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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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Years of people bitching how "unfitting" Shadow was have no right to complain.

Haters wanted him to be a caricature of himself, well good job that's what he is. So I hope the haters are happy; they now have more fuel to hate this character and laugh at his expense because Sega wants to pander to these people.

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19 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I mean, I don't agree that this story is nothing so I don't consider that a fact. There's very little to be worried about on my end. I'm thoroughly enjoying this arc and so far my only concern is how they'll be able to top this once it's done.

Have fun then

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I don't think the general personality of Shadow here has been executed poorly. I feel this specific instance of it could have been handled better but it's nothing that deals with tweaking his personality, just the manner in which he saw fit to take care of things in this singular issue. If that's the execution you're talking about, then I agree.

I think tweaks could be made personally.  Mostly him interacting with team dark... at all. But at least in this instance my primary issue is like how it was exicuted in this past issue. It feels like shadow was written to fit what was needed rather than  story fitting the character and it shows and it isn't great.

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I'm only acknowledging the concern that he could fold too much into that personality that the reason for him thinking and acting the way he does is lost and he ends up being just an asshole rather than a guy with a harsher perspective. That's why I brought up TSR. He's got so little agency in that game that characters who aren't there, Espio and Charmy, do more to contribute to the plot than him somehow, despite Shadow's face being all over that game's marketing. Though, as I stated, I'm not worried about that as far as this book goes. To me the issue here is a very tiny one and only deals with better clarification rather than any heavy change.

I wouldn't ... I don't really care about TSR if that makes sense. Its a weird spin off game. Nothing matters and like no one contributes to the plot..it kinda just happens and folks get to say things. Its whatever.

 

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That said, I do still feel the games need to do something to make him not just feel like another Vegeta. Like he talks a bit gruffer but he's just another friend who has trouble admitting he's a friend despite being completely on the hero's side and having no real conflict with the way he handles things. I like the concept of Team Dark. The whole group of darker aligned heroes who have harsher methods and harsher ideals that can lead to inner conflict is an interesting thing. 

Sonic games would need to have stories of note again.

 

6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Years of people bitching how "unfitting" Shadow was have no right to complain.

Haters wanted him to be a caricature of himself, well good job that's what he is. So I hope the haters are happy; they now have more fuel to hate this character and laugh at his expense because Sega wants to pander to these people.

I don't think that's it. Its very easy to fall down the cynical hole. But I don't think its that, especially now where the guy in charge is openly considering adventure remakes and pandering to that nostalgia and and pandering to that nostalgia got forces shadow which is fine. If they were pandeirng to shadow was unfitting people , shadow would just be gone and he was for a while and it didn't help really.

The simple answer is they want to simplify his character, and his character doesn't work simple. They wish to avoid a lot of the adventure era stuff because they may see that as complications to what they may want to do .Eventually though if they are pandering to that nostalgia they are going to have to embrace it or fail. Or reboot, which is what I think they are gonna do.

But yeah,

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I wouldn't ... I don't really care about TSR if that makes sense. Its a weird spin off game. Nothing matters and like no one contributes to the plot..it kinda just happens and folks get to say things. Its whatever.

That's a bit of an oversimplification but if you don't care about it than it doesn't matter what I say about it regardless. It still stands as an example of the kind of direction they're taking him in and it's a game that they see value in. They've spoken about it as much. Expanding upon the universe by introducing Dodon Pa, a rich mogul who sells technology to planets all over the universe as a way to enrich the lore was an attempt at that. Feel free to ignore it if you so desire but it's definitely an example of their attempt to do things they think matter with the cast and Sonic's planet.

So long as they think it matters, it's going to have an effect and it seems like it already is.

 

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

That's a bit of an oversimplification but if you don't care about it than it doesn't matter what I say about it regardless. It still stands as an example of the kind of direction they're taking him in and it's a game that they see value in. They've spoken about it as much. Expanding upon the universe by introducing Dodon Pa, a rich mogul who sells technology to planets all over the universe as a way to enrich the lore was an attempt at that. Feel free to ignore it if you so desire but it's definitely an example of their attempt to do things they think matter with the cast and Sonic's planet.

So long as they think it matters, it's going to have an effect and it seems like it already is.

 

I don't really think it is at all, and I will continue to not think it will matter until any of it sticks. Its a weird spin off game and everyone will be different in the next game, that's my read. And considering that game didn't do well, I feel like its kinda guaranteed. I don't know man there's plenty of sonic stuff to get up in arms about, Its just a fun spin off game and I don't feel like it matters much.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't really think it is at all, and I will continue to not think it will matter until any of it sticks. Its a weird spin off game and everyone will be different in the next game, that's my read. And considering that game didn't do well, I feel like its kinda guaranteed. I don't know man there's plenty of sonic stuff to get up in arms about, Its just a fun spin off game and I don't feel like it matters much.

I didn't say anything about getting up and arms about it. I'm just saying that it makes no sense for me to dismiss it when it's a part of the puzzle. Yeah, of course the portrayal of the characters will stand to change next game because of how discombobulated SEGA is but that's true of any Sonic game. I don't find it a viable option to just ignore everything that comes out because of that though. It literally doesn't matter that TSR's a spin-off game. 

