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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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39 minutes ago, lulzers said:

This. A Satanic archetype would be more like a slimy, manipulative figure that prefers to attack his foes on a psychological level. Not to mention he would be an extensive magic user to contrast to Eggman's use of robots.

So Mephiles basically.

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2 hours ago, lulzers said:

But as a FAR more blatant analogue and a much more inspired design.

I thought it was blatant before

He was an alt color pallet of the hedgehog that already looks demonic that gets more demonic looking as time goes on. That has lizard pupils. Trying to trick people into doing his dirty work for him and trying to turn people to his side with promises of a better future. The only way it could get more on the nose is if he had an apple, and yelled at shadow "hey half demon trope , be evil!" And yelled at silver "hey Adam, look at this sick apple" or at sonic " die chosen one"

Now he could have had a more inspired design. But I get the feeling that demonic archetype is kinda ...useless now? Who's he gonna psychologically manipulate I mean?

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8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Now he could have had a more inspired design. But I get the feeling that demonic archetype is kinda ...useless now? Who's he gonna psychologically manipulate I mean?

Well, everyone. They say misery loves company and so does the Devil.

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6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Well, everyone. They say misery loves company and so does the Devil.

I mean like i dunno

I dont feel like anyone right now in even in comic form is emotionally deep enough for that to be interesting? I an mentioned this before in a bumble cast but everyone is sonic's core cast are generally decent folk.

Like unless you mean strait up illusions and even then, they just did that guy.

Not lot of emotions to manipulate I'm saying

 

Edit: illusions could work, someone else found the phantom ruby? It would require intimate knowledge of the protagonists though. Would need to be a mastermind

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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I mean like i dunno

I dont feel like anyone right now in even in comic form is emotionally deep enough for that to be interesting? I an mentioned this before in a bumble cast but everyone is sonic's core cast are generally decent folk.

Like unless you mean strait up illusions and even then, they just did that guy.

Not lot of emotions to manipulate I'm saying

 

Edit: illusions could work, someone else found the phantom ruby? It would require intimate knowledge of the protagonists though. Would need to be a mastermind

Eh, most Sonic characters tend to have some sort of vice or desire that could potentially preyed upon.  Though I guess in Charmy and maybe Cream's case, it could just be something sweet.

It really does depend on what angle you wanna come from with a story like that. So unless it's someone like Shadow or Knuckles(well, sometimes anyway), it may have to be a humorous take.

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8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, most Sonic characters tend to have some sort of vice or desire that could potentially preyed upon.  Though I guess in Charmy and maybe Cream's case, it could just be something sweet.

It really does depend on what angle you wanna come from with a story like that. So unless it's someone like Shadow or Knuckles(well, sometimes anyway), it may have to be a humorous take.

For Amy, it would most likely be her love for Sonic. For Sonic himself, it would probably be his ego. (Which I'm pretty sure the Devil guy would be all too happy to exploit)

Shadow would be a particularly dark example. The demon could disguise himself as Maria Robotnik via shapeshifting and use her form to toy with his emotions.

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Oh yeah, forgot I listened to the previous Bumblekast today:

  • There won't be a Shadow centric story anytime soon since he likely wouldn't be able to do what he'd like to under the guidelines.
  • Maw's power was essentially another dimension within his gaping jaw--it's a broken ability, but in the hands, er, mouth of someone who's more understated. They might've explored how that works and whether it's possible to escape one day, but there were no plans of the sort at the time.
  • The infected citizen managed to get into the shelter because Gemerl hadn't started scanning just yet. In the event he had though, there were a lot of people to scan and he was distracted by Vector and Espio in the brief window before he turned. 

