Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[thumbs13]

28 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

And in Heroes he beats up the other teams just to get to Eggman first. If thats not being an jerk I don't know what that is.

 

Not really, Rouge started both of the Team Dark fights in heroes, and both teams egged it on in both scenarios. There's probably evidence of post 06 Shadow being a jerk, but heroes wasn't really the best example.

[Shadowlax]

26 minutes ago, JosepHenry said:

Shadow was always an arrogant jerk rival, is not something from "2010 and beyond" even back in Sonic Battle Shadow says that he hates the friendship talk and stuff, tries to beat up Sonic to get Emerl... And in Heroes he beats up the other teams just to get to Eggman first. If thats not being an jerk I don't know what that is.

Like guys, you don't even know the characters you like. This is absolutely fine for Shadow.  Specially in a zombie apocalipse caused  by the annoying blue hedgehog that stopped him.

Or you guys want him to not have any flaws which uh thats not how characters should work.

Sonic battle largely isn't a thing that's referenced or cared about ( unfortunately it was a good game ) and shadow's game and 06 are the characterizations people reference along with sonic adventure 2 as the frame work for his character because they represent the whole of his character arc. And the end of it coming out a more level headed person, its neat you bring up heroes but that's not the end of his arc.

So no it isn't normal for a character to literally regress all the way past basic's for a story, that's not normal. Its often an indication that you are either telling a bad story, or in some cases a really good critical story. But that is generally not normal unless reboots are invovled.

So no, its not fine for shadow. No one said no one wanted him to have any flaws. Infact most people in this thread and I have seen do not have an issue with shadow untill really late in the book where he decides to go full vegeta. And before that he's already messing up and having flaws and its fine.

If you like this issue, that is totally ok. That's your business more power to you. But to play critcism of him off as " wanting him to be perfect " is ignoring the critcisms that have been made

[Kuzu]

Lemme paraphrase; he's been flanderized into being nothing BUT an arrogant jerk rival. There was some bit of nuance to him that simply isn't present anymore and that's where the divide comes.

Like I said, it's not even out of character; but Shadow has done nothing but talk shit, and get his ass kicked which isn't very interesting to watch for almost 10 years.

 

It's not that nobody wants him to be flawed, it's that the character lacks any of the subtlety that initially drew people to him in favor of the simplistic version of himself that he is now.

 

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I mean he got the shit beaten out of him at the start of Forces so I'm not sure how much that's actually a thing.

And if it turns out they can't "really" hurt Sonic I'd rather they had just skipped this infection thing. There'd be more tension in him narrowly escaping being infected each issue than in the nothing we've got now, even if it was a fake threat.

Yea, but he's no worse for wear the next time we see him and is almost immediately freed.

And I agree; I wish they'd just go ahead and turn him rather teasing it like they have been for the past 3-4 issues.

[AphexPhreak]

2 hours ago, Razule said:

Is that a thing Sonic characters need to do? Maybe they've evolved beyond such things.

No need to be a jerk dude. 

Yeah it's an obvious observation but I just kinda dig when they get into physical limitations of characters who are usually just shown as being boundless in the energy they have.

 

[SBR2]

Now I'm going to preface this by saying I haven't read the comic because I can't really buy them currently. But having said that I don't really see the difference in Shadow here from what I've seen at all?

Like isn't Shadow's whole thing that he's overconfident, abrasive and a bit of a hot head? This doesn't really seem all that different from how Shadow is usually played since Shadow The Hedgehog to me.

Then again I'm not a Shadow super fan so maybe I'm missing something here.

[StaticMania]

3 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

Like guys, you don't even know the characters you like.

It doesn't seem like you really get Shadow either...

So it totally makes up for you saying this unnecessary thing.

[Razule]

53 minutes ago, AphexPhreak said:

No need to be a jerk dude. 

Yeah it's an obvious observation but I just kinda dig when they get into physical limitations of characters who are usually just shown as being boundless in the energy they have.

 

I was just joking, didn't mean to come across that way.

