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Dejimon11

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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That being said, he does bring up a good point. Amy is very blatantly being written as a stand in for Sally being the leader of a large group like this. Not that its a bad thing mind you, because I do feel Amy would very much be interested in helping people around world and would have no qualms about leading people to do so. Just because her main trait is loving Sonic doesn't mean she isn't allowed to do anything else. That's not how dynamic characterization works.

I think people are too caught up in what these characters "shouldn't" do instead of what they can do. I mean...how is Amy supposed to be written if what Ian is doing is "wrong".

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Amy's role as a leader figure makes sense on several levels. For one, her natural empathy and compassion wouldn't allow her to just walk away like other characters (*cough*Sonic*cough*) and she easily has the tenacity and stick-to-it-tiveness to see tougher more complex jobs all the way through.

Furthermore, Forces and the start of the comic has established Sonic and his friends as inspirations and idols to the masses, and Amy is the single most accessible member of the core cast. Knuckles is isolated on his island, Sonic is always god knows where and Tails stays busy with his science work. If the masses were to turn to someone to lead them, Amy would probably be the first name on their realistically achievable list.

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11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I think people are too caught up in what these characters "shouldn't" do instead of what they can do.

This mindset is why that little back n forth even happened.

These character's base traits are so simple that there are very natural extensions that can be added to them without feeling OOC.

Amy's Role so far is fine, it fits the character. This restoration project being her idea specifically is good, it IS what she "should" do.

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Not to mention that there can be more than one type of leader. So, not really seeing Amy as a stand in for Sally.

It should also be noted that Sally’s leadership involved political diplomacy, whereas we can probably assume that Eggman wiped out any other political authority during the war that such is rendered moot.

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4 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Not to mention that there can be more than one type of leader. So, not really seeing Amy as a stand in for Sally.

It should also be noted that Sally’s leadership involved political diplomacy, whereas we can probably assume that Eggman wiped out any other political authority during the war that such is rendered moot.

I mean in a general sense. Obviously they're different characters entirely, I'm just talking about the function of their role. 

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I won't lie, I've been very critical of IDW Sonic but I do admit that they've done a really great job with Amy and Shadow. This trend started with Sonic Lost World, and Sonic Forces set the tone well with that, but IDW Sonic has taken full advantage of this. Amy isn't there to only obsess over Sonic anymore and Shadow isn't there to hog all the glory. It has been quite an improvement!

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5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

I won't lie, I've been very critical of IDW Sonic but I do admit that they've done a really great job with Amy and Shadow. This trend started with Sonic Lost World, and Sonic Forces set the tone well with that, but IDW Sonic has taken full advantage of this. Amy isn't there to only obsess over Sonic anymore and Shadow isn't there to hog all the glory. It has been quite an improvement!

Amy not obsessing over sonic all the time is something Ian does regularly and I appreciate it, I find her interesting when sonic isn't really brought up. I think she would be a much more interesting if someday they dropped the sonic thing entirely... but I doubt that would happen

As for shadow, i've voiced a few criticism, but I have to ask... when he was he hogging the glory ever? They could never fit him into anything really in OG archie, and he lost a bunch of fights because of it. When the reboot happened and they were forced to fit him in... they gave him a bunch of stories by himself so he would specifically not do that. And in the games well... he hasn't really been in a lot of them for years so uh... whatcha talkin bout man

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Characters should never drop their OG traits, unless their OG traits is specifically what made them bad.

Amy's crush on Sonic didn't make her bad, it was just Flanderization that made it bad.

The thing to do then is when going for a fix or "re-railing" a character is to just sprinkle it back in.

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Characters should never drop their OG traits, unless their OG traits is specifically what made them bad.

Amy's crush on Sonic didn't make her bad, it was just Flanderization that made it bad.

The thing to do then is when going for a fix or "re-railing" a character is to just sprinkle it back in.

As a guy who reads comic books, I have experienced times where that happened ( especially a lot with women, LGBT, or minority characters who were written in pretty bad ways that get rebooted ) and they turn out fine. I think she could be a totally fine character if the sonic thing was a friendship at best and it was more inspiration if anything, or maybe not that much at all.As long as you do something cool with it, i'm down.

 

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You said those characters were written badly...or in bad ways.