And as a bonus, here's some stuff from a different episode or two I just remembered:

  • Answering one of my questions, he has no clue what Marine's power is. He assumes it could be water based, but it's simply improbable to tell given the visual quality.
  • He would love to explore Blaze's world and her kingdom/empire, noting how she's apparently an imperial princess. This includes whether there are other pirates out there and how dicey the politics can be according to Team Sonic Racing.
6 minutes ago, lulzers said:

For Amy, it would most likely be her love for Sonic. For Sonic himself, it would probably be his ego. (Which I'm pretty sure the Devil guy would be all too happy to exploit)

Shadow would be a particularly dark example. The demon could disguise himself as Maria Robotnik via shapeshifting and use her form to toy with his emotions.

Honestly, a third of the cast have a bit of an ego.

Maria seems kinda obvious, but given the angel or, heh, Ave Maria parallels, it could be an interesting if messed up twist on how she's been characterized.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, forgot I listened to the previous Bumblekast today:

  • There won't be a Shadow centric story anytime soon since he likely wouldn't be able to do what he'd like to under the guidelines.

Thank goodness. Let's flesh out those who are starved than those who have an ocean worth of history.

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5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, most Sonic characters tend to have some sort of vice or desire that could potentially preyed upon.  Though I guess in Charmy and maybe Cream's case, it could just be something sweet.

It really does depend on what angle you wanna come from with a story like that. So unless it's someone like Shadow or Knuckles(well, sometimes anyway), it may have to be a humorous take.

I agree with this sentiment. How people are characterized nowadays , its just I dunno if it would be that interesting. I think I mentioned before, but I would genuinely love a story when knuckles is kinda upset the last thing his people left him is a monument to sonic and there are just a bunch of people out there doing cool stuff with cool powers. And he just has to guard an emerald.

I don't like a lot of preboot stuff. But Enerjak knuckles was a good idea and if that was a concept that could still be accessed I could totally get behind knuckles...feeling a way and being bad in that respect. Being manipulated into being the bad man, not just because of gullibility, he just feels kinda left out. He wants to become super like of his other friends and ends up becoming a bit of a bad guy. 

There's a bunch of stuff you can explore. But with all that said, knuckles nowadays is just kind of a doof. And even with Ian I don't think they would allow him to go far enough to matter. Even in this story that's supposed to test sonic, at the end I don't think his morality will be questioned in a serious way. Ian Flynn said it will be ambiguous in the end something will happen that will affirm his view on the world and sonic will be left back where he started. And I feel like for these stories to have weight even if they end up in the same place morally they have end up a different character then how they started and I just don't know if they can do that.

 But maybe i'm wrong.

5 hours ago, lulzers said:

For Amy, it would most likely be her love for Sonic. For Sonic himself, it would probably be his ego. (Which I'm pretty sure the Devil guy would be all too happy to exploit)

It would be really neat if that happened and he spawned a super egotistical version of sonic from an alternate reality that seemed...really familiar. Trying to show him who he really is and who he might of been if he had one bad day. This is not a reference to anything whatsoever.

Quote

Shadow would be a particularly dark example. The demon could disguise himself as Maria Robotnik via shapeshifting and use her form to toy with his emotions.

That's neat. Because I feel like a lot of people think he would just go " Oh maria you are back " I feel like maria being dead is like the sky  to shadow. Its a thing he knows is real. And he would immediately get pissed, and go into a rage into someone thinking he can be manipulated in such a way. I feel like exploiting shadow with maria would lean more into what he thinks of himself. I can totally see him rage attacking the guy even beating him up . but the guy isn't in fear, he's laughing because that's what he wanted. He just says " your just like those black arms, you are monster meant to destroy " and that's what gets him. Maybe you could go even farther and imply shadow is going through some black arms esque transformation in this rage. At the end of it shadow questions himself and if anyone is safe around him and leaves and hides himself. And the bad guy will effectively gotten shadow to do something no one else has , give up.

 

As with this and with any other take on that scenario I think that requires shadow to like have depth and to be different at the end of the scenario and how sega is doing stuff now. Is that even a thing you can do , is that story worth telling. Speaking of which

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, forgot I listened to the previous Bumblekast today:

  • There won't be a Shadow centric story anytime soon since he likely wouldn't be able to do what he'd like to under the guidelines.

