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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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30 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Vector was probably the person on-hand with the best qualities to lead the group as a whole. Despite his goofish exterior, he has been shown to have a really good head on his shoulders. He's bright, quick-witted and plays his cards close to his chest, even among his own allies. He'll make hard choices and he has an almost precognitive sense of the big picture. He's also one of the few adults in a room full of children which has to account for something.

 

Knuckles was the last man standing of Team Sonic tho. Its also worth mentioning that promoting him as a beacon of hope would be the easiest way to channel some of the "Sonic mojo" that they no longer had access to with Big Blue out of the picture. If the name of the game was to inspire resistance, you'd want to tie yourself to Sonic's legacy as much as humanly possible. With Tails out of the picture, that can only fall to Knuckles...

Then Knuckles should be more the champion of the group instead of the leader. The same place Sonic was for the Freedom Fighters while Sally was the one in charge.

If anything, that very comparison to Sonic makes him less suited for leadership in the position he was in Forces, and much better off as the resistance’s second best choice of being a field soldier since. It would make him more mobile too, and he’d have the chance to live a moment like Sonic and know how he feels as an adventure for a brief period.

Vector should still be the head guy in charge. :P 

Makes more sense to have one of the top 5 physically strongest people active than behind the office, especially one that doesn’t have much experience with directing teams based on their background.

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Most of these characters don't know eachother that well and there would probably be no concentrated resistance effort without Sonic to begin with. The whole the idea of the resistance doesn't feel like it was thought out very much without even getting into who should lead. 

 

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Yeah. Which is why the way Shadow's game handled it is still the best to me. I honestly like that most of them don't know each other that well. It helps the world feel big and it makes them feel more interesting.

Forces stripped a lot of the intrigue from the characters away by forcing them to stay together like some sort of gelatonous mass.

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41 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's fantastic.

A plausible reason for Knuckles being the leader is that now...he's the closest thing to Sonic the Hedgehog that they have.

No really, that's an excellent explanation.

It also shows how they became too dependent on Sonic over the years.

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Vector was probably the person on-hand with the best qualities to lead the group as a whole. Despite his goofish exterior, he has been shown to have a really good head on his shoulders. He's bright, quick-witted and plays his cards close to his chest, even among his own allies. He'll make hard choices and he has an almost precognitive sense of the big picture. He's also one of the few adults in a room full of children which has to account for something.

 

Knuckles was the last man standing of Team Sonic tho. Its also worth mentioning that promoting him as a beacon of hope would be the easiest way to channel some of the "Sonic mojo" that they no longer had access to with Big Blue out of the picture. If the name of the game was to inspire resistance, you'd want to tie yourself to Sonic's legacy as much as humanly possible. With Tails out of the picture, that can only fall to Knuckles...

That just says they became to dependent on sonic and speaks really poorly of them. Then again, that's a good descriptor for the plot of that game so eh.

Like a game where multiple characters started their own resistance efforts and are doing their own thing, gives a bunch of people agency allows multiple characters to be leaders and shows they can be their own person.

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Most of these characters don't know eachother that well and there would probably be no concentrated resistance effort without Sonic to begin with. The whole the idea of the resistance doesn't feel like it was thought out very much without even getting into who should lead. 

 

 

Eh I don't believe there would be no concentrated resistance effort. But I will say yeah most of the characters actually don't know eachother that well and them all being the leaders of the resistance and known entities is kinda...weird. Yeah it wasn't thought out that well

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Yeah. Which is why the way Shadow's game handled it is still the best to me. I honestly like that most of them don't know each other that well. It helps the world feel big and it makes them feel more interesting.

Forces stripped a lot of the intrigue from the characters away by forcing them to stay together like some sort of gelatonous mass.

It also didn't allow them to be doing anything. I dunno, if forces was focused more around the avatar and instead of teaming up with just sonic there were levels you teamed up with everyone else. So you cuold actually show them..doing things, probably would have communicated that narrative better

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Then Knuckles should be more the champion of the group instead of the leader. The same place Sonic was for the Freedom Fighters while Sally was the one in charge.

I think thats an off comparison. It was a different situation with the FF. There was another character present that could come much closer to matching Sonic's ability to rally the masses in Sally. Her natural leadership capabilities, combined with her linage and connection to the old guard made Sonic much more... expendable in the scope of recruiting the masses. He was still important to that effort no doubt, but unlike the game-verse he wasn't the only show in town.

In the game verse, Sonic has to pull double and even triple duty as the Champion, FigureHead and One-Man-Rally-Flag.

 

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

If anything, that very comparison to Sonic makes him less suited for leadership in the position he was in Forces, and much better off as the resistance’s second best choice of being a field soldier since. It would make him more mobile too, and he’d have the chance to live a moment like Sonic and know how he feels as an adventure for a brief period.

Vector should still be the head guy in charge. :P 

Makes more sense to have one of the top 5 physically strongest people active than behind the office, especially one that doesn’t have much experience with directing teams based on their background.

That's shortsighted. Keeping Knuckles off the front lines essentially protects the last piece of Team Sonic you have left. If Knuckles has value as the herald of Sonic's legacy, then you can't risk losing him, and keeping him behind and only deploying him when absolutely necessary is the best move for the long haul. Especially before that had any tangible information about what Infinite actually was.

