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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I don't see any lack of real emotional conflict. I've been feeling the heaviness pretty consistently. I guess I just don't get what the problem is. I don't know what it's meant by "aren't really acting themselves". This seems like a relatively well-done portrayal of their characters and how they'd react to me. 

I wasn't looking for any particular kind of reaction to Shadow turning. They seem to be rather tied up with a lot of problems and dealing with it in different ways.

 

If they can't react to the big thing the book is supposedly is about, they shouldn't be in the book. Because it communicates effetely communicates when the character who might care, makes a face. And that's it. That you should not give a shit about this character. This character held no value to anyone and was only an angry idiot. If he couldn't find the time to make folks care about shadow. And not just a " He was my friend way " but also uh "Having a non morality having version of shadow just about is uh... no bueno. " they don't focus an entire story beat around that. Or don't include characters who wouldn't have anything to say on the situation.

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sonic's tired as hell. Amy's stressed out. The Chaotix are zeroed in on getting Charmy back despite the futility of it. Cream's having nightmares.

Those things are neat,  put those things in another issue.

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

The person closest to Shadow is Rouge and I thought her reaction was perfect for her character. A disheveled head-turn and an angry stomping off. 

 

Its not really, which brings me the 2nd issue on why the lack of reaction isn't good. Which is , no one contemplates anything. And the two people who should be contemplating things the most... aren't.

I don't want rouge to weep, ain't her style. However she's smart, but also more importantly. She's considerate. You know what would have been a thing should have considered in that moment that would have taken it from " barely a reaction " to " OH hey character development. That's she's the reason eggman is alive! She purposefully misdirected shadow and informed other parties so they could stop him from murdering eggman. If she would have minded her business they wouldn't have happened. She thought she knew better in that situation and it directly resulted in the loss of her friend. She should be reacting to this thing, that would have been a cool development for that character .She would have actually had like...development. But we got tsun tsun bat lady.

Now I will pride this point with a caveat. Given some hypothetical issues.

Sega may not have wanted her to give any type of bigger reaction, even if she may have involved in the situations starting point. Segahas made a thing that team is barely a team and doesn't seem to care much about eachother. So ... yeah , nothing else to say about that. If it turns out that was the case i'll retract my statement. While I don't think you can blame sega for scene direction and such , that's one of those editorials that would legit effect everything about that situation. And would mean that he would have to fill time with other characters doing stuff. (  I mean I would make the argument that if you can't have the characters react because sega's telling you, you can't. Maybe don't have things like that happen to the characters. Maybe you should try writing around the restrictions instead of hitting a brick wall of characterization blockage, but that's another conversation for another time )

Same suggestion for sonic. Do I want him weeping? God no that's reserved for amy and tails. However, having a moment where he wanted to call shadow dumb. And then realized " Oh hey , he wanted to kill the guy who made this entire thing happen... am I the big dumb " even if he would have shook it off. Him having a thought would have indication that he cared to some degree.

But hold on, I would like to rewind to last year real quick. Where I said and i'm paraphrasing a bit " Having a conflict where eggman is the focus a character you can't kill, in a children's comic where the protagonist can't even humor the idea murder is good will make the entire interaction between these two characters be rendered pointless. Because it will never be addressed in any significant degree " . And that's what happened, it wasn't even addressed no one gave a crap shadow was gone. And that communicates to the reader they shouldn't care either.

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The intention was a mixture of taking advantage of the latest outing from Sonic at the time as well as the fact that he couldn't resist the set-up that the game had at the very end of it. He's spoken about how the mileage may vary on whether or not it was a good idea to do so recently.

Nothing's perfect after all. I will say I do think he's capitalized on a bit more than just clarifying that Amy held things together but that depends on what details you care about. 

 

Oh I know that much, I was being partially facetious.

Still, sucks that we haven't had much else, which is part of why Shadow sucks.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Oh I know that much, I was being partially facetious.

