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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

It is funny he was totally not green and his girlfriend was red with a new found appreciation for black. 

It wouldn't be the first time people walked around legal lines to parody a character. One of my favorites is the deathstroke issue with alt universe deathstroke that's just deadpool.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

1. I think it's different in the sense that it's coming from him directly and he had time to think through his answer compared to saying to someone at a con and they paraphrase it online. 

Sure, if he's competent he'll be fine ain't nothing I can do but hope he is right. I just would been more vague about it

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

2. I don't think his next couple of stories includes Shadow anyway, so it might just be more of necessity to plan for other stuff in the meantime. Plus given things like Team Dark apparently not being a team anymore, it could also be a lack of a clear comfortable framework to start with at the moment. 

Sure, but with this

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I can live without Shadow story (I'll be SAD, but I'll live), just let him do something right for once.

So far he's outdone by children. At least Charmy scarified himself in noble way, while Cream talked down Gemerl. And they both directly saved few people.

 

....now that I think of it, Shadow didn't even defeated single enemy. He skipped all badnik bashing and obviously punching Zombots does nothing. And unlike Omega or Gemerl, he didn't directly protected anyone.

 

This in combination with his previous statements is kind of a bad look. Its why I said I would have been more vague. In this scenario if you read his ( ian's ) statements on the matter he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do , a character got assed out, they aren't showing up. And that assed out period is what we will be left with. One of the reasons I have a bit more critical of Ian's Involvement because as an artist i'm a bit less sympathetic on this end, when working on other peoples IP...sometimes you gotta do stuff you don't think is good. Its the nature of the beast. Its your job to interpret it in a way that makes it look good and interesting.  And this statement after shadow's trip and fall , is kinda of a bad look I guess?

Now, I myself think the solution to this problem is , whoever at sonic team/sega keeps having the same bad idea needs to stop talking and stop dictating things not just for shadow, but a myriad of things. I think most of the people here have a more or less nuanced version of this desire.

But if some guy on reddit or whatever , looks at the sequence of events and comes to conclusion " Ian Flynn sounds kinda petty " I don't agree, but I can't tell him he's wrong. You don't have to twist words to get to that conclusion.  Its not good look , I would have been more vague.  Its just kind of a bad situation.

Hopefully more shadow stuff does come sooner than later, who knows. Maybe he just needs a longer sega approval buffer.

 

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Which even despite that, you can write a crap ton of who and what Shadow is from just what he has had. You can and people have written essays about him.Try doing the same with like Cream the Rabbit or her mother, any of the Chaotix, Mighty and Ray, Rouge,  heck even Big (Meme status has basically resurrected his character from the dead, might as well do something wild with him). Shadow is vastly fleshed out compared to most and some would argue all of the other characters. Sure the last time he was seriously explored in 2006 (Though he did have a side dlc campaign recently), he is still undeniably more fleshed out and stronger as a character than most of the others. I know more about him in his 5 years of game focus, than I do about characters who have appeared over nearly 2 decades. Knuckles is the only one who even can try to claim to be close to him, and I'd say he pales. 

I would say again, those games came out over a decade ago. But even more so than that, to be blunt some characters in sonic just aren't meant to be that complicated. If you want more content for more other folks, that's a fine argument to make. Advocate for the characters you enjoy, I sure as hell do. But arguing shadow has been fleshed out seems pointless because he was built to be that way. A lot of the characters from that era are. There are some characters are just built for that. Like I don't think they need fleshing out. But if you want to see weird stories with your characters where they do weird stuff then , yeah sure that's your prerogative.

I just don't think that you should hold everyone to a shadow standard, if everyone was like that. The book would be come over burdered with lore and kinda boring like its predecessor. If you want more content, cool, I just don't think everyone needs to be fleshed out.

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm not saying I don't want him around. He can appear in the main book plenty more. I just think we need to make characters who are bland or hated even, more likable. Heck I make it very clear I despise the Deadly Six, and if they can make me like them in a spin off book. Go for it. I would probably groan and whine because of my bias against them, but if it means they can be actual characters for once...sure go for it. 

What characters do you think need tuning up

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46 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I would say again, those games came out over a decade ago. But even more so than that, to be blunt some characters in sonic just aren't meant to be that complicated. If you want more content for more other folks, that's a fine argument to make. Advocate for the characters you enjoy, I sure as hell do. But arguing shadow has been fleshed out seems pointless because he was built to be that way. A lot of the characters from that era are. There are some characters are just built for that. Like I don't think they need fleshing out. But if you want to see weird stories with your characters where they do weird stuff then , yeah sure that's your prerogative.

I just don't think that you should hold everyone to a shadow standard, if everyone was like that. The book would be come over burdered with lore and kinda boring like its predecessor. If you want more content, cool, I just don't think everyone needs to be fleshed out.

