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Dejimon11

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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30 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Sorry my reprisal of Sonic's actual history got too hot and heavy for you.  lol.

What kind of response were you expecting? The only girl Sonic has ever avoided was Amy. He is pretty much a chick magnet outside of her and that aspect of his personality has been fairly consistent across all mediums to boot.

If talking about Sonic's attraction to the opposite sex is enough to make you uncomfortable - feel free to ignore it... but that kinda proves my point. If the Main characters thoguht girls were Icky, there would be nothing to be uncomfortable about. 

 

You missed the entire point, still wrong and are being creepier... Good job. You did it.

You know maybe with introspection one could back and suggest how i'm talking about this in weird score keeping fashion, and describing this fiction character as a " horn dog " might be weird and not even intentional by the people who made the character and maybe  you are imparting far more shit onto the character than was intended.

This is ontop of, as I stated before, a bunch of examples you used aren't from games , some relationships and things as mentioned above weren't meant to be interpreted how you are interpreted in that way. Things that lead fucking no where and just strait up just came up with an excuse of them not doing any of that shipping stuff. 

But I mean hey man, if you wanna be creepy about a fictional character's " score " by all means, derive your worth there. I'm gonna bow out of this one, you can die on that creepy hill man

 

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3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Really bad. Could easily go toe to toe with Battle for worst representation of the character.

Really now?

Like, I know a number of the characters(excluding maybe Jet, oddly enough) was jackasses in that game, but still.

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

You missed the entire point, still wrong and are being creepier... Good job. You did it.

 

And you make no attempt to stand by you point after you threw it out there. Just keep hiding behind your squeamishness at the idea of Sonic even considering leaning in on a girl.

I brought examples and proof to the party while you've provided nothing but audible illness over my position - and I'm still wrong? Yeah, no.

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Really now?

Like, I know a number of the characters(excluding maybe Jet, oddly enough) was jackasses in that game, but still.

Probably the best way to describe it right there. Free Riders got out of hand.

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Just now, Sega DogTagz said:

And you make no attempt to stand by you point after you threw it out there. Just keep hiding behind your squeamishness at the idea of Sonic even considering leaning in on a girl.

I brought examples and proof to the party while you've provided nothing but audible illness over my position - and I'm still wrong? Yeah, no.

 

You brought misinterpretations of dialog , Examples from cartoons and  comics that are not representative of the core product , and a general score keeping creepiness. As mentioned above, it speaks to the point that the comic that is way closer to the games , has no relationships in it right now whatsoever

And I think it speaks to how little you have , when you keep saying all mediums. All mediums doesn't matter, mediums have different interpretations and at the end of the day what happens in the games matters because that's what is pushing this brand forward. If we were to go by shit that happened in comics, tails would be a fucking creeper, or shadow would be an android. That shit ain't relevant to the core product and what happens in the game.

And your game examples were

....lines from knuckles raps that went nowhere and meant nothing because his interactions with rouge are " I do not trust her " and have never not been that

and

....Lines that weren't meant to be interpreted as flirting

Yep.... Sonic is a " Horndog " alright ( That was fucking gross to say )

But I mean yeah sure man, die on this hill

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I believe Sonic and Amy would have a date  if they were a little bit older , currently they are kids and not ready for serious romance , and some immature behaviors  are expected from them , they are not fully mature .

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You brought misinterpretations of dialog ,

Which as previously noted can be interpreted either way and still prove my point

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Examples from cartoons and  comics that are not representative of the core product ,

If eight out of ten most major representations of Sonic are all over the fairer sex at all times... what does that say about the core product?

and that still ignores the fact that within the core product, Sonic has been given a legit girlfriend in the planning stages on three separate occasions. That is a recurring theme from within the core product.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

and a general score keeping creepiness. As mentioned above, it speaks to the point that the comic that is way closer to the games , has no relationships in it right now whatsoever

Even if you restrict the conversation to the games, you still have plenty to deal with. The games current status quo doesn't erase the intent with Elise, or the prospect of Madonna or Tiara. The current state of the games doesn't unwrite his willingness to stoop to Rouge's level when he talks to her nor does it undo any of the Blatant shipteases between characters like Knuckles and Rouge which were very much shoved in your face repeatedly for a few year there. It doesn't erase the fact that Eggman has a gggg-grandkid.