Its a chess game. You don't always win by throwing you biggest and best at every problem. Tactical deployment and the long game is much more important. As hot-headed as he is, Knux understands that. He once shattered the master emerald knowing a broken gem would prevent it from falling in the wrong hands and he could fix it later.

Even if he is one of your best combat assets, what he represents may be worth even more. The only thing the Resistance had going for it in Sonic's absence was a dang good recruiting drive. Sonic's legacy likely was the driving force behind that. Loosing Knux could have been the nail in the coffin for any civie holding out hope they could win.

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That just says they became to dependent on sonic and speaks really poorly of them. Then again, that's a good descriptor for the plot of that game so eh.

Like a game where multiple characters started their own resistance efforts and are doing their own thing, gives a bunch of people agency allows multiple characters to be leaders and shows they can be their own person.

Infinite basically called Sonic Jesus. If your going to lean and be dependent on someone's legacy, at least do it on that guy lol.

Every character in this franchise has a keen understanding of what Sonic means to the world as a whole. Even Shadow has come to understand - which should stand for a lot. You can debate on the need for such a disposition in this franchise is neccesary, but I'm not about to throw shade on characters for jumping under the mantle of their best under the times of their worst crisis.

 

 

I throw this out there while I am at it. I don't have a problem with the idea of a resistance. I think it was appropriate considering the circumstances (no Sonic, heroes getting pushed back) and it was the only course of action to take in the face of an Eggman Empire. The series always preaches teamwork save for the times when Sonic carries the burdens alone because he is so great. With no Sonic, teamwork was the obvious solution.

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15 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Infinite basically called Sonic Jesus. If your going to lean and be dependent on someone's legacy, at least do it on that guy lol.

Puts my head in my hands

There are so many holes in that story oh my god

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Every character in this franchise has a keen understanding of what Sonic means to the world as a whole.

Eh? I don't really think so

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Even Shadow has come to understand - which should stand for a lot.

Not really though, in fact his recent characterizations has him actively backing off of accepting sonic at all. I don't think any of the characters have " understand what sonic means "

They just...stop doing things. Which is the problem with the narrative. shadow could have ended the plot like...2 seconds in the game. But he just...doesn't appear because ...sonic needs to do it. Like they never prove why they should be this way, they just...are this way and its not great. And just makes them look largely useless.

if I can harken back to silver...for no reason just not using the powers that he has had since his debut to let sonic save him. This isn't representative of anything. This is a failure of writing

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You can debate on the need for such a disposition in this franchise is neccesary, but I'm not about to throw shade on characters for jumping under the mantle of their best under the times of their worst crisis.

I am, it sucks and it makes the characters useless. And it makes sonic himself look kinda fucking lame for hanging out with them.

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I throw this out there while I am at it. I don't have a problem with the idea of a resistance. I think it was appropriate considering the circumstances (no Sonic, heroes getting pushed back) and it was the only course of action to take in the face of an Eggman Empire. The series always preaches teamwork save for the times when Sonic carries the burdens alone because he is so great. With no Sonic, teamwork was the obvious solution.

I don't think so. Because to be honest , i think mad characters body eggman free even if sonic's not around. One of those characters being shadow, who ... they just vanish that character from the narrative because he was strong and literally couldn't figure out what to do with him. That plot hole, silvers fumble, the characters being held in a room. Is a literal admission that they could not come up with a reason to justify any number of these characters beating the crap out of eggman even with infinite and had to create a bunch of story contrivances to get this shit to work.

This isn't even the best version of the whole team work angle. Which is my problem with your justification. Infinite has the power to create illusions , why on gods green earth did they just not do a story where he just created illusions of other characters and had them say and do bad shit and got them to hate each other. And that what allows eggman to win. Not only does that make everyone look good. It allows buddy to find sonic and use him as the connective tissue mending friendships and creating the huge sonic team that would eventually take down eggman. And bonus,you had carte blanche to have characters air out their grievances to one another. His value isn't being the best, his value is being a cool dude who you can rely  on and it would make everyone look good.

This is what was presented was a bunch of story contrivances to make sonic and infinite look cool, and fails to do .

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5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Puts my head in my hands

There are so many holes in that story oh my god

Are you questioning the power of Sonic's legacy on the masses? Cause I don't think you'll have a leg to stand on if that's the route you want to go down.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh? I don't really think so

Please elaborate.

The only characters that don't understand what Sonic is are the extremely isolated ones, and even they come around after a short bit of interaction.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 I don't think any of the characters have " understand what sonic means "

"You'll always be our Shining Hope"

"Maybe such a thing would be possible - if HE were still alive"

"I believe in you Sonic"

"I think the Ultimate Life Form might be you"

 

hmm.... yeah. I think they understand he's the hero of this story. The one that makes the impossible possible. The miracle man.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

They just...stop doing things. Which is the problem with the narrative. shadow could have ended the plot like...2 seconds in the game. But he just...doesn't appear because ...sonic needs to do it. Like they never prove why they should be this way, they just...are this way and its not great. And just makes them look largely useless.