The thought didn't occur to me before, he really must be running all day and all night.. even in Unleashed he could have been assumed to be sleeping off-screen sometimes, but damn, he really is a machine.

[Kuzu]

Nobody ever seems to ever come to a consensus on what these characters are like...or at least what's acceptable in terms of characterization.

It makes it really grating to talk about them in all honesty...

[Razule]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Like isn't Shadow's whole thing that he's overconfident, abrasive and a bit of a hot head?

I thought that was Sonic's thing (or Knuckles?), and Shadow was the calm and collected one?

[Red Hot Jack]

Shadow has high pride, he's more passive usually but he has "his own reasons" when he fights. Zavok is the one supposed to be the evil but calm and collected strategist.

I honestly thought the interactions with Sonic were fine, "it's what you deserve" Shadow is kind of a dick so it's something he would say, now the end of the issue… was quite dumb, still, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I just want to know more, obviously Shadow didn't expect to get infected, but I'm hoping he has some personality left even now.

[Dr. Detective]

Everyone's got their own ideas about what the characters are and what they should be like, true. One of the things that makes this even more of an off-shoot of an issue is the fact that this is also a different version of Shadow, same with how Eggman is very, very much a different version of his game counterpart. Not to mention the fact that Ian's taken to even writing different versions of Shadow himself from comic to comic as has been pointed out.

Once again, I like this version, personally. I do actually prefer he be the more aggressive and abrasive rival type with a less "nice" approach to how he deals out justice. My problem with Shadow in the Archie comics and the games to a certain extent after a certain point was that he lost what made him stand out from someone like Knuckles. For a while he just felt like a second Knuckles, except maybe a bit more stoic, which I don't find interesting. Every time Shadow's made an appearance in this book he's said or done something that's made me go "Ooo~!" at least once or twice. That's good for someone like me who, despite liking Shadow, doesn't have him in his Top 10 or anything. 

In my head, whether it's an outdated thing or not, I still have Knuckles as that friendly rival character who has respect for Sonic but doesn't show it or hand-waves it off when people suggest he might. Seeing it done with Shadow in Issue 2 of Sonic Universe kind of threw me off a bit. I want their roles to be of a different beast so I'm more for this kind of harsher approach. I'm okay with him being closer to a hero now but I do prefer they lock down what makes him more anti-hero than not. That's kind of why I like Team Dark as a concept. They're the Anti-Team Sonic to me. Not evil. Not straight up Team Eggman but they've got a little bit of that shadiness sprinkled in. 

[Sonictrainer]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic battle largely isn't a thing that's referenced

Gemerl says "Hi".

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Gemerl says "Hi".

Neat when was the last time outside of this comic and a calendar sonic battle was referenced in significant degree let alone in regards to shadows characterization, which is what I meant.

Shadow the hedgehog a game that literally notorious, a game some say is the downfall of sonic games is referenced more in regards to shadow and lately in general.

So i think my point stands imo

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Everyone's got their own ideas about what the characters are and what they should be like, true. One of the things that makes this even more of an off-shoot of an issue is the fact that this is also a different version of Shadow, same with how Eggman is very, very much a different version of his game counterpart. Not to mention the fact that Ian's taken to even writing different versions of Shadow himself from comic to comic as has been pointed out.

Once again, I like this version, personally. I do actually prefer he be the more aggressive and abrasive rival type with a less "nice" approach to how he deals out justice. My problem with Shadow in the Archie comics and the games to a certain extent after a certain point was that he lost what made him stand out from someone like Knuckles. For a while he just felt like a second Knuckles, except maybe a bit more stoic, which I don't find interesting. Every time Shadow's made an appearance in this book he's said or done something that's made me go "Ooo~!" at least once or twice. That's good for someone like me who, despite liking Shadow, doesn't have him in his Top 10 or anything. 

