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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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1 minute ago, JosepHenry said:

A few pages ago I saw some people questioning if Ian hates Shadow...

.... Are you freaking kidding me? 

Did you guys forgot Sonic Universe? The thing that made Shadow 10 times more likable? Written by Ian Flynn?

I said that, that wasn't serious by the way. Its clear he doesn't care for him too much, but I don't think he hates him.

That said though you don't have to like or get a character to write them competently. And I have read plenty of good books by people who legit hate the character they are writing. You can actually get some genuinely interesting criticism sometimes when that happens. Or the thundercats reboot a while ago, that was really bad, but sometimes its pretty neat.

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19 minutes ago, Redbluethunder5 said:

Because Shadow is supposed to have matured and developed: he is not that dumb! As soon as he saw he was infected he would have runned!

Thinking like this assumes that because a character has "developed" they're no longer capable of making mistakes. Shadow may have developed from when he was first introduced but he's still got a big ego and he's currently pissed at Sonic, the guy who told him to run if he gets infected, the guy who he blames for this whole mess for getting in his way with Eggman. It's natural enough that he'd keep following his gut and try to do things his way than let someone else tell him what to do when that went so wrong last time. It's the wrong choice, obviously, but it doesn't come from him being "dumb".

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That kind of stops being an excuse when he keeps fighting after he sees that he has been infected.

 

I know what it was going for; overconfident lone wolf gets beaten. It's just done in a very stupid way here. If Shadow DIDN'T know he could be infected, then that's one thing, he'd just be reckless which is fine. But everyone basically told him what not to do, and he does the exact opposite of that and this is treated as a shocking thing.

Its not even that it's out of character, it just makes Shadow look really stupid beyond the suspension of disbelief.

 

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Issue 19.

Ok, as always talking about Shadow started a fire. So before I add more gasoline, let's start with positives, especially one that everyone overlooked.

Artwork is GREAT.

I was worried that we're getting noob over Stanley, Skelly or Yardley, but those Zombots are way better than in last 2 issues. Yardely makes them look like imps or something, too lively, too mischievous. Lawrance made dumb but unstoppable threat. And in #18 there maybe 4 zombie per panel. Here were drowning in buggers. And as much as I love Herms coloring, Curry's dry pallet gives much better somber tone. This finally FEELS like a zombie apocalypse.

(Also Cream just lost her best friend, but she keeps updating her map. What a trooper.)

World building is still worse than Archie, but it's slooowly improving (I'm still waiting for not-generic-city location). Omega is still amazing, might be one of his best issues. Rouge... actually does very little, poor girl.

Ok, prepare marshmallows for bonfire, time to talk about Shadow. (Spoilers for  the ending, not that it matter by this point).

- Just like in previous issues Shadow is still badass. I actually hoped for a GUN truck to show-up and his fighting style is satisfyingly brutal.
- He's jerk to Sonic, but Sonic kiiiinda deserves it. And Shadow's angry, he probably doesn't really meant it. Rest of his dialogue is a little annoying, too much talking how great he is. And that's more 2010s Shadow, not pre-06. Shadow always has s somewhat of a ego, but till Free Riders he always balances it with some kind of emotional conflict (Maria, identity, human hatred, being a weapon, etc) and/or stoic focus on a job. Also, SHADOW CARES ABOUT PEOPLE. He promised Maria to give people chance to be happy! In Sonic Battle he claimed that all weapons (including him) should be destroyed so there can be peace! He doesn't show it, but he cares! Still, despite my little rant, dialogue isn't that bad.
- And then ENDING happens. Thanks to bloody spoilers I knew beforehand the twist, so I wondered how he will get infected. By protecting someone? He is known for heroic sacrifices. Or maybe Eggman will target him, since he's a too dangerous?

No! Shadow bear hugs the Idiot Ball like his life depends on it!

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Overconfident lone wolf character gets punished for acting like an overconfident lone wolf, this is bad writing somehow?

There is being overconfident (getting infected) and then there is being idiot who knows staying will kill infect him, but doing it anyway because... ego. Also Shadow ran few  times in the past (from police in SA2, Battle after getting hurt, Chronicles in his boss battle, Sir Lancelot during final act).

