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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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2 minutes ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Well, it makes sense especially with this little nugget from the last Japanese Sonic X episode where Eggman compliments Rouge's bosom.

tumblr_n4rdlrd39a1r3fk98o5_500.png

Well damn, Eggman. Things you never thought you'd hear from him.

I mean, I knew about that moment, but that's not the phrasing I remember. Though it's worth noting the sense that he was distracting Rouge from her quesstion.

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4 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

90% of what he posted is related to the games.

Its not... he brings up a bunch of comics, characters that didn't exists, and cartoons. Along with not even talking context to anything he's saying. " Knuckles song had stuff in it " Ok, but at the end of the day in game and in any game after that, nothing happens and the primary interaction between those characters is " I don't trust the bat " to the degree in which the writer of this very comic doesn't believe that relationship is a thing.

Or how sonic talking to a woman is flirting. Or some weird harem score counting thing he's doing that's creepy.

So, no. No its not.

And again I'm done with this, his response was wild creepy. And you can die on that hill if you want to

 

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48 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Where does this line of thought come from?

Sonic is represented as a total horn-dog in most mediums and even in the games he doesn't exactly shy away from flirty banter with Rouge. In Black Knight, he got pretty friendly with Nimue rather quickly. Plus, he was developed with a legit girlfriend in mind on three separate occasions; two that got left on the cutting room floor (Madonna and Tiara) and anther that should have (Elise). Then there is Vela-Nova. Outside the games he's had enough flings and sucked face with enough girls to build a decent sized harem. The list is enormous. Outside of Amy, Sonic has never put distance between himself and the opposite sex. Its usually the opposite.

Yeah I don't really get this either. There's plenty of evidence both in games and other media that Sonic is willing to get with the ladies. Adding to Black Knight he was also kind flirty with Percival "I guess you could say Whim is my other master".

But for some reason this idea that Sonic is completely Asexual is rampant. Not that there's anything wrong with being Ace just I don't really get where this idea is coming from. 

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21 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

What does this have to do with anything? That's not a flirty line...

It's def not read as one even regarding the line that comes after it.

He said it after saving her, she blushed and Caliburn even reacted to it as a flirty moment with "Please save the hugs and kisses for later."

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1, Eggman's bio didn't mention anything about women at all. Not womanising, not feminism, nothing. The localisation just threw it in at random. A better point would be how he has to have macked up somewhere along the line for Eggman Nega to exist, being his descendent and all. 

2. A lot of scenes have an issue where the read in the West is not the same as the intended read with Japanese values. Sonaze's popularity in the West is solely dictated by moments that the Japanese don't read as romantic and is instead read as being shows of Sonic helping Blaze through her introverted-ness (ala what he's doing with Whisper in the comic now), hence why Sonaze basically doesn't exist there. In a similar fashion outside the games (and perhaps a point that I may be dug into for), barely anyone in Japan reads Vecnilla as a serious ship because not only is dynamic not lend itself to romantic reciprocation (I mean, it's basically Bowser/Peach but without the whole kidnapping stuff...mostly), the Chaotix in the original version are treated way, way less seriously than the dub, to the point that they're more like actors playing parts with how deeply they break the fourth wall. Not only is that quality lost in the dub, the West has a lot more sympathy towards that dynamic in general. I mean, this is all moot since none of the Chaotix have ever shown romantic inclination anywhere in the games (aka the thing that matters), but eh. 

3. There's also the fact I'm pretty sure the games have actually walked back on 99% of the potential romance that was there in the post-2010 era. Sonic's interactions with women have had any hint of flirting just eliminated outright, Amy's crush has been dialled down massively in terms of how it affects her actions, and anything between Knuckles and Rouge has just straight up gone to the point I don't think the games even consider it a potential ship any more. In that light, IDW not going into that reflects the games perfectly. 

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7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The rap themes for Knux's stages in SA2 repeatedly drive home that Rouge is Sexy and is loaded with double-speak about what he would do to her when he catches her.