Thing 1) Should he be saying this? Didn't he just get in trouble talking about his issues writing things particularly with shadow and things being spread of questionable truthfulness. I feel like outright saying that would lead to more of that same kind of trouble. I think just saying " it will happen when it happens " kind of would keep him out of that potential trouble but its his buissness

Thing 2) I mentioned this before but I dunno , I feel like just writing a story and getting a handle of what this character is now. Because guidelines could ...just never change. Not only that new kids could like this new version of shadow, then what? Its not the worst version of that scenario, Imagine writing tony start then the editor decides he's dead. But even in that scenario they just kept it moving and made him a techno force ghost. I feel like keeping it moving and trying to figure out what you can do would be the best scenario here. Because eventually he gonna have to, and nothing could change. But I dunno, maybe if I took a look at the those guidelines its so awful I would just agree, they mandate shadow says slurs now or something.

 

Quote
  • Maw's power was essentially another dimension within his gaping jaw--it's a broken ability, but in the hands, er, mouth of someone who's more understated. They might've explored how that works and whether it's possible to escape one day, but there were no plans of the sort at the time.

he's kirby?

Quote
  • The infected citizen managed to get into the shelter because Gemerl hadn't started scanning just yet. In the event he had though, there were a lot of people to scan and he was distracted by Vector and Espio in the brief window before he turned. 

huh, well ok. They should make friends with more robots in future, gemerl needs the help

Quote

And as a bonus, here's some stuff from a different episode or two I just remembered:

  • Answering one of my questions, he has no clue what Marine's power is. He assumes it could be water based, but it's simply improbable to tell given the visual quality.

I thought she was just kinda smart. Earth 2 tails

Quote
  • He would love to explore Blaze's world and her kingdom/empire, noting how she's apparently an imperial princess. This includes whether there are other pirates out there and how dicey the politics can be according to Team Sonic Racing.

Sick

 

3 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Thank goodness. Let's flesh out those who are starved than those who have an ocean worth of history.

I may be a little biased but I feel like that's a weird statement? A lot of these characters been MIA for a hot minute so everyone's kinda starved. Some more than others, but nobody's eating.

 

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7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Honestly, a third of the cast have a bit of an ego.

Maria seems kinda obvious, but given the angel or, heh, Ave Maria parallels, it could be an interesting if messed up twist on how she's been characterized.

Ironically, Satan is often described as a fallen angel so it fits. Speaking of vices, I imagine the Devil guy would have reality warping powers. Which gives him the ability to grant his clients' wishes. (Such as giving Vector an insane amount of money)

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That's neat. Because I feel like a lot of people think he would just go " Oh maria you are back " I feel like maria being dead is like the sky  to shadow. Its a thing he knows is real. And he would immediately get pissed, and go into a rage into someone thinking he can be manipulated in such a way. I feel like exploiting shadow with maria would lean more into what he thinks of himself. I can totally see him rage attacking the guy even beating him up . but the guy isn't in fear, he's laughing because that's what he wanted. He just says " your just like those black arms, you are monster meant to destroy " and that's what gets him. Maybe you could go even farther and imply shadow is going through some black arms esque transformation in this rage. At the end of it shadow questions himself and if anyone is safe around him and leaves and hides himself. And the bad guy will effectively gotten shadow to do something no one else has , give up.

Alternatively, Shadow would try to attack the demon, only for said demon to wipe the floor with him.

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4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I may be a little biased but I feel like that's a weird statement? A lot of these characters been MIA for a hot minute so everyone's kinda starved. Some more than others, but nobody's eating.

I mean in general Shadow has a huge backstory that's been explored in the games and comics before. More than literally any other character. Instead of building on something that's already got plenty on its plate as is, why not just give this to characters that don't have that same luxury. For instance think of a character in your mind that you think is lacking or bland...that character should be getting the special treatment so they can be better characters. Kinda like how Silver sucked til the comics did something with him. Who needs more to their story to be better? That's what I think should be focused on. I liked how Tangle and Whisper was as they needed a book like that to help establish themselves. Sure they're new characters, but there's plenty of old ones who even after years of games still only have the equivalent of what Tangle and Whisper started with before their book. I think we should be creating more characters who can stand on their own, rather than add onto characters who already can do that and have so.

