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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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36 minutes ago, FFWF said:

But what are the Deadly Six?  They don't represent any real animal or thing, they don't even represent a pre-existing monster in human culture,

They're oni.

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like a good way to see if the D6 works is instead of grand plans, at least at first. 

 

You might be onto something else there, on top of the obvious.

Whether as a group or as individuals, one of the more notable appeals to having the Zeti around is essentially having a third/fourth, hectic side that could attack at any moment just because they can for the most part. This in turn could lead to any of them jumping into a relatively simple to grasp conflict to escalate things into a violent free for all or just showing up to antagonize Sonic and/or his friends in more self-contained stories.

7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:
Spoiler

 

Zavok and Zik could formulate a decent plan between them. I think those two would be the narrative focus of anything D6 related.

If it were me writing up a plot, I'd like to see the Deadly six put out a call for help to both Sonic and Eggman. Offering a truce to both sides and playing a proxy game where they could try to have both sides eliminate each other while they could be ready to swoop in and take advantage of the chaos. Zavok and two others could work with Eggman, looking to trap Sonic on Lost Hex and beat him, while Zik could take the other 2 and work with Sonic and Tails to fend off Eggman's latest incursion onto their homeland.

Even if Sonic and Tails knew they were walking into a trap, they really wouldn't be in a position to refuse.

At the end, you reunite the two groups of 3 for a final boss to the arc.

 

TSR showed that Zavok isn't above working with Eggman, and Zik is all about letting other people do the leg work. Seems like a good as place as any to drum up some plot points for the D6.

 

 

...Huh.... Well, it's one of the more intriguingly straightforward ideas thus far.

If I could make one suggestion though, I'd probably swap the team leaders. Not that those wouldn't work or couldn't use some work, but it'd vary things up and offer something more than the games have done thus far.

 

7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Zik is all about letting other people do the leg work. 

Um, is he?

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Well since they never interacted as a "group", you'd only be getting how they'd interact with the other characters.

The problem being that...if they actually had a group dynamic, this wouldn't be necessary. It'd happen naturally.

A common suggestion of fixing groups of characters is making them interact outside of their group...that's not fixing them as characters though. It just leads to getting rid of the characters who didn't work in a failed dynamic (why are they a group if they don't really interact).

I suppose you have a point. It can really go both ways with some of them, though..

To answer the last question though, it's possible they hadn't been operating together much as of late until Eggman showed up and bested Zavok.

43 minutes ago, FFWF said:

What bothers me about the Deadly Six's designs, personally, is that they aren't anything.  Yes, most of the characters have looked like plastic at one time or another, but we know that the main cast are all animals; we know that Eggman is a human, that other characters are robots; that Chaos is made of water, Iblis fire, and so on.  They're made of a substance we can recognise.  But what are the Deadly Six?  They don't represent any real animal or thing, they don't even represent a pre-existing monster in human culture, and so we don't know how to interpret their lack of texture... so they just look like plastic.  The same can be said about the Chao, but they're little toyetic mascot characters anyway so it doesn't matter.  It does matter when Zavok and pals look like giant plastic models.

 

They're Electromagnetic Kung-Fu Demo-Ogres. Well, at least Zavok and Zik are the second one anyway.

I see your point though.

33 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They're demon aliens...

 

 

I think a good place to start with the Deadly Six is actually giving them a goal to work towards beyond just antagonizing Sonic. 

I'll shit on Infinite all day, but you can at least understand why he does what he does; he's insecure and lords his power over everyone. Simple goal.

 

The Deadly Six just...exist; their goals kind of made sense when they wanted revenge on Eggman, but now they've just ignored that and now Zavok is just another attack dog for Eggman.

 

 

I would have preferred if they ran with them wanting revenge on Eggman, which would force Sonic and co to defend him. If they had focused specifically on them wanting justice for what Eggman did, they could have made pretty good anti-villains. 

That's another important factoid.

Or/and they could've also did a better job of justifying why some of them would want to fight Sonic in the first place, with any compromise being adequately justified or handwaved--which Zavok really wasn't as of late.