Still, sucks that we haven't had much else, which is part of why Shadow sucks.

I'm still in the camp that's not really seeing where the heavy disparity is coming from.

It's strange because when disagreements happen, I'm usually able to at least see where it's coming from and understand despite disagreeing but I'm finding that I'm just not seeing what the issues are. At least,not to the heavy extent you guys are. 

I suppose that's okay. It means I'm enjoying the book more but it's a little frustrating too because its inableling me from even attempting to converse about it. I mostly just post my thoughts on the issue and pop in and out from time to time.

Like, I don't think Shadow sucks here. I've heard all the reasons why people think he does and I don't agree so I just move on. 

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I suppose it depends on what you're getting out of a character/villain, whether in impact or in general.

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

True but at least neo was basically insane and his theme is even more so trying to prove hes the real sonic. Why idw made him go dragon again when his neo form was trashing sonic and gang is still odd

Oh, I get that much, since it was basically the bulk of his role in Heroes.

I just meant that he didn't really get to just do much on his own before inevitably transforming back. Issue 7 is the most he's ever gotten to do (although I guess you could count Archie issues 157 or whatever if it mattered).

Which sorta brings me back to my [second?] thought regarding this arc's establishment.

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

All I know the zeti for is their goofy clown car them music.  The green one having a ton of "art" and them draining the earth's life force??

youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRffoTiGE

You know, I was trying to decide if you had a point, but then I realized

As for the Deadly Six, they are an odd bunch. If little else, they did initially emphasize each of them as having their own particular motifs, abilities, and/or fighting styles.

 

16 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Shadow's been better since he was turned.

It answered one of the biggest questions I've ever had since 3 days ago.

Does Shadow really need his skates to be fast?

Yes, yes he does. And he's not even that fast without them.

True dat.

Although he's still a game Sonic character.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose it depends on what you're getting out of a character/villain, whether in impact or in general.

Sure. 

I suppose the other reason I'm not engaging as much with the thread is because there's a part of me that's a little saddened by the disconnect in our opinions. I'm finally getting the Sonic comic I've always wanted but the thread as a whole seems to not like it so the excitement I have to talk about it is a bit tempered. Which is a shame. I wish I could just come on here and gush about something that's bringing me joy from the series.

Like, fucking finally, SOMETHING is bringing me consistent joy from this series. 

Again though, not mad. Definitely a bit sad but not angry.

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I said it before, but every fan wants something different out of this series; what you may think is amazing, someone else might find just alright. 

 

There's literally no way for everyone's opinions are ever going to coincide with each other, and given the schizophrenic nature of this franchise, that's likely never going to happen...ever.

 

So yea, this book is either the most amazing thing since sliced bread to you, but is boring shlock filled with OOC characters to another. There's literally never going to be a consensus if people aren't willing to be a little open minded. 

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sure. 

I suppose the other reason I'm not engaging as much with the thread is because there's a part of me that's a little saddened by the disconnect in our opinions. I'm finally getting the Sonic comic I've always wanted but the thread as a whole seems to not like it so the excitement I have to talk about it is a bit tempered. Which is a shame. I wish I could just come on here and gush about something that's bringing me joy from the series.

Like, fucking finally, SOMETHING is bringing me consistent joy from this series. 

Again though, not mad. Definitely a bit sad but not angry.

Oh, I was actually talking to genie jez. That happens sometimes. 

32 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm still in the camp that's not really seeing where the heavy disparity is coming from.

It's strange because when disagreements happen, I'm usually able to at least see where it's coming from and understand despite disagreeing but I'm finding that I'm just not seeing what the issues are. At least,not to the heavy extent you guys are. 

I suppose that's okay. It means I'm enjoying the book more but it's a little frustrating too because its inableling me from even attempting to converse about it. I mostly just post my thoughts on the issue and pop in and out from time to time.

Like, I don't think Shadow sucks here. I've heard all the reasons why people think he does and I don't agree so I just move on. 