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1 hour ago, lulzers said:

 

Alternatively, Shadow would try to attack the demon, only for said demon to wipe the floor with him.

Sure.If that's how you wish to imagine it. I think " shadow gets beat up " is kinda one note for this hypothetical narrative? Like if this was a situation where shadow thought he was the coolest dude in the world then he lost and gained perspective I would be WAY into that. It would make shadow try harder and think, he would encountered a being beyond his comprehension and that messes with him. I would really enjoy villains like that. Tired villains for different characters. That's kinda what eclipse was among other things.

However, this is physiological manipulation , I think the more interesting scenario is making shadow feel worthless. And you don't do that by beating him up, that just makes him stronger. He is fueled by attempted murder, quite literally and figuratively. If you sent shadow to hell he would doctor doom that shit and climb out. Making him question himself and making give up on himself is a far more interesting angle.  At least how I imagine it, having shadow win the fight, but loose mentally is fascinating. He's a character who's entire everything more so than knuckles is built on fighting. He's a living weapon. You beat him up , he gets stronger he beats you up story over. You get him to question whether he's worth keeping around are people safe around him. You get to the core of his character, or one of them pragmatism. he likes to cut to the core of issues and solve them. If you make the issue his existence, you can effectively theoretically speaking get him to give up. And for shadow, all you have to do is show him a mirror. So shadow would have beaten up the guy but what does that mean anymore. You will have effectively stripped him of a lot of his identity. This would be particularly effective against current friendly shadow.

And if shadow was just stronger than this guy, that would show how powerful this character is. Death, Doctor eggman, the previous satan, his space dad, the government , heck even sonic couldn't stop him. But this new character with knowledge and intent does. Renders him useless , that's how you get a villain over. You turn the badass guy on the squad into a puddle of tears and insecurities via the power of your words. Its like when Nick Fury ( the old one ) got turned into the watcher and whsipered into thor's ear and he couldn't hold moljnir anymore because he was unworthy. Shit like that , i love shit lie that.

Yes I just wrote a paragraph and some change about how to effectively mentally abuse my favorite character, don't think about it

7 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I mean in general Shadow has a huge backstory that's been explored in the games and comics before. More than literally any other character. Instead of building on something that's already got plenty on its plate as is, why not just give this to characters that don't have that same luxury. For instance think of a character in your mind that you think is lacking or bland...that character should be getting the special treatment so they can be better characters. Kinda like how Silver sucked til the comics did something with him. Who needs more to their story to be better? That's what I think should be focused on. I liked how Tangle and Whisper was as they needed a book like that to help establish themselves. Sure they're new characters, but there's plenty of old ones who even after years of games still only have the equivalent of what Tangle and Whisper started with before their book. I think we should be creating more characters who can stand on their own, rather than add onto characters who already can do that and have so.

I mean i get you, we needed blazes's entire world explored like over a decade ago. I would have liked more on this new world before the zombies happen. I get your angle, I get your vibe.

On the other hand. The last time shadow's anything was explored was in 2006. That is 14 years ago. if that was a person they would be in highschool. Even the comics are getting up there in age. The idea that he's just getting a steady stream of meaningful content , the idea that any character is getting a steady stream of meaningful content seems...disingenuous to me. This doesn't even consider say someone who's first non game experience with sonic are these books or someone young enough to not have previously experienced either. I get it more things in sonic should be explored. But the idea that other's have had this stream of meaningful content is flawed to say the least. Though I get the feeling both of us would be happier if game representation was better.

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8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I mean i get you, we needed blazes's entire world explored like over a decade ago. I would have liked more on this new world before the zombies happen. I get your angle, I get your vibe.

