Jump to content
Dejimon11

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Maybe, but hardly because humans were involved. Shadow, rest of the Team Dark and Eclipse, they made the highpoints. Humans were window dressing that smoothed out the narrative, otherwise Shadow would had to steal rocket from Eggman or something (...that sounds kinda sweet).

As much as I hate loosing any narrative element, since everything has potential uses, humans were very MINOR part of Flynn's work on Archie. With exception fo Hope and Snively (and Eggman of course, maaaybe Iron Queen), I can't think of single human or scene with humans (in Archie comics) that I would miss / couldn't remake to work without them.

I don't want to be "your subjective opinion is wrong" sort of guy, but I feel we cry over humans much more than they deserve.

Abraham Tower, Madonna Garnet, and Prof. Pickle.

Also, at least two had knowledge over the Gaia Temples that the entire plot centered on. Humans in Archie were only “minor” in the sense that the cast is mostly dominated by anthros by an overwhelming  margin, not so much the narrative department.

Also, if you can remake a scene without humans, you can remake it without anthros—narratively speaking, that’s not really a deciding factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Abraham Tower, Madonna Garnet, and Prof. Pickle.

Also, at least two had knowledge over the Gaia Temples that the entire plot centered on. Humans in Archie were only “minor” in the sense that the cast is mostly dominated by anthros by an overwhelming  margin, not so much the narrative department.

Also, if you can remake a scene without humans, you can remake it without anthros—narratively speaking, that’s not really a deciding factor.

I think two out of three of those kinda prove his point. modonna and tower aren't really memorable or interesting or important or necessary. And Modonna in particular, in how and when she was introduced and the reaction to it proves a very blunt point, if GUN isn't in service of team dark existing no really cares and for most people don't serve a narrative purpose worth investigating. And she didn't show up long.  Tower wasn't particularly that important in retrospect either, because don't even need to do that could they be replaced with anthros.... they didn't really need to be there. As I think @MetalSkulkBane suggests that entire story could have been just them stealing a ship going on the black arms ship and beating up aliens and all of shadows insecurities and what not play out the same. They didn't even need to be around.

Prof pickle works because it played with themes of the game, and as well in the comic. The whole thing besides the werehog thing is sonic going around the world and visiting places and people in the human world. Now all of these could have been anthros and I think that would be more visually interesting and I would prefer it. I would genuinely like to see anthros themed around different cultures the only one who kinda has that is knuckles and that's through backstory and arcetecture with angel island a lot of the past echidnas clearly being based on like old central american civilizations like the mayans. But even then knuckles himself is kind of a black slate , and that's the intention. They want these characters to be identifiable to everyone. So while I would like a sonic game with different takes on real world cultures with anthros. I get why proff pickle and the humans in that game exist in that game and in the comics. He's important to the visual themes of that story if not that important to the narrative itself.

GUN doesn't have that luxury , and its why they seem very irrelevant. GUN is a faceless nameless organization that only served to be a government based badguy in comparison to eggman's environmentalist-ruination and dictatorial based bad guy. They served their narrative purpose in sa2 being a part of shadow's backstory and a government based badguy and have actually never had any narrative importance since and that has translated into the comics. Even though flynn has tried to give a crap about them, even he couldn't really make them that narrative important. This is even before sega stepped in the first time. Everything with hope could have just been done with him having a very vivid memory of maria and even outside of hope GUN itself didn't really need to exist. The only purpose it served pre-reboot was why team dark wasn't around for one arc. And post reboot, it served none. And now they are just gone and I feel like given the current problems with shadow and team dark , people are worried about a lot of other things that aren't GUN.

Humans in sonic have never really been that important with very few exceptions and there's a reason for that. They generally serve two narrative purposes

To be an allegory for you to hang out with the sonic character in the story

To serve a very particular thematic purpose for a stint

Outside of that, just kinda window dressing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I think two out of three of those kinda prove his point. modonna and tower aren't really memorable or interesting or important or necessary. And Modonna in particular, in how and when she was introduced and the reaction to it proves a very blunt point, if GUN isn't in service of team dark existing no really cares and for most people don't serve a narrative purpose worth investigating. And she didn't show up long.  Tower wasn't particularly that important in retrospect either, because don't even need to do that could they be replaced with anthros.... they didn't really need to be there.

His point was that Humans are minor, not unnecessary—that statement could very easily be said for the anthro cast that make up the majority for much of the same reasons.

