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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread


Dejimon11

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Its  like black dooms has. Shadow was immune.  Even with the virus on him I assume he thought he'd fight off

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its not even that it's out of character, it just makes Shadow look really stupid beyond the suspension of disbelief. 

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

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17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Thinking like this assumes that because a character has "developed" they're no longer capable of making mistakes. Shadow may have developed from when he was first introduced but he's still got a big ego and he's currently pissed at Sonic, the guy who told him to run if he gets infected, the guy who he blames for this whole mess for getting in his way with Eggman. It's natural enough that he'd keep following his gut and try to do things his way than let someone else tell him what to do when that went so wrong last time. It's the wrong choice, obviously, but it doesn't come from him being "dumb".

Of course he still has flaws,but there is a difference between "overconfident " and "idiot"! Shadow has learned to realize when he is wrong,so why was he so dumb here?

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

Yeah,but then he saw that he wasn't and he STILL refused to run

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

Almost every time Shadow acts, its lording how superior he is as the ultimate lifeform; it's just that his ego was balanced by whatever emotional conflict he was going through at the time (revenge for a loved one, an identity crisis, struggling with the fact that he'll be betrayed one day). Without that emotional conflict, he's just...an even more arrogant version of Sonic, which has been apparent since 2010. 

 

It's not a bad thing mind you; like I said, I like my characters flawed and being fallible. But it kind of has to make sense in a way that doesn't make them look foolish.

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20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Thinking like this assumes that because a character has "developed" they're no longer capable of making mistakes.

But he made a mistake, he thought due to who he was he was invulnerable. That's good fine mistake to make, that's a very shadow mistake.

The subsequent mistake is the issue, that's legit fucking stupid

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12 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That kind of stops being an excuse when he keeps fighting after he sees that he has been infected.

11 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

There is being overconfident (getting infected) and then there is being idiot who knows staying will kill infect him, but doing it anyway because... ego.

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

2 minutes ago, Redbluethunder5 said:

Shadow has learned to realize when he is wrong,so why was he so dumb here?

This is exactly the mindset I'm arguing against; a character doesn't just gain a perfect understanding of when they're wrong simply because they've grown as a character. They still have flaws, they still fall into old habits, they still make mistakes.

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12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

"I'm the coolest!"

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14 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Issue 19.

Ok, as always talking about Shadow started a fire. So before I add more gasoline, let's start with positives, especially one that everyone overlooked.

Artwork is GREAT.

I was worried that we're getting noob over Stanley, Skelly or Yardley, but those Zombots are way better than in last 2 issues. Yardely makes them look like imps or something, too lively, too mischievous. Lawrance made dumb but unstoppable threat. And in #18 there maybe 4 zombie per panel. Here were drowning in buggers. And as much as I love Herms coloring, Curry's dry pallet gives much better somber tone. This finally FEELS like a zombie apocalypse.

(Also Cream just lost her best friend, but she keeps updating her map. What a trooper.)

World building is still worse than Archie, but it's slooowly improving (I'm still waiting for not-generic-city location). Omega is still amazing, might be one of his best issues. Rouge... actually does very little, poor girl.

Ok, prepare marshmallows for bonfire, time to talk about Shadow. (Spoilers for  the ending, not that it matter by this point).

- Just like in previous issues Shadow is still badass. I actually hoped for a GUN truck to show-up and his fighting style is satisfyingly brutal.
- He's jerk to Sonic, but Sonic kiiiinda deserves it. And Shadow's angry, he probably doesn't really meant it. Rest of his dialogue is a little annoying, too much talking how great he is. And that's more 2010s Shadow, not pre-06. Shadow always has s somewhat of a ego, but till Free Riders he always balances it with some kind of emotional conflict (Maria, identity, human hatred, being a weapon, etc) and/or stoic focus on a job. Also, SHADOW CARES ABOUT PEOPLE. He promised Maria to give people chance to be happy! In Sonic Battle he claimed that all weapons (including him) should be destroyed so there can be peace! He doesn't show it, but he cares! Still, despite my little rant, dialogue isn't that bad.
- And then ENDING happens. Thanks to bloody spoilers I knew beforehand the twist, so I wondered how he will get infected. By protecting someone? He is known for heroic sacrifices. Or maybe Eggman will target him, since he's a too dangerous?

