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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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16 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Having Amy no longer crushing on Sonic and turning her in to book worm is the opposite of character development, I mean when did Amy ever find it fun to count box's in her spare time.

...When those boxes had Sonic Team's emblem on them?

 

41 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Everyone was bad in Free Riders. Really bad.

From what I remember skimming, Jet seemed pretty relaxed. Really, it was just Amy, Shadow, and Rouge that I remember being callous.

It's been a while.

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In Team Rose's cutscenes in Free Riders, Amy is pretty alright.

Her crush on Sonic seems to only be encased in wanting him to see her team win and that doesn't take up much dialogue.

I mean, I could check how she is in other team's cutcenes...but that's gonna be pretty boring.

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8 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

In Team Rose's cutscenes in Free Riders, Amy is pretty alright.

Her crush on Sonic seems to only be encased in wanting him to see her team win and that doesn't take up much dialogue.

She's pretty merciless to Vector for that entire story. When Team Babylon insults him, she follows up their zinger by also putting him down. That's not okay for the character that is supposed to be the compassionate one. How is that alright?

Furthermore, Amy's competitive fire for that entire game is stoked out of her desire for Sonic to see her win. Its no different than her boxersize affliction from Battle. Her over-the-top aggressiveness is a direct result to her infatuation with Sonic. In manifests all over her character and if left unchecked turns the positive qualities that Amy is loved for, into negative self-serving traits that undermine her core characters best potentials. Whenever priority-one-hedgehog-alert takes over as Amy's singular most defining characteristic, it bludgeons her ability to be anything other than callous and aggressive - even to her friends.

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3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

She's pretty merciless to Vector for that entire story. When Team Babylon insults him, she follows up their zinger by also putting him down. That's not okay for the character that is supposed to be the compassionate one. How is that alright?

It's possible for a character to be compassionate without being boundlessly so. And considering Cream's also on her team, it makes sense for them to not double up on that role.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Furthermore, Amy's competitive fire for that entire game is stoked out of her desire for Sonic to see her win.

A motivation derived from a previously established trait. Sounds reasonable enough to me. She's pretty intense about it, but it's not like she gets to the point of cornering him and starting a fight to force him to marry her or acting like a robot is their child.

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32 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

When Team Babylon insults him, she follows up their zinger by also putting him down. That's not okay for the character that is supposed to be the compassionate one. How is that alright?

That's literally the only time she puts him down in her scenes.

Though, I'm actually pretty okay with her being like that.

Being the compassionate one never really meant much with her after SA1.

In Sa1 she was proactive, Sa2 she was bratty, in Heroes and Battle she was aggressive and obsessive, in Shadow she was supportive (I guess), in Nex Gen she was just there, in Riders she was just there...I'd say outside of her crush she was more inconsistent than Knuckles honestly.

Her having an attitude like Sonic would be pretty fitting, seeing how even back then she was never really the "nice" one.

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10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's possible for a character to be compassionate without being boundlessly so. And considering Cream's also on her team, it makes sense for them to not double up on that role.

Nobody's saying she has to be a saint 24/7, but what she does in Free Riders sticks out like a stick in the mud. She quite literally calls one of her two team members a "Useless Little Kid" to his face - and that was following one of their wins. Thats uncalled for, and not in line with the character traits she puts on display when Sonic is not a part of the scenario.

And introducing a second nice character shouldn't throw Amy to the other end of the spectrum.

 

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A motivation derived from a previously established trait. Sounds reasonable enough to me. She's pretty intense about it, but it's not like she gets to the point of cornering him and starting a fight to force him to marry her or acting like a robot is their child.

Thats the problem. Time and time again, when that singular, primary established trait is "marry me Sonic" Amy sheds the character traits that make her most unique and valuable to the franchise in favor of a more aggressive and self-centered approach. Amy's best character moments came when she was the opposite of that. Selfless, compassionate, understanding. All three of those traits get throttled when her primary motivation driving her behavior is Sonic.

Remember when Amy was useful? Remember when she contributed to the story? Those things happened and were allowed to breathe because her love for Sonic took a back seat to other priorities. Sure it was still there, but not as the primary.

 

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's literally the only time she puts him down in her scenes.

No its not.

 

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Though, I'm actually pretty okay with her being like that.

Being the compassionate one never really meant much with her after SA1.

What? I'm pretty sure her compassion for Shadow technically saved the world in SA2.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

No its not.