In my head, whether it's an outdated thing or not, I still have Knuckles as that friendly rival character who has respect for Sonic but doesn't show it or hand-waves it off when people suggest he might. Seeing it done with Shadow in Issue 2 of Sonic Universe kind of threw me off a bit. I want their roles to be of a different beast so I'm more for this kind of harsher approach. I'm okay with him being closer to a hero now but I do prefer they lock down what makes him more anti-hero than not. That's kind of why I like Team Dark as a concept. They're the Anti-Team Sonic to me. Not evil. Not straight up Team Eggman but they've got a little bit of that shadiness sprinkled in. 

What separates him from knuckles was that he could think and reason and generally had reasons for doing things. His debut is him getting eggman to blow the planet up for him  a slow plan that required working with people and planning. What you just described is knuckles and vegeta, imo anyway.

I totally shadow can be less nice, and would like to see a less nice version. This is a really bad go at it imo

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

What separates him from knuckles was that he could think and reason and generally had reasons for doing things. His debut is him getting eggman to blow the planet up for him  a slow plan that required working with people and planning. What you just described is knuckles and vegeta, imo anyway.

I totally shadow can be less nice, and would like to see a less nice version. This is a really bad go at it imo

What separates Shadow from Knuckles should be emphasized a bit more. If it's just that he's smarter than Knuckles (which I assume is what you mean when you say "he could think and reason") than that's not really the part that I'm focusing on. Both characters have reasons for doing things. That's the basis of any character worth their salt. Whether or not that's remembered varies from interpretation to interpretation but that's generally what I believe to be true about them anyway. I don't see how that separates the two.

 

[Shadowlax]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

What separates Shadow from Knuckles should be emphasized a bit more. If it's just that he's smarter than Knuckles (which I assume is what you mean when you say "he could think and reason") than that's not really the part that I'm focusing on. Both characters have reasons for doing things. That's the basis of any character worth their salt. Whether or not that's remembered varies from interpretation to interpretation but that's generally what I believe to be true about them anyway. I don't see how that separates the two.

 

Quote

Both characters have reasons for doing things

So lets focus on this, no they don't. A lot of sonic characters don't, they are kinda just spurred into action because of something vague or were in knuckles's or blaze's  case ordained to something from on high and that's sort of their job. Why do the choatix do what they do... because they want to . Why does knuckles's do what he does or blaze a vague notion of it being their job. And there are characters like amy , or sonic who just kinda " follow their rainbow " with a general sense of right and tails who just kinda follows sonic's rainbow.

Shadow has reasons for why he is , the way that he is , specifically. When he decides to do something, it is filtered through a series of events that we experienced that led him to whatever he is doing at the moment. You don't have to ask that about knuckles, he on an island he was told to be on the island , he punch. The only question that gets ask is " why is he dumb now " and " why isn't he guarding the M.E" it just isn't that complicated. Shadow is like one of 3 characters that actually has events that are the reason for why they do what they do and effect why they do what they do . Its why shadow gets criticized more than everyone else. Because to put it simply he is one of 3 characters who are active that actually has a backstory that is significant enough to shape character beyond basic things.

For some people that backstory is plus , for other's is a minus but the thing is it exists and it shapes our perception of how we view shadow. And when he acts , we are thinking about all that shit before hand. Its why when forces happened and shadow was a bad guy people were freaking out, because that doesn't track with who is and why he does what he does.

He's a character who could think, consider and act in ways that was not on the beaten path and there was generally reasoning for it. He was a man with the plan, because he actually could fucking think beyond " I'm the ultimate life form " . To Ian or whoever made this creative decision, that characterization wasn't relevant this core important part of the character wasn't relevant. And the criticism that exists now is a response to that.

To put it even simplier. Think about knuckles right? So what does knuckles's story/backstory do for him personality wise? Ok so he grew up alone on an island ,so he's isolationist a bit gullible and maybe not too bright. And if you wanna Dhalsim stretch, maybe you can justify his rivalry of sonic about feeling insecurties because the only thing his people left him was a lonely job and mural to another guy. That isn't stated anywhere but if you wanna stretch what you got, there you go. And that's it, nothing else is expected of knuckles , knuckles has not largely changed from that point.  And a lot of what I said isn't even referenced anymore. And wasn't referenced back in heroes .