We didn't even see how the Eggman Empire sacked the planet. The game conveniently skipped over that. The Heroes didn't stop doing things, they just lost off screen. We know for a fact that they kept fighting the good fight. They were in active combat protocols when they first discovered Sonic was still alive, and we know from the comics that there was extensive conflict and several battlezones with high casualty rates. Silver himself said he almost died fighting in one such battle, and Whisper saved him.

So you can't try to spin the narrative that they just sat on their hands in Sonic's absence. Rouge was out seeking intel. The Chaotix were out on the front lines. Silver was fighting.

Should the narrative of the game be blamed for not showing all this? Yes. But it did happen.

Both Sonic and Shadow previously failed to stop Infinite. Its not a surprise that the rest of the cast would fair just as poorly.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I am, it sucks and it makes the characters useless. And it makes sonic himself look kinda fucking lame for hanging out with them.

Loosing to a super-powered being with an extreme advantage doesn't make you useless. Not being able to fight an unbalanced war doesn't make you useless.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think so. Because to be honest , i think mad characters body eggman free even if sonic's not around.

Eggman wasn't even the problem here.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

One of those characters being shadow, who ... they just vanish that character from the narrative because he was strong and literally couldn't figure out what to do with him. That plot hole, silvers fumble, the characters being held in a room. Is a literal admission that they could not come up with a reason to justify any number of these characters beating the crap out of eggman even with infinite and had to create a bunch of story contrivances to get this shit to work.

Silver tried to stop Infinite and fared about as well as Sonic and Shadow. Why is that a problem?

Shadow's absence is a gaping plot hole, but even he couldn't do much to stop Infinite until Rouge was able to crack the code on what he was to give the resistance an actual target to fight back against. They were spinning their tires until they started making plans to attack the rubies power source. Anything else they would have done, Shadow or no Shadow, would have been a waste of time.

 

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

This isn't even the best version of the whole team work angle. Which is my problem with your justification. Infinite has the power to create illusions , why on gods green earth did they just not do a story where he just created illusions of other characters and had them say and do bad shit and got them to hate each other. And that what allows eggman to win. Not only does that make everyone look good. It allows buddy to find sonic and use him as the connective tissue mending friendships and creating the huge sonic team that would eventually take down eggman. And bonus,you had carte blanche to have characters air out their grievances to one another. His value isn't being the best, his value is being a cool dude who you can rely  on and it would make everyone look good.

This is what was presented was a bunch of story contrivances to make sonic and infinite look cool, and fails to do .

Any number of possible alternatives could have been better than what we got. I've never implied otherwise. My point is conceptually, the Resistance model can work for this situation. Having the heroes band together to make their last stand fits the narrative theme of the franchise and sells the desperation of the situation. The six month time skip did the narrative no favors.

and for all the talk of playing up Sonic and Infinite you do, it was Silver and Rouge who end up saving the day here. Where is the credit for them?

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@Sega DogTagz

I orginally had a big ol' post but I think i'm gonna cut it here. Most of the stuff I have said on forces, I said before. And if you choose to take this games narrative ( in the looses sense of that word )at face value, do you.

You also bring up the ultimate life form thing , but you know darn well whatever that was supposed to be got retconned and shadow the "ULF " so to speak.

So i'm gonna end this on this. I don't think resistance story lines like this work for sonic. Whether it be a band of freedom fighters or a bunch of people held up due to a zombie virus. This sort of story telling inherently removes the interesting individuality and characterization that sells people on these characters and to make forces function, you kind of needed to do that. And I don't think its good or works for sonic.

I don't the story proves itself enough for me the audience member to believe any of it happened. Its filled with plot contrivances. ( One of which you accidentally mentioned. I'm gonna need you to look at that shadow and rouge thing you typed. Because you are almost there, you almost figured out what's wrong. You are almost to the finish line )

But to connect it back to this comic and sonic in general. Consdering sega is moving past this as fast as they are, I don't think sega wants you to believe this game happened either.

 

 

 

 

 

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The delay is really quite irritating, I’ve been looking forward to this issue for ages. But what can you do about it? Nothing really.

Regardless, thus far only Sonic has been partially affected and Charmy and Shadow have fully succumbed to the virus. Oh, and those chao. That doesn’t seem like a lot of heroes considering we’re supposedly almost at the end of the main zombot arc. Really curious what will happen at ‘the last minute’.

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4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

@Sega DogTagz

I orginally had a big ol' post but I think i'm gonna cut it here. Most of the stuff I have said on forces, I said before. And if you choose to take this games narrative ( in the looses sense of that word )at face value, do you.

You also bring up the ultimate life form thing , but you know darn well whatever that was supposed to be got retconned and shadow the "ULF " so to speak.

So i'm gonna end this on this. I don't think resistance story lines like this work for sonic. Whether it be a band of freedom fighters or a bunch of people held up due to a zombie virus. This sort of story telling inherently removes the interesting individuality and characterization that sells people on these characters and to make forces function, you kind of needed to do that. And I don't think its good or works for sonic.

