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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The way I see it even if the choices are left in the player's hands they all have to reflect something about Shadow, otherwise the game spends most of its runtime saying absolutely nothing, just pitching what-ifs that couldn't possibly happen.

This is a fair reading. I'll concede to this point. 

 

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

He is less aggressive in '06, but I don't see that as meaning those elements have been retired entirely. He's still the type to run off on his own to take care of things and Rouge and Omega kinda have to insert themselves into his business, for one. He doesn't fight with Sonic in '06 just because there isn't reason to, not because he's beyond their rivalry entirely.

Kind of, but Shadow only got involved to begin with to get Rouge out of a jam. You could argue that he was just following orders but I think it was earlier in this thread we were arguing the opposite case where he got involved to make sure Rouge was safe in the first place. It's at least up to interpretation.

I'd also argue that most of the times Shadow provokes Sonic in SA2 are completely unnecessary for the sake of his plan. The fact that he doesn't just fuck with him for the sake of it anymore is probably the most clear sign of growth. You're right that I was kinda glossing over a lot of Shadows older habits still being present in my last post, though. 

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And, bringing it back to IDW, it's not like he's been pissed at Sonic without reason. In his introduction he's pissed about Forces, intends to be more proactive in stopping Eggman rather than risking another world takeover, and Sonic gets in his way; it's understandable that two people committed to doing things their own way would butt heads when the situation forces them against each other. And in the metal virus arc, he's pissed at Sonic because it's a result of that previous encounter; if Sonic hadn't talked him out of dealing with Eggman at the time, they likely wouldn't be in that situation. He tried listening to Sonic and it's what got them into this mess, so he's predisposed to not listen to him again and trust his own judgement. And he notably doesn't pick a fight with Sonic during the fight with Metal; he's still standoffish and prone to acting on his own but he's still focused on the bigger picture.

 

 Worth noting that I didn't have a problem with the original fight. There's some logistic issues with it but nothing wrong with how either character behaved.

"Cowards don't run" is just my only sticking point, as I feel like that whole sequence is surprisingly silly and short sighted of him. Rouge even points out that he normally listens to her if not Sonic. 

Characters can make mistakes and have relapses, so if you wanted to read it that way then that's fair. I think it's a missed opportunity and sort of a sloppily handled way of taking him out of a story I wish he stayed in. It leans on OOC and reminds me of more extreme examples but it can also be read as just a hotheaded moment.

I'm gonna try not to argue about this plot point anymore since its been going on for too long, lol.

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I agree with the disappointment of Shadow not getting his own stories of course… yet, the book is very young, you have to remember that, maybe instead of giving a miniseries immediately to Tangle & Whisper, I'd have done some more appealable like a Shadow story, or maybe involve him in T&W rather than in the main book, I understand it's a world crisis, so Team Dark has to appear in some way, but if you can't do him justice in 2 issues don't make him appear at all, should have focused on less characters IMO. Then say he's busy somewhere else, off-screen in the human world? I don't know, there could be excuses, but I have to say he makes for a great victim as a Zombot too, he is not the usual you know… heroic sacrifice, it's something different, I just wish he was explored more and be more than a random zombie, make him a powerful one at least, give him conscience.

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50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And how is that humbling?

Shadow's entire....existence is uh... what's a good word. Artificial. Shadow was created, augmented whichever you believe to be the ultimate life form, he has his memories manipulated. When he was first created he had one of the first people he had ever interacted with tell him he needed to protect the planet. Then his other demon alien dad tells him that he's actually a super cool alien and he needs to listen to him.

Shadow's entire everything is him acting on other peoples directions because he doesn't know what to do. He shouldn't his life experience is fairly limited. Shadow reasonably so developed somewhat of  a complex about that in games where his memory is intact he's the ultimate life forms, in other's where he isn't so sure of who he is, he feels compelled by old memories to move forward even if he doesn't understands them. Shadow is a character who doesn't know what normal is or who he is at the beginning of the game. He just see's him self as... a hero, an evil? eh? Someone above everyone else.

Over the course of the game he learns about who he is, and the more he learns about who made him, he doesn't like it . Its depressing or actively causes him to commit awful acts. The the climax of this game late into the final ending, shadow's self actualization is him essentially throwing a lot of that away and just being...shadow. Literally represented by him throwing the picture away at the end.