 

Eww... this line of rap was inappropriate and the whole rap sucks 

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I tend to do these from time to time. It's a little hobby of mine for editing some stuff among, art and mocking up upcoming Sonic comic covers are a thing I'd like to try and do whenever it is possible before official uploading when motivation kicks in. 15's place holder was one I attempted to do and even if it's not the cleanest from what I've done, it's the best I could create and edit so I'm not sure how it is for anyone's view.

dlOXQhN.png

 

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14 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, apparently, it was supposed to be womanizer.

Oh. That makes a lot more sense.

But either way - feminist or womanizer - my point still stands. Can't think girls are icky with either of those mindsets.

 

14 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The response from @Sega DogTagz is creepy and there's a lot of stuff to unpack with that. And i'm going to choose not touch that. Along with, not really listening to what I said .

Sorry my reprisal of Sonic's actual history got too hot and heavy for you.  lol.

What kind of response were you expecting? The only girl Sonic has ever avoided was Amy. He is pretty much a chick magnet outside of her and that aspect of his personality has been fairly consistent across all mediums to boot.

If talking about Sonic's attraction to the opposite sex is enough to make you uncomfortable - feel free to ignore it... but that kinda proves my point. If the Main characters thoguht girls were Icky, there would be nothing to be uncomfortable about. 

9 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

3. There's also the fact I'm pretty sure the games have actually walked back on 99% of the potential romance that was there in the post-2010 era. Sonic's interactions with women have had any hint of flirting just eliminated outright, Amy's crush has been dialled down massively in terms of how it affects her actions, and anything between Knuckles and Rouge has just straight up gone to the point I don't think the games even consider it a potential ship any more. In that light, IDW not going into that reflects the games perfectly. 

They walked back Amy - mainly because of how out of hand she got in the lead up to 2010 but you can really chalk up the rest to circumstance. I guess that bit is up for interpretation, but I imagine that was a move done to refocus her character - rather than an overall move to remove potential romance. Amy is still always introduced as his love-struck hopeful girlfriend after-all. That's not going to change.

Post 2010 we've had Generations - a game where each side character had maybe 3 speaking likes each. Lost World where the cast was stripped all the way down and Forces where the situation was admittedly much more dire from the get-go. A good deal of the space for character interaction and all those ship-tease's and what not went right out the window with the narrative real estate. We don't see as much as we did before because we are not getting the sheer amount of interactions we had in the 2000-2010 time gap. Everything has been paired down. The boom sub-franchise took the last few handheld slots (which were always prime text and character interaction heavy real estate) so the usual fallback hasn't been there either.

 

7 hours ago, Gumbit said:

Eww... this line of rap was inappropriate and the whole rap sucks 

Blasphemy

Knux raps carry the entire game.

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30 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Sorry my reprisal of Sonic's actual history got too hot and heavy for you.  lol.

What kind of response were you expecting? The only girl Sonic has ever avoided was Amy. He is pretty much a chick magnet outside of her and that aspect of his personality has been fairly consistent across all mediums to boot.

If talking about Sonic's attraction to the opposite sex is enough to make you uncomfortable - feel free to ignore it... but that kinda proves my point. If the Main characters thoguht girls were Icky, there would be nothing to be uncomfortable about. 

 

You missed the entire point, still wrong and are being creepier... Good job. You did it.

You know maybe with introspection one could back and suggest how i'm talking about this in weird score keeping fashion, and describing this fiction character as a " horn dog " might be weird and not even intentional by the people who made the character and maybe  you are imparting far more shit onto the character than was intended.

This is ontop of, as I stated before, a bunch of examples you used aren't from games , some relationships and things as mentioned above weren't meant to be interpreted how you are interpreted in that way. Things that lead fucking no where and just strait up just came up with an excuse of them not doing any of that shipping stuff. 

But I mean hey man, if you wanna be creepy about a fictional character's " score " by all means, derive your worth there. I'm gonna bow out of this one, you can die on that creepy hill man

 

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3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Really bad. Could easily go toe to toe with Battle for worst representation of the character.

Really now?

Like, I know a number of the characters(excluding maybe Jet, oddly enough) was jackasses in that game, but still.

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

You missed the entire point, still wrong and are being creepier... Good job. You did it.

 

And you make no attempt to stand by you point after you threw it out there. Just keep hiding behind your squeamishness at the idea of Sonic even considering leaning in on a girl.