What characters do you think need tuning up

I think that's a bit of a cop out there. We should be trying to make more characters fleshed out. I'm not saying everyone has to have as much of a backstory as Shadow, but so many characters either are bland, have barely anything worth of note about them, or just plain suck. They need more to them. Shadow doesn't need any solo stories because he's strong enough as is. If we don't help those who need it, we just end up with a bunch of half baked characters and a few good ones.

As I said above I don't think everyone needs to have that much information, but I don't think having only a few characters in a comic series really have anything worth of depth is a good idea either. We should aim to give more to those in need, not build on a foundation that is already strong as is.

Blaze definitely who we barely know jack shit about her world and her princess title barely means anything, so we should do something about that for instance. Rouge is someone who we don't know much about but has had all the potential ideas to flesh out beyond sometimes steals shit and vaguely may do an agent thing once in a while. Starline obviously with being a new character/villain we don't know much about. Amy and Tails fall into the same helps because they like Sonic, and really don't have any personal self desires and drives that aren't Sonic. The Deadly Six who I hate very much but if they could make them good, they'd be a good rogues gallery addition instead of a shit one. Rough n Tumble for the same reason as Starline as well as strengthening the rogues gallery. The Chaotix keep being used surprisingly in the comic so far and none of them outside of maybe Vector really isn't all the interesting or fleshed out. Though that's the top off my head.

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While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

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40 minutes ago, Guergy said:

This thread goes fast but isn't Zavok based in the Oni?

All of them are. 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

It wouldn't be the first time people walked around legal lines to parody a character

I don't remember the exact reason Scourge is green outside of his origin, but I think the Killing Joke reference was just a convenient way to get the point across.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

. One of my favorites is the deathstroke issue with alt universe deathstroke that's just deadpool.

Actually, Deadpool was apparently a ripoff of Deathstroke from the get-go. They just decided to make him crazily aware that he's a comic character later on.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Sure, if he's competent he'll be fine ain't nothing I can do but hope he is right. I just would been more vague about it

Sure, but with this

 

This in combination with his previous statements is kind of a bad look. Its why I said I would have been more vague. In this scenario if you read his ( ian's ) statements on the matter he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do , a character got assed out, they aren't showing up. And that assed out period is what we will be left with. One of the reasons I have a bit more critical of Ian's Involvement because as an artist i'm a bit less sympathetic on this end, when working on other peoples IP...sometimes you gotta do stuff you don't think is good. Its the nature of the beast. Its your job to interpret it in a way that makes it look good and interesting.  And this statement after shadow's trip and fall , is kinda of a bad look I guess?

Now, I myself think the solution to this problem is , whoever at sonic team/sega keeps having the same bad idea needs to stop talking and stop dictating things not just for shadow, but a myriad of things. I think most of the people here have a more or less nuanced version of this desire.

But if some guy on reddit or whatever , looks at the sequence of events and comes to conclusion " Ian Flynn sounds kinda petty " I don't agree, but I can't tell him he's wrong. You don't have to twist words to get to that conclusion.  Its not good look , I would have been more vague.  Its just kind of a bad situation.

Hopefully more shadow stuff does come sooner than later, who knows.

Hmph. That's unfortunate.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Maybe he just needs a longer sega approval buffer.

Perhaps.

Maybe do the old school radar tactic of pitching things that'll get shot down so that a version of what he really wants to do seems more acceptable.

39 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

Pretty much.

I'd also like to slice the cake by pointing out that fleshing out doesn't necessarily mean more backstory, more lore(because there's a difference apparently), and maybe even more development--as Big, Silver, and Omega have famously gone to show, it's often as simple as taking the general idea of what the character is established to be and using that in more meaningful, dynamic, and creative ways.

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51 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

I think we may have uh, ran past each other. What I meant by " fleshed out " I just didn't want other characters as needlessly complicated as he is. I genuinely don't. I like shadow, not everyone needs to be that. Its why I separated the phrase " More content " from fleshed out. I may have misspoke, my bad. Its not like they can't be expanded upon. My bad

Speaking of which

@DabigRG

HELP

Someone on twitter is saying that Ian Said Andriod shadow, IE shadow being an andriod is somehow back on the table. Did he say this?

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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Speaking of which

@DabigRG

HELP

Someone on twitter is saying that Ian Said Andriod shadow, IE shadow being an andriod is somehow back on the table. Did he say this?

Duh foq?! First I'm hearing of it.

I generally listen to Bumblekast while either playing a game or rarely while doing something like writing or driving, so I not really that up to date.