 

It could work fine if you leaned harder with the natural discord and division that comes with individuals working together. Figure out how characters would handle situations differently and what compromises they could reach. 

The freedom fighters as written by Ian understood this on some level but Sonic Forces doesn't. It'd be okay to put the Sonic characters on a team but we need to see more of their individuality and what kind of friction that could cause 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

It could work fine if you leaned harder with the natural discord and division that comes with individuals working together. Figure out how characters would handle situations differently and what compromises they could reach. 

The freedom fighters as written by Ian understood this on some level but Sonic Forces doesn't. It'd be okay to put the Sonic characters on a team but we need to see more of their individuality and what kind of friction that could cause 

You know what, that's fair.

I don't think the team working on these games now would be capable of such things, but you are correct. Friction would be interesting, and I even said myself " it would be cool if some characters did not like eachother". I guess, in my head I'm pre-nerfing ideas because I'm accounting for Sonic teams faults.

 

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On 9/16/2019 at 10:18 AM, Marco9966 said:

Can anybody listen to the 100 question Bumblekast and let us know if there's anything interesting?

Another Q&A blowout, eh?

I'm on my way.

On 9/16/2019 at 12:12 PM, Marco9966 said:

Flynn said on podcast that he had different plans for Shadow, but SEGA had their own plans, so he had to change.

Huh. Makes sense..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/16/2019 at 2:32 PM, Tangled Jack said:

I'm listening to the podcast, Ian says he has more freedom (ironically) with characters like Sonic and Eggman than Shadow and G-merl. So that hints at these characters feeling off in the comics. 

Oh? I suppose that makes sense as well.

There is a lot more of a varied basis within them compared to the other two.

On 9/16/2019 at 2:32 PM, Tangled Jack said:

 Plus, he answered my question and hints that the Deadly Six are all still available, and will likely show up in the comic. 

Um,

image.jpeg.2bb9595333cfaaae3dc555657071771b.jpeg

On 9/16/2019 at 2:37 PM, Marco9966 said:

He also tried to make Sticks show up twice, but SEGA didn't want that.

So, no Sticks for IDW.

Doggone it.

Whelp, that's another investment down.

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On 9/16/2019 at 2:59 PM, Marco9966 said:

I just hope they remove Silver and Blaze and treat them like Knuckles for IDW (Knuckles stays on his island) (and Silver and Blaze should stay in their world)

You mean like they've been doing anyway?

On 9/16/2019 at 3:05 PM, Tangled Jack said:

It's another one of those cases, like the Freedom Fighters, with popular characters with potential who will never get closure. Instead, we are stuck with the Zeti, I realize they are from a main game but they are still trash to me.

Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to briefly lean towards the bad guys by pointing out that they don't really have a place to fit in with IDW anymore. Also, weird that you're the one saying it, but moving on.

Part of the initial push's logic was supported by how the Resistance being this greater, consolidated force at war with Eggman was a perfect framework to have them just sorta be around out there. But now that it's technically disbanded with the end of the war and this Metal Virus is all over the place to the point that most of the survivors are holding up in one soon to be compromised place, you can't really slide them in now.

 

On 9/16/2019 at 3:13 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I can go either way on Sticks. She's alright if she's got decent writing, but bleh otherwise. She and pretty much all of the Boom cast in Worlds Unite really annoyed me, especially given how much of a hightened role Sticks got in it for no particular reason. The only time I can really say I enjoyed her in that is Issue 5 where she actually interacted with the main cast. Otherwise, she was alright in the other Boom comics, although truth be told, I for the life of me barely remember much of them.

All the more reason why this stinks.

On 9/16/2019 at 3:25 PM, Wraith said:

 

I'd like to see more Blaze without it feeling like She's ignoring her duties. Maybe they'll do a miniseries set in her dimension. 

Hey, they got that unused stuff with Null Mind and Captain Metal lying around. So maybe there's already a framework ready to be recontextualized.

On 9/16/2019 at 3:29 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Everyone thought him being leader was off.

 

On 9/16/2019 at 3:32 PM, Zaysho said:

Yeah, it never made sense to me either, but Ian wrote it in a way where he just jumped at it because he thought he was more important than he was.

Which, to be fair, is pretty consistent with his current game portrayals acting like he's better than Sonic most of the time while not really doing anything.

 

On 9/16/2019 at 3:44 PM, Shadowlax said:

Vector was an interesting choice though, didn't think of him leading. Makes sense though.

None of the major recurring cast would really be cut out for leading an entire military force, honestly. Knuckles clearly got picked because Sonic, Tails, & I guess Shadow were out and he's the obvious next in line. For what it's worth, I actually sorta warmed up to it despite that scenario not needing to be a thing forthwith, but still.

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Whenever a new Bumblekast comes out, I'd actually love to be the one to report on it with time-stamps and shit. I actually find doing that sort of thing fun.

I'm the kind of weirdo who loves writing lists for fun. When Orbot said he liked writing lists in TSR it was probably the most relatable thing a Sonic character had ever said to me. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 5:10 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

As for Sticks not being allowed, I’m getting annoyed at this “because I say so” logic that it often boils down to with Sega. Conspiracies and intrigue all going all around in this comic, and Sticks is the perfect character for this kind of thing—she’d be a lot more fleshed out and less cringy in that environment since she could more or less stick (hue) her nose into places and alert anyone of what she discovers, whether deliberate or on accident. So it sounds like a wasted opportunity for now.