What details were you talking about before? 

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48 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The intention was a mixture of taking advantage of the latest outing from Sonic at the time as well as the fact that he couldn't resist the set-up that the game had at the very end of it. He's spoken about how the mileage may vary on whether or not it was a good idea to do so recently.

Nothing's perfect after all. I will say I do think he's capitalized on a bit more than just clarifying that Amy held things together but that depends on what details you care about. 

 

It doesn't feel like it. Forces hasn't had any real significance on the plot besides amy spouting exposition , all the narrative that is supposedly connected to forces has yet to manifest anything specific  to it. As of the last issue, lost world has manifested more tangible elements to the narrative as forces. Not only have they been manifested in some areas they have been actively denied like infinite himself. This could change, right? There's time, but as of currently its just... a buncha exposition. Which kinda sucks for amy because she's a lot more interesting than being an exposition machine for forces of all things.

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Hmm, I guess the arc could benefit from cutting down the character count to make for better focus rather than trying to do what it usually does and cram a whole bunch in one issue. I notice the issues with characterization everyone brings up tend to be in the bigger ensemble issues like this one and the Master Overlord fight. 

I feel like the issue with this is the lack of other books? Like usually when things have events there are other books to explain what's happening with everyone. But the only other book has nothing to do with this. Now its like year 2 and maybe they can't ask for like 3 books, but then i would just ask if you feel as though you don't have the room to tell a story... why tell that story at this time? Till you have some clout and some other books. I dunno

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I think people's issues are that the overly long arcs and coming at the expense of the character's personalities to serve the plot; rather than the plot serving the characters. 

This isn't great , but its this in combination with " nothing seems like it matters " , events do weird stuff with characters all the time  , but usually there are lasting effects ( for better or for worse ) after the fact. DC regularly uses huge events to reboot its universe. Not expecting a reboot or nothing , but like the characters are gonna be fine and reset after this is over and it will most likely have little effect on their interactions. And while they may change in future. At least in year 1 to 2, its not mattering much besides set up. The stories that he's writing seem contradictory to the space in which he can write them. Why not start off with different stories.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I said it before, but every fan wants something different out of this series; what you may think is amazing, someone else might find just alright. 

 

There's literally no way for everyone's opinions are ever going to coincide with each other, and given the schizophrenic nature of this franchise, that's likely never going to happen...ever.

 

So yea, this book is either the most amazing thing since sliced bread to you, but is boring shlock filled with OOC characters to another. There's literally never going to be a consensus if people aren't willing to be a little open minded. 

Well, I didn't say it was perfect or anything. The struggle is mostly the fallout from when it comes to engaging with the community here as a result. Often, when you feel you're too lonely on one side of a debate you tend to not want to engage in it as much. Especially if you're not a combative person. Even worse if you're not able to fully understand why the other side feels the way they do. Most of what I've gotten in response to my explanations for why I like it is just people talking about it not being enough for them or having a different opinion on how they think a character should act. 

I can be happy about the book all I want but if the people I chill with aren't enjoying it then there's going to eventually come a point where there's only going to be so much you'll get out of a discussion and an argument. After a certain point, neglecting the side of you that wants to actually share your enthusiasm for something with someone else for too long just makes you feel kind of bad. 

So I pop in to give thoughts on the latest issue, skim through the thread, and then peace out mostly. I think this is the most I've been talking about it because I've been trying to sort out what it is I've been feeling.

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18 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Well, I didn't say it was perfect or anything. The struggle is mostly the fallout from when it comes to engaging with the community here as a result. Often, when you feel you're too lonely on one side of a debate you tend to not want to engage in it as much. Especially if you're not a combative person. Even worse if you're not able to fully understand why the other side feels the way they do. Most of what I've gotten in response to my explanations for why I like it is just people talking about it not being enough for them or having a different opinion on how they think a character should act. 