On the other hand. The last time shadow's anything was explored was in 2006. That is 14 years ago. if that was a person they would be in highschool. Even the comics are getting up there in age. The idea that he's just getting a steady stream of meaningful content , the idea that any character is getting a steady stream of meaningful content seems...disingenuous to me. This doesn't even consider say someone who's first non game experience with sonic are these books or someone young enough to not have previously experienced either. I get it more things in sonic should be explored. But the idea that other's have had this stream of meaningful content is flawed to say the least. Though I get the feeling both of us would be happier if game representation was better.

I would agree. We really don't know much about her world at all despite having a game centered in it. She makes sense to me.

Which even despite that, you can write a crap ton of who and what Shadow is from just what he has had. You can and people have written essays about him.Try doing the same with like Cream the Rabbit or her mother, any of the Chaotix, Mighty and Ray, Rouge,  heck even Big (Meme status has basically resurrected his character from the dead, might as well do something wild with him). Shadow is vastly fleshed out compared to most and some would argue all of the other characters. Sure the last time he was seriously explored in 2006 (Though he did have a side dlc campaign recently), he is still undeniably more fleshed out and stronger as a character than most of the others. I know more about him in his 5 years of game focus, than I do about characters who have appeared over nearly 2 decades. Knuckles is the only one who even can try to claim to be close to him, and I'd say he pales. 

I'm not saying I don't want him around. He can appear in the main book plenty more. I just think we need to make characters who are bland or hated even, more likable. Heck I make it very clear I despise the Deadly Six, and if they can make me like them in a spin off book. Go for it. I would probably groan and whine because of my bias against them, but if it means they can be actual characters for once...sure go for it. 

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I can live without Shadow story (I'll be SAD, but I'll live), just let him do something right for once.

So far he's outdone by children. At least Charmy scarified himself in noble way, while Cream talked down Gemerl. And they both directly saved few people.

 

....now that I think of it, Shadow didn't even defeated single enemy. He skipped all badnik bashing and obviously punching Zombots does nothing. And unlike Omega or Gemerl, he didn't directly protected anyone.

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9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I agree with this sentiment. How people are characterized nowadays , its just I dunno if it would be that interesting. I think I mentioned before, but I would genuinely love a story when knuckles is kinda upset the last thing his people left him is a monument to sonic and there are just a bunch of people out there doing cool stuff with cool powers. And he just has to guard an emerald.

I don't like a lot of preboot stuff. But Enerjak knuckles was a good idea and if that was a concept that could still be accessed I could totally get behind knuckles...feeling a way and being bad in that respect. Being manipulated into being the bad man, not just because of gullibility, he just feels kinda left out. He wants to become super like of his other friends and ends up becoming a bit of a bad guy. 

There's a bunch of stuff you can explore. But with all that said, knuckles nowadays is just kind of a doof. And even with Ian I don't think they would allow him to go far enough to matter. Even in this story that's supposed to test sonic, at the end I don't think his morality will be questioned in a serious way. Ian Flynn said it will be ambiguous in the end something will happen that will affirm his view on the world and sonic will be left back where he started. And I feel like for these stories to have weight even if they end up in the same place morally they have end up a different character then how they started and I just don't know if they can do that.

 But maybe i'm wrong.

Yeah, that can't be a comfortable thought. No wonder he mostly hangs on Altar Isle. 

Um, that's a way of looking at it. 

Quote

It would be really neat if that happened and he spawned a super egotistical version of sonic from an alternate reality that seemed...really familiar. Trying to show him who he really is and who he might of been if he had one bad day. This is not a reference to anything whatsoever.

It is funny he was totally not green and his girlfriend was red with a new found appreciation for black. 