That's different. Amy has been written badly.

Characters that can't work in their original portrayals actually need change. Maybe it's because they're written by people who don't really grasp what they're writing, maybe they're just bad in concept, maybe there were unfortunate implications...that's the worst it can get even with concepts that do work.

This doesn't apply to a lot of Sonic characters.

Character's traits get exaggerated extremely or they really play up the negative traits which is bad.

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Just now, StaticMania said:

Amy's crush on Sonic didn't make her bad, it was just Flanderization that made it bad.

This, basically. I don't mind the trait at all. It's just that there was that period in the lore of Sonic (mid to late 2000s) where they made it the only thing Amy could do. It's like...Amy's more than just a Sonic fangirl. Sure, it's one of her traits, probably the most well-known trait, but that doesn't mean it should be her only trait. It just got exaggerated all to hell and...yeesh.

Same with Shadow. There was that period when they would basically give him Sonic's role. He'd be the one saving the world. Thankfully, this didn't last as long. Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow's game made sense, but then Sonic 06 just gave me the feeling that this was overkill. It turned into an overused Sonic trope, similar to the whole "Eggman awakens godly monster, gets betrayed, godly monster gets defeated" trope that SEGA used a lot back then.

Fortunately, SEGA hasn't gone down that road anymore. Ever since Sonic Lost World (I don't count Colors and Generations because they had next to no presence in those games) Amy and Shadow has been well done in the lore of Sonic. And, like i said, the comics have basically taken advantage of this and really executed it well. IDW Sonic is easily the best I've seen main series Shadow and Amy written in years.

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29 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

 

Fortunately, SEGA hasn't gone down that road anymore. Ever since Sonic Lost World (I don't count Colors and Generations because they had next to no presence in those games) Amy and Shadow has been well done in the lore of Sonic. And, like i said, the comics have basically taken advantage of this and really executed it well. IDW Sonic is easily the best I've seen main series Shadow and Amy written in years.

So he's been used correctly by not being around

It seems as though you just hate shadow

Which is fine, just you know.... you can say that's its ok

Also edit: Shadow didn't really save the world that much

It was sa2

and his game with his name it

and he shares that in sonic 06.

It sounds like you upset that like... other people did shit and while I can't tell you how to ingest media, you sound like the type of guy who gets upset when " main character man " isn't doing stuff all the time... which seems incredibly boring. But hey , live your life

34 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

You said those characters were written badly...or in bad ways.

That's different. Amy has been written badly.

Characters that can't work in their original portrayals actually need change. Maybe it's because they're written by people who don't really grasp what they're writing, maybe they're just bad in concept, maybe there were unfortunate implications...that's the worst it can get even with concepts that do work.

This doesn't apply to a lot of Sonic characters.

Character's traits get exaggerated extremely or they really play up the negative traits which is bad.

Eh i sorta of dissagree. I think you can write random ass weird ass interpretations of characters as long as its clear its not supposed to be the same guy or its clear how they got there.

Example I don't hate sonic boom shadow because he's different, I don't like him because sonic boom shadow despite being a different guy is kinda supposed to be the same guy. If they would have had like a thing where it was clear he came up in a different way I would have been down. I'm totally ok with folks experimenting with different versions of characters, just make it clear.

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

So he's been used correctly by not being around

It seems as though you just hate shadow

Which is fine, just you know.... you can say that's its ok

Yes, that's totally what he said...completely. 

What type of conclusion is this? He says he prefers to not have Shadow upstaging Sonic and you interpret that as hating Shadow?

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yes, that's totally what he said...completely. 

What type of conclusion is this? He says he prefers to not have Shadow upstaging Sonic and you interpret that as hating Shadow?

Yeah, I think that is an easy conclusion to draw when you look at it from a larger view

As I edited above... shadow did this... uh in two games with sonic's name on it

Sonic adventure 2, and Sonic 06 and the latter is because his story was better not because it was intentioned by the story , because sonic gets to do a bunch of shit in that story and literally kisses the girl as weird as that was.