Shadow has his initial backstory happen to him, this causes him to be angry, callous, but he has a strong sense of right its just directed in the wrong direction by forces outside of his control and over the course of that game he learns compassion some forgiveness. Ok heroes happens, he has amnesia but is generally the same guy because he kinda remembers some stuff unconsciously but not all of it. If this were knuckles, that would be end of the characterization. Shadow had new shit happened to him and added to his personality and thinking. He gets friends, he understands that's valuable, he gets a sense of insecurities himself when he thinks he's an andriod but then finds out he's actually an alien. He learns to put his past behind him in that same game as well as get his sense of happy cooperation reinforced. Then later he meets a younger hedgehog wet behind the ears making the same mistakes he was listening to people and shit with out thinking what he's doing and shows what to do. And the he meets satan and satan tells him he's gonna get betrayed and then tells satan who has taken the form of himself, to go fuck off because he'll make his own way. And that, all that is the culmination of a bunch of stuff.

There is no culmination with knuckles a sum of parts , a build up of characterization cache to cash out to create a finished character. He was made in a different time, they gave him two things and ran with it, literally and metaphorically because you know... sonic.

So that's what I mean by " Shadow does things for reasons and thinks about why he's doing them " because he's always been billed as that character. Even recently. Because its why a lot of people like him.

However times have changed. We are in an era of sonic after untold failures , its a relvovling door of devs that never quite get enough funding or time to make what they want. Characters like infinite who may have worked in shadow's time, just aren't equipped to exist under the current regime . So under the assumption that this is a sega decision , not an Ian Flynn decision or a very bad editor , sega wants to consolidate all that down into a set flat character. Which is possible and would be totally fine because he finished his arc , you could just take 06 shadow like they did last time and just roll with it ...literally and figuratively. However , remember those untold failures. Some of those relate to shadow, and unfortunately for shadow there are some who don't view shadow as a sum of his parts but more so as different interpretations. And those people are significant enough along with shadow's best characterization being in the game credited for the franchises downfall. Sega/SonicTeam might feel like he instead needs to be rolled back. Robbing his character of those experiences and robbing the character kind of , of the thing that makes shadow ...shadow. His ability to do that. Making shadow, effectively edgy knuckles.  Instead of being a culmination , its four separate characterizations that is pulled from at random.

So that's why I say that. That's what I mean. In a sea that is as shallow as a puddle, the shadow ocean at least got to waist height. And that was for this franchise, was unique.
So I am to reaffirm a bold prediction I made in another thread.

Spoiler

If this shadow is a sega/sonic team directive, I firmly stand by my idea that if there is a sonic adventure 1 and 2 remake and they sort of use that as a means to reboot elements of the franchise. Maria is not going to exist and rouge and shadow will barely know each other. He will be made to be flat to be more usable on their end, maybe focus more on the alien stuff . So he doesn't have any baggage that restricts them.

 

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

What program. Its a product, product doing something i'm not that interested in, I may not buy product. There was a whole stint in the archie reboot where I did not buy the main series comics because they were boring and quite bad.

That's it. Its probably the healthiest approach one could take. Instead on yelling on the internet and in some horrible cases some fans threatening the lives of the creatives. Also hey if someone is reading who might do that to any creator... fucking don't do that. I mean don't do that in general, threatening peoples existence is bad, but especially don't do that over media.

Anywho instead of doing that going " eh this isn't good i'm gonna bow out untill its cool again" is a pretty reasonable take yeah? There are people doing this with the games? What's the issue here? Should I keep reading this bad thing? I don't really owe IDW that, nor do they inherently owe me to do cool shit with things I like. That's just the nature of creator/consumer dynamic

Its not like it happens all the time

You know, in the time I've spent just off today, I actually forgot I posted that. Hm.

Anyway, I should clarify that I was less referring the choice about buying the comic--I can't say I blame ya either way--, but rather on getting particularly upset purely based on a favorite character not exactly getting the ritz. Now that's not to say it isn't justified, with cases like this being pretty fair, but unfortunately there's quite a long line stacking around anyway.