That is interesting as it is concerning, though.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I think we may have uh, ran past each other. What I meant by " fleshed out " I just didn't want other characters as needlessly complicated as he is. I genuinely don't. I like shadow, not everyone needs to be that. Its why I separated the phrase " More content " from fleshed out. I may have misspoke, my bad. Its not like they can't be expanded upon. My bad

Speaking of which

@DabigRG

HELP

Someone on twitter is saying that Ian Said Andriod shadow, IE shadow being an andriod is somehow back on the table. Did he say this?

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

 

Duh foq?! First I'm hearing of it.

I generally listen to Bumblekast while either playing a game or rarely while doing something like writing or driving, so I not really that up to date.

That is interesting as it is concerning, though.

It was in the newest Bumblecast#1 at 1:01:14: "Is Shadow an android in the new IDW comics?"

 

Spoiler
  • Ian was going off through ending of ShTH where Eggman says (during the final boss fight) that his robots rescued Shadow during his fall on SA2, and he is the one true Shadow.
  • Note he recieved from SEGA apparently said Android life-version MIGHT still be on the table (?)
  • However this also on the same line of note that said there is no money on Sonic's world, leading to some interesting revision to Chaotix-related things
  • Ian working under assumption that Shadow is THE Shadow.
  • If Sega were to take things in different direction, he just has to take things accordingly.

 

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13 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

The closest character that rivals Shadow’s development is Knuckles.

And they kinda fucked him up post-2005. Ian’s gotten some stride with him, so maybe he can rerail him back to his better self from the Adventures.

Fitting, considering that was seemingly  changed in part because of how Shadow came with the sorta outlook they had started to explore with him.

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Well, Knuckles  was Sonic's primary foil before Shadow came along and he was by far the second most prominent character in the franchise after Sonic as well. 

I don't really think they had similar developments though; it's just that when they shifted focus to Shadow, they just kinda...stopped focusing on Knuckles` background. 

 

 

It really does speak volumes on how good foils they are in that they're probably the most talked about characters after Sonic himself on this site. 

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58 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

...How will he explain Shadow being infected if they go that way?

Ignore it. Even if this doesn't happen shadows character has changed so much behind the scenes that whatever Ian's plan was with moral shades of gray on the shadow end of things has effectively gotten thrown out the window. Shadow will be shuffled out of the story in the end his actions not mattering. So if anything changes, why reference it shadow didn't matter.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Ignore it. Even if this doesn't happen shadows character has changed so much behind the scenes that whatever Ian's plan was with moral shades of gray on the shadow end of things has effectively gotten thrown out the window. Shadow will be shuffled out of the story in the end his actions not mattering. So if anything changes, why reference it shadow didn't matter.

...Because machines not being infected is a big plot point? Iunno, that feels like one of those things that feels really weird from a story perspective. 

If Shadow's an android and can get infected, why can't Gemerl and Omega? This feels like the worst time to bring that plot point back again. 

On an unrelated note, it's really concidental that this happened after they brought back the Shadow androids for Tangle and Whisper.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well, Knuckles  was Sonic's primary foil before Shadow came along and he was by far the second most prominent character in the franchise after Sonic as well. 

I don't really think they had similar developments though; it's just that when they shifted focus to Shadow, they just kinda...stopped focusing on Knuckles` background. 

 

 

It really does speak volumes on how good foils they are in that they're probably the most talked about characters after Sonic himself on this site. 

I was referring to his stint as a philosophical warrior questioning the origins of his lot in life, but yes, yes they are.

19 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

...Because machines not being infected is a big plot point? Iunno, that feels like one of those things that feels really weird from a story perspective. 

If Shadow's an android and can get infected, why can't Gemerl and Omega? This feels like the worst time to bring that plot point back again. 

Wait for it.

19 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

On an unrelated note, it's really concidental that this happened after they brought back the Shadow androids for Tangle and Whisper.

Yeah, seriously. I immediately started to wonder about that and whether something got confused.

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1 hour ago, thumbs13 said:

...Because machines not being infected is a big plot point? Iunno, that feels like one of those things that feels really weird from a story perspective. 

If Shadow's an android and can get infected, why can't Gemerl and Omega? This feels like the worst time to bring that plot point back again. 

On an unrelated note, it's really concidental that this happened after they brought back the Shadow androids for Tangle and Whisper.

I agree

I just dont think it will be addressed

Ian seems...tired

Can I say one more thing? I think the more damning thing is that its? On the table, it strikes me as someone not having idea of what do with that character whilst simultaneously having no interest in some of the thing that characters audience liked. If they would have made that definite it would feel like they are going a direction. This seems like mindless bumbling

 

I had a talk with a friend about this, she brings up two points. Would that retcon shadows game out of existence, if so why bother doing that now when that game has no effect on what you are doing as a broader brand and changes to shadow like this serve no one.

