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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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Just now, Dr Egg-Gin said:

In hindsight, I think starting right away with Forces was jumping the gun or at least that combined with a zombie apocalypse right after. They should have had an introductory bit first when things were calmer, because right now most of the characters haven't really had a chance to show their more regular selves, and may have to wait even longer if they become Zombots. 

They did, first 4 issues are way too calm and slow in fact. Plus season 1 was a shorter, low level crisis restricted to Angel Island with a mystery villain pulling the strings behind the scenes for some time.

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52 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

Ehh, sorry but no. Besides the fact that even the writer stated he's using a vastly different approach, I can tell by… the actual book. 

So why is it Archie-lite (without the Freedom Fighters I assume)? There is a more simple approach, no huge fanservice and obscure stuff for the most part, it's targeted to kids and teens, people who play the games, unlike Archie it doesn't try to connect the Whole timeline of games, it has more restrictions due to them working closely with SEGA this time, like no past, no classics apparently, a really smaller cast, . Shorter arcs, simpler stories, no heavy history and complicated stuff,  no  world building 

like the Forces premise and environment, backstory, really helps the book, while I think that reducing it to one game really limits the comic, it's also true that Forces was like… a Pandora box of opportunities, the game wasted them,

now  we're getting new stories with that genre, which is really the best opportunity, and the new stories are great.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Dr Egg-Gin said:

In hindsight, I think starting right away with Forces was jumping the gun or at least that combined with a zombie apocalypse right after. They should have had an introductory bit first when things were calmer, because right now most of the characters haven't really had a chance to show their more regular selves, and may have to wait even longer if they become Zombots. 

And I'd say this somewhat summarily covers my point on the three. 

15 minutes ago, Pumpkin Spice Ultima said:

Priscilla Tranmontano, she also drew two pages of the previous issue

Huh, well I can say that her art isn't half bad.

I know I made fun of some of the faces, but that's because they were faces. However, everything else thus far looks pretty on model and the colors complement it. 

She might be one of the best additions. 

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6 hours ago, Dr Egg-Gin said:

In hindsight, I think starting right away with Forces was jumping the gun or at least that combined with a zombie apocalypse right after. They should have had an introductory bit first when things were calmer, because right now most of the characters haven't really had a chance to show their more regular selves, and may have to wait even longer if they become Zombots. 

I don't know. Personally I think picking up from the most recent game that most new readers would probably have played was the most logical decision. Besides outside of the Resistance becoming the Restoration and the existence of Wispons most of the Forces elements are kinda phased out now. 

Also personally I'd argue that the first season gave you all the information you need to understand who all these characters and their relationships are. I know everyone hated the rotating team up angle of the last year but it gave all the characters time in the spotlight to be introduced to new readers.

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C'mon, Forces sucked but can we agree that the story was full of opportunities? I wouldn't tell the same story again, as much as it does need fixing, but these comics do something better, new stories out of that base. I can still tell by the Restoration which is basically a Resistance without Knuckles leading, and something that is more about restoring the corrupted world and people, Whisper's character and backstory basically is all tied to Forces, the wispons obviously, even the world that we're still exploring in season 2, the map, etc. just look at that web screen Amy is looking at in the preview.

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Hm...is there a point being missed here?

47 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Also personally I'd argue that the first season gave you all the information you need to understand who all these characters and their relationships are. I know everyone hated the rotating team up angle of the last year but it gave all the characters time in the spotlight to be introduced to new readers.

Vector and Espio?

15 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

C'mon, Forces sucked but can we agree that the story was full of opportunities? I wouldn't tell the same story again, as much as it does need fixing, but these comics do something better, new stories out of that base. 

Opportunities that the game didn't do much with and that the comic isn't allowed to do much more with for the most part. 

Not to mention the spot I potentially puts the games' story in.

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10 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

Ehh, sorry but no. Besides the fact that even the writer stated he's using a vastly different approach, I can tell by… the actual book.

So can everyone else. Doesn’t mean there aren’t any similarities despite that.

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How are Archie and IDW even similar? Same team (mostly) working on it, but I'm talking about the book, the tone, the stories, the details, the cast, the writing and narrative techniques.

You literally just listed them.