This is humbling because shadow's only identity up until that point was titles, designations given by other people, goals given to him by other people, and at the end of the game for him to move forward he kinda has to shed that. He's shadow, he maybe technically all those other things, but above all that or when you take that away... he's shadow. Which a lot less...amazing compared to some dark prince the leader of some alien race deep from space, or a living weapon.

He's just a guy trying his best because he doesn't know what to do, but that's all he can do to be happy. And that's humbling. Yeah maria will always influence him a bit, but she's not the sole focus. As he states in every ending " THIS IS WHO I AM " and I dunno if you missed that but its very clear this is why he's saying this. He's literally trying to figure out who he is , because he's confused and all he knows is...duty. But he's never stopped to think " who am I "

So yeah he goes from being the ultimate life form, or some alien prince, or some government weapon to just...shadow. And that's humbling, because that's the only way he can move forward. This is reflected in 06's story, infact its all of shadow's story. When given the option to be the villian people want to paint him as, or some grand ruler of the world or the universe . He chooses shadow, being shadow's better than that. Being humble is better than that. That's literally shadow's entire like character arc

 

Its why shadow's current characterization is kind of odd, he seems to have regressed back into accepting titles for who he is, rather than he himself designating who he is . His self actualization has been removed.

17 minutes ago, Tangled Jack said:

I agree with the disappointment of Shadow not getting his own stories of course… yet, the book is very young, you have to remember that, maybe instead of giving a miniseries immediately to Tangle & Whisper, I'd have done some more appealable like a Shadow story, or maybe involve him in T&W rather than in the main book, I understand it's a world crisis, so Team Dark has to appear in some way, but if you can't do him justice in 2 issues don't make him appear at all, should have focused on less characters IMO. Then say he's busy somewhere else, off-screen in the human world? I don't know, there could be excuses, but I have to say he makes for a great victim as a Zombot too, he is not the usual you know… heroic sacrifice, it's something different, I just wish he was explored more and be more than a random zombie, make him a powerful one at least, give him conscience.

I get the feeling that part of the issue with this and something that has been working its way into how Ian Flynn speaks on the book knowingly or not , is money. I get the feeling they want a big book every summer , where sonic and shadow are at odds or at least in the same book. Kind of a summer block buster. So I get the feeling I may be wrong, I dunno if he can just not go with shadow with out a suitable replacement. There may be people above him with ideas. The book is supposed to be fast an exciting apparently.

All i'm saying is , if you have to do that. If someone says we need that shadow summer blockbuster. ...Try and focus it around shadow. Shadow has yet to have a story that like...introduces him as a character. And he needs that

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I wouldn't count on Shadow getting a mini-series anytime soon. At least for right now. Ian was asked about it and he replied that he'd love to do it but he fears that he wouldn't be able to write it they way he wants to at the moment. This could change down the line (as it often does) but if there's a new mini-series, I'd place my bets on someone he's got more freedom with... which honestly feels like "Literally everyone except Shadow and, for some reason, Germel." Tangle and Whisper was honestly, the perfect gamble. Not only was it free real-estate but it had a connection to Sonic, it came about in the books infancy where the most interest is drudged up, and it opens the door for more risks due to its success. Like, you might actually be able to get away with a Rouge mini-series if a Tangle and Whisper one does good.  

There might be characters who have a bit more restriction on them but it doesn't at all feel like it at the moment. It's still incredibly strange that he's allowed to be more free with Sonic and Eggman than Shadow and Germel. I don't get it. As Kyle said on the podcast, "That's weird. You'd think it'd be the other way around." 

Especially since they don't even use Germel anymore. Why the hell do they care about how he's portrayed in the comic? I understand (sort of) not wanting to use certain characters but... eh. Whatever.

SEGA/Sonic Team, thank you for allowing the comics to exist but... it's always gotta be complicated with you guys. 