But what really annoys me is that IDW Shadow is absolute screwing up idiot ALL THE TIME.
Isuse 6 he tries to kill Tinker/fails to kill Tinker (pick which you think was a crime), issue 10 he powered up Metal, now this. I get that Flynn doesn't want to make Shadow invincible Mary Sue, but he tips the scale too much in other direction. It's just like early Archie when Shadow was punching bag for Scourge/Lara-Su/Adam/Enerjack/SuperScourge. Any of those defeats would been fine, in a row got a little grading.

PLEEEEASE Flynn, let Shadow do one badass thing, that won't be instantly undone by his ego.

2 hours ago, Redbluethunder5 said:

Considering,how there seems to be no human character and G.U.N. doesn't seem to exist anymore,I'm starting to fear that Maria never existed in this canon

And Eggman is what, a very fat naked mole rat?

You're overreacting. That would be more confusing that Two World thing.

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its not even that it's out of character, it just makes Shadow look really stupid beyond the suspension of disbelief. 

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

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17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Thinking like this assumes that because a character has "developed" they're no longer capable of making mistakes. Shadow may have developed from when he was first introduced but he's still got a big ego and he's currently pissed at Sonic, the guy who told him to run if he gets infected, the guy who he blames for this whole mess for getting in his way with Eggman. It's natural enough that he'd keep following his gut and try to do things his way than let someone else tell him what to do when that went so wrong last time. It's the wrong choice, obviously, but it doesn't come from him being "dumb".

Of course he still has flaws,but there is a difference between "overconfident " and "idiot"! Shadow has learned to realize when he is wrong,so why was he so dumb here?

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

Yeah,but then he saw that he wasn't and he STILL refused to run

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

He honestly did seem out of character, to be honest.

He doesn't seem like the character to boast himself up while fighting.

But he did say that the Doctor's virus "can't infect the ultimate lifeform" so maybe he really did think he couldn't get infected.

 

Almost every time Shadow acts, its lording how superior he is as the ultimate lifeform; it's just that his ego was balanced by whatever emotional conflict he was going through at the time (revenge for a loved one, an identity crisis, struggling with the fact that he'll be betrayed one day). Without that emotional conflict, he's just...an even more arrogant version of Sonic, which has been apparent since 2010. 

 

It's not a bad thing mind you; like I said, I like my characters flawed and being fallible. But it kind of has to make sense in a way that doesn't make them look foolish.

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20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Thinking like this assumes that because a character has "developed" they're no longer capable of making mistakes.

But he made a mistake, he thought due to who he was he was invulnerable. That's good fine mistake to make, that's a very shadow mistake.

The subsequent mistake is the issue, that's legit fucking stupid

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12 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That kind of stops being an excuse when he keeps fighting after he sees that he has been infected.

11 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

There is being overconfident (getting infected) and then there is being idiot who knows staying will kill infect him, but doing it anyway because... ego.

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

2 minutes ago, Redbluethunder5 said:

Shadow has learned to realize when he is wrong,so why was he so dumb here?

This is exactly the mindset I'm arguing against; a character doesn't just gain a perfect understanding of when they're wrong simply because they've grown as a character. They still have flaws, they still fall into old habits, they still make mistakes.

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14 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Issue 19.

Ok, as always talking about Shadow started a fire. So before I add more gasoline, let's start with positives, especially one that everyone overlooked.

Artwork is GREAT.

I was worried that we're getting noob over Stanley, Skelly or Yardley, but those Zombots are way better than in last 2 issues. Yardely makes them look like imps or something, too lively, too mischievous. Lawrance made dumb but unstoppable threat. And in #18 there maybe 4 zombie per panel. Here were drowning in buggers. And as much as I love Herms coloring, Curry's dry pallet gives much better somber tone. This finally FEELS like a zombie apocalypse.

(Also Cream just lost her best friend, but she keeps updating her map. What a trooper.)

World building is still worse than Archie, but it's slooowly improving (I'm still waiting for not-generic-city location). Omega is still amazing, might be one of his best issues. Rouge... actually does very little, poor girl.

