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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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19 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

I remember Zazz, Zomom, and Master Zik making Mega Man shoot himself in the head.

I mean, it was the latter, but yeah. Definitely one of the highlights.

34 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

For starters, they actually live up to their name—Master Zik makes Megaman almost execute himself by forcing him to point a charged Buster Shot at his head.

Almost nothing--I'm pretty sure there was smoke where his head is.

Good thing he's already a robot.

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Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

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53 minutes ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

No more major OCs please. The main cast isn't well utilized as it is.

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1 hour ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

1) With exception o teleportation tech, FInitevus and Starline aren't that similar. They evil scientists, but dr Ellidy wasn't expy of Chuck. Si if you're asking if I want someone just vaguely remind me of character x, then connection is too loose for me to care either way. It't just recycling some tropes.

2) None of characters you mentioned were that great. But even if you suggested my favorites, like Elias, I still don't feel the need for them. I rather move forward. (Not to mention how hard would be to recreated some of them).

3) With current model of 1-part stories there is no place for bigger OCs, even when we get a spin-off book it. Right now we could use more villains and Jewel/ElderScruffy/Vanilla sort of civilians, just important enough to make world more alive, not enough to take screen time.

My suggestion: give Amy second-in-command to give face to Restoration. Later that character would take over when we get bored with leader-Amy concept.

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15 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I think your problem is that you want an Amy centric story, but this really isn't an Amy centric arc. It's the same problem people are having with what happened with Shadow. Sure, Amy is a main character but she's not one of the central characters of this arc. She just happens to be apart of a larger ensemble that shares the spotlight with many other main characters.

Sonic is the only real central character of this arc, as it's his perspective we focus on in any given issue, and any other character's perspectives tend to shift depending on if he's present or not. Sonic is generally out trying to save people, so he's really not interacting with Amy much so there's no real reason for her to be the focus. It's the same thing with Shadow, the emotional connection of him being turned into a zombot was not the focus of the issue,  just the fact that he turned and adding the conflict at hand.

The focus of this arc isn't on any individual character, it's on how the characters can collectively deal with this situation with Sonic at the center of it, since he's the heroic main character who's trying to solve it.  So it's better to look at this as an ensemble piece, rather than any arc focusing on a specific main character(s)

I may be an Amy fan and wouldn't mind an Amy centric arc, but that isn't really my problem here. I've miscommunicated it it seems, so if you'll allow me to more concise.

My problem with Amy is her use and an upcoming payoff issue for her. When Sonic got infected she was there for the that and was her normal self. Now she is worn down from the long draw out battle and losses with the zombot crisis. In two months we'll be seeing her have a big battle likely serving as the climax of her arc during this story. We have a beginning and we have an end. The problem is the middle isn't there and it just rubs me the wrong way and is why I hope in an issue where she is sharing screen time with Cream and the Chaotix that there'll be some room for flashbacks to fill in the middle. I doubt it though as the IDW books are not dense enough to pull that off. I expect to be disappointed which is a shame but it is what it is.

But, if I look at this from the perspective of Sonic, I still don't like because his reaction to this major change in Amy as it kind of goes against my expectations of Sonic. Sonic is supposed to get angry and take action when he sees an injustice, and there are few greater injustices than seeing an optimistic person reduced to stressed out and desperate due to a world ending plague being unleashed on it. But there isn't any anger on Sonic's part, and while that is fine, the lack of anger isn't explored when it should be. After all, this whole mess is his fault for sparing Eggman, so a lot of his anger should be aimed inward creating character conflict like @Shadowlax has been demanding. Instead, Shadow could be removed entirely from the IDW run so far and nothing of any real interest would be lost to me. For all of my complaints about detailed and dense story telling, no less how Amy has been handled this arc, at least no one has been as useless and unnecessary as Shadow. And frankly that sucks. I miss introspective I'll do this myself Shadow because he knows the dangers and his abilities. Egocentric my pride before the world Shadow is a waste of space in my opinion which plain sucks. Had Shadow been more introspective as he was at one point in this franchise, his engagements with Sonic would have been rich dialogue and philosophical battles instead of shoving matches which would have brought a heck of a lot more weight to the proceedings. At that point, seeing Shadow fall to the zombots and Amy being worn down, Sonic just might have had one of those rare switch flip moments of his were his good humor disappears and he's all business. It would have been a moment of great character study and to see one of Sonic's rare personality facets that has almost always only ever been implied in rare character data. Of course, this is the problem with a licensed book when SEGA is in the midst of trying to simplify the brand image into a static picture.

