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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm on the train of "Ian made me like Silver" at least.

I'd welcome Infinite just fine if he did make it into the book but my current perception of him makes it hard to care that he's isn't. So its whatever. I'm good either way.

Not caring is fine but if I was in Ian's position I'd never shut myself out on potential characters if I could help it. Just reading his writing over the years has made me think that you shouldn't leave potential on the table.

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Yeah I don't really get this. Infinite is worthy of a second chance but Zavok needs to die and be forgotten because...he wasn't super interesting or something? 

I assumed the point was if Zavok, who has about the same amount of character depth and personality as Infinite (which isn't much), and Sega keeps bringing him back (which isn't entirely true seeing as how he's a phantom in Forces and he was only just slotted in to some shitty racer nobody cares about), then that might as well be extended to Infinite.

Personally, the Six and Infinite are characters I'd be fine never seeing again, but, hell, Ian made the Six kind of fun and interesting in the second Sonic and Mega Man crossover (the story where Zazz, Zik, and Zomom take out Mega Man is probably the best showing they ever had, and Joel Enos's story where Zavok, Zeena and Zor are a slightly less effective team against Sonic but still manage to overpower him and actually interact like they're part of the same group are the best those characters will probably ever look)--and there's really not a lot of good things to say about that crossover. I think he could do the bare minimum to make Infinite a more interesting opponent for Sonic since the prequel comic was a hell of a lot better than he was in the actual game. A competent/good writer can at least make them enjoyable when they're around.

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Yeah I don't really get this. Infinite is worthy of a second chance but Zavok needs to die and be forgotten because...he wasn't super interesting or something? 

It’s that people tend to decide when a villain’s blown their chances to improve eventually, and don’t accept any future appearances by them. 

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4 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

So Ian's BumbleKast aired today. Infinite is confirmed off-limits.

At this point, Ian is better off saying what isn't off-limits. I get that SEGA's trying to avoid another Archie Sonic situation, but this is just getting ridiculous now.

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31 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I feel like the people who genuinely liked him wouldn't be phrasing this in terms of fixing/improving him or talking about the potential he could have had.

They talk about his potential precisely because they liked what they saw and wished it was handled better. It's the main reason people prefer him over the Deadly Six, people hate them because there isn't anything to speculate or build on, no potential to speak. Infinite has something to latch onto that could have been good in the hands of a competent writer and that's what people want to see.

Half of the reason these characters even have fans is because they want to see them used to their fullest potential that almost never gets utilized in the games.

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23 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

hell, Ian made the Six kind of fun and interesting in the second Sonic and Mega Man crossover (the story where Zazz, Zik, and Zomom take out Mega Man is probably the best showing they ever had, and Joel Enos's story where Zavok, Zeena and Zor are a slightly less effective team against Sonic but still manage to overpower him and actually interact like they're part of the same group are the best those characters will probably ever look)--and there's really not a lot of good things to say about that crossover. 

As much as people say this and as much as I do like them in Worlds Unite I don't think they're really all that different than Lost World. 

I've watched a play through and quite frankly they seem to be pretty much the same there as in the comics. They aren't particularly deep but I never really saw them as being as terrible as everyone likes to make them out to be.

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Just now, SBR2 said:

As much as people say this and as much as I do like them in Worlds Unite I don't think they're really all that different than Lost World. 

I've watched a play through and quite frankly they seem to be pretty much the same there as in the comics. They aren't particularly deep but I never really saw them as being as terrible as everyone likes to make them out to be.

 The main reason they aren't liked is because they don't do anything really notable. Being shallow villains is fine if you're entertaining in some way, but the Deadly Six kind of fail at that because they do nothing of note. They spout their generic villain lines, get their asses kicked by Sonic, and that's that. 

I think Zaysho prefers them in the comics because they actually get to be competent. even if their personalities are still pretty one-note. 