7 hours ago, Razule said:

Is that a thing Sonic characters need to do? Maybe they've evolved beyond such things.

I think it's been stated that Sonic does need 8 hours of sleep per day in order to run at his best.

7 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

 And in Heroes he beats up the other teams just to get to Eggman first. If thats not being an jerk I don't know what that is.

 

To be a little fair, at least the Chaotix was more on Rouge than anything.

[Sonictrainer]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Neat when was the last time outside of this comic and a calendar sonic battle was referenced

Sonic Generations 3DS

[Shadowlax]

7 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Sonic Generations 3DS

I feel like you are missing the point of my statement ( and chopped it off ) , but maybe you are being intentionally obtuse so i'm just gonna end this here. Have a good one.

 

12 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

You know, in the time I've spent just off today, I actually forgot I posted that. Hm.

Anyway, I should clarify that I was less referring the choice about buying the comic--I can't say I blame ya either way--, but rather on getting particularly upset purely based on a favorite character not exactly getting the ritz. Now that's not to say it isn't justified, with cases like this being pretty fair, but unfortunately there's quite a long line stacking around anyway.

 

I don't quite understand what you mean by the end of the statement?

 

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Nobody ever seems to ever come to a consensus on what these characters are like...or at least what's acceptable in terms of characterization.

It makes it really grating to talk about them in all honesty...

That's tenable.

3 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

Shadow has high pride, he's more passive usually but he has "his own reasons" when he fights. Zavok is the one supposed to be the evil but calm and collected strategist.

I honestly thought the interactions with Sonic were fine, "it's what you deserve" Shadow is kind of a dick so it's something he would say, now the end of the issue… was quite dumb, still, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I just want to know more, obviously Shadow didn't expect to get infected, but I'm hoping he has some personality left even now.

Zavok's a relatively new and [mostly] segregated thing, to be fair. 

I supposed the difference here is that, as you said, the antiheroic Shadow is supposed to be the type for bluntly work towards he feels as right, whereas Zavok has thus far been about reckoning ways to impose his group's values in a predatory manner.

Regardless, it's entirely possible for two characters to be pretty similar with or without comparison, though.

3 hours ago, Razule said:

I thought that was Sonic's thing (or Knuckles?), and Shadow was the calm and collected one?

It can vary, but generally speaking, Sonic is about doing whatever he feels, Knuckles is easily agitated around his tradition, and Shadow is straightforward about taking action.

[Sonictrainer]

27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

To put it even simplier. Think about knuckles right? So what does knuckles's story/backstory do for him personality wise? Ok so he grew up alone on an island ,so he's isolationist a bit gullible and maybe not too bright. And if you wanna Dhalsim stretch, maybe you can justify his rivalry of sonic about feeling insecurties because the only thing his people left him was a lonely job and mural to another guy. That isn't stated anywhere but if you wanna stretch what you got, there you go. And that's it, nothing else is expected of knuckles , knuckles has not largely changed from that point.  And a lot of what I said isn't even referenced anymore. And wasn't referenced back in heroes .

Shadow has his initial backstory happen to him, this causes him to be angry, callous, but he has a strong sense of right its just directed in the wrong direction by forces outside of his control and over the course of that game he learns compassion some forgiveness. Ok heroes happens, he has amnesia but is generally the same guy because he kinda remembers some stuff unconsciously but not all of it. If this were knuckles, that would be end of the characterization. Shadow had new shit happened to him and added to his personality and thinking. He gets friends, he understands that's valuable, he gets a sense of insecurities himself when he thinks he's an andriod but then finds out he's actually an alien. He learns to put his past behind him in that same game as well as get his sense of happy cooperation reinforced. Then later he meets a younger hedgehog wet behind the ears making the same mistakes he was listening to people and shit with out thinking what he's doing and shows what to do. And the he meets satan and satan tells him he's gonna get betrayed and then tells satan who has taken the form of himself, to go fuck off because he'll make his own way. And that, all that is the culmination of a bunch of stuff.