Ok, prepare marshmallows for bonfire, time to talk about Shadow. (Spoilers for  the ending, not that it matter by this point).

- Just like in previous issues Shadow is still badass. I actually hoped for a GUN truck to show-up and his fighting style is satisfyingly brutal.
- He's jerk to Sonic, but Sonic kiiiinda deserves it. And Shadow's angry, he probably doesn't really meant it. Rest of his dialogue is a little annoying, too much talking how great he is. And that's more 2010s Shadow, not pre-06. Shadow always has s somewhat of a ego, but till Free Riders he always balances it with some kind of emotional conflict (Maria, identity, human hatred, being a weapon, etc) and/or stoic focus on a job. Also, SHADOW CARES ABOUT PEOPLE. He promised Maria to give people chance to be happy! In Sonic Battle he claimed that all weapons (including him) should be destroyed so there can be peace! He doesn't show it, but he cares! Still, despite my little rant, dialogue isn't that bad.
- And then ENDING happens. Thanks to bloody spoilers I knew beforehand the twist, so I wondered how he will get infected. By protecting someone? He is known for heroic sacrifices. Or maybe Eggman will target him, since he's a too dangerous?

No! Shadow bare hugs the Idiot Ball like his life depends on it!

There is being overconfident (getting infected) and then there is being idiot who knows staying will kill infect him, but doing it anyway because... ego. Also Shadow ran few  times in the past (from police in SA2, Battle after getting hurt, Chronicles in his boss battle, Sir Lancelot during final act).

But what really annoys me is that IDW Shadow is absolute screwing up idiot ALL THE TIME.
Isuse 6 he tries to kill Tinker/fails to kill Tinker (pick which you think was a crime), issue 10 he powered up Metal, now this. I get that Flynn doesn't want to make Shadow invincible Mary Sue, but he tips the scale too much in other direction. It's just like early Archie when Shadow was punching bag for Scourge/Lara-Su/Adam/Enerjack/SuperScourge. Any of those defeats would been fine, in a row got a little grading.

PLEEEEASE Flynn, let Shadow do one badass thing, that won't be instantly undone by his ego.

And Eggman is what, a very fat naked mole rat?

You're overreacting. That would be more confusing that Two World thing.

See, I can take Issue 6, since it was an interesting ideological conflict between Sonic and Shadow. Issue 10 I can excuse because Shadow didn't know Metal would copy his data along with the Master Emerald's beforehand.

This is neither of those things, so it gets no pass.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

In the mindset of the character when characterized correctly he would have just bounced. Its out of character , its legit less " he should have done this " and now at the point where i'm questioning who the character i'm looking at is. 

I feel like the " Well you can know because you are the audience " downplays criticism and just dismisses the idea that the characterization could have actually been bad.

Quote

This is exactly the mindset I'm arguing against; a character doesn't just gain a perfect understanding of when they're wrong simply because they've grown as a character. They still have flaws, they still fall into old habits, they still make mistakes.

And they made a mistake, the 2nd mistake is the issue. And goes against not just development, but his whole character. That's an issue.

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This issue would have been more interesting of Shadow was forced to swallow his pride and take Sonic's advice for once. I wouldn't have minded if he got infected after that some other kind of way, but this level of hard-headed from a character used to crisis situations is kinda silly. 

 

I can see they're kinda having trouble with pacing again though so I'm gonna let it slide. As starved as I am for good Shadow content he's not our focus this arc so they just used him to escalate the wider conflict. Not in love with this issue but at least I get to watch Sonic and Shadow fight again next month.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

You're still ignoring the fact that Shadow knows he can just run to stave off the virus, Sonic told him this. 

You're ignoring the in-universe logic that's at play here. I know what the story is trying to do, its HOW it did it that I have an issue with.

 

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This issue would have been more interesting of Shadow was forced to swallow his pride and take Sonic's advice for once. I wouldn't have minded if he got infected after that some other kind of way, but this level of hard-headed from a character used to crisis situations is kinda silly. 

 

I can see they're kinda having trouble with pacing again though so I'm gonna let it slide. As starved as I am for good Shadow content he's not our focus this arc and they just needed to push things along. 