No! Shadow bare hugs the Idiot Ball like his life depends on it!

There is being overconfident (getting infected) and then there is being idiot who knows staying will kill infect him, but doing it anyway because... ego. Also Shadow ran few  times in the past (from police in SA2, Battle after getting hurt, Chronicles in his boss battle, Sir Lancelot during final act).

But what really annoys me is that IDW Shadow is absolute screwing up idiot ALL THE TIME.
Isuse 6 he tries to kill Tinker/fails to kill Tinker (pick which you think was a crime), issue 10 he powered up Metal, now this. I get that Flynn doesn't want to make Shadow invincible Mary Sue, but he tips the scale too much in other direction. It's just like early Archie when Shadow was punching bag for Scourge/Lara-Su/Adam/Enerjack/SuperScourge. Any of those defeats would been fine, in a row got a little grading.

PLEEEEASE Flynn, let Shadow do one badass thing, that won't be instantly undone by his ego.

And Eggman is what, a very fat naked mole rat?

You're overreacting. That would be more confusing that Two World thing.

See, I can take Issue 6, since it was an interesting ideological conflict between Sonic and Shadow. Issue 10 I can excuse because Shadow didn't know Metal would copy his data along with the Master Emerald's beforehand.

This is neither of those things, so it gets no pass.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

In the mindset of the character when characterized correctly he would have just bounced. Its out of character , its legit less " he should have done this " and now at the point where i'm questioning who the character i'm looking at is. 

I feel like the " Well you can know because you are the audience " downplays criticism and just dismisses the idea that the characterization could have actually been bad.

Quote

This is exactly the mindset I'm arguing against; a character doesn't just gain a perfect understanding of when they're wrong simply because they've grown as a character. They still have flaws, they still fall into old habits, they still make mistakes.

And they made a mistake, the 2nd mistake is the issue. And goes against not just development, but his whole character. That's an issue.

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This issue would have been more interesting of Shadow was forced to swallow his pride and take Sonic's advice for once. I wouldn't have minded if he got infected after that some other kind of way, but this level of hard-headed from a character used to crisis situations is kinda silly. 

 

I can see they're kinda having trouble with pacing again though so I'm gonna let it slide. As starved as I am for good Shadow content he's not our focus this arc so they just used him to escalate the wider conflict. Not in love with this issue but at least I get to watch Sonic and Shadow fight again next month.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

You're still ignoring the fact that Shadow knows he can just run to stave off the virus, Sonic told him this. 

You're ignoring the in-universe logic that's at play here. I know what the story is trying to do, its HOW it did it that I have an issue with.

 

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This issue would have been more interesting of Shadow was forced to swallow his pride and take Sonic's advice for once. I wouldn't have minded if he got infected after that some other kind of way, but this level of hard-headed from a character used to crisis situations is kinda silly. 

 

I can see they're kinda having trouble with pacing again though so I'm gonna let it slide. As starved as I am for good Shadow content he's not our focus this arc and they just needed to push things along. 

I kinda don't think him not being the focus is an excuse. Everyone else who was featured this storyline and the last one didn't look like this, this is just genuinely a bad representation of the character and there's no signs this will change if the focus was on him

And I would argue the sonic shadow fight is kinda pointless , because shadow isn't shadow. He's a weird metal zombie. He might as well be metal sonic at this point, because at least from  my perspective once you rob shadow of his personality ... there's nothing else there.

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I kinda don't think him not being the focus is an excuse. Everyone else who was featured this storyline and the last one didn't look like this, this is just genuinely a bad representation of the character and there's no signs this will change if the focus was on him

 

I haven't minded Shadow's characterization that much up until this point unlike you so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's lazy, but more care probably would have been taken in a Shadow focused story.

 

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Shadow getting infected is fine, having one of the strongest guys after the main character succumb raises the stakes a bit. I just would have preferred it done in a way that didn't make him look stupid, since it undercuts the drama more than a little bit.