Also, there's no reason to talk as though I'm attempting to change your mind. I brought up TSR to support MY argument, not to change yours. I was clarifying things because it didn't seem like you understood why I brought it up in the first place. 

And TSR did fine.

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Just now, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I didn't say anything about getting up and arms about it. I'm just saying that it makes no sense for me to dismiss it when it's a part of the puzzle.

 

 

Ok so that's where we differ.

You think there's a puzzle. I think sega's throwing things at the wall because its very apparent the direction they probably should go in, but they don't quite wanna go in it yet.  I'm not saying you should ignore everything, it would be hypocritical of me considering I hold on true to " Sonic boom was indicative of more than people think it did " . However I don't think this game is apart of a puzzle. The spin off games are malleable so to speak . This isn't a puzzle piece to me, its like an extra bit of food.

Not trying to disrespect you or nothing.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Ok so that's where we differ.

You think there's a puzzle.

No. You're taking the word "puzzle" at face value. 

I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that there's value in examining his portrayal. TSR being a spin-off means nothing. It was brought up in the first place because there was a comparison in that reddit post to how he is in the IDW issues and it was suggested that it could be an example of the direction they wish to take him now. 

That isn't the same as suggesting they have a plan or that this new Shadow isn't the result of throwing shit at the wall. 

Nevermind. We're not even arguing about anything anymore. 

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Avoiding what most people are reading he comic for isn't quite a good idea, imho. (especially as IDW seems to have a rather large pool of "new fans" compared to IDW, that seems to have "having a good time with their favourite characters" as one of their main reason to read the comic). Not saying that we shouldn't have original characters in it, but trying to "avoid" more the official ones seems a bit… unproductive, to say the least when we take in consideration a big part of the current public of the comic-book.

Especially as one of the biggest complain about Archie was that the focus on original characters and SatAM-era character took too much screen time from the official characters, and that even in the more game-based post-SGW.

 

I think that the way they introduce characters is quite good for now. They added just a few, and all of them got their niche, and as they aren't as commons, they are building more interest. I feel that the best way to have more of them while keeping the current qualities would be simply to get back to a two-comics-a-month era (what we should be right now for 4 month, but delays). TBH I even think that about character that I would love to see return from past continuities : I would prefer them to take their time like they are doing here to reintroduce them when they'll make sense, if they want to reintroduce them.

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2 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Especially as how much the game character weren't focused on enough was the biggest criticism of even the post-SGW era.

Some criticism is worth ignoring.

Not this one though, just so no one gets the wrong idea...

(Naturally)

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7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I'm a bit hesitant to trust what is hardly different from a "my uncle works at Nintendo" story.

Even if it's true though, how much does that really change? Shadow gets cocky, does something risky, gets infected and zombotted just the same. And removing tension between the heroes and a character's psychological flaws doesn't sound like an improvement to the story.

"Shadow does something risky" =/= "Shadow goes full dumb and arrogant"

It makes things more complicated, I mean, Ian didn't say he wanted to remove Shadow's personality, did he? C'mon. I don't want him to be another Vegeta, I still want him to be a villain for his own reasons, and I enjoyed the "twist" but it was sadly at the expense of his character. I mean, both Sonic and Shadow have flaws in the issue, it was just the end that was dumb to me.

I should have known this, because SEGA is more in control here than before, and because Shadow has acted like that recently, so I should have seen it coming.

By the way, for those who have followed Ian on twitter, he is actually at a convention, so… there is your confirmation...

Moral of the story, PLEASE, go easy on Ian and the book, he's trying to do his best, as usual.

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Years of people bitching how "unfitting" Shadow was have no right to complain.

Haters wanted him to be a caricature of himself, well good job that's what he is. So I hope the haters are happy; they now have more fuel to hate this character and laugh at his expense because Sega wants to pander to these people.

The haters… they want Shadow completely gone, dead. So let's not listen to them, it brings more harm than good. Let's listen to those who actually care about the character.

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Ian should avoid game chatacters more and create more comic chatacters as he has more freedom as to how to write them

Ian should avoid writing Sonic and focus on his own OCs? He is doing both, I don't see why not. Have more freedom with comic characters, but have the game characters as protagonists and the focus. I mean, do we both like Sonic here? I don't understand your posts most of the time, sorry to say that, but you are antagonistic to the book in a way that's completely apathetic and makes little sense, like "don't focus on Sonic characters".

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3 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

"Shadow does something risky" =/= "Shadow goes full dumb and arrogant"

Without extra details, it might as well be the same thing.

The risky thing is fighting them to begin with, taking off his rings is just extra.

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2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Without extra details, it might as well be the same thing.

The risky thing is fighting them to begin with, taking off his rings is just extra.

It's his ultimate move, would have given more reason, more layers, it's risky and not dumb, as I said, than just fighting them and say "I'm the Ultimate dumbass", it would have been an epic move, so at least that. The details mean everything in stories, btw.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

More layers to what?