I can be happy about the book all I want but if the people I chill with aren't enjoying it then there's going to eventually come a point where there's only going to be so much you'll get out of a discussion and an argument. After a certain point, neglecting the side of you that wants to actually share your enthusiasm for something with someone else for too long just makes you feel kind of bad. 

So I pop in to give thoughts on the latest issue, skim through the thread, and then peace out mostly. I think this is the most I've been talking about it because I've been trying to sort out what it is I've been feeling.

You treat the comedic elements of Sonic X as an intentional style for that particular comic/cartoon where as I view it as a faithful attempt to stay true to what the series is all about. The lack of comedy or upbeat moments in this story is one of a few reasons I find it nearly as bad as 06's story.

It is clear this arc draws inspiration from the Walking Dead and I feel that a Sonic zombie story should have something like Zombieland as its inspiration.

 

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1 hour ago, Slashy said:

You treat the comedic elements of Sonic X as an intentional style for that particular comic/cartoon where as I view it as a faithful attempt to stay true to what the series is all about. The lack of comedy or upbeat moments in this story is one of a few reasons I find it nearly as bad as 06's story.

It is clear this arc draws inspiration from the Walking Dead and I feel that a Sonic zombie story should have something like Zombieland as its inspiration.

I don't see how that's a response to what I said there but okay. 

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I don't see how that's a response to what I said there but okay. 

Moreso giving an example of the fact that I don't think there is anyway I can enjoy this arc anymore.

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1 hour ago, Slashy said:

Moreso giving an example of the fact that I don't think there is anyway I can enjoy this arc anymore.

That's fine but I'm not sure what the point in telling me that was. Was it so that I could know there's more people who don't like it? I'm aware of that.

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13 hours ago, Wraith said:

He has a larger than life style and likes to cram as many characters, plot points, etc into a story as possible and move as quick as he can when Zelda imo should be quieter and slower paced. 

If this is the case, what is your opinion on Akira Himekawa's Zelda manga? I only have his Ocarina of Time series, and I think he did the game well enough. And then there's a Twilight Princess series, where he's taking a lot of time to explore the story, being longer than other Zelda series so far.

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4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Shadow's been better since he was turned.

This is gonna trigger Shadow fans, I can feel it. Anyway, it sucks because now he's even more simplified and the Whole situation could have been explored more.

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

True but at least neo was basically insane and his theme is even more so trying to prove hes the real sonic. Why idw made him go dragon again when his neo form was trashing sonic and gang is still odd

All I know the zeti for is their goofy clown car them music.  The green one having a ton of "art" and them draining the earth's life force??

Neo was great character-wise, I still think the dragon should have been his second form and then a different smaller form altogether as final one, a la Sigma in Worlds Unite, and most DBZ villains.

The Zeti are pretty much that, plus unfitting dark lines.

Also, this thread is weird with its overthinking, and… Sonic X? I get it these arcs are long, I wasn't a fan of the Shattered World Saga lasting for 3 full years, I already believe a year and a half for zombots is stretching it, but… if Ian takes it to a new direction, I can see it working. Universe's 4 issue arcs are already a thing with Tangle & Whisper, as for the next big arc, it's likely a 6-8 issue thing.

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2 hours ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

If this is the case, what is your opinion on Akira Himekawa's Zelda manga? I only have his Ocarina of Time series, and I think he did the game well enough. And then there's a Twilight Princess series, where he's taking a lot of time to explore the story, being longer than other Zelda series so far.

Himekawa is two women. 

I think the art is very good as is the characterization. Almost every original addition to the story is carefully considered and usually makes sense. 

Speeding through every game in 1-2 volumes is less than ideal, though. Pretty much nothing gets time to breathe. It's the only flaw I have with the series but it's a pretty big one 

I liked the 4 Swords one the best when I was a kid, but I haven't read the Twilight Princess one at all yet. It sounds like it fixed some problems with both the game's story and the other manga adaptations. 