I feel like if that's enough for you to go " WHOAH WHOAH " that's too much the game about him, and a game where that doesn't happen. And then you say " He's better now " and now is him not being in video games. Its very clear you don't like that character

Which is fine, just don't bullshit and pretend its some change in quality. You don't like shadow and you are happy he's not around as much, just say that

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Yeah, I think that is an easy conclusion to draw when you look at it from a larger view

As I edited above... shadow did this... uh in two games with sonic's name on it

Sonic adventure 2, and Sonic 06 and the latter is because his story was better not because it was intentioned by the story , because sonic gets to do a bunch of shit in that story and literally kisses the girl as weird as that was.

I feel like if that's enough for you to go " WHOAH WHOAH " that's too much the game about him, and a game where that doesn't happen. And then you say " He's better now " and now is him not being in video games. Its very clear you don't like that character

Which is fine, just don't bullshit and pretend its some change in quality. You don't like shadow and you are happy he's not around as much, just say that

Sonic's story literally does not matter. 

Meanwhile, Shadow's is the one with the most connections to the plot.

 

Its not really unjustified to feel Sonic got short changed a bit. Rather than just going "YOU JUST HATE SHADOW MAAAAN" 

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic's story literally does not matter. 

 

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Meanwhile, Shadow's is the one with the most connections to the plot.

That's up to interpretation? I mean for me, I think shadow did all the cool shit but there were probably others who don't think that, heck I know there are others that don't think that . That's the glory of stories with different perspectives , what's important is up to the person interpreting it.

 

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Its not really unjustified to feel Sonic got short changed a bit. 

I mean I guess but given the myriad of games where that doesn't happen, some in the same time period where that did not happen. It feels like that person just doesn't like shadow being around... which is totally fine. Just why beat around the bush will bullshit, just not like the character.

I don't like silver, if silver isn't around i'm gonna pretend its a triumph of writing and they are being written better, I just don't like them being around.

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8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That's up to interpretation?

It's not. Sonic's Story is saving the princess over and over. Shadow's story is actually learning about what's going on.

What happens with Sonic and the Princess literally doesn't matter until the Last Story where he dies and everyone's happy.

And if the game was well written, this wouldn't matter as much, because then the type of relationship that Sonic and the Princess could've had would be all that's necessary to care about on that front, since that's what it was meant to be about.

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

That's up to interpretation? I mean for me, I think shadow did all the cool shit but there were probably others who don't think that, heck I know there are others that don't think that . That's the glory of stories with different perspectives , what's important is up to the person interpreting it.

 

I mean I guess but given the myriad of games where that doesn't happen, some in the same time period where that did not happen. It feels like that person just doesn't like shadow being around... which is totally fine. Just why beat around the bush will bullshit, just not like the character.

I don't like silver, if silver isn't around i'm gonna pretend its a triumph of writing and they are being written better, I just don't like them being around.

No its not. Sonic does not interact at all with Mephiles, he never learns of his plans or even of his existence, and his story is more focused on Elise than anything else. 

Meanwhile; Shadow is presented as Mephiles` primary enemy, and Shadow is the primary one trying to stop what he's doing and is the one who informs Silver of such.

This is not something anybody made up, this is all stuff that actually happened in the game. 

 

Can you please...stop trying to make this out to be some Anti-Shadow campaign any time somebody criticizes how he's used? Because hey...not everybody is going to like it when he's presented as being wholly superior to the guy that's supposed to be the protagonist. Crazy concept I know, but that's the magic of opinions, not everybody has the same one. 

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9 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

No its not. Sonic does not interact at all with Mephiles, he never learns of his plans or even of his existence, and his story is more focused on Elise than anything else. 

Meanwhile; Shadow is presented as Mephiles` primary enemy, and Shadow is the primary one trying to stop what he's doing and is the one who informs Silver of such.

This is not something anybody made up, this is all stuff that actually happened in the game. 

Sonic's story wasn't about that, and if you don't really care about that part and care about the sonic story part, you can choose for that to be your main route. Infact that whole thing can be interpeted as a subplot

Quote

 

Can you please...stop trying to make this out to be some Anti-Shadow campaign any time somebody criticizes how he's used? Because hey...not everybody is going to like it when he's presented as being wholly superior to the guy that's supposed to be the protagonist. Crazy concept I know, but that's the magic of opinions, not everybody has the same one. 