The other point was a half joke, that while funny gave me a chill up my spine

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Aside from the obvious (nobody "knows" what's going on behind the scenes with this stuff but my guess is there's a lot of internal debate over details like this...for some reason), the only rationalization I can think of is that it's possible they might have meant they're fine with Flynn going with that even if they aren't planning on doing anything themselves.

To me that seems likely, given what Shadow's deal is (during or after SA2) is probably never going to be relevant again in the games, so they don't really have any reason to out of nowhere directly state in a game "oh yeah the one from Heroes on is definitely an android." And while it's a stretch I could see that logic affording adaptations some creative liberty if they so desired, unlike some other stuff (like two worlds) which is supposedly set in stone for now.

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It'd be another "attempt to appease fans by making things more confusing" retcon, like Two Worlds and the Classic Dimension.

"Didn't like that Shadow came back in Heroes, but also still want him around? He was dead the whole time, Shadow Android is actually canon. This has totally been the case the whole time, why'd you think the only confirmation that he was the original was if you spent like 9 minutes on the final boss?"

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Now that I have slept thought on the situation a bit more. I don't think anything will be done with this. I do however think this plays into a thought I have. I think someone(s) for a while have been giving a good ol' think about rebooting this 3d sonic thing. But they don't want to commit to actually doing it, so large sweeping changes to characters, gameplay styles, themes and dynamics have been made over the years to KINDA do that. They still wish to play on your nostalgia but they don't primarily care about you as a customer so sweeping changes have been made to appeal to other people. And that's why I don't think anything will be done with this. At the end of the day they have to look at a bottom line and the bottom line is it ain't working and odds are their community mangers are communicating disdain as well. Its them feeling out shit.

Now i think the solution to their woes is, hire talented people and give them time and the money to make the games and tell the stories that make this series appealing. Clearly sega does not agree that investing that is the way to go apparently. Feeling out weird needless changes that they think will just fix everything for some reason it is, I guess. Some people might say " this shows they don't know what to do with anything " , I would agree.

This is all on top of me just getting the vibe , that an actual reboot reboot at least to me is seeming more and more likely. And I would not be surprised that if they ever did those adventure remakes people are clamoring for, that will be the proverbial monkey's paw.

 

 

 

 

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More Bumblekast, this time 105:

  • Spoiler

     

    • The topic was on Morality, so Snively and briefly Knuckles were brought up as a point of how a character's switch of sides can be interesting or perhaps take away some of what them interesting. The former joining the Freedom Fighters had little done to explore his change or even question his sincerity, so he was brought into the Eggman Empire to be reestablish the interesting dynamics and explore the moral implications of doing so.
    • A unanswered question about what happened to the Troll Civilization revealed that there is a minute information that has been deemed possible to mold into a safe-to-share bit of Lost Hedgehog Tales. He will try to ask certain individuals about other stuff that might not be swampy when the time is right since it's been a while.
    • Season 2 of IDW was not originally this long, but was extended due to format of trades and a need to showcase the extended cast to makeup for their rarity in the games.
    • Season 3 of Sonic X was due to popular demand in France and is apparently only recently being released in Japan. It's also confusingly being replayed to promote the Movie.
    • Whisper & Mimic is just a basic Wolf & Octopus with no particular species being intended. He acknowledges how Sonic, Big, and Cream could be considered a particular animal, but doubts it is intentional.
    • Sees crossover with MLP FIM as an inevitability and has a few thoughts about it, but is holding onto that to avoid spoilers whenever it does come up. He would like to see interaction between both worlds to go crazy if allowed(ex.Sonic vs Rainbow has to come up at some point :lol:).
    • Doesn't think Human vs Sonic's World should be as complex. Yuji Naka was apparently the one who came up with the Human World distinction and Iuzuka just inherited the eventual need to mention it out of house. 
    • The Super Genesis Wave changed everything, including Sally's bisexuality(or pansexuality according to Kyle) that was lightly founded in Spark of Life. Any nods to what come before were simple fanservice.

     

     

Something I just remembered:

  • Spoiler

    To him, there are two or three Central Cities, with the one in Battle being in the Sonic's World.

     

 

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16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The Super Genesis Wave changed everything, including Sally's bisexuality(or pansexuality according to Kyle) that was lightly founded in Spark of Life. Any nods to what come before were simple fanservice.

This confuses me a little. Is he saying Sally was bisexual in the old continuity?

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3 minutes ago, Big Panda said:

This confuses me a little. Is he saying Sally was bisexual in the old continuity?

No, he's saying she was in New252. Basically acknowledging that she might've had some liking of Sonic early on as in SatAM/Archie, but nothing came of it.

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2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

No, he's saying she was in New252. Basically acknowledging that she might've had some liking of Sonic early on as in SatAM/Archie, but nothing came of it.

The way you worded it was confusing. Almost made it sound as if she was bi in old canon and full lesbian in new canon.

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