On top of that add mercenary groups and the main premise building on Forces, which itself is similar to Archie Sonic pre-reboot of Eggman having devastated the world and still continuing to do so, and Dr. Starline who takes direct inspiration from Dr. Finitivus, and Metal Virus arc essentially being Roboticization in the form of a biological plague. Never mind that Eggman here is just as ruthless and evil as he was back in Archie.

All of what IDW is doing would be right at home with Archie despite the aspects it differs from, although Archies had the benefit of being inclusive to anything of the Sonic Franchise it was able to use.

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I'm pretty sure I'm not the only writer around here, there are various in the fandom, but I recognize writing differences when I see them, and eventually, bad writing (in general).

You do understand that “similar” doesn’t mean “exact same thing,” right? And having writing differences doesn’t make them incomparable, nor does that make one good or bad, the latter of which even this comic isn’t immune from.

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So why is it Archie-lite (without the Freedom Fighters I assume)? There is a more simple approach, no huge fanservice and obscure stuff for the most part, it's targeted to kids and teens, people who play the games, unlike Archie it doesn't try to connect the Whole timeline of games,

You know full and well that’s a bold faced lie, especially when Post-reboot was doing just that with its world building.

Either that or you flat out weren’t even reading them, but I know for a fact that you have.

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it has more restrictions due to them working closely with SEGA this time, like no past, no classics apparently, a really smaller cast, they only introduced 5 new entries in the main comic, in season 2 literally no one, they are slowly introducing more game characters though. Shorter arcs, simpler stories, no baggage like in the Archie comic, no heavy history and complicated stuff, no romance, no over abundance of the cast, no excessive world building in every issue, shorter arcs… call them rushed but at least they don't last over 3 years.

Do have anything that doesn’t sum up as “Archie Bad, IDW Good?” Because it’s transparent as hell and beyond silly.

You act like comparing the two is somehow an affront against something sacred in this comic as if that’s something to hold a grudge against Archie for. And there is plenty to criticize IDW for its lack of world building, and simplicity, and exclusion of characters—it’s not perfect anymore than Archie was. Never mind the difference in characterizing characters like Shadow, who’s a lot more prideful and arrogant than he really should be even as the Ultimate Lifeform.

And a lot of people have actually disliked those restrictions put upon it by Sega, many of which carried over from Archie anyway adding more to the comparison.

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Archie was literally a book of excesses, like… too much. This is simple, basic storytelling for simple fans.

So basically “Archie-lite.”

And that “excess” you mock Archie for is one of its strengths given how it amalgamated the games and the cartoons together along with it own unique elements while still maintaining a solid structure, mainly during Ian’s run although Penders, as much as I hate the man, was capable of putting some kind of structure far better than Sega is currently doing with Sonic now (which is saying a lot considering how he later fucked everything up anyway).

If you want some criticism of IDW, most of the cast is a lot less 3-Dimensional from how they were in Archie—almost all the game characters had a background that built their psychologies into the characters they were as opposed to being something we should expect them to be, denying us a lot of the “why” these characters are who they are, aside from those like Shadow and Knuckles—we’re just supposed to take their appearances as is. There’s far fewer antagonists, which benefits Eggman by keeping him the major threat, but he also has fewer minions, which is a downgrade to the more organized and diverse armed force he had with both the Dark Egg Legion and the Egg Army with actual flesh and blood members willing to fight for him for any personal reason, making conflicts, interactions, and characterization more dynamic and multi-faceted than they are here when they’re simplified as to being with Sonic or Eggman as opposed to having their own personal goals independent from either one as their own character.

But it’s a far cry from what Boom did by being absolutely nothing like the games or the cartoons by design—which in itself isn’t a bad thing either given the praise of the cartoon at least.

Being simple doesn’t inherently make it good—if anything, it inherently more insulting to treat an audience as simple when they’re capable of handling more than you think.

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As someone who doesn't really dislike IDW Sonic, calling the book "Archie-lite" feels both accurate but not completely at the same time.