I kinda don't think him not being the focus is an excuse. Everyone else who was featured this storyline and the last one didn't look like this, this is just genuinely a bad representation of the character and there's no signs this will change if the focus was on him

And I would argue the sonic shadow fight is kinda pointless , because shadow isn't shadow. He's a weird metal zombie. He might as well be metal sonic at this point, because at least from  my perspective once you rob shadow of his personality ... there's nothing else there.

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I kinda don't think him not being the focus is an excuse. Everyone else who was featured this storyline and the last one didn't look like this, this is just genuinely a bad representation of the character and there's no signs this will change if the focus was on him

 

I haven't minded Shadow's characterization that much up until this point unlike you so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's lazy, but more care probably would have been taken in a Shadow focused story.

 

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Shadow getting infected is fine, having one of the strongest guys after the main character succumb raises the stakes a bit. I just would have preferred it done in a way that didn't make him look stupid, since it undercuts the drama more than a little bit.

 

It's not a dealbreaker for me, just something you roll your eyes at as you keep reading.

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's not a dealbreaker for me, just something you roll your eyes at as you keep reading.

I dunno for me , I don't really have any proof that shadow will be written any other way than this.  This is how he's been presented to be, and since he's my fav. I dunno It makes me want to put down the book, I would rather not indulge in something that craps on the thing I like every time it gets around to it. But that's just me. Maybe it will get better but for right now  , i'm kinda at the point where I think i'm just gonna read x men. That's good, that's new and good and treats the people in really cool

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

I dunno for me , I don't really have any proof that shadow will be written any other way than this.  This is how he's been presented to be, and since he's my fav. I dunno It makes me want to put down the book, I would rather not indulge in something that craps on the thing I like every time it gets around to it. But that's just me

You're literally the only one who hates how Shadow is written overall. His characterization has been for me. This is one instance I felt they dropped the ball, otherwise I don't agree with you.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're literally the only one who hates how Shadow is written overall. His characterization has been for me. This is one instance I felt they dropped the ball, otherwise I don't agree with you.

I think he's ok in...what issue 10. But i'm not " Ian Flynn writing shadow bad " was already around and a meme back in archie. I didn't agree with it then, though he's not doing a great job right now. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

See, I can take Issue 6, since it was an interesting ideological conflict between Sonic and Shadow. Issue 10 I can excuse because Shadow didn't know Metal would copy his data along with the Master Emerald's beforehand.

This is neither of those things, so it gets no pass.

I would forgive #10 it easier, if Shadow redeemed himself in anyway, like actually having significant role in defeating Metal.

But main main problem is frequency. 3 failures out of 3 appearances is a poor career.

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah that's the part where a character actually faces meaningful consequences for their flaws and doesn't simply get to ignore them when they'd be inconvenient.

It's easy to sit back in your chair, comic in your hand, dispassionately observing, and say "well they should've just done this then!" while downplaying the situation and mindset of the character.

What Kuzu said above, it's about subtleties that make Shadow's actions believable.

And don't use 'well, from your perspective it's simple argument on me. I'm usually on your side in those kind of discussions. "Total Eclipse" had Shadow and Knuckles being idiots, but I perfectly understood their motives, emotions and thinking process. Here Shadow is ignoring all logic, for rather petty reasons.

Also, I have dozen ideas how to improve script.

1) Shadow is blaming himself for all of this and refuses to 'stop fixing it'. Guilt clouds his judgment.
2) Shadow actually tries to run or teleport, but it's just to too late. He's capable of thinking, but his flaws still cause his downfall.
3) Even after getting infected Shadow believes his Ultimate-Lifeform healing system can stop this, but it doesn't work. Shadow picks a risky route based on belief in his own greatness, rather than hopeless route (not from my perspective, from his. he knows staying is game over) based on stubbornness.

And those are just options that require me to stick to the script. I would still prefer if Shadow did a heroic sacrifice.

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Anyway, the ending aside, the issue was fine. Nice to see someone calling Sonic out on how this was technically his fault.

 

The art is...passable. there was a weird shading on it that made things look paler, but it does fit the situation. And why is everyone slack-jawed all of a sudden.

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