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3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They talk about his potential precisely because they liked what they saw and wished it was handled better. It's the main reason people prefer him over the Deadly Six, people hate them because there isn't anything to speculate or build on, no potential to speak. Infinite has something to latch onto that could have been good in the hands of a competent writer and that's what people want to see.

Half of the reason these characters even have fans is because they want to see them used to their fullest potential that almost never gets utilized in the games.

I generally agree with this

Though infnite has like a problem?

Do you ignore the supplementary material and the DLC, or do you ignore the game. Because game infinite and supplementary material and DLC infinite are basically two different characters. And when combined make infinite look like a super chump.

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 The main reason they aren't liked is because they don't do anything really notable. Being shallow villains is fine if you're entertaining in some way, but the Deadly Six kind of fail at that because they do nothing of note. They spout their generic villain lines, get their asses kicked by Sonic, and that's that. 

I think Zaysho prefers them in the comics because they actually get to be competent. even if their personalities are still pretty one-note. 

I don't even view them as characters personally. They are so blame I can only view them as obstacles. I have seen no reason for me to acknowledge their sentience in anyway.

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I generally agree with this

Though infnite has like a problem?

Do you ignore the supplementary material and the DLC, or do you ignore the game. Because game infinite and supplementary material and DLC infinite are basically two different characters. And when combined make infinite look like a super chump.

 

That's because the writing is inconsistent and stupid; you can make a coherent story out of that. 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Not caring is fine but if I was in Ian's position I'd never shut myself out on potential characters if I could help it. Just reading his writing over the years has made me think that you shouldn't leave potential on the table.

Well, if the conversation is about whether he'd leave potential on the table, obviously he shouldn't. This isn't really a matter of that though. He can't use Infinite so it's not even on the table.

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

That's because the writing is inconsistent and stupid; you can make a coherent story out of that. 

So i'm not doubting Ian's writing skill, but these guys are basically different characters, infact i'm wrong its not two different characters its 3 different characters. And they are kinda weird

Ok So you got game infinite. He's the pompus holier than thou , i'm the greatest guy not out for revenge thing but wants to make the world suffer and watch it burn, and basically flew his muscles. He's a show off and that causes him to forget things and over estimate himself. Now this characterization has no motivation besides " I got the POWAH " , and Ian would have to like, make some. But that's like 1

So here's infinite number 2. Now while infinite number 2 is similar to infinite number right. He see's shadow he tries to fight him, gets bodied , can't handle it reality check. Here's the thing, he has friends. So now you gotta acknowledged that, so like where do you go with that? DId he crawl back to them with no ruby, like does he go out and find them? Or is it like a griffith situation and they are all dead and they needed to be sacrificed for his powers. Or hey did shadow actually kill them and he wants to be strong not to have his friends killed anymore. And doing any thing with his friends essentially requires getting rid of the character that he was in sonic forces

So now you got infinite number 3 who is unlike the first two , completely different. Who is a calculating petty, cowardous, vindictive asshole. And this one interests me the most.

Now before I continue, you who might want to respond to this comment. Yes you . I know what you are thinking about what happened in the shadow DLC , that didn't happen there are holes in that story. And while I am about to explain what it with a comedic bent through exaggeration, its pretty accurate. Just want to cut this off at the pass , any who back to the explanation .

Infinite unlike his previous characterizations is a big coward in this one and I love it. Expecting shadow to come , he does his best dale gribble impression and does " Pocket Rubies SHAAAHAHAAA" whilst shadow is getting the ruby sand out of his eyes for about a minute or so infinite puts on the self destruct and bounces. Now this might seem like an anti climatic interaction and no means an explanation as to why shadow , a guy who feel from orbit and lived, was missing for several months and never contacted his friends ( unless MAYBE HE DID BECAUSE EVEN THE STORY ITS SELF CONTRADICTS THIS ). This interact reveals an entirely different character and bent for the character that is way more interesting than his other incarnations. Instead of being a bully, or pompous... he's just a coward fronting. He's a goddamn messs. He is waiting in this one base hoping shadow shows up, and then upon doing his attack probably realizes " Oh shit... he's already breaking out of my rub dust and he can still beat the shit out of me, i'm gonna be petty as shit and blow up the whole base and leave. And then beat on some other people.

