means nothing to no one but you.

[dbzfan7]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Characters can be anything the want because the author dictates it and that's it. Thus trying to apply a universal concept or rather something you perceive as one to fiction in general is stupid. I literally just watched a thing where that type of person is the protagonist. Whoops guess your rule is broken by most fiction that exists now.

I know what i'm talking, the thing you are talking about means nothing to no one but you.

Try reading the actual definition. Like actually try. Because that's not possible if you read it. When you argue against the literal definition, you have no case.

You already showed you pretended to know by arguing against the definition itself. You have more of a chance arguing a case that the sky is made of bubble gum, than saying you know what you're talking about.

I repeat....A Lancer is a REACTIONARY CHARACTER, CREATED SOLELY TO OPPOSE THE MAIN CHARACTERS IDEALS! The literal definition. A lancer is not a single typical trait just as a rival is not always for instance rude or an ass hat for example in other stories.

[Shadowlax]

And the main character, or Team leader can be anything the author dictates for that story.

Again, shit is meaningless to everyone  but you

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And the main character, or Team leader can be anything the author dictates for that story.

Again, shit is meaningless to no one but you

I literally agreed with that a while ago like holy shit. Are you not paying attention? Not to mention missing that I explain the term I've been using this whole time was more of a relation to point out qualities more commonly not part of leadership.

I'm not even arguing against him being the leader as he is, by definition. It's a fact from the comic he is the leader, just as it's a fact Knuckles is Commander of the resistance. Doesn't mean I believe they are good at it. So instead of trying to pretend you understand terms when you clearly don't, look at the overall argument and the point of them, the nuances, instead of focusing on a single thing.

[Diogenes]

A character can't be both the main character and not the main character. If an archetype is defined as being a secondary or supporting character relative to the main character, and you try to make the main character that archetype, then either they're not the main character or they're not that archetype.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

I literally agreed with that a while ago like holy shit. Are you not paying attention? Not to mention missing that I explain the term I've been using this whole time was more of a relation to point out qualities more commonly not part of leadership.

I'm not even arguing against him being the leader as he is, by definition. It's a fact from the comic he is the leader, just as it's a fact Knuckles is Commander of the resistance. Doesn't mean I believe they are good at it.

Because you keep describing traits that even sonic has and he's the leader of his team. And what i'm saying is this universe values different traits because it values different things and trying to use a qualifier for a " Lancer " as leader or whatever doesn't make any sense because its context sensitive.

Let me be clear here I don't care if shadow's the leader of shit. I don't think team dark should exist. I have no skin in this game, I just saying that you try and apply a value system to a series that doesn't care about those values.

[dbzfan7]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A character can't be both the main character and not the main character. If an archetype is defined as being a secondary or supporting character relative to the main character, and you try to make the main character that archetype, then either they're not the main character or they're not that archetype.

Exactly. Thank you. You understand. If only others could get it as easily as you do. Like wow it's a breath of fresh air to see someone understand simple definitions. 

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because you keep describing traits that even sonic has and he's the leader of his team. And what i'm saying is this universe values different traits because it values different things and trying to use a qualifier for a " Lancer " as leader or whatever doesn't make any sense because its context sensitive.

Let me be clear here I don't care if shadow's the leader of shit. I don't think team dark should exist. I have no skin in this game, I just saying that you try and apply a value system to a series that doesn't care about those values.

Because they're not. Sonic is everything Shadow isn't. The exact opposite for the most part. My term was used more as an example, and not trying to use it as the end all be all as you keep making it seem like. Want another example? You can have a main character, and another character which is Lancer be the leader. The main character of the story we follow who say is brash, headstrong, maybe kinda dumb, can run into someone who is smart, focused, level headed who leads their group. It can happen from that perspective.

No it's something you misunderstand, then pretend to understand, and then use it to avoid even giving any example of leadership ability by instead focusing all thought process on this term, instead of giving me good examples of Shadow leadership beyond that he exists.