I brought examples and proof to the party while you've provided nothing but audible illness over my position - and I'm still wrong? Yeah, no.

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Really now?

Like, I know a number of the characters(excluding maybe Jet, oddly enough) was jackasses in that game, but still.

Probably the best way to describe it right there. Free Riders got out of hand.

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Just now, Sega DogTagz said:

And you make no attempt to stand by you point after you threw it out there. Just keep hiding behind your squeamishness at the idea of Sonic even considering leaning in on a girl.

I brought examples and proof to the party while you've provided nothing but audible illness over my position - and I'm still wrong? Yeah, no.

 

You brought misinterpretations of dialog , Examples from cartoons and  comics that are not representative of the core product , and a general score keeping creepiness. As mentioned above, it speaks to the point that the comic that is way closer to the games , has no relationships in it right now whatsoever

And I think it speaks to how little you have , when you keep saying all mediums. All mediums doesn't matter, mediums have different interpretations and at the end of the day what happens in the games matters because that's what is pushing this brand forward. If we were to go by shit that happened in comics, tails would be a fucking creeper, or shadow would be an android. That shit ain't relevant to the core product and what happens in the game.

And your game examples were

....lines from knuckles raps that went nowhere and meant nothing because his interactions with rouge are " I do not trust her " and have never not been that

and

....Lines that weren't meant to be interpreted as flirting

Yep.... Sonic is a " Horndog " alright ( That was fucking gross to say )

But I mean yeah sure man, die on this hill

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I believe Sonic and Amy would have a date  if they were a little bit older , currently they are kids and not ready for serious romance , and some immature behaviors  are expected from them , they are not fully mature .

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You brought misinterpretations of dialog ,

Which as previously noted can be interpreted either way and still prove my point

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Examples from cartoons and  comics that are not representative of the core product ,

If eight out of ten most major representations of Sonic are all over the fairer sex at all times... what does that say about the core product?

and that still ignores the fact that within the core product, Sonic has been given a legit girlfriend in the planning stages on three separate occasions. That is a recurring theme from within the core product.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

and a general score keeping creepiness. As mentioned above, it speaks to the point that the comic that is way closer to the games , has no relationships in it right now whatsoever

Even if you restrict the conversation to the games, you still have plenty to deal with. The games current status quo doesn't erase the intent with Elise, or the prospect of Madonna or Tiara. The current state of the games doesn't unwrite his willingness to stoop to Rouge's level when he talks to her nor does it undo any of the Blatant shipteases between characters like Knuckles and Rouge which were very much shoved in your face repeatedly for a few year there. It doesn't erase the fact that Eggman has a gggg-grandkid.

Just because they have taken a backseat right now is not free range to ignore them. If that's what the name of this game was, we should consider Tails a coward instead of insisting he return to his SA1 prove it mentality or we should Forget the Master Emerald even exists because we havin't seen it in two games.

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And I think it speaks to how little you have , when you keep saying all mediums. All mediums doesn't matter, mediums have different interpretations and at the end of the day what happens in the games matters because that's what is pushing this brand forward.

And I will happily throw the full on tidal wave of supporting material from other mediums behind it because it reinforces my point. I'm not using Archie Canon or something else to prove my point here- that would be stupid and backwards. But I think its clear as day to see how many of them come to the same conclusions about Sonic's core cast as a derivative of the core concept - particularly so with Sonic.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

....lines from knuckles raps that went nowhere and meant nothing because his interactions with rouge are " I do not trust her " and have never not been that

If you can honestly say that Sega never ShipTeased Knuckles and Rouge with a straight face I'll eat my hat.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But I mean yeah sure man, die on this hill 

If I die on this hill my flag will be flying over it uncontested because you have still offered ZERO evidence to back up why you feel the core main cast of Sonic dudes thinks girls are Icky. All you are doing is dancing around the semantics. Defend your point or let the hill go.

 

17 minutes ago, Gumbit said:

I believe Sonic and Amy would have a date  if they were a little bit older , currently they are kids and not ready for serious romance , and some immature behaviors  are expected from them , they are not fully mature .

Sonic and Amy supposedly had a date planned in Black Knight... Sonic just became preoccupied with getting sucked into Camalot.