There is no culmination with knuckles a sum of parts , a build up of characterization cache to cash out to create a finished character. He was made in a different time, they gave him two things and ran with it, literally and metaphorically because you know... sonic.

So basically...

Knuckles is easy to write because his backstory doesn't have all the baggage Shadow has?

[Diogenes]

Knuckles is easy to write because he is allowed to be dumb (sometimes).

[prettyinplague]

9 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm not going to tell people how they should enjoy a product; but if your enjoyment of this book hinges on how it treats your favorite character and nothing else, you're better off just reading fanfiction about said character.

Reminds of an ex friend who tore up his copy of The Walking Dead when Glenn died. 

 

18 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I am now afraid of how bad the next comic will be. I didn't think I would enter back into pender's era feeling but fuck it here we go.

Please don't compare Ian and Penders ever again. 
 

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

So lets focus on this, no they don't.

Yes they do. In some capacity, all the characters have reasons for being who they are and doing what they do. The only one who doesn't is Cream because her life is pretty much set. She lives with her mom and Chao buddies and that's it. She has no occupation, personal goal, task imposed upon herself, or mission. She only takes action when something is taken from her. I guess Big counts as one who doesn't as well, though, even then I can at least say he's a fisherman.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

A lot of sonic characters don't, they are kinda just spurred into action because of something vague or were in knuckles's or blaze's  case ordained to something from on high and that's sort of their job. Why do the choatix do what they do... because they want to . Why does knuckles's do what he does or blaze a vague notion of it being their job. And there are characters like amy , or sonic who just kinda " follow their rainbow " with a general sense of right and tails who just kinda follows sonic's rainbow.

Shadow has reasons for why he is , the way that he is , specifically. When he decides to do something, it is filtered through a series of events that we experienced that led him to whatever he is doing at the moment. You don't have to ask that about knuckles, he on an island he was told to be on the island , he punch. The only question that gets ask is " why is he dumb now " and " why isn't he guarding the M.E" it just isn't that complicated. Shadow is like one of 3 characters that actually has events that are the reason for why they do what they do and effect why they do what they do . Its why shadow gets criticized more than everyone else. Because to put it simply he is one of 3 characters who are active that actually has a backstory that is significant enough to shape character beyond basic things.

For some people that backstory is plus , for other's is a minus but the thing is it exists and it shapes our perception of how we view shadow. And when he acts , we are thinking about all that shit before hand. Its why when forces happened and shadow was a bad guy people were freaking out, because that doesn't track with who is and why he does what he does.

He's a character who could think, consider and act in ways that was not on the beaten path and there was generally reasoning for it. He was a man with the plan, because he actually could fucking think beyond " I'm the ultimate life form " . To Ian or whoever made this creative decision, that characterization wasn't relevant this core important part of the character wasn't relevant. And the criticism that exists now is a response to that.

To put it even simplier. Think about knuckles right? So what does knuckles's story/backstory do for him personality wise? Ok so he grew up alone on an island ,so he's isolationist a bit gullible and maybe not too bright. And if you wanna Dhalsim stretch, maybe you can justify his rivalry of sonic about feeling insecurties because the only thing his people left him was a lonely job and mural to another guy. That isn't stated anywhere but if you wanna stretch what you got, there you go. And that's it, nothing else is expected of knuckles , knuckles has not largely changed from that point.  And a lot of what I said isn't even referenced anymore. And wasn't referenced back in heroes .

Shadow has his initial backstory happen to him, this causes him to be angry, callous, but he has a strong sense of right its just directed in the wrong direction by forces outside of his control and over the course of that game he learns compassion some forgiveness. Ok heroes happens, he has amnesia but is generally the same guy because he kinda remembers some stuff unconsciously but not all of it. If this were knuckles, that would be end of the characterization. Shadow had new shit happened to him and added to his personality and thinking. He gets friends, he understands that's valuable, he gets a sense of insecurities himself when he thinks he's an andriod but then finds out he's actually an alien. He learns to put his past behind him in that same game as well as get his sense of happy cooperation reinforced. Then later he meets a younger hedgehog wet behind the ears making the same mistakes he was listening to people and shit with out thinking what he's doing and shows what to do. And the he meets satan and satan tells him he's gonna get betrayed and then tells satan who has taken the form of himself, to go fuck off because he'll make his own way. And that, all that is the culmination of a bunch of stuff.