I said her scenes, as in her story.

That's the only time it happens, if it happens in other stories...I wouldn't know.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What? I'm pretty sure her compassion for Shadow technically saved the world in SA2. 

I'm glad she was allowed to be even slightly useful, she is the best character after all.

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3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Nobody's saying she has to be a saint 24/7, but what she does in Free Riders sticks out like a stick in the mud. She quite literally calls one of her two team members a "Useless Little Kid" to his face - and that was following one of their wins. Thats uncalled for, and not in line with the character traits she puts on display when Sonic is not a part of the scenario.

And introducing a second nice character shouldn't throw Amy to the other end of the spectrum.

That line's likely a bit further than I'd go if I was writing for Amy but it's hardly throwing her to the other end of the spectrum.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Thats the problem. Time and time again, when that singular, primary established trait is "marry me Sonic" Amy sheds the character traits that make her most unique and valuable to the franchise in favor of a more aggressive and self-centered approach. Amy's best character moments came when she was the opposite of that. Selfless, compassionate, understanding. All three of those traits get throttled when her primary motivation driving her behavior is Sonic.

Remember when Amy was useful? Remember when she contributed to the story? Those things happened and were allowed to breathe because her love for Sonic took a back seat to other priorities. Sure it was still there, but not as the primary.

As I remember it there were times when she was able to do both. Her swooning over Sonic didn't stop her from helping the flicky in SA. But there's nobody for her to help in Free Riders, because it's a silly racing game with no real stakes. If she was just there to be nice and kind she'd be as boring as Cream.

I mean, look. I usually prefer my characters to be flawed weirdos and occasionally assholes. I'm obviously not against them being compassionate too but if that's all they've got they'll put me to sleep. "Amy drags two other characters into her whirlwind attempt to impress Sonic and doesn't particularly care about their feelings" is a story I can give a shit about. "Amy is very nice and uhh...there's racing I guess" is not.

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18 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I said her scenes, as in her story.

That's the only time it happens, if it happens in other stories...I wouldn't know.

Amy tries to throw Vec under the bus for making the team late despite only just hiring him to fill out Team Rose. Thats like the first cut-scene in their story - and she's riding him hard to fix the problem like its his fault. She spends no less than half of their interactions threatening him to get through to the finals. Thats all in her story.

 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

That line's likely a bit further than I'd go if I was writing for Amy but it's hardly throwing her to the other end of the spectrum.

But you agree that is too far for Amy. There was a line, and it got crossed.

 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

As I remember it there were times when she was able to do both. Her swooning over Sonic didn't stop her from helping the flicky in SA. But there's nobody for her to help in Free Riders, because it's a silly racing game with no real stakes. If she was just there to be nice and kind she'd be as boring as Cream.

Which is exactly where she needs to be. Her swooning in SA1 didn't stop her from getting the job done because it wasn't her primary motivating factor. As soon as that Flicky dropped on her head her #1 chief priority was to get that poor bird reunited with its family. Humping Sonic's leg got bumped back to the #2 Slot. When the blue blur showed up, she leveraged her primary priority into getting some attention from him, but it never consumed or overtook her goals. She was allowed to be compassionate and understanding when she needed to be to help Gamma. An Amy that was lovestruck and ewe eyed as a top priority wouldn't have been able to stand up to Sonic and stop him from smashing Gamma to bits. An Amy with an alternate priority could and did.

Amy can do both, but its clear that when Sonic is her top priority, we get a lesser result. In every game where Sonic is priority 1, Amy looses the character traits that make her a solid character capable of growth and contribution. SA1 is the perfect example of that.

 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, look. I usually prefer my characters to be flawed weirdos and occasionally assholes. I'm obviously not against them being compassionate too but if that's all they've got they'll put me to sleep. "Amy drags two other characters into her whirlwind attempt to impress Sonic and doesn't particularly care about their feelings" is a story I can give a shit about. "Amy is very nice and uhh...there's racing I guess" is not.

I don't like the idea of sacrificing a characters core values to shove them into a silly story. Sonic is as competitive as they come and you don't see him sacking his ideals just to throw down with Jet.

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13 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I don't like the idea of sacrificing a characters core values to shove them into a silly story. Sonic is as competitive as they come and you don't see him sacking his ideals just to throw down with Jet.

Fortunately for Sonic, a simple race never really comes down to his values about right and wrong.