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I wouldn't count on Shadow getting a mini-series anytime soon. At least for right now. Ian was asked about it and he replied that he'd love to do it but he fears that he wouldn't be able to write it they way he wants to at the moment. This could change down the line (as it often does) but if there's a new mini-series, I'd place my bets on someone he's got more freedom with... which honestly feels like "Literally everyone except Shadow and, for some reason, Germel." Tangle and Whisper was honestly, the perfect gamble. Not only was it free real-estate but it had a connection to Sonic, it came about in the books infancy where the most interest is drudged up, and it opens the door for more risks due to its success. Like, you might actually be able to get away with a Rouge mini-series if a Tangle and Whisper one does good.  

There might be characters who have a bit more restriction on them but it doesn't at all feel like it at the moment. It's still incredibly strange that he's allowed to be more free with Sonic and Eggman than Shadow and Germel. I don't get it. As Kyle said on the podcast, "That's weird. You'd think it'd be the other way around." 

Especially since they don't even use Germel anymore. Why the hell do they care about how he's portrayed in the comic? I understand (sort of) not wanting to use certain characters but... eh. Whatever.

SEGA/Sonic Team, thank you for allowing the comics to exist but... it's always gotta be complicated with you guys. 

Like I mentioned above whether he wants to do a shadow mini or not may not be up to him in future.

 

And no yeah why gemril. Like...why?

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If they get access to the human world, and I don't think there is a mandate against that, Ian can write stories about Shadow and GUN, didn't he also say he's love to do that concept as a permanent book? That was during Archie reboot days, now there are more restrictions sure, the point is still that he loves the idea, it's gonna happen someday, when Sega becomes more reasonable. Considering Episode Shadow, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, really.

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1 hour ago, Tangled Jack said:

If they get access to the human world, and I don't think there is a mandate against that, Ian can write stories about Shadow and GUN, didn't he also say he's love to do that concept as a permanent book? That was during Archie reboot days, now there are more restrictions sure, the point is still that he loves the idea, it's gonna happen someday, when Sega becomes more reasonable. Considering Episode Shadow, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, really.

I think has said he can, issue is he thinks the concept is too confusing to start our with

With shadow in particular sega has changed him for better ( confirmed gun disconnect) and for worse ( shadows current personality or lack their of) in a way I dont think he can work with in the way he wants. This is ontop of any restrictions they may put on, he isnt privy too yet or ones he is aware of. Cant write a shadow and gun story if he dont work for em. And do you want to write a story about gun if they are acting crazy about stuff right now. Ian seems apprehensive to test some waters and it makes sense.

And maybe sega does move shadow In a better direction, cool. If they dont, which is also very possible it makes things complicated

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5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, its not like we haven't had conflicting characterizations before 2010; this has been a problem with the series for a while. Its just that before Colors, they at least TRIED to be somewhat consistent.

 

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

If you're going to give a character arc about a character overcoming their innermost issues, but still want them to have some level of flaws that just makes it all the more important for there to be some level of consistency so their actions make sense to the reader otherwise we end up in situations like this questioning why said character is acting in such a way contrary to what they have experienced before. 

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a flawed character, but there's a time and a place for it. I don't think Shadow's actions in the Metal Virus saga are meant to be reflective of any great character arc but that Ian wanted him out of the story, likely to increase the stakes, and was mandated by Sega on how to do it. 

Essentially.

5 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

And, bringing it back to IDW, it's not like he's been pissed at Sonic without reason. In his introduction he's pissed about Forces, intends to be more proactive in stopping Eggman rather than risking another world takeover, and Sonic gets in his way; it's understandable that two people committed to doing things their own way would butt heads when the situation forces them against each other. And in the metal virus arc, he's pissed at Sonic because it's a result of that previous encounter; if Sonic hadn't talked him out of dealing with Eggman at the time, they likely wouldn't be in that situation. He tried listening to Sonic and it's what got them into this mess, so he's predisposed to not listen to him again and trust his own judgement. And he notably doesn't pick a fight with Sonic during the fight with Metal; he's still standoffish and prone to acting on his own but he's still focused on the bigger picture.

But that's sorta the start of it, isn't?

Forces is the big backdrop of this comic and Shadow's actions should logically play off his role in that game, but certain elements of it aren't really allowed to be used or delved into. And Shadow didn't really talk about why Mr. Tinker needs to be taken care of outside of the obvious "It's Eggman."