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32 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Which as previously noted can be interpreted either way and still prove my point

I don't think that's how that works... but ok.

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If eight out of ten most major representations of Sonic are all over the fairer sex at all times... what does that say about the core product?

That sonic had poor product management for years and this is the first time in forever they are making side products more reflective of how they want the core product to be and this is the company that famously let the archie sonic get super bad and weird and creepy before finally reigning it in, rebooting it and relocating it.

 

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and that still ignores the fact that within the core product, Sonic has been given a legit girlfriend in the planning stages on three separate occasions. That is a recurring theme from within the core product.

A lot of stuff happens in planning stages that doesn't happen in game. And while you can derive what the dev was trying to do, what is representative of the product is what is put out into the world. in sonic 06 it was planned to make fun of blaze's flat chest.That doesn't mean making fun of how women look is a core theme of a product, its an idea they had ,they scrapped. Same thing with mephilies, they keep trying to bring him back, is mephilies a core theme of the product? Nah, just an idea

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Even if you restrict the conversation to the games, you still have plenty to deal with. The games current status quo doesn't erase the intent with Elise, or the prospect of Madonna or Tiara.

Two of those characters don't exist and the other one was found super jarring by a lot of people when it was happening and is responsible for one of the worst moments in one of the worst sonic games in the history of the brand. Even when you suggest elise could be an animal a great deal of people found their entire exchange weird and didn't want that type of romance in a sonic game.

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The current state of the games doesn't unwrite his willingness to stoop to Rouge's level when he talks to her nor does it undo any of the Blatant shipteases between characters like Knuckles and Rouge which were very much shoved in your face repeatedly for a few year there. It doesn't erase the fact that Eggman has a gggg-grandkid.

Outside of the end of Sa2 there's kinda nothing , to the degree in which Ian Flynn the guy who writes this comic doesn't even support it. Rouge Flirts with knuckles, she flirts with everyone. Except shadow, who is the one she just strait has a line that basically be interpreted as " I love you " . Which would be a better example to use, but you chose " Girls that didn't exist " And " Rouge flirting with everyone as she is one to do " . And that sonic thing can be interpreted as banter rather than anything else

I'm thinking up better examples, arguing your point.

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Just because they have taken a backseat right now is not free range to ignore them. If that's what the name of this game was, we should consider Tails a coward instead of insisting he return to his SA1 prove it mentality or we should Forget the Master Emerald even exists because we havin't seen it in two games.

They never really had a front seat, they were never important in the games or much of anything. Jokes at best,

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And I will happily throw the full on tidal wave of supporting material from other mediums behind it because it reinforces my point. I'm not using Archie Canon or something else to prove my point here- that would be stupid and backwards. But I think its clear as day to see how many of them come to the same conclusions about Sonic's core cast as a derivative of the core concept - particularly so with Sonic.

Or they have bad takes that aren't reflective of the core product and sega never cared to enforce it so they leaned off of some of those previous bad takes and it built on itself. And the new thing that is watched like  a hawk and is more reflective of the core product has none of that. Weird huh

Its actually thing that happens pretty often, a lot of folks with just awful batman takes. And keep having awful batman takes. Particularly misinterpreting the Dark Knight , it doesn't really speak to anything except for the people making the product. Sometimes folks just keep having the same bad takes

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If you can honestly say that Sega never ShipTeased Knuckles and Rouge with a straight face I'll eat my hat.

They ever Ship Teased Knuckles and Rouge, they use it as joke fodder long with rouge flirting in general. Except Sa2 , but right after that... that died.

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If I die on this hill my flag will be flying over it uncontested because you have still offered ZERO evidence to back up why you feel the core main cast of Sonic dudes thinks girls are Icky. All you are doing is dancing around the semantics. Defend your point or let the hill go.

 

So you misinterpreted something i said and instead of asking what I meant you got wild offended at the idea of sonic not flirting with all the ladies.