What is this even suppose to be?

Quote

She spends no less than half of their interactions threatening him to get through to the finals. Thats all in her story.

She spends none of their interactions in her story threatening him, like at all.

Their entire shtick is just bickering.

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5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Fortunately for Sonic, a simple race never really comes down to his values about right and wrong.

What is this even suppose to be?

My point is that it wouldn't be okay for Sonic to start bad mouthing his pals win or lose. We all would complain about that and label it OOC. Amy should be held to the same standard. There is no way that it can be deemed appropriate for her to be that aggressive toward Vector.

 

If you have to change the character core to fit the silly story, then your doing it wrong. Design the silly stories around the core and you won't have to sacrifice characters to not being themselves for no reason. That cheapens the brand.

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1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If you have to change the character core to fit the silly story, then your doing it wrong.

It's a good thing they didn't change her, isn't it?

She's spent more time as an angry mood than as a nice girl.

It's also accurate to her only interaction with Vector before then.

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3 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Having Amy no longer crushing on Sonic and turning her in to book worm is the opposite of character development

Amy crushes on Sonic

Amy gets the Metal Virus by touching Sonic/coming in contact with Zombots

Amy turns into a Zombot

Sonic has to deal with fighting/avoiding her

Man, where have I heard this story before?

latest?cb=20150619224707

3 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

 I mean when did Amy ever find it fun to count box's in her spare time.

She doesn't. She literally asks herself why she's doing it in the first panel we see her in this issue.

The only reason why she's doing this is because she wants to help with the cleanup after the whole Metal Overload saga and now with the Metal Virus outbreak.

It's not like hitting things with hammers is a solution at the moment.

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7 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It's a good thing they didn't change her, isn't it?

She's spent more time as an angry mood than as a nice girl.

You just stated that Amy was as inconsistent as Knuckles. By your own logic there is nothing to conform to.

Which means it makes even less sense to not utilize the most effective version of the character.

7 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It's also accurate to her only interaction with Vector before then.

Amy's first encounter with Vector in Heroes was dismissive, not mean. So, no there was no grounds for her to be a jerk to him.

Furthermore, they worked together to save the world following that "only interaction" at the end of Heroes and again in Shth, so there really isn't a reason for her to be so salty towards him.

10 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Amy crushes on Sonic

Amy gets the Metal Virus by touching Sonic/coming in contact with Zombots

Amy turns into a Zombot

Sonic has to deal with fighting/avoiding her

Man, where have I heard this story before?

OoooOOOoooh

I doubt Flynn would want to re-tread on one of his own unfinished storylines... but I'd be down for that. Truthfully, my main interest would be to see how long Eggy would last before he dies of happiness via leveraging Amy against Sonic.

Unfortunately, the zombots don't look as menacing or cool as a full-on mecha, so I doubt a storyline like that could be propped up for too long.

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4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You just stated that Amy was as inconsistent as Knuckles.

Yes I did...

And it's the amount of time she spent like this was still longer than not, it doesn't make her not inconsistent.

Maybe they were going back and forth a lot, whatever.

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10 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Amy crushes on Sonic

Amy gets the Metal Virus by touching Sonic/coming in contact with Zombots

Amy turns into a Zombot

Sonic has to deal with fighting/avoiding her

Man, where have I heard this story before?

latest?cb=20150619224707

 

Let Zavok be the one to save Sonic from being a zombot then have him take out Eggman that would more interesting story it would also give a Amy change to think about Sonic again when he's a zombot. 

 

12 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

She doesn't. She literally asks herself why she's doing it in the first panel we see her in this issue.

The only reason why she's doing this is because she wants to help with the cleanup after the whole Metal Overload saga and now with the Metal Virus outbreak.

I was talking about these box's. But why Amy and not Tails if anything Amy not wanting to do this makes it worst and when Eggman gets stomped to the ground what is she going to do in the future paper work?

 

RCO016.jpg

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2 hours ago, Fire-N-Space said:

I was talking about these box's. But why Amy and not Tails if anything Amy not wanting to do this makes it worst and when Eggman gets stomped to the ground what is she going to do in the future paper work?

Everyone has to do paperwork eventually, that's just life. Just like being seen reading a book isn't inherently indicative of any kind of personality or behaviour, every once in a while you need information that's written in a book, that's just life. No job requires you doing that exact job 100% of the time, that's just simply not how it works. 