Not to mention getting to see her interact with the proper cast outside of quick gags.

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On 9/18/2019 at 9:54 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

I think thats an off comparison. It was a different situation with the FF. There was another character present that could come much closer to matching Sonic's ability to rally the masses in Sally. Her natural leadership capabilities, combined with her linage and connection to the old guard made Sonic much more... expendable in the scope of recruiting the masses. He was still important to that effort no doubt, but unlike the game-verse he wasn't the only show in town.

In the game verse, Sonic has to pull double and even triple duty as the Champion, FigureHead and One-Man-Rally-Flag.

Not really. Even the game verse had more than one character that can, if not match Sonic, at least be a decent substitute. Silver, is one such example, and he’s far more powerful than Sonic and possibly even Knuckles just on his telekinesis alone. But just being powerful isn’t enough to lead a whole war. 

And Sonic doesn’t actually pull that much of his weight like that even in the games. As much as he is the face of things, there are plenty of other characters that can pull their weight, or do certain jobs better than Sonic. He didn’t exactly step up as a leader even when he manage to escape captivity during Forces, instead leaving that to the others that were already in those positions while he continued charging into the fights like he did prior to the war. If anything, what he did their isn’t any different than what he did with the FF, except he was more willing to go solo at times.

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That's shortsighted. Keeping Knuckles off the front lines essentially protects the last piece of Team Sonic you have left. If Knuckles has value as the herald of Sonic's legacy, then you can't risk losing him, and keeping him behind and only deploying him when absolutely necessary is the best move for the long haul. Especially before that had any tangible information about what Infinite actually was.

Its a chess game. You don't always win by throwing you biggest and best at every problem. Tactical deployment and the long game is much more important. As hot-headed as he is, Knux understands that. He once shattered the master emerald knowing a broken gem would prevent it from falling in the wrong hands and he could fix it later.

Even if he is one of your best combat assets, what he represents may be worth even more. The only thing the Resistance had going for it in Sonic's absence was a dang good recruiting drive. Sonic's legacy likely was the driving force behind that. Loosing Knux could have been the nail in the coffin for any civie holding out hope they could win.

No, it isn’t, and none of that translates to leadership. Knuckles isn’t a character that plans strategy; heck, even Sonic who he’s supposed to emulate isn’t one either—that’s more Tails’ alley. Both Sonic and Knuckles are characters that jump into fights even if they’re leading the charge, not staying behind and directing orders to others. Yes, he knows about tactics, and that’s all the more reason he should be out fighting than leading from the rear based on how he is in the games while a more strategic character like Tails or one better able to direct teams and people like Vector or even Amy are the ones that direct the resistance—he can make quicker decisions on the fly and change the tide when deployed on the field while the others handle the logistics and planning that go into the war front.

In a chess game, your Queen is the strongest piece, but it doesn’t lead the team and it being taken out doesn’t mean the end of the game—Knuckles is essentially just that as much as Sonic is. But even if I lose my Queen, I can still checkmate you with my Pawns; I can take out your Queen with just a Pawn as well. But war is more than what Chess shows—war is about logistics, strategy, terrain/geography, tactics (which differs from strategy), materiel/resources, technology, intelligence, and other aspects like morale and opportunity/timing, all of which make up the sum of one’s capabilities; which of these areas is Knuckles actually the most capable in compared to others, and where would those capabilities be better suited, the frontlines or the rear?

For all his abilities, Knuckles isn’t as tech-smart, he’s had moments where he’s been tricked more than he should be, and while he’s a team player, how often has he been a team leader? Going from just Sonic Heroes, I can find three better choices for leaders that can cover these things far better than Knuckles. And if I want to continue instilling hope when things seem glum, I’d more than likely send one of my most capable soldier out to help out the masses when they’re in danger while their presence inspires them to fight back, on top of being less worried about said soldier not being able to return back safely than it would be if I were to send someone less capable—a reminder that Sonic actually got ambushed as opposed to being fought head on, and fights against him from that point on weren’t the same.

Knuckles also has added advantages of being able to burrow and punch craters in ground, two skills which would be valuable in saving civilians, adding more recruits, and inspiring others to continue the fight—much in the same way Sonic does. Those skills can also allow Knuckles to be much sneaker in the event he encounters Infinite, such as digging underground and avoiding his sight when doing search and rescue or coming in to blind-side Infinite with a flank, which shouldn’t be underestimated since that very sneakiness allowed Knuckles to knock the Super out of Sonic at their first encounter and probably could have knocked the Phantom out of Infinite with the same sneaky tactic as opposed to Silver air-jousting it out of him. And given that even someone as green as the Rookie can rise up and take on Infinite, that’s even less of a reason to hold Knuckles back given that the Rookie actually did the things that would’ve been less than a cakewalk for Knuckles anyway that turned the tide of their fight.