It is accurate in that the book does feel like it wants to be it's own unique thing with it's own dynamics and characters. Like Archie before it, it's not afraid to do it's own thing while trying to feel authentic to the game universe in feel. A great example of this is probably Dr. Starline, who continues the comic tradition of giving Eggman a unique second in command just as Snively and Grimer did before him. Starline's existence when Orbot and Cubot are still around shows the comic is willing to add to the status quo from the games instead of just accepting that as the only default. At the same time though, the only other real example is the Restoration organization, which is itself a continuation of the concept from Forces. Everything else is a direct 1:1 ratio of how it works in the games (minus how directionless Team Dark feels without the GUN tie in - but that's also sort of accurate to the games now so *shrugs*). There are no Freedom Fighters as Sonic's primary supporting cast, there is no significant world building beyond generic terms for generic places when a Sega location isn't being featured, and there isn't any seeds or story beats being planted with an eye towards the future - just focus on the story currently being told. While all of these things can be seen as departures from what Archie did both pre and post reboot, they can also be seen as essentially trying to do what Archie did just being cut off at the knee before it can go all the way with the ideas. Trying to tell Archie Sonic like stories within the main canon essentially - trying to have the cake and eat it too.

Where it doesn't feel accurate to call it Archie-lite is that many, not all but many, of those choices feel deliberate on Ian and IDW's behalf. Probably the best example of this is the new original characters and the focus on the here and now in terms of story. The new original characters are being introduced as if they would organically fit in the games. Tangle, Whisper, and Starline are introduced as stand alone characters; they may have their own backstories with other unique characters (Whisper and Mirage) but focus is placed on what their unique moveset would be (Tangle with her tail, Whisper with the Wispons) or their own unique personality, which is a far cry from how Archie worked new characters (especially post reboot with the glut of Freedom Fighter teams and unique organizations like the Egg Bosses). Ian has also admitted on more than one occasion that the new story format is because he's burnt out planning ahead and then being forced to abandon those plans. He set up and planned a lot for pre and post reboot Archie and so this third time he's like "Nah, not worth it.". Which isn't necessarily a negative choice - you can tell great stories focused just on the here and now - and arguably that's how Sega has always done it with their stories. But regardless, it's clearly a decision that was influenced by what happened with Archie, but beyond that feels like a genuine creative decision rather than a limitation.

So calling IDW "Archie Sonic lite" does feel accurate to me - it does feel like it's trying to do many things similar to Archie's method just without going all the way with it. At the same time, it doesn't feel like the book's choices are always IDW being denied from making the book Archie 2 - a lot of the decisions are based on choices the creative team are making on their own. So, feeling like the book isn't just Archie Sonic but less is also true.

As to whether the changes from Archie Sonic make IDW Sonic better... got to admit I personally don't think so. While I appreciate the new characters feeling more unique than most of the bit players in pre and post reboot Archie, I feel like Archie had more unique characters than IDW does. The problem is that most of the minor characters in pre and post reboot Archie weren't terribly unique because they were meant to be background characters essentially - just three dimensional ones. By contrast, when a background character is needed for IDW Sonic, they are literally just meant to be a background character, with Ian having to be strong armed into even giving them names. They are meant to be some one dimensional nobody to tell Sonic, the interesting character, what he needs to know. Versus Archie where each character had a unique quirk or position to inform us who they were and what function they served so we could revisit and explore them more later. In general, I vastly prefer the Archie approach to what Ian's doing in the IDW comic. As for story, this is another easy when for both versions of Archie Sonic. While I understand Ian's burnt out on fleshing out the sandbox he's in, I can definitely feel that burn out and if effects how invested I am in the story. I'll be blunt, if IDW sonic were cancelled tomorrow I'd be disappointed we didn't get more unique characters and that would be it. Nothing in the story makes me care about what's happening (which given we're in a freaking zombie apocalypse story - is *really* bad). The plot feels like it's slogging along and directionless. Very few things seem to happen from issue to issue and makes reading the issue more of a chore than something I look forward to. The mystery angle for the first half of the Neo Metal Sonic arc was at least something to try and untangle, and there were new unique characters to meet along the way. But here, the story beats are always "who will be next" and "will Sonic find a way to stop this" which is just not as interesting as new and unique ideas. And the Zombot is a somewhat unique idea, but I learned everything about it in it's first appearance and it's now rinsing and repeating over and over again. I just find it boring. I am interested in the Tangle and Whisper mini series which is actually introducing new characters and plots, but I'm super done with the Metal Virus Arc and hearing David Mariotte saying we're getting ready to enter "part 2" of the arc makes me more exhausted than excited.

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59 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

So basically, it seems like the Metal Virus arc has a similar fatigue to it that the Shattered World Crisis arc did?

 

In a way, yes. 