Zazz makes sense as a general thing and Master Zik & Zor both gradually take an interest for their thematic reasons, but it did start to occasionally bother me as to why Zavok specifically becomes so cruel towards him.

 

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1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They're demon aliens...

 

57 minutes ago, Razule said:

They're Oni.

 

57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They're oni.

 

44 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

They're Electromagnetic Kung-Fu Demo-Ogres.

Case in point, I'm afraid; and while they may be Oni in the Japanese script (and I could take issue with that amazingly broad brush, as well), in the west, they're Zeti - which is to say, they're nothing.

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6 minutes ago, FFWF said:

 

 

 

Case in point, I'm afraid; and while they may be Oni in the Japanese script (and I could take issue with that amazingly broad brush, as well), in the west, they're Zeti - which is to say, they're nothing.

To be fair, Chaos and the Chao are their own things without really being based on anything. Most of the other monsters, aliens, and deities are...well, those.

 

I suppose it'd be more direct to say that the Deadly Six--whether they're called Zeti, Oni, Demon-like beings, etc--being something isn't a problem, but rather that what those things are and what they mean in the context of the series is not really explained with a sufficient background or understanding.

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Why do you even need to know exactly what kind of monsters they are anyway.

This whole line of complaint seems pointless.

e: would your complaint actually be any different if they had explicitly called them oni? Or if they were called trolls or gremlins or grumpbutts or whatever?

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38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Why do you even need to know exactly what kind of monsters they are anyway.

This whole line of complaint seems pointless.

e: would your complaint actually be any different if they had explicitly called them oni? Or if they were called trolls or gremlins or grumpbutts or whatever?

 

8 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Horned Beasts.

Knowing what they are will be a good thing, they can't simply be monsters can they?

 

If I were to pinpoint it to anything, it's because they are also--and/or most importantly-- supposed to be characters.

If we're being strict here, we are told what they are--they are Zeti/Oni, demon-like beings that have the innate ability to manipulate magnetic field. We also know that Master Zik taught the current leader Zavok and later that he founded the group in the first place.

It's everything else that we don't know that either drives us up a wall or keeps others from being interested.

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I think the complaint could just end at them being shallow, then. There's this attempt to force the idea that there's something inherently wrong with them compared to the other bad Sonic villains when I don't think that's the case. They're just another group of not-so-inspired Sonic villains to add to the pile for me.

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5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think the complaint could just end at them being shallow, then. There's this attempt to force the idea that there's something inherently wrong with them compared to the other bad Sonic villains when I don't think that's the case. 

That too.

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Sega really likes demon aliens as an aesthetic. Huh....

Image result for zavok black doom

Oh shit...

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31 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think the complaint could just end at them being shallow, then. There's this attempt to force the idea that there's something inherently wrong with them compared to the other bad Sonic villains when I don't think that's the case. They're just another group of not-so-inspired Sonic villains to add to the pile for me.

I recall this was a general sentiment back in the 2000's, with people feeling the final boss monsters "didn't fit in Sonic". 

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Sonic has a thing with demon stuff in general.

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, Chaos and the Chao are their own things without really being based on anything. Most of the other monsters, aliens, and deities are...well, those.

 

I suppose it'd be more direct to say that the Deadly Six--whether they're called Zeti, Oni, Demon-like beings, etc--being something isn't a problem, but rather that what those things are and what they mean in the context of the series is not really explained with a sufficient background or understanding.

I think maybe the idea is that even that they are something different , on some level you get the thing they are inspired by unlike the zeti? I don't quite agree with that tough, if we only to point to the mascot himself. Sonic To be frank , kind of looks like a cat, Amy looks like a cat. Silver was supposed to be another animal entirely and they decided to just call him a hedgehog and make his neck fur white. Shadow looks like a demonic version of what sonic is ( wow sega....really likes demons ).

Obvious a lot more of the characters look closer than their real life counter parts than the others, but liberties can be taken.

I think my issue with them design wise , is not that they can't be idenitified, not that they look like they are made of rubber, or zavok is an obvious "not bowser " character. My issue with them is that they look like they are from another series, and to be fair its not there fault. Sonic in general has been moving slowly to a different art style , but its characters have not. So when they introduce new folks they look out of place sometimes. I personally think sonic and its characters are due for another " classic to modern " redesign to align them with more cartoony and sort of western inspired designs that they seem to be leaning towards nowadays.