Just because they have taken a backseat right now is not free range to ignore them. If that's what the name of this game was, we should consider Tails a coward instead of insisting he return to his SA1 prove it mentality or we should Forget the Master Emerald even exists because we havin't seen it in two games.

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And I think it speaks to how little you have , when you keep saying all mediums. All mediums doesn't matter, mediums have different interpretations and at the end of the day what happens in the games matters because that's what is pushing this brand forward.

And I will happily throw the full on tidal wave of supporting material from other mediums behind it because it reinforces my point. I'm not using Archie Canon or something else to prove my point here- that would be stupid and backwards. But I think its clear as day to see how many of them come to the same conclusions about Sonic's core cast as a derivative of the core concept - particularly so with Sonic.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

....lines from knuckles raps that went nowhere and meant nothing because his interactions with rouge are " I do not trust her " and have never not been that

If you can honestly say that Sega never ShipTeased Knuckles and Rouge with a straight face I'll eat my hat.

 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But I mean yeah sure man, die on this hill 

If I die on this hill my flag will be flying over it uncontested because you have still offered ZERO evidence to back up why you feel the core main cast of Sonic dudes thinks girls are Icky. All you are doing is dancing around the semantics. Defend your point or let the hill go.

 

17 minutes ago, Gumbit said:

I believe Sonic and Amy would have a date  if they were a little bit older , currently they are kids and not ready for serious romance , and some immature behaviors  are expected from them , they are not fully mature .

Sonic and Amy supposedly had a date planned in Black Knight... Sonic just became preoccupied with getting sucked into Camalot.

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32 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Which as previously noted can be interpreted either way and still prove my point

I don't think that's how that works... but ok.

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If eight out of ten most major representations of Sonic are all over the fairer sex at all times... what does that say about the core product?

That sonic had poor product management for years and this is the first time in forever they are making side products more reflective of how they want the core product to be and this is the company that famously let the archie sonic get super bad and weird and creepy before finally reigning it in, rebooting it and relocating it.

 

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and that still ignores the fact that within the core product, Sonic has been given a legit girlfriend in the planning stages on three separate occasions. That is a recurring theme from within the core product.

A lot of stuff happens in planning stages that doesn't happen in game. And while you can derive what the dev was trying to do, what is representative of the product is what is put out into the world. in sonic 06 it was planned to make fun of blaze's flat chest.That doesn't mean making fun of how women look is a core theme of a product, its an idea they had ,they scrapped. Same thing with mephilies, they keep trying to bring him back, is mephilies a core theme of the product? Nah, just an idea

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Even if you restrict the conversation to the games, you still have plenty to deal with. The games current status quo doesn't erase the intent with Elise, or the prospect of Madonna or Tiara.

Two of those characters don't exist and the other one was found super jarring by a lot of people when it was happening and is responsible for one of the worst moments in one of the worst sonic games in the history of the brand. Even when you suggest elise could be an animal a great deal of people found their entire exchange weird and didn't want that type of romance in a sonic game.

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The current state of the games doesn't unwrite his willingness to stoop to Rouge's level when he talks to her nor does it undo any of the Blatant shipteases between characters like Knuckles and Rouge which were very much shoved in your face repeatedly for a few year there. It doesn't erase the fact that Eggman has a gggg-grandkid.

Outside of the end of Sa2 there's kinda nothing , to the degree in which Ian Flynn the guy who writes this comic doesn't even support it. Rouge Flirts with knuckles, she flirts with everyone. Except shadow, who is the one she just strait has a line that basically be interpreted as " I love you " . Which would be a better example to use, but you chose " Girls that didn't exist " And " Rouge flirting with everyone as she is one to do " . And that sonic thing can be interpreted as banter rather than anything else

I'm thinking up better examples, arguing your point.

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Just because they have taken a backseat right now is not free range to ignore them. If that's what the name of this game was, we should consider Tails a coward instead of insisting he return to his SA1 prove it mentality or we should Forget the Master Emerald even exists because we havin't seen it in two games.

They never really had a front seat, they were never important in the games or much of anything. Jokes at best,

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And I will happily throw the full on tidal wave of supporting material from other mediums behind it because it reinforces my point. I'm not using Archie Canon or something else to prove my point here- that would be stupid and backwards. But I think its clear as day to see how many of them come to the same conclusions about Sonic's core cast as a derivative of the core concept - particularly so with Sonic.