 

It's not a dealbreaker for me, just something you roll your eyes at as you keep reading.

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's not a dealbreaker for me, just something you roll your eyes at as you keep reading.

I dunno for me , I don't really have any proof that shadow will be written any other way than this.  This is how he's been presented to be, and since he's my fav. I dunno It makes me want to put down the book, I would rather not indulge in something that craps on the thing I like every time it gets around to it. But that's just me. Maybe it will get better but for right now  , i'm kinda at the point where I think i'm just gonna read x men. That's good, that's new and good and treats the people in really cool

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

I dunno for me , I don't really have any proof that shadow will be written any other way than this.  This is how he's been presented to be, and since he's my fav. I dunno It makes me want to put down the book, I would rather not indulge in something that craps on the thing I like every time it gets around to it. But that's just me

You're literally the only one who hates how Shadow is written overall. His characterization has been for me. This is one instance I felt they dropped the ball, otherwise I don't agree with you.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're literally the only one who hates how Shadow is written overall. His characterization has been for me. This is one instance I felt they dropped the ball, otherwise I don't agree with you.

I think he's ok in...what issue 10. But i'm not " Ian Flynn writing shadow bad " was already around and a meme back in archie. I didn't agree with it then, though he's not doing a great job right now. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

See, I can take Issue 6, since it was an interesting ideological conflict between Sonic and Shadow. Issue 10 I can excuse because Shadow didn't know Metal would copy his data along with the Master Emerald's beforehand.

This is neither of those things, so it gets no pass.

I would forgive #10 it easier, if Shadow redeemed himself in anyway, like actually having significant role in defeating Metal.

But main main problem is frequency. 3 failures out of 3 appearances is a poor career.

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

What Kuzu said above, it's about subtleties that make Shadow's actions believable.

And don't use 'well, from your perspective it's simple argument on me. I'm usually on your side in those kind of discussions. "Total Eclipse" had Shadow and Knuckles being idiots, but I perfectly understood their motives, emotions and thinking process. Here Shadow is ignoring all logic, for rather petty reasons.

Also, I have dozen ideas how to improve script.

1) Shadow is blaming himself for all of this and refuses to 'stop fixing it'. Guilt clouds his judgment.
2) Shadow actually tries to run or teleport, but it's just to too late. He's capable of thinking, but his flaws still cause his downfall.
3) Even after getting infected Shadow believes his Ultimate-Lifeform healing system can stop this, but it doesn't work. Shadow picks a risky route based on belief in his own greatness, rather than hopeless route (not from my perspective, from his. he knows staying is game over) based on stubbornness.

And those are just options that require me to stick to the script. I would still prefer if Shadow did a heroic sacrifice.

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Anyway, the ending aside, the issue was fine. Nice to see someone calling Sonic out on how this was technically his fault.

 

The art is...passable. there was a weird shading on it that made things look paler, but it does fit the situation. And why is everyone slack-jawed all of a sudden.

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19 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're still ignoring the fact that Shadow knows he can just run to stave off the virus, Sonic told him this. 

You're ignoring the in-universe logic that's at play here. I know what the story is trying to do, its HOW it did it that I have an issue with.

You're ignoring that Shadow is pissed at Sonic and doesn't want to listen to anything he has to say because he sees Sonic as the one responsible for all this. Shadow's too caught up in his own bullshit to admit that he's wrong, that he's vulnerable, that he can't deal with this by himself.

1 minute ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

3) Even after getting infected Shadow believes his Ultimate-Lifeform healing system can stop this, but it doesn't work. Shadow picks a risky route based on belief in his own greatness, rather than hopeless route (not from my perspective, from his. he knows staying is game over) based on stubbornness.

How is this not basically what actually happened? And how would we not just get people saying he's stupid for thinking his ULF-ness would protect him when he's already infected?

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Anyway, the ending aside, the issue was fine. Nice to see someone calling Sonic out on how this was technically his fault.