Anyway, much as I am entertained by Amy and wouldn't mind an Amy centric arc, my problem is a lot more complex than how she alone has been handled this arc. Pacing, use of Shadow, not knowing if plot is more important than character or vice versa, lack of a sense of adventure and discovery, my general disdain for zombie stories and apocalyptic settings, and on and on. I used Amy as my example for two primary reasons. One, she is one of my favorites so if someone ( @Dr. Detective Mike in this case with the original post) could point out the good I was missing for what I found to be incomplete storytelling, it would be an easy way for me to latch on. Two, because she is one of my favorites it's a lot easier for me to talk about things that are bugging me using her as a basis. I didn't expect to get an Amy debate going though really, I should know better. But, Omega saved this issue for me so I'm still enjoying myself and hoping the story and use of the characters will do something I enjoy more sooner rather than later.

Speaking of Amy, the whole drop her crush thing always gets under my skin. Amy as I know her wouldn't even be in the story at all if she didn't have her crush. Chasing after Sonic and the adventures she had as a result is what allowed her to grow into the character she is. If she didn't have it she wouldn't partake in his adventures or likely even care about someone who can more than take care of themselves, giving her no reason to exist. As an Amy fan I'll glad take a few bad flanderizations of her crush if it means I will still get her going forward at all. I'd rather have good writing than bad (SA2 is still probably my favorite game with her in it and one of the few times Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy actually feel like they are on an adventure together), but I'll always take bad over none at all. Sure that makes me a bad fan, but if you give someone enough chances they might do something good. If you take something away, it's just gone, and that isn't what I want.

23 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

My suggestion: give Amy second-in-command to give face to Restoration. Later that character would take over when we get bored with leader-Amy concept.

I've actually suggested on plenty of occasions in the past this would be a great place to drop in the FFs if they were ever brought into the IDW books. Heck, the fallout from the zombot arc is almost perfect for them.

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3 hours ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

Yes, but Starline is more of a Snively type, which I don't like either, Starline sounds more interesting.

Geoffrey, do we really need another one like that?

Hope, there is technically no point in having another Maria, the point of Shadow's character is the lack of Maria, and moving on, so...

Mina was a mixed bag, but I'm not sure.

Lien-Da... I know expies are never gonna happen, but I do want another badass female villain, so definitely, somebody power hungry. Same for Scourge, a criminal type of character.

And we can also add the Freedom Fighters and Sticks at this point… RIP, look, I'm not sure if I (as well as other people) would like possible expies or be upset over the lack of the original characters and them getting replaced, I really don't know if I'm ready.

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8 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Damn good. Which is telling, because I’m not particularly fond of them otherwise.

And considering they were only in Worlds Unite, which I fucking hate, that’s a massive compliment.

For starters, they actually live up to their name—Master Zik makes Megaman almost execute himself by forcing him to point a charged Buster Shot at his head. And the six of them could have wiped out the entire combined force of Heroes of Sega and Capcom cast in one fell swoop were it not for the fact that they were on their home turf.

I’d go so far as to say they were the few good  things about Worlds Unite.

So are they like interesting characters in it or are they just more "threatening" and thus good

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

So are they like interesting characters in it or are they just more "threatening" and thus good

They were written competent, the same way last issue or "Battle for Angel Island" had everyone well written. Maybe even to smaller degree.

What I'm trying to say it that Unite had Sonic cast, Megaman cast, Boom Cast, Mega X cast and few extras, so D6 didn't had much time to shine. They fought, threw few one-liners and that's it.

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7 hours ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

Hm...I'm not sure. 

Aside from maybe Mina(depending on what aspect you're replicating), each of those characters had a specific place and role they fit that's not really convenient at this time.

Also Starline is just as much Snively. 

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24 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Hm...I'm not sure. 

Aside from maybe Mina(depending on what aspect you're replicating), each of those characters had a specific place and role they fit that's not really convenient at this time.

Also Starline is just as much Snively. 

What do you mean by "not really convenient at this time"?

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8 hours ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

I'd only be interested in a Geoffrey expy.

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3 hours ago, Wraith said:

So are they like interesting characters in it or are they just more "threatening" and thus good

Mm, primarily the latter? Which was great for Master Zik, given the implications of his seniority within the group.