Sonic Dudes do not literally think girls are icky. However a lot of time in game they are literally running away from them, denying their advances , or not really responded at all. Sort of " I don't got time for this I have to go do action " . The core fanbase the sonic brand tries to treach is young boys  ( Despite girls and women being a large if not more of the audience , but that's another discussion for another time ) , so my statement wasn't about sonic, knuckles tails , vector, shadow whoever thinks girls are icky. I can see scenarios where they try and flirt with girls, or at least try to get romantic with them even shadow's anti social ass.  But my point was that the people running the brand think that's what young boys think because sonic is a series primarily for children. So sonic characters interactions are sometimes reflective of that. Not that they themselves think that girls are icky.

It seems as though you instead of just asking me what I meant by that line and we having this other argument about branding and what sega thinks about its audience. You got wild offended at the notion that I do no think that a character for children in a pretty romance neutral series is a " horndog "  and decided to make an argument over a page or so that made you look wild creepy.

So congratulations.

You do it, I don't know what you did. But it was done

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I would argue that Sonic's luck with the ladies is a very western invention, it seems in the Japanese media Sonic is deff a more free spirited character that doesn't mind romance or a girl flirting with him, he just loves adventure and the freedom to go where he wants more. Japanese-Sonic also seems to play it a lot more cool, and I understand why fans prefer that.

1: Sonic OVA: Sonic only helps out the president after Princess Sarah kindly ask him to, Sonic accepts and just looks away and plays it cool

2: Sonic X, Sonic mostly runs away from Amy but there are deff times where he showed her affection (episode 52's ending) he just doesn't want to do that all of the time but doesn't mind doing it if it stops making Amy cry.

3: Sonic 06, Elise is quite taken by him but again Sonic plays it cool with her.

I think its beter for Sonic to be this way with girls then the chickmagnet the 90's was trying to make him. Also the older archie comic books really left me with a bad  taste in my mouth, him getting into an relationship with a girl that he knows his best friend is crushing on and whom he hardly was shown interacting with, kissing Bunnie while dating Fiona at the same time, flirting with Amy at times because Sally was with someone else. (also Amy's like 8 years old in the comics Yikes.) and the comic was pretty much hinting he was curious about getting into an relationship with Mina Mongoose as rebound  not too long after Sally broke up with him)

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Two of those characters don't exist and the other one was found super jarring by a lot of people when it was happening and is responsible for one of the worst moments in one of the worst sonic games in the history of the brand. Even when you suggest elise could be an animal a great deal of people found their entire exchange weird and didn't want that type of romance in a sonic game.

How it was received isn't in question here. I never tried to argue that it was well done or that it was well received.

Point is, there is romance there. Free and clear.

 

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Outside of the end of Sa2 there's kinda nothing , to the degree in which Ian Flynn the guy who writes this comic doesn't even support it. Rouge Flirts with knuckles, she flirts with everyone. Except shadow, who is the one she just strait has a line that basically be interpreted as " I love you " . Which would be a better example to use, but you chose " Girls that didn't exist " And " Rouge flirting with everyone as she is one to do " . And that sonic thing can be interpreted as banter rather than anything else

Rouge flirts with everyone, but few characters send the lingo back in her direction. Sonic usually does. Worth pointing out.

 

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They never really had a front seat, they were never important in the games or much of anything. Jokes at best, things for fanboys like you to misinterpret and use it as a means to count " score"

I'm a fanboy now? Because I'm pointing things out?

And you say I'm counting score like I'm digging for it. I'd much rather that score be a lot lower when all we get out of it are characters like Elise.

 

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They ever Ship Teased Knuckles and Rouge, they use it as joke fodder long with rouge flirting in general. Except Sa2 , but right after that... that died.

So they didn't ship tease except when they did?

Whatever. You are clearly agreeing with me here. Even if you feel they moved on, you've just conceded that there was shipteasing in (at the very least) SA2 - but then you go out of your way to label the lyrics of Knux's theme songs as flimsy evidence even though we both see that there there is shipteasing in that same game.  What?

 

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Sonic Dudes do not literally think girls are icky.

Thats all I wanted. Why was that so hard?

 

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It seems as though you instead of just asking me what I meant by that line and we having this other argument about branding and what sega thinks about its audience.

Literally my first and last statements in my first response to you were variations of what do you mean by that. I book-ended my post with that exact question.
 

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Where does this line of thought come from?

....

Icky? Can't say I see that.

 

I did ask you what you meant by that. I couldn't have been much clearer.

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