If you’re going to pass the torch and have Knuckles emulating the kind of hope an absent Sonic should bring, then he should be doing the kind of things that Sonic would be doing in his place. Otherwise, how exactly is he really heralding Sonic’s legacy doing the opposite of what’s Sonic would do? It much like the reason Tails’s portrayal gets raged at for cowering at the sight of Chaos 0 when he’s fought things far more dangerous.

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On 9/16/2019 at 6:36 PM, Wraith said:

I don't have a problem with Knuckles leading the resistance but I'm sad they didn't lean harder into the inherent comedy of Knuckles being in charge of something that important. 

 

.

On 9/16/2019 at 7:02 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The cynic in me feels like the only reason Knuckles was chosen to be leader was out of process of elimination; Tails had his own journey with Classic going on, and Amy is a girl :V. So by process of elimination, the next most popular character has to be leader, no matter how little sense it actually makes in universe.

 

I don't really mind that Knuckles was the leader...but they never really do anything with it, nor acknowledge how absurd it actually is. At least if Vector was the leader, it'd let a C list character actually have some level of spotlight for once. 

.Not to mention the potential to meaningfully callback to Adventure 1.

On 9/16/2019 at 9:21 PM, Shadowlax said:

 

I mean I don't think its arbitrary. Most of the way. 90% of this descion I feel as though comes from a place where they are starting to invest more time into adventure call backs to the degree in which they are openly talking about adventure remakes. Sticks isn't from that era so she's just... not around.

Now , you might be like. " What about Zavok's wack ass " and yes, his ass is wack. So this is why i said, 90%. The 10% is there just might not be people who care about her enough to advocate for her stay. Usually at like companies like these you need like... and advocate unless you are really popular or like a core part of the series. If it wasn't for someone advocating for ray or mighty, they might have not come back. So Someone might not be advocating for sticks, but advocating for the zeti because they made them for normal sonic and feel more of a connection. As wack as they are. Maybe one day somoene will get enough clout to will her back into existance, but not right now

I mean, Zavok is sorta a half step back towards that sorta storytelling and/or character design, so maybe that's also factor?

Of course, this makes me remember what Iuzuka-san said recently and narrow my brow.

On 9/17/2019 at 5:22 AM, LukA8 said:

The Chaotix have always been the only characters worrying about money, them having to suffer and juggle with real-life responsibilities such as the rent is just part of their shtick so they have a motivation with their business; everyone else usually shrugs it off when Vector being poor gets brought up again because it doesn't matter to them. It only exists in their context, for example Eggman promising to pay them once he conquers the world, but not outside of it because Sonic having to work the night shift is not part of the franchise. It's not something you should try to find logic in too much, just like the two worlds thing which is not them flying from one planet to another but just Sonic Team not wanting to use human characters and locales at the moment.

There's also the fact that they're some of the only characters with a consistent place to rest their head and a job.

On 9/17/2019 at 10:51 AM, Shadowlax said:

I mean it was a given considering infinite doesn't reference it in the game. That dlc and that comic  were made much later to try and give a character who had been already split into two different directions due to development issues, some character. Unfortunately it split him into 3 characters. This combined with the poor reception they were doa. Even if folks bothered with infinite enough to make him popular he problably would have gotten his whole life rebooted killing them anyway.

 

Cynical as a may be on this book. I get the feeling whispers group is the "not jackal squad" a similar concept they can do something interesting with.

Very true--episode Shadow was pretty shameless even with being connected to Forces.

On 9/17/2019 at 1:08 PM, Razule said:

We didn't even know animal people had a society until Forces. Rings could be part of a barter system.

Maybe the Chaotix live on the human world. This would explain that one time in the Sonic X comic where Eggman was perplexed by the idea of money.

 

On 9/17/2019 at 1:38 PM, Forgetful Panda said:

Remember in the Sonic X comic how Eggman didn’t understand the “green pieces of paper”?

EDIT: phuck

Hotdog, another one?! :joy: 

On 9/17/2019 at 2:33 PM, Forgetful Panda said:

Their office is clearly shown to be on Sonic’s world in issue 17.

It's also likely that Heroes takes place in Sonic's World as well, so...

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On 9/17/2019 at 2:46 PM, Your Vest Friend said:

If rings were highly inflated as a money system, it would probably account for the Chaotix being broke and none of the other characters really concerning themselves with money. The characters who adventure a lot can find a ton of rings, those who don't are generally well paid, and those who don't fit either of those boxes either don't care (like Big or Omega) or are the Chaotix. Say for example 1000 rings was equal to the value of £1; it's all well and good having 200-300 rings laying around in the city, but what good is it if it's the equivalent of finding 20p on the pavement with far less convenience?

Edit: It also makes the missions in Heroes hilarious if it was like "Okay, you need to prove your worth as detectives by collecting 50p". 

And then there's Team Blast.

On 9/17/2019 at 4:24 PM, Slashy said:

Then the human world must be really poor given how a pair of shoes costs 100 rings and most food items cost far less than that.

 You say that like it's totally unusual.

On 9/17/2019 at 6:12 PM, Razule said:

Yeah, I was really curious about that.. why would Gemerl have more restrictions than Sonic? He barely even had a personality in his one and only appearance.