The issue here is , the thing you are ignoring is, that happened in 1 game and despite you trying to argue the contrary only kind of in another game. So I can make that argument because that's... I dunno 1 and half times out of an entire catalog, I guess you could count shadow's game but that's his thing.  Regardless if you complaining about a thing that happened maybe 2 times....over a decade ago, and the character like most of the other characters is kind of gone and that's how the character is " Written better " . It would lead me to believe you just don't like that character.

Just say that. Seems like beating around the bush, there's no anti shadow campaign , just calling it what it is

Also

Quote

when he's presented as being wholly superior to the guy that's supposed to be the protagonist.

I think its a crazy concept, I think those people are bad fans of anything. Sometimes people are stronger than you, it happens. One of my favorite characters in history gets shown up all the time... it happens. If that basic tenant of life is that annoying to you, I think you are a bad fan with uninteresting opinions. Strait up

Didn't you say that you don't like sonic being dragonball Z?

Isn't the most dragonball Z shit is complaining about goku not winning every single fight.

Because that's what that reads to me like, and that shit sounds wild boring.

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic's story wasn't about that...

Yes it is. That's the whole point of Sonic and The Princess's interactions.

What is so hard to understand about this?

If you already are aware that it's just 1 game where this Shadow stuff happens, there's no reason to be so up in arms about someone calling it out. It's actually pointless.

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3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Yes it is. That's the whole point of Sonic and The Princess's interactions.

What is so hard to understand about this?

If you already are aware that it's just 1 game where this Shadow stuff happens, there's no reason to be so up in arms about someone calling it out. It's actually pointless.

No I mean shadow's story wasn't about the mephilies stuff, it was about something else.

And i'm not up in arms? I don't think this can be communicated over text, but I dunno i'm pretty casual about this?

Hey seems like the guy doesn't like shadow... why doesn't he just say that? I never said he was incorrect for not liking shadow. Heck I didn't even bring up about how I disagree about IDW shadow. Whether this person likes shadow or not... I don't care. That's why the whole " Anti-shadow " capping suggest made no sense to me. My point is , as you said yourself, if that does happen... it happens once. And your idea of being written better is... nonexistence, which leads me to believe you don't like that character.

Which is ok, just i dunno... say it

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16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic's story wasn't about that, and if you don't really care about that part and care about the sonic story part, you can choose for that to be your main route. Infact that whole thing can be interpeted as a subplot

The issue here is , the thing you are ignoring is, that happened in 1 game and despite you trying to argue the contrary only kind of in another game. So I can make that argument because that's... I dunno 1 and half times out of an entire catalog, I guess you could count shadow's game but that's his thing.  Regardless if you complaining about a thing that happened maybe 2 times....over a decade ago, and the character like most of the other characters is kind of gone and that's how the character is " Written better " . It would lead me to believe you just don't like that character.

Just say that. Seems like beating around the bush, there's no anti shadow campaign , just calling it what it is

Also

I think its a crazy concept, I think those people are bad fans of anything. Sometimes people are stronger than you, it happens. One of my favorite characters in history gets shown up all the time... it happens. If that basic tenant of life is that annoying to you, I think you are a bad fan with uninteresting opinions. Strait up

Didn't you say that you don't like sonic being dragonball Z?

Isn't the most dragonball Z shit is complaining about goku not winning every single fight.

Because that's what that reads to me like, and that shit sounds wild boring.

You're twisting this so hard into something else to justify your stance. This has nothing to do with people having their own interpretations of anything.

One person didn't like how Shadow was used in a few games and prefer how he is used in another.

And then somehow you interpret that into that person clearly hating Shadow and how his criticisms is just "something he interpreted" despite said person never stating such at all.

 

Your logic is incredibly flawed.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think this can be communicated over text, but I dunno i'm pretty casual about this?

It can be communicated quite clearly. You're being casual, but still responding and still making massive assumptions about people's stance on your favorite character.

10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

...which leads me to believe you don't like that character.

Since this is directed at me specifically, just so ya know I have said nothing about Shadow after saying his role is just figuring out what actually happens in the plot. It's pretty obvious from my "stance" on what a better story (for Sonic anyway) in that game would be that I don't actually care that Shadow shows up Sonic in terms of story relevance.

So this is yet another massive assumption.

 

 

 

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