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Ian should definitely hold off on a Shadow mini-series until Sega stop yanking the leash with him over the character.

Sucks, because he’s probably one of the few official writers that actually knows how to write him good. Heck, he even made the Black Arms more interesting than he should have, and I’ve been on record years back saying they should be removed. (For added irony, I was a total fanboy over ShTH when I was a young teen before I started knowing better. Lol)

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23 hours ago, Whispering Ultima said:

Issue 24's delayed not 23, that's coming 27th December. Tangle and Whisper #4 is coming on the first week of December I think.

Ahh ok , I get confused with these release dates sometimes. I order mine from Forbidden Planet in the UK and they originally had 23 down for the 13th of November. As for T&W number 4 they've completely took it down and on my pre-order page for it it just says "We'll ship this item when it's in stock" with no further date mentioned.

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I’m sure issue 23 was said to be out on 20 Nov not that long ago, trying to work out if this is a delay or if I misread it. Ah well. Looking forward to it, just feels like an age between each issue.

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On 11/11/2019 at 10:16 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Ian should definitely hold off on a Shadow mini-series until Sega stop yanking the leash with him over the character.

Sucks, because he’s probably one of the few official writers that actually knows how to write him good. Heck, he even made the Black Arms more interesting than he should have, and I’ve been on record years back saying they should be removed. (For added irony, I was a total fanboy over ShTH when I was a young teen before I started knowing better. Lol)

Issue with this is as i mention before. When is that? That could be never, that could be tomorrow. For all parties involved he can't not write a shadow miniseries , he has to sell books and that would sell books. Eventually too many people who say don't pay attention to the ins and outs of sega/sonic team marketing decisions, most of the reading audience , would just want that story. Then you have his iDW bosses wanting to sell books, then you have sega at some point wanting to potentially push the character hella hard again. Heck him being changed might be indicative of that, especially when the adventure era nostalgia they are starting to lean into. " We need to get shadow simple so we can start putting him in games again." Says some dummy at sega of America whilst ruby eclipse puts his head in his hands. And Ian Flynn can't just go " Well he's not the way I want him " because they will just find someone else to do it that isn't him. And that's the issue with this whole thing. Its not just A business. Its two, its an eventuality and he can't just not. The reason we are having a conversation about this right now is because people are already NOW asking about it. And that's only going to increase over time.

That's why I think the bets option would be instead of avoiding it. Dive in head first. Make a story figure out some boundaries with the character, Create a baseline to which you , other writers and the audience can get when moving forward

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I'm under the impression that if the movie will do well, they'll make the two worlds thing canon in the game and comic universes too. Currently they are leaving it open on purpose, and that explains why they avoid talking about it, but there's a chance that if people will accept it, they'll finally make it canon once for all (since the movie is about the two worlds and humans, it's possible that it will have influence in this decision).

On the other hand, if the movie flops and people will hate humans with Sonic even more than now, we probably won't see any other human in the franchise that's not Eggman from now on.

Though it's likely that the two worlds setup is the only option to have a human world and an animal world coexist.

Anyway, I never liked GUN in the game universe so I'm ok with them not mentioning it anymore. Real world inspired politics and army in Sonic is not something that fits well in my opinion.

If they clarify this human world thing, they can just say that Shadow once worked for the government in the human world, and it would be enough to reference the GUN and all the SA2 to 06 stuff, no need to explain any futher. This is not related to Shadow's personality but at least it would fix his backstory.

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4 hours ago, Iko said:

I'm under the impression that if the movie will do well, they'll make the two worlds thing canon in the game and comic universes too. Currently they are leaving it open on purpose, and that explains why they avoid talking about it, but there's a chance that if people will accept it, they'll finally make it canon once for all (since the movie is about the two worlds and humans, it's possible that it will have influence in this decision).

It already was.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

On the other hand, if the movie flops and people will hate humans with Sonic even more than now, we probably won't see any other human in the franchise that's not Eggman from now on.

I don't think these things are mutually exclusive.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

 

Anyway, I never liked GUN in the game universe so I'm ok with them not mentioning it anymore. Real world inspired politics and army in Sonic is not something that fits well in my opinion.