There is no culmination with knuckles a sum of parts , a build up of characterization cache to cash out to create a finished character. He was made in a different time, they gave him two things and ran with it, literally and metaphorically because you know... sonic.

So that's what I mean by " Shadow does things for reasons and thinks about why he's doing them " because he's always been billed as that character. Even recently. Because its why a lot of people like him.

However times have changed. We are in an era of sonic after untold failures , its a relvovling door of devs that never quite get enough funding or time to make what they want. Characters like infinite who may have worked in shadow's time, just aren't equipped to exist under the current regime . So under the assumption that this is a sega decision , not an Ian Flynn decision or a very bad editor , sega wants to consolidate all that down into a set flat character. Which is possible and would be totally fine because he finished his arc , you could just take 06 shadow like they did last time and just roll with it ...literally and figuratively. However , remember those untold failures. Some of those relate to shadow, and unfortunately for shadow there are some who don't view shadow as a sum of his parts but more so as different interpretations. And those people are significant enough along with shadow's best characterization being in the game credited for the franchises downfall. Sega/SonicTeam might feel like he instead needs to be rolled back. Robbing his character of those experiences and robbing the character kind of , of the thing that makes shadow ...shadow. His ability to do that. Making shadow, effectively edgy knuckles.  Instead of being a culmination , its four separate characterizations that is pulled from at random.

So that's why I say that. That's what I mean. In a sea that is as shallow as a puddle, the shadow ocean at least got to waist height. And that was for this franchise, was unique.
So I am to reaffirm a bold prediction I made in another thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

If this shadow is a sega/sonic team directive, I firmly stand by my idea that if there is a sonic adventure 1 and 2 remake and they sort of use that as a means to reboot elements of the franchise. Maria is not going to exist and rouge and shadow will barely know each other. He will be made to be flat to be more usable on their end, maybe focus more on the alien stuff . So he doesn't have any baggage that restricts them.

 

This is extremely hard to read and it's full of a lot of unnecessary words. If the general point you're trying to make is in support of explaining why Knuckles' reasoning for doing the things he does... doesn't exist than I can't say reading through this has persuaded me. If you feel like they're already separate enough without having to do too much to Shadow's role as a character than fine but it's not something I've generally felt has been the case as of late. 

Too recently, I've just felt that Shadow's position as a more friendly rival except bit more stoic has him pretty much just sharing the same occupied ground that Knuckles stands in as a character archetype. It's nothing too complicated beyond that. Whether or not Shadow has more complicated reasons for being who he is or not is completely irrelevant to what my concern is. 

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

So basically...

Knuckles is easy to write because his backstory doesn't have all the baggage Shadow has?

Is that what he's trying to say? If it is I don't know what that has to do with my initial point. My point wasn't about who was easier to write.

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Everyone's got their own ideas about what the characters are and what they should be like, true.

This is true. Different Strokes from different folks.

 

4 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

My problem with Shadow in the Archie comics and the games to a certain extent after a certain point was that he lost what made him stand out from someone like Knuckles. For a while he just felt like a second Knuckles, except maybe a bit more stoic, which I don't find interesting.  

In my head, whether it's an outdated thing or not, I still have Knuckles as that friendly rival character who has respect for Sonic but doesn't show it or hand-waves it off when people suggest he might. Seeing it done with Shadow in Issue 2 of Sonic Universe kind of threw me off a bit. I want their roles to be of a different beast so I'm more for this kind of harsher approach. 

That's partly because he indirectly took from Knuckles.

Still, what games in particular come to mind there?