Quote

As with this and with any other take on that scenario I think that requires shadow to like have depth and to be different at the end of the scenario and how sega is doing stuff now. Is that even a thing you can do , is that story worth telling. Speaking of which

Thing 1) Should he be saying this? Didn't he just get in trouble talking about his issues writing things particularly with shadow and things being spread of questionable truthfulness. I feel like outright saying that would lead to more of that same kind of trouble. I think just saying " it will happen when it happens " kind of would keep him out of that potential trouble but its his buissness

Thing 2) I mentioned this before but I dunno , I feel like just writing a story and getting a handle of what this character is now. Because guidelines could ...just never change. Not only that new kids could like this new version of shadow, then what? Its not the worst version of that scenario, Imagine writing tony start then the editor decides he's dead. But even in that scenario they just kept it moving and made him a techno force ghost. I feel like keeping it moving and trying to figure out what you can do would be the best scenario here. Because eventually he gonna have to, and nothing could change. But I dunno, maybe if I took a look at the those guidelines its so awful I would just agree, they mandate shadow says slurs now or something.

1. I think it's different in the sense that it's coming from him directly and he had time to think through his answer compared to saying to someone at a con and they paraphrase it online. 

2. I don't think his next couple of stories includes Shadow anyway, so it might just be more of necessity to plan for other stuff in the meantime. Plus given things like Team Dark apparently not being a team anymore, it could also be a lack of a clear comfortable framework to start with at the moment. 

Quote

he's kirby?

Essentially my thought. 😂

Quote

 

I thought she was just kinda smart. Earth 2 tails

She pretty much is, but we were referring to the energy blast she used to stun Dr. Nega.

F..

Quote

Sick

 

I may be a little biased but I feel like that's a weird statement? A lot of these characters been MIA for a hot minute so everyone's kinda starved. Some more than others, but nobody's eating.

 

Hhj

4 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I mean in general Shadow has a huge backstory that's been explored in the games and comics before. More than literally any other character. Instead of building on something that's already got plenty on its plate as is, why not just give this to characters that don't have that same luxury. For instance think of a character in your mind that you think is lacking or bland...that character should be getting the special treatment so they can be better characters. Kinda like how Silver sucked til the comics did something with him. Who needs more to their story to be better? That's what I think should be focused on. I liked how Tangle and Whisper was as they needed a book like that to help establish themselves. Sure they're new characters, but there's plenty of old ones who even after years of games still only have the equivalent of what Tangle and Whisper started with before their book. I think we should be creating more characters who can stand on their own, rather than add onto characters who already can do that and have so.

I think it's safe to say that we generally have a similar thought on this. 

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3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

It is funny he was totally not green and his girlfriend was red with a new found appreciation for black. 

It wouldn't be the first time people walked around legal lines to parody a character. One of my favorites is the deathstroke issue with alt universe deathstroke that's just deadpool.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

1. I think it's different in the sense that it's coming from him directly and he had time to think through his answer compared to saying to someone at a con and they paraphrase it online. 

Sure, if he's competent he'll be fine ain't nothing I can do but hope he is right. I just would been more vague about it

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

2. I don't think his next couple of stories includes Shadow anyway, so it might just be more of necessity to plan for other stuff in the meantime. Plus given things like Team Dark apparently not being a team anymore, it could also be a lack of a clear comfortable framework to start with at the moment. 

Sure, but with this

7 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I can live without Shadow story (I'll be SAD, but I'll live), just let him do something right for once.

So far he's outdone by children. At least Charmy scarified himself in noble way, while Cream talked down Gemerl. And they both directly saved few people.

 

....now that I think of it, Shadow didn't even defeated single enemy. He skipped all badnik bashing and obviously punching Zombots does nothing. And unlike Omega or Gemerl, he didn't directly protected anyone.

 

This in combination with his previous statements is kind of a bad look. Its why I said I would have been more vague. In this scenario if you read his ( ian's ) statements on the matter he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do , a character got assed out, they aren't showing up. And that assed out period is what we will be left with. One of the reasons I have a bit more critical of Ian's Involvement because as an artist i'm a bit less sympathetic on this end, when working on other peoples IP...sometimes you gotta do stuff you don't think is good. Its the nature of the beast. Its your job to interpret it in a way that makes it look good and interesting.  And this statement after shadow's trip and fall , is kinda of a bad look I guess?