While I personally didn't feel it, the Unleashed adaptation did go on for nearly three years and is practically all of the New252. Of course, it had the edge of doing far more in that time, including a Sonic the Fighters arc and the Silver Age, and was unfortunately delayed a couple of times, including Worlds Unite.

Meanwhile, my previous comment definitely applies to the Metal Virus saga in that, as X gave it to ya, its largely the same sorta stuff each time with only the introduction of more game characters and the Whisper miniseries breaking it up. 

And as someone who spent a lot of time with TWDG despite myself, it ain't exactly my cup of tea. 

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I'm not fatigued by the story but I do find myself getting increasingly annoyed by the constant delays and shuffling of dates. 

Also, holy shit, was Shattered Crisis really almost 3 years? Thats a long time for something that amounted to just a ton of set-up for stories we'll never see. Though it had a pretty awesome ending.

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23 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I'm not fatigued by the story but I do find myself getting increasingly annoyed by the constant delays and shuffling of dates. 

Also, holy shit, was Shattered Crisis really almost 3 years? Thats a long time for something that amounted to just a ton of set-up for stories we'll never see. Though it had a pretty awesome ending.

Oh yeah man.

At All Costs Part 2 was September 2013, World's Unite lasted May to August 2015 and Panic in the Sky Part 4 brought things to a close in October 2016.

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I feel like I'm the only person in the world that enjoyed the Shattered World Crisis Saga. 

It used Unleashed as a decent backdrop to introduce it's new world and the only part I feel it really dragged was the keys bit but for the most part I enjoyed the Post-reboot was more than Pre-reboot. 

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I feel like I'm the only person in the world that enjoyed the Shattered World Crisis Saga. 

I liked Shattered World Crisis too. In a lot of ways it was a step up from the original source by putting almost every characters’ hands on deck and involving them instead of ignoring them like Unleashed did.

I just thought it handled itself poorly and was in an obvious rush to climax near the final parts to the point it felt like it was just dragging things until the end.

Mind you, I place most of the blame on SWC’s faults on Worlds Unite for coming in at the absolute worst moment. But it still goes without saying that SWC could’ve done a much better job than it did in several places, notably in how it handled Chip.

At the very least, it provided a damn good send off for the series before IDW.

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Besides the fact that I still disagree with IDW being similar to Archie, I think to call it Archie-lite is disgusting because it sounds like this is worse than that disjointed mess Archie was not including the ugly set of main characters. I definitely disliked the Shattered Whatever Saga because 3 years for an adaptation that I'm just not invested in was so tiring, but aside from a couple of good arcs it was just world building and characters introductions.

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1 hour ago, Tangled Jack said:

Besides the fact that I still disagree with IDW being similar to Archie, I think to call it Archie-lite is disgusting because it sounds like this is worse than that disjointed mess Archie was not including the ugly set of main characters.

Which is the complete opposite of what is actually being said, so you’re really just looking for something to be offended over to the point of stirring things up when they don’t need to be...

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9 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I liked Shattered World Crisis too. In a lot of ways it was a step up from the original source by putting almost every characters’ hands on deck and involving them instead of ignoring them like Unleashed did.

I just thought it handled itself poorly and was in an obvious rush to climax near the final parts to the point it felt like it was just dragging things until the end.

Mind you, I place most of the blame on SWC’s faults on Worlds Unite for coming in at the absolute worst moment. But it still goes without saying that SWC could’ve done a much better job than it did in several places, notably in how it handled Chip.

At the very least, it provided a damn good send off for the series before IDW.

Yeah, apparently, there was some limitations on SEGA's ends regarding how much they used Chip, iirc.

Wasn't there also a delay or too near the end as well?

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Fucking hell, I know they don’t want another situation like Penders, but Sega just can’t resist being overprotective to the point of being inflexible, huh?

It's both consistent and confusing: they weren't allowed to even show him for the Another Time Another Place backup(which is why it ends abruptly with Sonic transforming back after landing), but then they greenlit an entire arc around his sole appearance for what ended up being nearly all of the reboot. 

Not to mention he's 60% comic relief anyway. 

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I wish they would approve a Blaze miniseries, by listenning to Ian Flynn's enthusiasm about exploring the Sol dimension on his latest bumblekast. But SEGA wouldnt want origin stories to their official characters...

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