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Neat when was the last time outside of this comic and a calendar sonic battle was referenced in significant degree let alone in regards to shadows characterization, which is what I meant.

Shadow the hedgehog a game that literally notorious, a game some say is the downfall of sonic games is referenced more in regards to shadow and lately in general.

She/he was referring to the game in general, I think. I haven't seen the original comment, though.

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

What separates Shadow from Knuckles should be emphasized a bit more. If it's just that he's smarter than Knuckles (which I assume is what you mean when you say "he could think and reason") than that's not really the part that I'm focusing on. Both characters have reasons for doing things. That's the basis of any character worth their salt. Whether or not that's remembered varies from interpretation to interpretation but that's generally what I believe to be true about them anyway. I don't see how that separates the two.

 

I was gonna say that one difference is that their concerns and actions are more abstract with Knuckles than with Shadow, but I suppose that can just as easily work the other way around:

Knuckles's primary concern has been the Master Emerald, not only for the immediate easy to abuse power, but because it keeps Angel Island--ergo his home and family legacy--sustained. His other outings are generally based more on his sensitivity regarding how easily influenced he can be and/or how there are things that need to be similarly protected. The latter is obviously more vague and variable depending on the circumstance, hence saying he can be more notional. 

Shadow, on the other hand, is generally willing to do what he thinks is necessary to deal with a problem, which sometimes means being stern and even forceful. However, his mission became more definitely about protecting the planet and it's people from whatever may threaten them, which is definitely more concrete.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't quite understand what you mean by the end of the statement?

There are, have been, and will certainly still be other people who miss their favorite characters even getting to show up, let alone be handed well. Of the numerous characters in this series, Shadow has been demonstratively the least of concern behind Tails and Sonic himself, if that.

46 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

So basically...

Knuckles is easy to write because his backstory doesn't have all the baggage Shadow has?

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Knuckles is easy to write because he is allowed to be dumb (sometimes).

Um...well...affirmative?

11 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The only one who doesn't is Cream because her life is pretty much set. She lives with her mom and Chao buddies and that's it. She has no occupation, personal goal, task imposed upon herself, or mission. She only takes action when something is taken from her. I guess Big counts as one who doesn't as well, though, even then I can at least say he's a fisherman.

 

Or if they happen to be around anyway.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Knuckles's primary concern has been the Master Emerald, not only for the immediate easy to abuse power, but because it keeps Angel Island--ergo his home and family legacy--sustained. His other outings are generally based more on his sensitivity regarding how easily influenced he can be and/or how there are things that need to be similarly protected. The latter is obviously more vague and variable depending on the circumstance, hence saying he can be more notional. 

Shadow, on the other hand, is generally willing to do what he thinks is necessary to deal with a problem, which sometimes means being stern and even forceful. However, his mission became more definitely about protecting the planet and it's people from whatever may threaten them, which is definitely more concrete.

I'm speaking in the most general of terms here. I'm just talking about the typical character archetype they occupy and how that relates to Sonic's character specifically. The typical rival character and what that means as far as the Sonic series is concerned, if you will. In that sense, the two of them have been sharing too similar a space for me and I'm more on board for something that makes the differences between what they are stand out a lot better. Shadow, especially lately, is a character that's felt kind of redundant because of how little they care to do anything with him.

I suppose it's simple for others to look past when they view Knuckles and Shadow a certain way. For example, in Team Sonic Racing, I can understand why Knuckles and Shadow wouldn't feel redundant because Shadow is more a straight rival where as Knuckles is just a friend. However, as I've stated, however outdated the thought may be, to me Knuckles is supposed to occupy the space of friendly rival and Shadow, I feel, could do with having a bit more than what they've been giving him. 

In Archie's case I just didn't see much of a difference at all. Both of them had complicated backstories in that comic (Knuckles even more so than Shadow actually) but their personalities and the way they carried themselves felt way too similar. Despite all the focus on Shadow, his stories didn't give that much of a different vibe from the ones I got out of Knuckles. I can't really say the same for Tails, Silver, or the Chaotix.