 

 

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Hey @Dr. Detective Mike, sorry to hear I've been dragging down the dialog around the comic for you. It's not even my intention to do as such. I just find that if I explain my stance it becomes easier for eth other party to see where I'm coming from. It's why I enjoy seeing you share your enthusiasm as it may highlight something I missed. So again I apologize for making the surrounding conversations unpleasant to partake in. So let's see if we can't make a negative viewpoint a point of interesting discourse.

As should be obvious by now, Amy is one of my favorites and I always have high hopes for her appearances. Since issue two however she has been losing her shine to me and our most recent issue has only made it worse. To me Amy is an always bubbly, optimistic, energetic, mood maker who keeps everyone's spirits high. Yet in the most recent issue she was as worn down as Sonic and freaking out about the possible loss of a team. That's a pretty big contrast right there, and the problem I have is I didn't get to see it happen. I've mostly seen how she normally is, yet this issue she was as worn down as Sonic and all we've gotten are hints to what she has been going through. It's why I enjoyed the Chaotix's introduction the zombot problem as I saw them being them in their typical environment, facing the threat head on and how there normal approaches are affected by the scenario, seeing the consequences of their normal actions in a very unnormal situation, and the settling of dread for realizing their normal methods aren't going to cut it in this case and has lost them Charmy. I got all of that and loved the issue as a result. Cream has talked about the nightmares she's been having and what she has been up to, and while it was a short scene, it felt earned with how recently we had seen her and have it fresh in our minds what she went through and lost. But Amy is in the command center and has nothing showing us the buildup of how she got here from when we last saw her. What could this normally impossible to discourage character have seen and gone through by this point to leave her so worn and battered? I haven't seen it, and in two months I'll be getting the payoff of a character arc that I haven't seen happen yet, despite it being implied to transpire. SO sure there is emotion and weight to what she is experiencing, but I want to see her experiences that led to the emotional weight on her. the weight alone is not enough for me, especially since I saw what the Chaotix and Cream went through before seeing them at the points they are at.

In short, I feel no connection to Amy's current emotional state because I didn't see how she got there and I know the payoff to that emotional state is coming down the road. I kind of hope that maybe her issue will have some flashback scenes to establish how she ended up in the state she is. Sure it may sound like I'm asking for some hand holding when I should just presume the base human situation of people under your command falling to an unstoppable force wrecks you pretty bad, but if I just make that assessment then I also cut out Amy and her character and my ability to sympathize with her personally as a unique individual and not just another survivor of this mess. She's a main character and the one in charge of keeping refugees organized during this mess. If anyone should be getting some focus in this scenario it's her, yet she barely even gets more than the most basic of lines of dialogue before being dragged off to be Captain Commander Rose again. the bubbly energetic girl who never lets anything get her down is down and worn out, and I didn't see it happen. I have to just presume what happened, and for a main character playing a major role in a crisis situation I find that unacceptable. You're obviously of a different mindset and stance on that, and so I would love to hear you demonstrate to me what makes this one concern of mine something that makes the book exciting. My biases and wants are sure to be blinding me to something, so I always appreciate seeing input that shines things in a better light.

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I think your problem is that you want an Amy centric story, but this really isn't an Amy centric arc. It's the same problem people are having with what happened with Shadow. Sure, Amy is a main character but she's not one of the central characters of this arc. She just happens to be apart of a larger ensemble that shares the spotlight with many other main characters.

Sonic is the only real central character of this arc, as it's his perspective we focus on in any given issue, and any other character's perspectives tend to shift depending on if he's present or not. Sonic is generally out trying to save people, so he's really not interacting with Amy much so there's no real reason for her to be the focus. It's the same thing with Shadow, the emotional connection of him being turned into a zombot was not the focus of the issue,  just the fact that he turned and adding the conflict at hand.