There's no reason for him to do that.

Excuse that, the reason given isn't enough to make it "better"....

Instead of having the reader go in like " oh boy, Shadow is gonna lose so bad,", taking out his inibitors would have been " oh boy, I wonder what's gonna happen, will he survive? Will he escape the horde of zombies? ". Besides giving him an epic moment. At least for me. Instead he literally went into the doom.

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9 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

image0.jpg

Ok.

Thanks SEGA, you are an idiot.

This probably isn't true. Even if it was this is basically what happened except with an added inhibitor reference. I don't get why this is getting so much traction.

How does that change anything about the decisions Shadow made during the scene? My problem with it comes down to that and this doesn't change it.

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9 hours ago, JosepHenry said:

image0.jpg

Ok.

Thanks SEGA, you are an idiot.

Oh. Well shoot, that actually gives my observation more context. 

Guess his reputation truly does precede him. 

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I'm a bit hesitant to trust what is hardly different from a "my uncle works at Nintendo" story.

Even if it's true though, how much does that really change? Shadow gets cocky, does something risky, gets infected and zombotted just the same. 

I briefly considered that, but it seems a mite detailed to simply be.

 

8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

That said, I DO see the possibility of issues arising if the TSR approach is allowed to fester where he's combative JUST to be combative and he isn't asserting a different ideal.

 

Pretty much the concern for a while. 

 

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

This is weird because forces shadow is really good. Guess it depends on the day. Also i'm not to worried, because if people say they don't like it. They will just change it, I dunno they don't seem to hard pressed on that front.

 

Ever get the feeling Shadow in Forces was one of those times where it's good because he was barely around? 

 

6 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

I'm only acknowledging the concern that he could fold too much into that personality that the reason for him thinking and acting the way he does is lost and he ends up being just an asshole rather than a guy with a harsher perspective. That's why I brought up TSR. He's got so little agency in that game that characters who aren't there, Espio and Charmy, do more to contribute to the plot than him somehow, despite Shadow's face being all over that game's marketing. 

 Hell, he didn't even have much of an introduction from what I remember.

As for his agency, 

6 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

That said, I do still feel the games need to do something to make him not just feel like another Vegeta. Like he talks a bit gruffer but he's just another friend who has trouble admitting he's a friend despite being completely on the hero's side and having no real conflict with the way he handles things. I like the concept of Team Dark. The whole group of darker aligned heroes who have harsher methods and harsher ideals that can lead to inner conflict is an interesting thing. 

 

 honestly, the key problem with Shadow is that he generally has nothing to do nowadays beyond the basic description of his role, if even that

And he was previously able to be accused of having too much. Much of the late Dreamcast and earlier Modern era games had him very involved in the mysterious, often darker background of what was going on, whether he was the primary focus or not. 06 had Mephiles' crucial connection to Solaris and the possible future of humanity turning Omega against Shadow because of the disaster, Rivals has him learn Dr. Nega's back story and make an implicit contrast with his, his game is self explanatory, and even Heroes has his amnesia play a part in the formation of Team Dark and existence of the Shadow Androids, to say nothing of being his return.

But now that things have calmed down due to SonicTeam going back to basics in favor of simplicity, that status quo he had such an eclipsing(heh) impact in defining is gone. The closest thus far has been Shattered Crystal(which is in Boom and thus has little to dredge anyway) and Forces, which was almost deliberately invoking that with Infinite. So now when Shadow shows up on the odd occasion, all he can really do is be vaguely stolid, limply insist he can get the job done before Sonic, and maybe have Rouge around to barely talk to. 

Team Sonic Racing really goes to show much of that, as he claims to be there to stop Eggman(as the effective "greater evil" this time) but doesn't have much to do against him for most of the story, he merely says Dodon Pa's name a few times( from what I remember), has little interaction with Rouge and especially Omega, and the implied disdain with Zavok certainly never comes up in the story for better or worse. All he's really there to do is compete with Sonic look like he's competing with Sonic. 

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I don't believe the interaction happened, but I'd buy that it did. Sega themselves have been trying to take the character in a certain direction, even if the games themselves never follow suit. If TSR Shadow is the future, I'll be worried. On the other hand, if Forces Shadow is thr future, I think this'll just blow over.

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It's giving sega too much credit to think they're this conscious about how Shadow his portrayed. 

I think most of the people who were around when he was conceived are just gone from the company or in higher positions where they don't influence the little details.

It doesn't read like a conscious change to me. Just that they're starting to forget who Shadow is supposed to be

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3 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

"Shadow does something risky" =/= "Shadow goes full dumb and arrogant"

What's so much more "dumb and arrogant" about him going "I'm the ULF I can't get infected! Oh no I can!" vs "my kaioken will protect me! Oh no it doesn't!"?

3 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

By the way, for those who have followed Ian on twitter, he is actually at a convention, so… there is your confirmation...

My friend's friend's friend talked to Ian at that convention and he said that Sega's making him make Shadow into a big poopy butt. This is confirmed, because Ian is at a convention.

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