 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Why do you even need to know exactly what kind of monsters they are anyway.

This whole line of complaint seems pointless.

e: would your complaint actually be any different if they had explicitly called them oni? Or if they were called trolls or gremlins or grumpbutts or whatever?

Considering that their nature as monsters was a side-point in my original post which was subsequently taken out of context?  No, of course not; the nature of their identity is merely a way of introducing the underlying problem.

Let's roll it back and take a look at my original complaint - in full, rather than cherry-picked:

3 hours ago, FFWF said:

But what are the Deadly Six?  They don't represent any real animal or thing, they don't even represent a pre-existing monster in human culture, and so we don't know how to interpret their lack of texture... so they just look like plastic.

Well, call them oni if it makes you feel better - but it doesn't make a jot of difference to my criticism of their texture, which was the ongoing topic of discussion.  Are they furry, scaly, is it just skin?  You cannot tell from their designs, which is why people read them as plastic; and that's an illustration of why their designs are flawed in the context of Sonic, because they relate to nothing.  Like their shallow and contextless Lost Hex with nothing unique about it, no effort was made to make them fit in with anything.  They could come from any series at all, but you wouldn't guess they came from Sonic.

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I just don't see why it matters. I don't expect these things to work like actual biological creatures because they're cartoon characters. I care about what the surface of a Zeti's body is made of as much as I care about whether the peach parts of Sonic are skin or fur. You were willing to give the chao a pass for arbitrary reasons so I don't know why it's so much more of a problem with these guys.

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Not sure if Flynn is able or even allowed to fix the Zeti, but I think he could try to introduce new Zeti characters as a placebo. Maybe since he can’t use Infinite, a Phantom Ruby-powered Zeti Character could be a replacement? 

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34 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I recall this was a general sentiment back in the 2000's, with people feeling the final boss monsters "didn't fit in Sonic". 

Looks like some things never change.

33 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow looks like a demonic version of what sonic is ( wow sega....really likes demons ).

 

Or your basic evil colors anyway.

33 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I think my issue with them design wise , is not that they can't be idenitified, not that they look like they are made of rubber, or zavok is an obvious "not bowser " character. My issue with them is that they look like they are from another series, and to be fair its not there fault. Sonic in general has been moving slowly to a different art style , but its characters have not. So when they introduce new folks they look out of place sometimes. I personally think sonic and its characters are due for another " classic to modern " redesign to align them with more cartoony and sort of western inspired designs that they seem to be leaning towards nowadays.

 

That is another excellent point.

Though wasn't at least Sonic's Dreamcast design supposed to be inspired by Graffiti art?

.

35 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I just don't see why it matters. I don't expect these things to work like actual biological creatures because they're cartoon characters. I care about what the surface of a Zeti's body is made of as much as I care about whether the peach parts of Sonic are skin or fur. You were willing to give the chao a pass for arbitrary reasons so I don't know why it's so much more of a problem with these guys.

I think it's obvious why some things get a pass but others don't from that perspective among others--the Chao have been around much longer and so we've had an abundance time & appearances to become accustomed to them if Adventure 1 wasn't enough. The Zeti on the other hand are still somewhat new and could really use more to them.

34 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Not sure if Flynn is able or even allowed to fix the Zeti, but I think he could try to introduce new Zeti characters as a placebo. Maybe since he can’t use Infinite, a Phantom Ruby-powered Zeti Character could be a replacement? 

The Phantom Ruby is kinda in tiny little pieces right now, so...

39 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Not sure if Flynn is able or even allowed to fix the Zeti, but I think he could try to introduce new Zeti characters as a placebo. 

That could be a roundabout way of it.-

Of course, there are other potential hurdles that might need to be jumped through.

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23 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Looks like some things never change.

 

Or your basic evil colors anyway.

That is another excellent point.

Though wasn't at least Sonic's Dreamcast design supposed to be inspired by Graffiti art?