As for the others though, I can't really speak for Zazz and Zomom since they're the theoretically simplest anyway, but I recall the counterpart issue with Zavok, Zor, and Zeena being... weird with the former two. Zor was effectively the listless leader there and Zavok was noticeably more brutish/oafish, even losing his shit when Zeena gets drenched by a fire hydrant; which I guess is funny, but not what you'd expect from him at that point. Those fight books we're handled by guest writers and later Ms Baker, so its possible they skimmed the basic details, but didn't retain much beyond the idea that they are collectively goofy. 

Otherwise, they weren't really given much room to really be characters. Aside from Zik and debatably Zeena, Zavok had some neat moments early on and in defeat by controlling Orbot under Eggman's nose, working with Sigma long enough to get an upgrade from their powers, and later refusing to surrender to Sally because he'd rather die in battle(before fainting anyway), but that's about it.

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21 minutes ago, lulzers said:

What do you mean by "not really convenient at this time"?

You mean aside from being in a too zombie outbreak? 

They each belonged to a particular faction or even family that informed their actions and drive in the comic. They also had a particular relationship or dynamic to at least one of the main character, something only Starline has at the moment. 

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9 hours ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

please no, Geoffrey is a really bad character and he would bring nothing to the table other then someone Sonic can argue with and he already has plenty of other characters to bounc off, Lien-Da is just a very boring character who mostly didn't do anything other then just stand arround giving orders standing there, 

another pop-idol character would be a nice idea, and Hope would either go right or wrong because human characters either tend to be very boring in the Sonic universe.

That said I would say I believe Starline really surpassed Dr Finitvus he's already more original in design and  Finitvus often just seem evil for the sake of being evil while Starline's evil motivations comes from him idolizing Eggman. So I personally consider him the Anti-Tails, (or eh..the anti-Amy for the part of the fandom that believe Starline's feelings for Eggman are romantic of nature lololol) that and Starline seems to have a bit more of depth.

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7 minutes ago, Kellodrawsalot said:

please no, Geoffrey is a really bad character and he would bring nothing to the table other then someone Sonic can argue with and he already has plenty of other characters to bounc off, Lien-Da is just a very boring character who mostly didn't do anything other then just stand arround giving orders standing there, 

another pop-idol character would be a nice idea, and Hope would either go right or wrong because human characters either tend to be very boring in the Sonic universe.

That said I would say I believe Starline really surpassed Dr Finitvus he's already more original in design and  Finitvus often just seem evil for the sake of being evil while Starline's evil motivations comes from him idolizing Eggman. So I personally consider him the Anti-Tails, (or eh..the anti-Amy for the part of the fandom that believe Starline's feelings for Eggman are romantic of nature lololol) that and Starline seems to have a bit more of depth.

Pop-idol?

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9 hours ago, lulzers said:

Say, what if IDW made expies of Geoffrey St. John, Mina Mongoose, Lien-Da, and Hope Kintobor respectively? We've already got a Dr. Finitevus expy in the form of Starline.

Not now. As someone already mentioned I would like to spend time with the game cast more, and TBH I kinda would like to see the new characters we already have interact with the characters and world more to a significant degree.

That said in specific

Geoffrey sucks

A MINA TYPE HAS A LOT OF POTENTIAL AND WE NEED TO HAVE AN ENTIRE CONVERSATION HOLY SHIT,

Lien-da also has some potential,

Nah on the humans, they aren't being used right now. I don't even know what you do with hope at this point. She would just be... a person. So she would either be chriss thorndyke which we don't need. And shadow's currently being characterized as loner extreme , so i'm gonna guess no maria replacement shit is happening either. She would just kinda be around

I actually i'm not too fond of starline in the sense that's he's still under eggman, I will like him more when he becomes his own villian

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

A MINA TYPE HAS A LOT OF POTENTIAL AND WE NEED TO HAVE AN ENTIRE CONVERSATION HOLY SHIT,

I actually i'm not too fond of starline in the sense that's he's still under eggman, I will like him more when he becomes his own villian

I do question your problem with Starline, considering that his whole deal is being Eggman fanboy.

But right now I'm way more curious about Mina. Really? She was that great?