Or they have bad takes that aren't reflective of the core product and sega never cared to enforce it so they leaned off of some of those previous bad takes and it built on itself. And the new thing that is watched like  a hawk and is more reflective of the core product has none of that. Weird huh

Its actually thing that happens pretty often, a lot of folks with just awful batman takes. And keep having awful batman takes. Particularly misinterpreting the Dark Knight , it doesn't really speak to anything except for the people making the product. Sometimes folks just keep having the same bad takes

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If you can honestly say that Sega never ShipTeased Knuckles and Rouge with a straight face I'll eat my hat.

They ever Ship Teased Knuckles and Rouge, they use it as joke fodder long with rouge flirting in general. Except Sa2 , but right after that... that died.

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If I die on this hill my flag will be flying over it uncontested because you have still offered ZERO evidence to back up why you feel the core main cast of Sonic dudes thinks girls are Icky. All you are doing is dancing around the semantics. Defend your point or let the hill go.

 

So you misinterpreted something i said and instead of asking what I meant you got wild offended at the idea of sonic not flirting with all the ladies.

Sonic Dudes do not literally think girls are icky. However a lot of time in game they are literally running away from them, denying their advances , or not really responded at all. Sort of " I don't got time for this I have to go do action " . The core fanbase the sonic brand tries to treach is young boys  ( Despite girls and women being a large if not more of the audience , but that's another discussion for another time ) , so my statement wasn't about sonic, knuckles tails , vector, shadow whoever thinks girls are icky. I can see scenarios where they try and flirt with girls, or at least try to get romantic with them even shadow's anti social ass.  But my point was that the people running the brand think that's what young boys think because sonic is a series primarily for children. So sonic characters interactions are sometimes reflective of that. Not that they themselves think that girls are icky.

It seems as though you instead of just asking me what I meant by that line and we having this other argument about branding and what sega thinks about its audience. You got wild offended at the notion that I do no think that a character for children in a pretty romance neutral series is a " horndog "  and decided to make an argument over a page or so that made you look wild creepy.

So congratulations.

You do it, I don't know what you did. But it was done

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I would argue that Sonic's luck with the ladies is a very western invention, it seems in the Japanese media Sonic is deff a more free spirited character that doesn't mind romance or a girl flirting with him, he just loves adventure and the freedom to go where he wants more. Japanese-Sonic also seems to play it a lot more cool, and I understand why fans prefer that.

1: Sonic OVA: Sonic only helps out the president after Princess Sarah kindly ask him to, Sonic accepts and just looks away and plays it cool

2: Sonic X, Sonic mostly runs away from Amy but there are deff times where he showed her affection (episode 52's ending) he just doesn't want to do that all of the time but doesn't mind doing it if it stops making Amy cry.

3: Sonic 06, Elise is quite taken by him but again Sonic plays it cool with her.

I think its beter for Sonic to be this way with girls then the chickmagnet the 90's was trying to make him. Also the older archie comic books really left me with a bad  taste in my mouth, him getting into an relationship with a girl that he knows his best friend is crushing on and whom he hardly was shown interacting with, kissing Bunnie while dating Fiona at the same time, flirting with Amy at times because Sally was with someone else. (also Amy's like 8 years old in the comics Yikes.) and the comic was pretty much hinting he was curious about getting into an relationship with Mina Mongoose as rebound  not too long after Sally broke up with him)

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Two of those characters don't exist and the other one was found super jarring by a lot of people when it was happening and is responsible for one of the worst moments in one of the worst sonic games in the history of the brand. Even when you suggest elise could be an animal a great deal of people found their entire exchange weird and didn't want that type of romance in a sonic game.

How it was received isn't in question here. I never tried to argue that it was well done or that it was well received.

Point is, there is romance there. Free and clear.

 

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Outside of the end of Sa2 there's kinda nothing , to the degree in which Ian Flynn the guy who writes this comic doesn't even support it. Rouge Flirts with knuckles, she flirts with everyone. Except shadow, who is the one she just strait has a line that basically be interpreted as " I love you " . Which would be a better example to use, but you chose " Girls that didn't exist " And " Rouge flirting with everyone as she is one to do " . And that sonic thing can be interpreted as banter rather than anything else

Rouge flirts with everyone, but few characters send the lingo back in her direction. Sonic usually does. Worth pointing out.