 

Shadow's demonic allegories and design aspects are bit more pervasive than you may think, but sega's fondness of the angelic demonic dynamic is discussion for a another time

 

As for the bottom part, yeah, graffiti art, his the exaggeration of the limbs. Times have changed though and so has the sega art team, and I Think its time we go for a change. I think a lot of people will just complain about boom. But I think boom's idea of redesigning sonic for a new age isn't in itself a bad one and something that's need , it was just done poorly. I think a redesign moving the characters closer to the western cartoon image they seem to want, along with incorporating the more real shoe designs that is prevalent in forces in the comic would help to make new characters seem more at home. I feel like they don't have nothing to loose at this point, and whatever they come up with, i'm sure the sonic movie design has set the bar so low that experimentation can be taken.

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Just now, Wraith said:

IIRC Sonic Adventure 2 literally had angels and demons as a storytelling element but it got dropped at some point. Shadow's design and some other elements from the game are holdovers from that. 

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow's demonic allegories and design aspects are bit more pervasive than you may think, but sega's fondness of the angelic demonic dynamic is discussion for a another time

 

I was just thinking of the Hero and Dark Chao, now that you mention it.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

As for the bottom part, yeah, graffiti art, his the exaggeration of the limbs. Times have changed though and so has the sega art team, and I Think its time we go for a change. I think a lot of people will just complain about boom. But I think boom's idea of redesigning sonic for a new age isn't in itself a bad one and something that's need , it was just done poorly. I think a redesign moving the characters closer to the western cartoon image they seem to want, along with incorporating the more real shoe designs that is prevalent in forces in the comic would help to make new characters seem more at home. I feel like they don't have nothing to loose at this point, and whatever they come up with, i'm sure the sonic movie design has set the bar so low that experimentation can be taken.

Hm.

That makes some degree of sense. Not sure where the Zeti fall in that still, but yeah.

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52 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Looks like some things never change.

 

Or your basic evil colors anyway.

That is another excellent point.

Though wasn't at least Sonic's Dreamcast design supposed to be inspired by Graffiti art?

.

I think it's obvious why some things get a pass but others don't from that perspective among others--the Chao have been around much longer and so we've had an abundance time & appearances to become accustomed to them if Adventure 1 wasn't enough. The Zeti on the other hand are still somewhat new and could really use more to them.

The Phantom Ruby is kinda in tiny little pieces right now, so...

That could be a roundabout way of it.-

Of course, there are other potential hurdles that might need to be jumped through.

Oh right, we’ll have to see where Classic Eggman landed, now that we know he’s not Dodonpa...

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21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I was just thinking of the Hero and Dark Chao, now that you mention it.

Hm.

That makes some degree of sense. Not sure where the Zeti fall in that still, but yeah.

I would imagine they would feel more at home design wise  if we could redesign the characters closer to what seems to be the " Modern " sonic aesthetic. And possibly mage minor changes to their designs as well so and some others so we can get a sort of visual cohesiveness.  That was my overall point. I feel like sonic wants to move more in a pixar dreamworks type direction with its design and the characters are still stuck in robberhose mickey mouse by way of anime and grafitti. And the problem may more so lie in the characters of sonic and co not updating , rather than the deadly 6 themselves. That was my point more or less

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1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Oh right, we’ll have to see where Classic Eggman landed, now that we know he’s not Dodonpa...

...The fuck you say?! :confused:

52 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I would imagine they would feel more at home design wise  if we could redesign the characters closer to what seems to be the " Modern " sonic aesthetic. And possibly mage minor changes to their designs as well so and some others so we can get a sort of visual cohesiveness.  That was my overall point. I feel like sonic wants to move more in a pixar dreamworks type direction with its design and the characters are still stuck in robberhose mickey mouse by way of anime and grafitti. And the problem may more so lie in the characters of sonic and co not updating , rather than the deadly 6 themselves. That was my point more or less

Ah.

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36 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

...The fuck you say?! :confused:

Ah.

The ending to Mania Plus where Eggman’s sucked into a portal by the Phantom Ruby, taking the Ruby with him. 

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Just now, Miragnarok said:

The ending to Mania Plus where Eggman’s sucked into a portal by the Phantom Ruby, taking the Ruby with him. 

When is Mania Plus supposed to take place?

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