Now, I myself think the solution to this problem is , whoever at sonic team/sega keeps having the same bad idea needs to stop talking and stop dictating things not just for shadow, but a myriad of things. I think most of the people here have a more or less nuanced version of this desire.

But if some guy on reddit or whatever , looks at the sequence of events and comes to conclusion " Ian Flynn sounds kinda petty " I don't agree, but I can't tell him he's wrong. You don't have to twist words to get to that conclusion.  Its not good look , I would have been more vague.  Its just kind of a bad situation.

Hopefully more shadow stuff does come sooner than later, who knows. Maybe he just needs a longer sega approval buffer.

 

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Which even despite that, you can write a crap ton of who and what Shadow is from just what he has had. You can and people have written essays about him.Try doing the same with like Cream the Rabbit or her mother, any of the Chaotix, Mighty and Ray, Rouge,  heck even Big (Meme status has basically resurrected his character from the dead, might as well do something wild with him). Shadow is vastly fleshed out compared to most and some would argue all of the other characters. Sure the last time he was seriously explored in 2006 (Though he did have a side dlc campaign recently), he is still undeniably more fleshed out and stronger as a character than most of the others. I know more about him in his 5 years of game focus, than I do about characters who have appeared over nearly 2 decades. Knuckles is the only one who even can try to claim to be close to him, and I'd say he pales. 

I would say again, those games came out over a decade ago. But even more so than that, to be blunt some characters in sonic just aren't meant to be that complicated. If you want more content for more other folks, that's a fine argument to make. Advocate for the characters you enjoy, I sure as hell do. But arguing shadow has been fleshed out seems pointless because he was built to be that way. A lot of the characters from that era are. There are some characters are just built for that. Like I don't think they need fleshing out. But if you want to see weird stories with your characters where they do weird stuff then , yeah sure that's your prerogative.

I just don't think that you should hold everyone to a shadow standard, if everyone was like that. The book would be come over burdered with lore and kinda boring like its predecessor. If you want more content, cool, I just don't think everyone needs to be fleshed out.

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm not saying I don't want him around. He can appear in the main book plenty more. I just think we need to make characters who are bland or hated even, more likable. Heck I make it very clear I despise the Deadly Six, and if they can make me like them in a spin off book. Go for it. I would probably groan and whine because of my bias against them, but if it means they can be actual characters for once...sure go for it. 

What characters do you think need tuning up

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46 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I would say again, those games came out over a decade ago. But even more so than that, to be blunt some characters in sonic just aren't meant to be that complicated. If you want more content for more other folks, that's a fine argument to make. Advocate for the characters you enjoy, I sure as hell do. But arguing shadow has been fleshed out seems pointless because he was built to be that way. A lot of the characters from that era are. There are some characters are just built for that. Like I don't think they need fleshing out. But if you want to see weird stories with your characters where they do weird stuff then , yeah sure that's your prerogative.

I just don't think that you should hold everyone to a shadow standard, if everyone was like that. The book would be come over burdered with lore and kinda boring like its predecessor. If you want more content, cool, I just don't think everyone needs to be fleshed out.

What characters do you think need tuning up

I think that's a bit of a cop out there. We should be trying to make more characters fleshed out. I'm not saying everyone has to have as much of a backstory as Shadow, but so many characters either are bland, have barely anything worth of note about them, or just plain suck. They need more to them. Shadow doesn't need any solo stories because he's strong enough as is. If we don't help those who need it, we just end up with a bunch of half baked characters and a few good ones.

As I said above I don't think everyone needs to have that much information, but I don't think having only a few characters in a comic series really have anything worth of depth is a good idea either. We should aim to give more to those in need, not build on a foundation that is already strong as is.