 

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They never really had a front seat, they were never important in the games or much of anything. Jokes at best, things for fanboys like you to misinterpret and use it as a means to count " score"

I'm a fanboy now? Because I'm pointing things out?

And you say I'm counting score like I'm digging for it. I'd much rather that score be a lot lower when all we get out of it are characters like Elise.

 

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They ever Ship Teased Knuckles and Rouge, they use it as joke fodder long with rouge flirting in general. Except Sa2 , but right after that... that died.

So they didn't ship tease except when they did?

Whatever. You are clearly agreeing with me here. Even if you feel they moved on, you've just conceded that there was shipteasing in (at the very least) SA2 - but then you go out of your way to label the lyrics of Knux's theme songs as flimsy evidence even though we both see that there there is shipteasing in that same game.  What?

 

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Sonic Dudes do not literally think girls are icky.

Thats all I wanted. Why was that so hard?

 

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It seems as though you instead of just asking me what I meant by that line and we having this other argument about branding and what sega thinks about its audience.

Literally my first and last statements in my first response to you were variations of what do you mean by that. I book-ended my post with that exact question.
 

Quote

 

Where does this line of thought come from?

....

Icky? Can't say I see that.

 

I did ask you what you meant by that. I couldn't have been much clearer.

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2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Thats all I wanted. Why was that so hard?

 

Literally my first and last statements in my first response to you were variations of what do you mean by that. I book-ended my post with that exact question.
 

I did ask you what you meant by that. I couldn't have been much clearer.

If had said only that, I would have given you a different answer, there was a bunch of other creepier rhetoric before that

That said i'm done, we have gotten to the phase where you try and convert what i'm saying into agreeing with you when it clearly isn't. So uh... yeah i'm done. Believe whatever you want man I don't care.

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

If had said only that, I would have given you a different answer, there was a bunch of other creepier rhetoric before that

That said i'm done, we have gotten to the phase where you try and convert what i'm saying into agreeing with you when it clearly isn't. So uh... yeah i'm done. Believe whatever you want man I don't care.

I don't care if you agree with me or not, I just wanted to know how you could justify your original statement. You've since retracted that - so I've got my answer. Nothin' left to discuss here. Everything else doesn't matter.

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I feel like Sonic doesn't need romance at at, and even Sonic himself doesn't need to care at all about that. Is unneeded in this series, I think friendship only is something way more in line in what I want from Sonic.

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This series doesn't need to overstep into romance due the ages of 90% of the cast and the pressing consequences of the world being on the verge of collapse every other Tuesday. Pairing up isn't ad shouldn't be a priority for these kids. 

That being said, these are characters and I would expect them to act as such. In the same breath as I would state that I wouldn't expect Sonic to slow down and look for a girlfriend - I would also say that I would expect him to ruberneck if he was walking down the street and a pretty girl walked by. He's 15. I'm honestly surprised we don't have a perpetual running gag of him doing that and running into a wall.

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8 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

This series doesn't need to overstep into romance due the ages of 90% of the cast and the pressing consequences of the world being on the verge of collapse every other Tuesday. Pairing up isn't ad shouldn't be a priority for these kids. 

That being said, these are characters and I would expect them to act as such. In the same breath as I would state that I wouldn't expect Sonic to slow down and look for a girlfriend - I would also say that I would expect him to ruberneck if he was walking down the street and a pretty girl walked by. He's 15. I'm honestly surprised we don't have a perpetual running gag of him doing that and running into a wall.

Maybe he doesn't have to be interested in girls like that, and that's ok.

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54 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Outside of the end of Sa2 there's kinda nothing , to the degree in which Ian Flynn the guy who writes this comic doesn't even support it.

 

100% agree with Ian

 

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Not every 15 year old boy is crazy for girls (straight or otherwise). It's one thing to say that's what you think Sonic as an individual would do based on different media (even if that argument can be debated too), it's another (really off) thing to say that he should act like that just because of his age

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Yeah. I didn't act like that at that age. I don't even act like that now. I'm not interested in relationships, period. 