Sonic From jump is about a robo dictator who looks like an american president ruining the enviroment and the animal people he's trying to enslave literally fighting for their freedom. Sonic at is core, no matter what tone has always had a fight the power, fight overbearing governments and people trying to ruin the environment vibe and GUN worked for a time. Its just that the time is long past. The character that hold's all their relevance ( shadow ) has moved past them ...so...yeah. If you need a new non eggman enemy why would suggest a new government like entity for the characters to punch to keep in theme.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

If they clarify this human world thing, they can just say that Shadow once worked for the government in the human world, and it would be enough to reference the GUN and all the SA2 to 06 stuff, no need to explain any futher. This is not related to Shadow's personality but at least it would fix his backstory.

I get the feeling they don't care to do that

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20 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Issue with this is as i mention before. When is that? That could be never, that could be tomorrow.

It will be when Ian makes a submission that does the character justice and Sega aren’t rigid enough to say no and throw it out.

Of all writers of the Sonic cast who have written Shadow, I trust Ian the most as the one who really understands this character. And the less he’s forced to write Shadow as a character with his pride so high it makes Vegita look modest with a stringent set of rules limiting him, the better. 

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6 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

It will be when Ian makes a submission that does the character justice and Sega aren’t rigid enough to say no and throw it out.

Or sega's like " Yo why isn't there more material of this character " or sega makes him do it. Because they can and literally have done that before. Sega never has to stop being rigid they quite literally have all the power in this situation. Ian Flynn has little to none, as he will say himself " I'm just a writer I don't what goes on in those big meetings "

Quote

Of all writers of the Sonic cast who have written Shadow, I trust Ian the most as the one who really understands this character. And the less he’s forced to write Shadow as a character with his pride so high it makes Vegita look modest with a stringent set of rules limiting him, the better. 

I agree. Life isn't fair and eventually IDW, Sega or both are gonna wonder why such a draw isn't getting solo material. Or at least on sega's end more material tailored and catered to him so they can include it with products. And then He will either make that solo material or someone else will be writing these comics. And that would suck. So its not uh he can stay away from it, he can try but eventually its going to catch up with him . That's why I suggest deal with it now

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11 hours ago, Iko said:

I'm under the impression that if the movie will do well, they'll make the two worlds thing canon in the game and comic universes too. Currently they are leaving it open on purpose, and that explains why they avoid talking about it, but there's a chance that if people will accept it, they'll finally make it canon once for all (since the movie is about the two worlds and humans, it's possible that it will have influence in this decision).

They already retconned it in.
 

11 hours ago, Iko said:

On the other hand, if the movie flops and people will hate humans with Sonic even more than now, we probably won't see any other human in the franchise that's not Eggman from now on.

The whole job of the Two-Worlds retcon was to provide a way to write out non-Eggman humans and their environments thanks to the backlash against both characters like Elise and the plots in the Adventure Era games. Alongside also trying to tape over the clashing visual styles and tones.

11 hours ago, Iko said:

Though it's likely that the two worlds setup is the only option to have a human world and an animal world coexist.

It's not (Naka already told us all how it works long ago) but don't tell that Iizuka and Co.

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7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Or sega's like " Yo why isn't there more material of this character " or sega makes him do it. Because they can and literally have done that before. Sega never has to stop being rigid they quite literally have all the power in this situation. Ian Flynn has little to none, as he will say himself " I'm just a writer I don't what goes on in those big meetings "

I’m pretty sure there’s plenty of material of Shadow of all characters. His main problem is characterization.

And I’d think they should be wise enough to listen to the guy writing their stuff who wants to help make their product better. For all the power they have and what little Ian has in comparison, they were involved in rehiring him back to write for their comics to begin with knowing his acclaim. That has a enough pull for them to hear him out if he’s going to work for them, especially since it would take pressure off of them having to do it or to risk having someone else who doesn’t have that history with them, however much that may be.

Just because someone works for you doesn’t mean they don’t have good ideas. It’s one thing to be protective of one’s work, but Ian history shows he knows enough of what he’s doing with their product.