Probably because, sorta like Shadow, he doesn't have a backlog of alternate material to ease the precedent and/or the "curse" of varying portrayal.

On 9/17/2019 at 9:41 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Gmerl's personality basically replaced Shard after he got the boot via the purge. Snarky Quick-Witted Sonic-y Robot. Shard was popular so watching his proxy get neutered back to basic robot in the jump to IDW is kinda jarring.

 

On the freedom note. I can understand Sega being more protective of Shadow. They have first had experience of what happens with him when his narrative gets out of control (Shth) or is left incomplete (Boom). Being defensive over him could be an end result of being too trigger happy in the past (lol see what I did there).

Gmerl's restrictions probably have more to do with lore. Whether it be a retcon or just downplaying lore in general, Gmerl's connection to Emerl makes him a direct link to the most lore heavy game in the franchise. There is a lot of content in Sonic Battle that Sega may not be keen in carrying forward, so they may try to limit Gmerl as a result. Kind of like Nega, they may be happy just ignoring the problem as much as possible rather than addressing it.

Something something coincidence. Something something Battle.

 

On 9/18/2019 at 5:55 AM, Shadowlax said:

But as it stands, he's aztech fuzzy lumpkins. And Like yeah , i'm calling fuzzy if i'm in a scrap . I'm not following him anywhere

The fuck?! :lol: 

On 9/18/2019 at 3:02 AM, StaticMania said:

When has Sonic ever been the leader of anything?

He'll be the "lead" because he's the fastest, but he ain't giving order or coming up with plans for a team.

On 9/18/2019 at 5:55 AM, Shadowlax said:

 

Also Batman leads the justice league all the time? Like all the time? Like it happens frequently and other smart people do it too. The " leader " of that team changes depending on what that story is about.

These are indeed important points.

To borrow from TVTropes, Sonic is basically a Charismatic leader with a certain degree of Headstrong in there. He's usually the "leader" of the big battles in the series because he's both the Hero and someone who's all about fighting for freedom. And because it's fun to do so, too.

In the case of Forces, Knuckles being the Commander sorta makes sense if you look at it as him being the most stubborn and confrontational of the remaining major cast. Which, incidentally, isn't a bad start for facing someone like Infinite.

On 9/18/2019 at 4:20 PM, Rosaleia said:

I think we're also forgetting the fact that Knuckles comes from a warrior tribe, and may have better understanding in regards to the fundamentals of war and war-related tactics. I always felt like, rather than just Amy, Knuckles should have been contributing more in the tactician area, whereas Amy could also do so, but was more of the morale booster of the resistance, who also pointed out the occasional flaws in Knux's logic. Vector's a good detective, and I do think he's got good leadership qualities, but I feel like Knuckles is the type who might understand war better given his heritage. And would be more likely to make decisions in battle Vector would sooner hesitate towards.

On 9/18/2019 at 6:27 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Its also worth mentioning exactly what they were up against in terms of selecting a leader. Not only does Knux have the most experience dealing with Eggman outside of Sonic and Tails, but Infinite posed a unique threat in the form of fear. People were afraid of him and what he could do. The leader of the resistance had to be someone who could dependably stand up to that fear. Even Espio was referring to him as a "monster".  Knux is probably the safest and best choice on that front.

There is no one type of leadership style, and there a ton of ways to get the job done.

Very much.

 

On 9/18/2019 at 9:36 AM, Splash the Otter said:

He's the leader of Team Sonic. Why do you think it's named after him?

To be fair, Team Sonic(and most teams in Heroes) is called that simply because Sonic is in it and the other Classic Trio members happen to protect the world alongside him often.

Though funnily enough, Shattered Crystal sorta plays around with that.

On 9/18/2019 at 6:57 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

I don't even know if Pearl actually is smarter than Garnet. They both seemed equally intelligent to me. Pearl was just a lot more dainty while Garnet was a lot more hard and straight-forward. I don't know. Maybe Rebecca Sugar confirmed that and I missed it. 

Funnily enough--and I don't remember where I saw this--but the Crystal Gems ironically still operate within Homeworld traditions anyway.

Even ignoring Season 5, real Garnets are indeed leaders with quite a bit of backing power and Sapphires are already fairly high ranking per Blue Diamond's court due to their rarity & insight. Meanwhile, Quartzes are field leaders, Lapis Lazulis and Bismuths just prepare colonies, and Rubies are basic soldiers/guards. And while Pearls are a servant race that may or may not have pull by proxy based on their owner's convenience, Crystal Pearl gets pretty needy and devoted anyway.

So while Rose Quartz got the position for actually kicking off the Rebellion, Garnet is hypothetical the most suited anyway.

On 9/18/2019 at 6:57 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

I also don't have any proof that Vector wouldn't be able to handle the position if it meant the world was riding on it. Why is Amy arguable be he isn't? Probably just comes down to what your personal perception of the character is.

.Probably some of the same stuff that recommends Knuckles.

 

On 9/18/2019 at 7:30 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:


It’s not like Knuckles being a leader of some kind isn’t plausible—he was more or less the leader of the Chaotix in Archie pre-Reboot.