The focus of this arc isn't on any individual character, it's on how the characters can collectively deal with this situation with Sonic at the center of it, since he's the heroic main character who's trying to solve it.  So it's better to look at this as an ensemble piece, rather than any arc focusing on a specific main character(s)

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13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That's she's the reason eggman is alive! She purposefully misdirected shadow and informed other parties so they could stop him from murdering eggman. If she would have minded her business they wouldn't have happened. She thought she knew better in that situation and it directly resulted in the loss of her friend. She should be reacting to this thing, that would have been a cool development for that character .She would have actually had like...development. But we got tsun tsun bat lady.

Now that you bring it up, was that explicitly what she was doing?

It's quite a while since I read most of the early issues and that one in particular is not a priority, but from what I recall, she basically sent a tip to the Chaotix because she thought they'd be able to sniff out Eggman and figure out what he's up to and used that to bullshit her way out of Vector blaming her for the fight.

9 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

Neo was great character-wise, I still think the dragon should have been his second form and then a different smaller form altogether as final one, a la Sigma in Worlds Unite, and most DBZ villains.

The Zeti are pretty much that, plus unfitting dark lines.

Yeah, actually, that might've been a better way of using it. Though they probably could've just milked Neo Metal himself being around more.

Also, nani?

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

To me Amy is an always bubbly, optimistic, energetic, mood maker who keeps everyone's spirits high. Yet in the most recent issue she was as worn down as Sonic and freaking out about the possible loss of a team. That's a pretty big contrast right there, and the problem I have is I didn't get to see it happen. I've mostly seen how she normally is, yet this issue she was as worn down as Sonic and all we've gotten are hints to what she has been going through.

But Amy is in the command center and has nothing showing us the buildup of how she got here from when we last saw her. What could this normally impossible to discourage character have seen and gone through by this point to leave her so worn and battered? I haven't seen it, and in two months I'll be getting the payoff of a character arc that I haven't seen happen yet, despite it being implied to transpire. SO sure there is emotion and weight to what she is experiencing, but I want to see her experiences that led to the emotional weight on her. the weight alone is not enough for me, especially since I saw what the Chaotix and Cream went through before seeing them at the points they are at.

In short, I feel no connection to Amy's current emotional state because I didn't see how she got there and I know the payoff to that emotional state is coming down the road. I kind of hope that maybe her issue will have some flashback scenes to establish how she ended up in the state she is. Sure it may sound like I'm asking for some hand holding when I should just presume the base human situation of people under your command falling to an unstoppable force wrecks you pretty bad, but if I just make that assessment then I also cut out Amy and her character and my ability to sympathize with her personally as a unique individual and not just another survivor of this mess. She's a main character and the one in charge of keeping refugees organized during this mess. If anyone should be getting some focus in this scenario it's her, yet she barely even gets more than the most basic of lines of dialogue before being dragged off to be Captain Commander Rose again. the bubbly energetic girl who never lets anything get her down is down and worn out, and I didn't see it happen. I have to just presume what happened, and for a main character playing a major role in a crisis situation I find that unacceptable.

Good post..

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

It's why I enjoyed the Chaotix's introduction the zombot problem as I saw them being them in their typical environment, facing the threat head on and how there normal approaches are affected by the scenario, seeing the consequences of their normal actions in a very unnormal situation, and the settling of dread for realizing their normal methods aren't going to cut it in this case and has lost them Charmy. I got all of that and loved the issue as a result. 

Which funny, considering the Chaotix outside of Charmy have gotten some of the least focus in this comic otherwise.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Sonic is the only real central character of this arc, as it's his perspective we focus on in any given issue, and any other character's perspectives tend to shift depending on if he's present or not. 

The focus of this arc isn't on any individual character, it's on how the characters can collectively deal with this situation with Sonic at the center of it, since he's the heroic main character who's trying to solve it.  So it's better to look at this as an ensemble piece, rather than any arc focusing on a specific main character(s)

So essentially what many of the games have been for the last decade?

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