There's not a whole lot to read into when it comes to the way Sonic treats the woman of this series. The reason it stands out way more in the Archie comics is because that's clearly the intention. Maybe the games have been subtle with or two things here and there but not enough for it to stand out or be pushed as a serious argument that Sonic's a horn dog. 

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I would expect sonic to react in a manner consistent with how he has been conceptualized since his creation reinforced by the fact that he is 15. (i.e. not even remotely close to looking for a relationship)

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You missed the entire point, still wrong and are being creepier... Good job. You did it.

You know maybe with introspection one could back and suggest how i'm talking about this in weird score keeping fashion, and describing this fiction character as a " horn dog " might be weird and not even intentional by the people who made the character and maybe  you are imparting far more shit onto the character than was intended.

This is ontop of, as I stated before, a bunch of examples you used aren't from games , some relationships and things as mentioned above weren't meant to be interpreted how you are interpreted in that way. Things that lead fucking no where and just strait up just came up with an excuse of them not doing any of that shipping stuff. 

But I mean hey man, if you wanna be creepy about a fictional character's " score " by all means, derive your worth there. I'm gonna bow out of this one, you can die on that creepy hill man

 

While I kinda agree with their overall point that there's something canon or just media evidence of Sonic being attracted to women I don't really follow the "Horn Dog" thing either. I don't think he's like bedding every girl who crosses his path or anything just that I don't get where this celibate Sonic thing comes from. 

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tails would be a fucking creeper, or shadow would be an android. 

Tails would be a creeper...because he crushed on an older girl? Also Shadow isn't an Android in Archie so I have no idea what you're talking about. 

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3 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

While I kinda agree with their overall point that there's something canon or just media evidence of Sonic being attracted to women I don't really follow the "Horn Dog" thing either. I don't think he's like bedding every girl who crosses his path or anything just that I don't get where this celibate Sonic thing comes from. 

Tails would be a creeper...because he crushed on an older girl? Also Shadow isn't an Android in Archie so I have no idea what you're talking about. 

Tails would be a creeper because he felt like he was obligated to fiona because he liked her and kind of stalked her and harassed her and fought people about a girl who made it clear he wasn't interested in him. Also no one saying anyone is celibate,  but that sonic and a lot of other guy characters don't really show much in way of interest in regards to relationships because they are often busy with action in regards to the main series. And because of that, they might not be that interested in girls they are interested in other stuff. And also, you thinking that the suggestion that sonic characters generally don't seem to care too much about relationships is somehow a vow of celibacy is also a problem? And they could just not be that interested and that's it and ok.

As for the android thing that's a reference to sonic X where its a heavy implication that shadow is an android and eggman could just produce another shadow

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Tails would be a creeper because he felt like he was obligated to fiona because he liked her and kind of stalked her and harassed her and fought people about a girl who made it clear he wasn't interested in him.

He fought Sonic because he felt betrayed by his best friend. Everyone only remembers the "Is that why you dated Fiona" line but not his speech after that he doesn't care that she didn't like him or went with Scourge. He was mad that his best friend, his brother, did that to him.

It's one of the only times Tails has ever felt like an actual kid. Sonic wasn't trying to hurt him but from his point of view someone he really looked up too hurt him deeply. 

I have...controversial opinions on House of Cards. Mostly that I actually like it. 

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17 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

He fought Sonic because he felt betrayed by his best friend. Everyone only remembers the "Is that why you dated Fiona" line but not his speech after that he doesn't care that she didn't like him or went with Scourge. He was mad that his best friend, his brother, did that to him.

It's one of the only times Tails has ever felt like an actual kid. Sonic wasn't trying to hurt him but from his point of view someone he really looked up too hurt him deeply. 

I have...controversial opinions on House of Cards. Mostly that I actually like it. 

There's also the fact that his parents were rebelling against the Kingdom structure at the time and Sonic said that Tails would just understand keeping his old man and possibly his mom locked up.

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27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 but that sonic and a lot of other guy characters don't really show much in way of interest in regards to relationships because they are often busy with action in regards to the main series. And because of that, they might not be that interested in girls they are interested in other stuff.

This kinda unfair to female characters , loving guys that would never love them back . If the shipping will stay one-sided  , then I would rather not include any romance  at all .

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