This is the one I would prefer they go with but its a bit different, its calculated, its petty , its a bit more competent than the other incarnations because he tries to actually finish the job, and with a possible vindictive bent towards shadow. Like i'm here for omega coward infinite. I'm here for " YOU DIDN'T WIN " infinite, but its a bit different from the almost... uncaring already assuming he's better than you infinite that exists in the story and the DLC before this. He cares , alot he's fronting and he's a coward and I want that.

But my overall point is , infinite is kinda 3 different characters

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....I don't even...know what you were talking about for like...half of that. Weird tangent.

 

But yea, it's really not as complicated as you're trying to make it sound: Infinite thinks he's the hottest shit, tries to go after Eggman, that doesn't work and agrees to work with the guy cuz "hey, I get to do what the fuck I want". Shadow shows up, tries to attack him thinking he's hot shit. Gets bodied. Wants more power so he'll never feel weak again and goes on a power trip. 

It really kind of is that simple. And even then, Ian is...free to ignore details as he sees fit. 

So...what's the problem?

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7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So...what's the problem?

Huh its not really that big of an issue, I mean I'm going to be 100% with you , if we see infinite he's likely going to be nothing like anything from the game or supplementary comic , and even ontop of that I don't think we are ever going to see infinite again. I'm just saying the story is disjointed and accidentally produced 3 separate people,

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I'm a big fan of Infinite, so that he's currently barred from the comic is disappointing. As has been said earlier, Omega was once barred from Archie Sonic and was eventually let in, while Eggman Nega has always been banned from this material. My guess is that they haven't decided whether they want Infinite to be a returning character or not yet and aren't comfortable with IDW using him until they have. Or they already made up their mind that they don't want to use Infinite again and are essentially discarding him. I'd hate to see that happen, but who really knows with Sega. I know the social media team used him in a Friday the 13th post a while back.

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5 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

And yet when Zavok’s pulled out again, that’s not considered a chance to improve him...

 

Zavok's in a racecar driving game teamed up with his previous slavemaster and his derivative puppet.

When he shows up in the comics or in a game where his character can actually matter, then we can talk.

5 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

 

Also, could Ian Flynn make a new character based on Infinite?

Oh, definitely. That's actually really easy to do, as long as he doesn't get carried away.

Which is also easy to do.

4 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Yeah I don't really get this. Infinite is worthy of a second chance but Zavok needs to die and be forgotten because...he wasn't super interesting or something? 

Guess he just wasn't Deviantart enough.

I don't know what he is, but it sure ain't deviantart.

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I feel like the people who genuinely liked him wouldn't be phrasing this in terms of fixing/improving him or talking about the potential he could have had.

To be fair, just about anything has potential and/or could use some improvement in areas.

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2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I've watched a play through and quite frankly they seem to be pretty much the same there as in the comics. They aren't particularly deep but I never really saw them as being as terrible as everyone likes to make them out to be.

It's more in what they get to do versus them being better characters. They at least felt like a legitimate threat and had some fun interactions instead of just standing around and trash talking the player the whole time. I don't really care about exploring them in-depth, I just want to it to feel satisfying when the hero beats them. Their game incarnations are fucking losers.

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3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I assumed the point was if Zavok, who has about the same amount of character depth and personality as Infinite (which isn't much),

image.jpeg.a21140e9a0c60b810da6f8adb24b18ef.jpeg

 

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Ian made the Six kind of fun and interesting in the second Sonic and Mega Man crossover (the story where Zazz, Zik, and Zomom take out Mega Man is probably the best showing they ever had, and Joel Enos's story where Zavok, Zeena and Zor are a slightly less effective team against Sonic but still manage to overpower him and actually interact like they're part of the same group are the best those characters will probably ever look)

Yeah, I really liked the Megaman story. And the Sonic story was kinda dynamic, too.