Was it fully him, though?  He *convinced* Shadow not to do it, he still had Mr Tinker by the cuff at one point.  He knew Sonic had a point in drawing comparisons to Shadow's past and decided against killing him.  He could have just done it anyways.

I kinda don't like people saying it's all Sonic's fault since he did act within his own reasoning and he also didn't know at ALL what was going to happen.  It's completely unfair for Shadow to fully blame him for this, but I get that he's mad about the situation.

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Art was good aside from the mouths, what's up with that anyway? I kind of dig the sunset filter, lol.

Anyway, I really wanted to see some Team Dark dynamic, these comics always feel so short, it's why sometimes characters don't get enough badass moments, although Shadow got them, and we haven't seen yet how being a Zombot affected him. You are all acting as he's some dumbass victim (in the story and metaphorically for Ian's writing), he could not be? I'm not sure right now.

I agree about creating drama, but plot kind of needs him, you really wanted Shadow to act just like another hero? Do I have to remind you that it's Shadow who fuels plots all the time to get things interesting? And he also fuels endless debates over here :P

Besides, Flynn already did this all the time in Archie, in "Total Eclipse", remember how Shadow and Knuckles were dicks to each other for no reason? I do.

So if you want to stop reading the book as somebody said, give up on the comic, it's not a problem at all, if you really want to exploit the negatives and treat this arc like it sucks, because to me it's awesome, it honestly keeps getting better after the first issues of normality.

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6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're ignoring that Shadow is pissed at Sonic and doesn't want to listen to anything he has to say because he sees Sonic as the one responsible for all this. Shadow's too caught up in his own bullshit to admit that he's wrong, that he's vulnerable, that he can't deal with this by himself.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that the same person who's willing to work with Sonic regardless of the situation to save the world is also the same person who can't put his ego aside for the sake of self preservation, but whatever you seem to be ok with this.

Just saying there were just better ways they could have did this without making him look foolish.

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4 minutes ago, AphexPhreak said:

Was it fully him, though?  He *convinced* Shadow not to do it, he still had Mr Tinker by the cuff at one point.  He knew Sonic had a point in drawing comparisons to Shadow's past and decided against killing him.  He could have just done it anyways.

I kinda don't like people saying it's all Sonic's fault since he did act within his own reasoning and he also didn't know at ALL what was going to happen.  It's completely unfair for Shadow to fully blame him for this, but I get that he's mad about the situation.

I mean, I find it hard to blame Sonic for this, how was he meant to know that a evil Eggman fanboy who’s got hypnosis powers would suddenly appear to break Mr. Tinker and restore Eggman. Like yeah, technically if Sonic didn’t stop Shadow from murdering him, this wouldn’t have happened, but that’s just basically absolving Starline of his actions in this mess, despite the fact he’s the one who restored Eggman specifically for the purpose of having Eggman take over again.

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The art was legit fantastic.

 

1 minute ago, Tangled Jack said:

I agree about creating drama, but plot kind of needs him, you really wanted Shadow to act just like another hero? Do I have to remind you that it's Shadow who fuels plots all the time to get things interesting? And he also fuels endless debates over here :P

I dunno the plot was kinda interesting before that, this kinda took the wind out my sails so to speak.

1 minute ago, Tangled Jack said:

Besides, Flynn already did this all the time in Archie, in "Total Eclipse", remember how Shadow and Knuckles were dicks to each other for no reason? I do.

This difference there is , shadow was still shadow. There were conversations and interesting interactions with knuckles before and after the fight about why it was going. Those two ego's clashing is why the fight was interesting. Now that shadow's a zombie shadow has been effectively robbed of autonomy. And flynn could have thought of more interesting ways for the zombification to happen, it just feels like Flynn gave up.

1 minute ago, Tangled Jack said:

So if you want to stop reading the book as somebody said, give up on the comic, it's not a problem at all, if you really want to exploit the negatives and treat this arc like it sucks, because to me it's awesome, it honestly keeps getting better after the first issues of normality.

I don't feel like i'm exploiting negatives, this just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Its like what they did to captain america in secret empire before they ran that all the way back. Just left a really bad taste in my mouth

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