Blaze definitely who we barely know jack shit about her world and her princess title barely means anything, so we should do something about that for instance. Rouge is someone who we don't know much about but has had all the potential ideas to flesh out beyond sometimes steals shit and vaguely may do an agent thing once in a while. Starline obviously with being a new character/villain we don't know much about. Amy and Tails fall into the same helps because they like Sonic, and really don't have any personal self desires and drives that aren't Sonic. The Deadly Six who I hate very much but if they could make them good, they'd be a good rogues gallery addition instead of a shit one. Rough n Tumble for the same reason as Starline as well as strengthening the rogues gallery. The Chaotix keep being used surprisingly in the comic so far and none of them outside of maybe Vector really isn't all the interesting or fleshed out. Though that's the top off my head.

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While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

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40 minutes ago, Guergy said:

This thread goes fast but isn't Zavok based in the Oni?

All of them are. 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

It wouldn't be the first time people walked around legal lines to parody a character

I don't remember the exact reason Scourge is green outside of his origin, but I think the Killing Joke reference was just a convenient way to get the point across.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

. One of my favorites is the deathstroke issue with alt universe deathstroke that's just deadpool.

Actually, Deadpool was apparently a ripoff of Deathstroke from the get-go. They just decided to make him crazily aware that he's a comic character later on.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Sure, if he's competent he'll be fine ain't nothing I can do but hope he is right. I just would been more vague about it

Sure, but with this

 

This in combination with his previous statements is kind of a bad look. Its why I said I would have been more vague. In this scenario if you read his ( ian's ) statements on the matter he wasn't able to do what he wanted to do , a character got assed out, they aren't showing up. And that assed out period is what we will be left with. One of the reasons I have a bit more critical of Ian's Involvement because as an artist i'm a bit less sympathetic on this end, when working on other peoples IP...sometimes you gotta do stuff you don't think is good. Its the nature of the beast. Its your job to interpret it in a way that makes it look good and interesting.  And this statement after shadow's trip and fall , is kinda of a bad look I guess?

Now, I myself think the solution to this problem is , whoever at sonic team/sega keeps having the same bad idea needs to stop talking and stop dictating things not just for shadow, but a myriad of things. I think most of the people here have a more or less nuanced version of this desire.

But if some guy on reddit or whatever , looks at the sequence of events and comes to conclusion " Ian Flynn sounds kinda petty " I don't agree, but I can't tell him he's wrong. You don't have to twist words to get to that conclusion.  Its not good look , I would have been more vague.  Its just kind of a bad situation.

Hopefully more shadow stuff does come sooner than later, who knows.

Hmph. That's unfortunate.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Maybe he just needs a longer sega approval buffer.

Perhaps.

Maybe do the old school radar tactic of pitching things that'll get shot down so that a version of what he really wants to do seems more acceptable.

39 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

Pretty much.

I'd also like to slice the cake by pointing out that fleshing out doesn't necessarily mean more backstory, more lore(because there's a difference apparently), and maybe even more development--as Big, Silver, and Omega have famously gone to show, it's often as simple as taking the general idea of what the character is established to be and using that in more meaningful, dynamic, and creative ways.

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51 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

While Shadow is undoubtedly designed to be a fleshed out and depthful character, I don't think he really needs any more focus than he already has. Like said, we know more about him than literally any character, bar none. I don't think it's asking too much for the series to dedicate some time to the rest of the supporting cast. Surely not to the extent of Shadow, but something is better than nothing. 

Saying "oh they're designed to be simple so they don't need to be fleshed out" is a huge cop out, and it doesn't even bother to try. Even supposed main characters like Tails, Amy, and Knuckles aren't really fleshed out that much outside of their relationship to Sonic, the main character.

It feels extremely limiting for a narrative to just have one majorly fleshed out character and the rest of them are just...two-dimensional at best.

I think we may have uh, ran past each other. What I meant by " fleshed out " I just didn't want other characters as needlessly complicated as he is. I genuinely don't. I like shadow, not everyone needs to be that. Its why I separated the phrase " More content " from fleshed out. I may have misspoke, my bad. Its not like they can't be expanded upon. My bad

Speaking of which

@DabigRG

HELP

Someone on twitter is saying that Ian Said Andriod shadow, IE shadow being an andriod is somehow back on the table. Did he say this?

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