For unaware, Mina Mongoose was probably biggest characters  introduced by Bollers, biggest Archie Sonic writer after Flynn and Penders. She had super speed, was a great singer and personality that makes me think 'romance anime girl' : a bit shy, pure hearted and had hidden crush on Sonic (Bollers was big on melodrama). Honestly she was a little on Mary Sue side, but never to the point of being obnoxious. Most interesting thing I remember about her was that she tried to join FF only to realize she's not good handling heat of the action. It's rare to see superpowered being that won't instantly rob bank or join Avengers.
After Flynn stop 'soap opera' tone, there wasn't much room for her. Finally she played major role during "Mecha Sally" arc in plot about trusting Nicole which was... there. It was decent arc for Nicole, but Mina was afraid, made a song, thing got depressing for more-less unrelated reason, and several issues later she just concluded she was wrong and apologized. Yiiipie. Also, I don't think singers are such a great idea in a sound-lacking media like comic.

So yeah, character with big focus for a while. Not bad just kinda...there. That is my take on her. Yours?

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12 minutes ago, Kellodrawsalot said:

yes? A pop idol character within Sonic's universe, kind of like what Mina's role was.

Sure thing. Alternatively, they could reintroduce Sonia and Manic. (Just don't make them related to Sonic, that's all)

As for a Hope expy, not sure how she holds up as a character, but she did lead to some incredibly deep moments like this: 4s1kfkpp28i31.jpg

But at least she isn't Princess Elise or Chris Thorndyke. (Though to be fair, Chris actually WAS useful in Season 3 of Sonic X)

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24 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I do question your problem with Starline, considering that his whole deal is being Eggman fanboy.

 

Quote

But right now I'm way more curious about Mina. Really? She was that great?

 

For most of her life? No she was bollers attempt among many to replace characters he wasn't fond of from the games. She wasn't particularly good or interesting and was kind of a mary sue.  At the end of her life, she was interesting. She was someone who had a message and was trying to get the message out and didn't necessarily with sonic and his friends , and that's interesting. See with shadow there's nothing much that can be done with that type of friction. No one is gonna learn anything as its already been made abundantly clear , and even with character changes shadow, shadow not agreeing with sonic and thinking he's handling the situation incorrectly... is inline with his character. They are characterized with people with opposing ideas and generally do their own thing and mind their own business.

A mina type character presents a very new, and relevant complication to lives of potentially every hero/antihero on animal planet. Simply put a super popular , super revered , beloved house hold name super star talking mad shit about sonic and his friends and swaying public opinion.

And you can play it both ways though I personally prefer the " Dark Route " in this scenario

The light route would be having her kinda disagree with how sonic and friends handle the situation. Like maybe at the end of this shadow's like " YOU ARE THE REASON THIS HAPPENED IN THIS FIRST PLACE " she and a bunch of people hear it because maybe its like televised or something and then later she comes out speaking out about sonic and coand how they maybe need to not be playing hero. And kind of make their a bit harder. 

   
And then there's dark route. You could potentially do a lot of socially relevant stuff with a toxic, popular popstar asshole spouting horrible opinions that unfortunately too much of the public agrees with over the air ways, tv , internet and swaying some opinion. Making the lives of the heroes much much worse. Blaming the resistance movement for being the cause of the things eggman is doing around the world and their inability to deal with problems. And sometimes just outright species-ism. She could suggest that we need to commandeer the M.E because knuckles just isn't " mentally equipped to handle it " and make terrible illusions as to why that's there's no more echidinas. She could suggest shadow needs to go back to space because he's an alien.Trying to get blaze to go away suggesting she isn't good at ruling because she seems to "take to many vacations to hour world " . Suggesting that silvers future continues to be bad because he associates himself with sonic and he would be much better off getting on the right side of history.  She can have this whole network of people finding out info on folks for her to gain social sway and sort of have the citizens wish to remove these once beloved heroes from their world. And sonic and co would have to navigate this, and maybe possibly have a shadow bonding moment because shadow defending people who may actively hate him is kinda his mo, and they finally get how dehumanizing that is.

And they can't just hit her, right? She's a private citizen, this being caught on tape would play into the fears she has fostered among the public making their lives worse. Someone does try to attack her for her views maybe it does get worse, and that's also a complication in the plan.

Whether she's an eggman plant or fully acting upon her own volition, there's a lot of potential here.

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16 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

I hope Ian Flynn writes the deadly six like he did with the hooligans.

How was his writing of the deadly six in Archie?

Glad to see there aren't any defeatists concerning these guys, unlike with... Classic Sonic. The Six being substitute Hooligans is a good idea for them, SEGA seem to be making inroads already with Zavok as a go-to thug with little context.

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