And if we’re talking about leadership just in terms of who has the guts to face Infinite, then by all rights the leader should have more or less been Silver instead of Knuckles, but he certainly isn’t looked at as the best choice either if you take his development into account.

It helps that the Chaotix were more just a bunch of guys he befriended and hung around with.

Though while Silver was indeed my initial second choice, he does get rule out by simply being from the future and thus would do better to stay outta the spotlight for major events.

 

On 9/18/2019 at 7:30 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

To be honest, Vector wasn’t anywhere close to the first person I’d assume as someone to be the leader of the Resistance off the bat, but taking everything about him into account—guy was apparently the least fazed of his team to realize it was Dr. Eggman who hired him in Heroes (and not a major hothead like Knuckles), never mind the risk he took accepting the job in the first place, on top of the fact that he knows how to run an organization (however small or struggling it is)—he’s actually one of the better choices looking back compared to Knuckles.

If anything, Knuckles would’ve been better suited out on the field engaging directly in guerilla warfare setting traps and causing mayhem on Eggman’s forces, because that’s far more suiting for a tribal warrior like him that’s more willing to jump into fights.

As if Forces couldn’t show enough of how much it wasted its ambition.

You say Heroes, I'm thinking Generations.

I mean he was technically just leading the charge anyway, from what it sounds like. He just ended up being the person everyone looks to for their next move, which he hashes out with Amy, Silver, and the Chaotix.

Though funnily enough, he actually was eager to do that sorta stuff, now that you mention it.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:14 PM, StaticMania said:

That's fantastic.

A plausible reason for Knuckles being the leader is that now...he's the closest thing to Sonic the Hedgehog that they have.

No really, that's an excellent explanation.

Oh, the extra irony.

On 9/18/2019 at 8:32 PM, Wraith said:

Most of these characters don't know eachother that well and there would probably be no concentrated resistance effort without Sonic to begin with. The whole the idea of the resistance doesn't feel like it was thought out very much without even getting into who should lead. 

 

image.jpeg.45e65e573b93d371ec34daf3c240c0a5.jpeg

18 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

@Sega DogTagz

I orginally had a big ol' post but I think i'm gonna cut it here. Most of the stuff I have said on forces, I said before. And if you choose to take this games narrative ( in the looses sense of that word )at face value, do you.

You also bring up the ultimate life form thing , but you know darn well whatever that was supposed to be got retconned and shadow the "ULF " so to speak.

So i'm gonna end this on this. I don't think resistance story lines like this work for sonic. Whether it be a band of freedom fighters or a bunch of people held up due to a zombie virus. This sort of story telling inherently removes the interesting individuality and characterization that sells people on these characters and to make forces function, you kind of needed to do that. And I don't think its good or works for sonic.

I don't the story proves itself enough for me the audience member to believe any of it happened. Its filled with plot contrivances. ( One of which you accidentally mentioned. I'm gonna need you to look at that shadow and rouge thing you typed. Because you are almost there, you almost figured out what's wrong. You are almost to the finish line )

But to connect it back to this comic and sonic in general. Consdering sega is moving past this as fast as they are, I don't think sega wants you to believe this game happened either.

 

 

 

 

 

@Sega DogTagz

Yeah, I was about to say, are ya'll seriously sitting there talking about The Legacy of Sonic?

14 hours ago, caitash said:

The delay is really quite irritating, I’ve been looking forward to this issue for ages. But what can you do about it? Nothing really.

Regardless, thus far only Sonic has been partially affected and Charmy and Shadow have fully succumbed to the virus. Oh, and those chao. That doesn’t seem like a lot of heroes considering we’re supposedly almost at the end of the main zombot arc. Really curious what will happen at ‘the last minute’.

It's supposed to last into next year and the most recent solicits have

Spoiler

the Restoration's base being breached from the inside and Sonic encountering Eggman again while Tails figures something out.

Also, Starline has his eyes on the Deadly Six, Mimic might survive the miniseries, and we haven't seen from Rough n' Tumble since the start of this.

There's still room for other developments.

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If the comic keeps getting delayed, at what point does that just become the new schedule.

One thing that weirds me out is gemril restrictions. As much as I don't like the ones around shadow... I get the idea? He's hella popular and they probs plan on using him a lot more now because of that so many they want a consistent baseline. That baseline seems to be and has been turning people off and hopefully they notice it. But like I get the idea

Who the crap was gonna use gemril in any serious way ...ever for them to have restrictions. LIke its stuff like that, that makes me think its just iizuka george lucas-ing over everything. Because some people were speculating it was some sega higher up, but what sega higher up gives a shit about gemeril.  None of the other characters seem to be under such restrictions. Its weird

 

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I mean, Zavok is sorta a half step back towards that sorta storytelling and/or character design, so maybe that's also factor?

What story telling exactly

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Of course, this makes me remember what Iuzuka-san said recently and narrow my brow.

What thing was it this time

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

There's also the fact that they're some of the only characters with a consistent place to rest their head and a job.

Is there a " where characters might live " list?

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Very true--episode Shadow was pretty shameless even with being connected to Forces.

 

It was a band aid on a gaping wound.

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