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I agree. Life isn't fair and eventually IDW, Sega or both are gonna wonder why such a draw isn't getting solo material. Or at least on sega's end more material tailored and catered to him so they can include it with products. And then He will either make that solo material or someone else will be writing these comics. And that would suck. So its not uh he can stay away from it, he can try but eventually its going to catch up with him . That's why I suggest deal with it now

I think you overestimate how much Sega actually care about that. Ian isn't going to lose his job if he doesn't propose a Shadow comic, and even if Sega cared enough to suggest making one, you're out of your mind if you think Ian wouldn't jump at the chance to do something with him even in his more limited characterization in this series, because it wouldn't be impossible to do something with him anyway.

Shadow isn't being ignored in IDW or whatever bullshit fanboy logic that keeps getting thrown around in this thread every month when this character comes up.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I’m pretty sure there’s plenty of material of Shadow of all characters. His main problem is characterization.

Eh? I dunno the exact tip sega is on but usually you want books of popular characters in isolation so you can like package it with stuff. Or at least the events are pretty easy to process. I don't think shadow has any of that in IDW. That fits that bill. ( its part of the reason why he's bad )

 

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

And I’d think they should be wise enough to listen to the guy writing their stuff who wants to help make their product better. For all the power they have and what little Ian has in comparison, they were involved in rehiring him back to write for their comics to begin with knowing his acclaim. That has a enough pull for them to hear him out if he’s going to work for them, especially since it would take pressure off of them having to do it or to risk having someone else who doesn’t have that history with them, however much that may be.

Just because someone works for you doesn’t mean they don’t have good ideas. It’s one thing to be protective of one’s work, but Ian history shows he knows enough of what he’s doing with their product.

I agree with what you are saying. Like you preaching to choir here. My point is , sega is being a dummy boy.

28 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I think you overestimate how much Sega actually care about that. Ian isn't going to lose his job if he doesn't propose a Shadow comic,

Eh?

Actually there's precedent for it. Not just sega desiring certain stories. But Sega particularly demanding authors to write more shadow stuff . If say there isn't any shadow miniseries after a few other ones. Odds are the fanbase will make noise about it, the people who manage the community will know about it, one of which is the guy who got Ian flynn hired. And questions will be asked. And this information gets to someone who's handling the sonic franchise higher than that, demands will be made. Because its actually happened before.

Second point. My example was to paraphrase myself , if sega or idw comes asking  " hey why isn't there more shadow material " Ian flynn can't just go " well I don't like how his character is right now" because they will just go " Do your job " and he would have to or get fired. So in that scenario yes he may infact loose his job. This is a scenario he talks about on his podcast where he's worked with stuff, he didn't like, or understand because he likes having a job and he's replaceable.

So the short version is

They care as much as the fanbase cares. And Shadow's really popular so they do

And yes he could get fired if he doesn't comply with the people who employ him, he will tell you that himself. He's a contract worker.

28 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

and even if Sega cared enough to suggest making one, you're out of your mind if you think Ian wouldn't jump at the chance to do something with him even in his more limited characterization in this series, because it wouldn't be impossible to do something with him anyway.

I think Ian flynn said recently he would rather avoid telling a shadow story because he has to be written a certain way. Ontop of that people ask him about aspects of his character, he kinda just sighs depressed because he can't do anything because he has to be written a certain way. I don't think he's jumping at the chance these days like before.

But he would try his best , and at least I would appreciate it.

28 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Shadow isn't being ignored in IDW or whatever bullshit fanboy logic that keeps getting thrown around in this thread every month when this character comes up.

I say this in all due respect. What in the hell are you talking about? did you read my words. No one said anything about anyone being upset or suggesting that shadow be ignored.

My entire point which is above this is literally " eh , he can't avoid it forever. Shadow's really popular, odds are he's gonna get used again. Sega's gonna want material shadow books sell and both of his corporate overlords are gonna want more stuff. Maybe do a shadow book now to like establish who the hell new shadow is and at least have a working baseline. So if he has to make more specific material in the future at least the audience is more acclimated to who the character is supposed to be.  Because corporate entities don't care what you like, so I dunno strategize around the capitalistic apathy .  "

That's my point, a rather depressing criticism of capitalism in this situation. I don't know how you got shadow fanboyism out of that. I'm quite literally confused. My posts are above this or if this ends up on the next page, they are on the previous one. You can find them.

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