Addendum: Heck, I'll play by your rules. You consider Amy to be the real resistance leader, right? Well a resistance leader that never manages inventory or personal would result in a fairly crap resistance. Reading a book down the line seems like a very real necessity if it has either sets of those information. In attempt to complain about Amy not fighting all the time, you've inadvertently created an issue that would in fact make Amy objectively a worse character (because it would mean that she was someone who never did the bare essentials of maintaining a resistance movement), which is something you yourself obviously don't want.

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7 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Amy being mature and not being constantly "IGOTTAFUCKSONICIGOTTAFUCKSONIC" is character development because most people found her old Personality awful and her hateable as a result.

Thing is,we should have SEEN her develop(like with Shadow,Tails and Blaze) rather than having her changed out of the blue: see how she got there.

Like this is just a way to overglorify her.

Why not having Tails or Blaze in charge?

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10 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

She's pretty merciless to Vector for that entire story. When Team Babylon insults him, she follows up their zinger by also putting him down. That's not okay for the character that is supposed to be the compassionate one. How is that alright?

 

Amy not really seeing Vector in the best light is something that is somewhat understandable, partly due to there being precedent. So her chastising him for being late is understandable and not being impressed by his concern being on the prize money rather than the competition is also natural. 

But that sort of stuff does indeed veer too far, even as far as buttmonkey comic relief goes.

10 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's possible for a character to be compassionate without being boundlessly so. And considering Cream's also on her team, it makes sense for them to not double up on that role.

I can't really get behind that type of thinking when it comes to character writing.

There are plenty of examples of characters who share a trait or two.

10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

 

Her having an attitude like Sonic would be pretty fitting, seeing how even back then she was never really the "nice" one.

 

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

And introducing a second nice character shouldn't throw Amy to the other end of the spectrum.

 

 

I agree with both of these.

 

.

 

.

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

There are plenty of examples of characters who share a trait or two.

And usually whenever the characters are on screen together, other parts of their personality are played up so as not to make them too similar.

If not, it usually results in the other character being seen as unnecessary.

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9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

But you agree that is too far for Amy. There was a line, and it got crossed.

By like, a hair. I'm not agreeing that it's some hideous debasement of her character, just that it's one line I'd probably write differently. And if the alternative is never saying anything mean because she's supposed to be the nice one, I'd rather take Free Riders as it is.

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Amy can do both, but its clear that when Sonic is her top priority, we get a lesser result. In every game where Sonic is priority 1, Amy looses the character traits that make her a solid character capable of growth and contribution.

I just don't think this is fundamentally true. What about her protecting Sonic from Silver in '06? She's not malicious, she's not uncaring, she's just not going to let some dude kill a person she cares about because he thinks he's responsible for something bad, and while you might debate her reasoning, she's ultimately doing the right thing. The worth of a character trait like this is in how it's used.

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I don't like the idea of sacrificing a characters core values to shove them into a silly story. Sonic is as competitive as they come and you don't see him sacking his ideals just to throw down with Jet.

If a "core value" of Amy is being unflinchingly nice to everyone I'd sacrifice the whole damn character because, again, I find that boring. But I'm not saying they should completely do away with important parts of the characters, but that characters being multifaceted, with objectives and goals that ebb and flow and conflict with each other, is what makes them interesting. Amy generally being a nice person but having a blind spot for others when she's focused on Sonic is interesting, it's an opportunity for conflict and tension. Likewise Sonic being heroic but also impulsive and competitive opens up the possibility of him getting caught up in a rivalry when there's bigger things at stake, and that's more interesting than if he always makes the morally and logically correct choice.

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The only thing I don't really like about IDW Amy is that I don't think the role of the book keeper suits her. She always lived a comparatively relaxed life compared to some of the other characters but not to this degree. I can see Amy having an organizer role since she has had a way of getting through to people, but the girl was honestly also kind of airheaded and eager to get to the action more often than not so when I see her talking about paperwork and stuff I'm like eeehhhh. Wouldn't she get bored doing that? 

Admittedly most Sonic characters aren't very sharp anyway so I can't really think of someone better than her to take up that role, but I wonder if it's a role that needs filling in the first place.

 I don't have a reason to believe Ian completely misreads the character yet just thinking back to issue 2, but I have my nitpicks I guess. I don't mind her reigned in personality traits all that much. The art gets across some of her quirkiness even if it's not really coming through in the dialogue. 

 

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