I mean, Zavok turning into 627 was pretty out there for his character, but sure. 

(Though it does help that he seems to be irritated by Zeena to begin with :lol:)

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

 A competent/good writer can at least make them enjoyable when they're around.

Pretty much.

3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

It’s that people tend to decide when a villain’s blown their chances to improve eventually, and don’t accept any future appearances by them. 

People tend to do that with things in general.

 

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6 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

And yet when Zavok’s pulled out again

I read about that much of this quote before doing a double take, and then realizing there was more. Man I am tired right now...

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8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Man I can't see how this is anything but good news. Do people really want time spent trying to rehabilitate trash instead of focusing on characters who are actually likeable, or on new characters that are actually good from the start?

I don't understand comments like this. I personally think the writing in the games sucks in general, so Infinite who had potential was actually handled pretty badly IMO. With good writing, any "bad" characters can be improved, and I do think the comics are the right place for that, thanks to Ian Flynn. But yeah... SEGA's weird decisions, I know...

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10 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Man I can't see how this is anything but good news. Do people really want time spent trying to rehabilitate trash instead of focusing on characters who are actually likeable, or on new characters that are actually good from the start?

You mean like how he rehabilitated the entire Sonic cast from Sonic Team’s trashy characterization in the games for years? Or how people have been saying for a while, in this very topic, that they want to see what Ian could do better with Infinite knowing he was poorly written in the games (like everyone else)?

Your question was already answered way before you even asked it.

Rehabilitation isn’t a waste of time as long as something good comes out of it—I can’t see how that’s a legitimate question in any context. Not everyone here is a pessimist.

And given how there are people out there that can actually make trash into works of art, I think that says a lot about someone’s creativity.

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I am not too surprised by this revelation, but I think there's a good chance Infinite is only off the table for the time being. As it currently stands, he's only had one game appearance, and said game did very little justice. The character is still shrouded in a fair degree of mystery and it's unclear what truly happened to him. I think his appearing in a comic is premature, likely because there are further plans for him in future games. It just wouldn't make sense to scrap the character this soon with all the hype he generated and whatnot, and I don't really see any signs of SEGA scrapping him. On the contrary, they allowed Infinite to be used in the upcoming Battle Racers board game, they recently released a mini action figure of him and Zavok, and he's even a spirit in SSBU. They went out of their way to have one of the DangerKids on a past stream, seemingly dropping hints about a potential Infinite return, lest I'm just reading into things. He got a Sonic Channel wallpaper and a pin on the SEGA shop US. That all seems like an excess amount of promotion for a character they're ready to ditch. 

Just as Omega was once off-limits and no longer is, same could be said for Infinite. The ban is not necessarily forever. It just doesn't make sense for him to debut in the comics just yet because of the unclarity of his whereabouts.  It sucks that he can't be used in the comics yet, but it doesn't mean we've seen the last of Infinite in the games. 

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Honestly, the annoying part of these bans just come off as arbitrary on top of Ian’s track record of writing the characters far better than the games.

I know there was a clause on dead characters being unavailable, but I’d also be more inclined to believe that Sega/Sonic Team knows he makes them look incompetent with their own creations and don’t want him to really show it by taking one of their worst examples off the table.

But you’re right, it doesn’t mean forever when others like Cream, Emerl, and Omega were in the same boat.

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Flynn said that he would like to use all game locations, but he obviously can't because SEGA complicates it too much (dividing everything into human and animal world doesnt help).

He can't even name the locations, Final Egg is in mystic ruins which is in "human world".

There will be little to no worldbuilding unless SEGA changes its policies.

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Flynn said that he would like to use all game locations, but he obviously can't because SEGA complicates it too much (dividing everything into human and animal world doesnt help).

He can't even name the locations, Final Egg is in mystic ruins which is in "human world".

There will be little to no worldbuilding unless SEGA changes its policies.

That is misinformation. Ian didn't name places because he chose not to name them because he didn't feel they were important enough. He says so in one of his Bumblekast episodes.

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