My point regarding that is because the number of humans that do make a presence—Madonna, Tower, and Pickle—are only minor because there’s several times more anthro characters that do the same, because the number of named humans barely even reaches the double digits.

Just because you can replace them with anthros doesn’t mean they don’t need to be there—that’s not how storytelling works, and you could just as easily say the opposite and use that to make more humans, in which that doesn’t mean anthros are unnecessary either. If you can turn those humans into anthros...that just means you turned them into anthros—they’d still have the same minor appearance regardless. 

Lanolin the Sheep, for example, isn’t important just because she’s an anthro. She’s still a background in a even lesser role than the three humans I listed.

And by virtue of Madonna and Tower playing narrative roles and moving the plot along, they by all rights and purposes are important and necessary in the context of their appearance—one is the Commander in Chief of a military force and the head boss of Team Dark (which by association makes him very important since he’s giving them their orders), the other is an internal affairs officer keeping track of possible sabotage from a wildcard in their ranks that could destroy them from within if they’re not careful. Those are not roles to brush off and ignore as unimportant, even if you yourself aren’t captivated by that, as being memorable or interesting is subjective. They’ve barely gotten to do much because Archie ended by the time Ian could even do more with them, but he was definitely setting something up given Madonna’s interrogation of Snively by Tower’s orders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pickle could been easily replaced with Relic if she wasn't busy. Heck, Uncle Chuck could just visit library and fins Gaia Manuscripts. I guess some people like Pickle, but I never got why his cucumber sandwiches are so funny.

Madonna and Amanda Tower exist, but leave no impact.  Station Square could been populated by Mobians and saved by new FF side-group and story wouldn't be poorer in anyway. Same goes for any human key-guardian.

So after reading @Conquering Storm’s Servant and @Shadowlax posts I'm not even sure if we disagree or not.

My point is that lack if humans in IDW might be annoyance, but not problem that needs instant fixing. If comics goes for 100 issues without GUN or Pickle, I'll  be just fine. Maybe Shadow won't be able to talk about Maria again, but
1) "Modern" Shadow seems unable of emotions like that anyway
2) but if he can, I'm more than happy to see Shadow do something new other than brood about his past.


With that said, I agree that humans are mostlu COULD be removed. To me in most of Sonic continuities they have only 2 significant roles
1) As background for Eggman and expansion for his family (SA2, thus link to Shadow, Hope, Snively and thus Iron Queen). But Eggman works just fine without those elements. Some stories can't be told (sucks), but plenty other await.
2) As background for Shadow (GUN), cause SA2 was good, but already a strangely dark story and replacing human soldiers with rabbits wouldn't make contrast less jarring. And him working for GUN was a very handy plot device.
Anyone else CAN be humans, but just as easily could be Mobians. We would avoid some drama with Elise. I bet Shara and Merlina would be more popular as well.

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Just because you can replace them with anthros doesn’t mean they don’t need to be there—that’s not how storytelling works, and you could just as easily say the opposite and use that to make more humans, in which that doesn’t mean anthros are unnecessary either. If you can turn those humans into anthros...that just means you turned them into anthros—they’d still have the same minor appearance regardless.

Trrrrue, but you can't turn Sonic or Blaze into human, and even if you can, few people will be glad. This is franchise about talking animals, it's save to assume that we prefer mobians.

No one played Star Fox and thought "this game would work better if Peppy was a human".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Pickle could been easily replaced with Relic if she wasn't busy. Heck, Uncle Chuck could just visit library and fins Gaia Manuscripts. I guess some people like Pickle, but I never got why his cucumber sandwiches are so funny.

Madonna and Amanda Tower exist, but leave no impact.  Station Square could been populated by Mobians and saved by new FF side-group and story wouldn't be poorer in anyway. Same goes for any human key-guardian.

So after reading @Conquering Storm’s Servant and @Shadowlax posts I'm not even sure if we disagree or not.

Depends on what you call leaving an impact? Because replacing humans with mobians doesn’t do that in itself either. There’s a reason why Relic was busy or why Chuck couldn’t just go to the library—first off, Relic was interested in something entirely different, that being Angel Isle and could be used more to expand that part, and Chuck is not an archeologist like Prof. Pickle, who was the only character on the planet with the manuscripts and one of the few on the planet with the knowledge relevant to their cause, hence why he was deemed important for his part in the narrative as opposed to Chuck simply visiting a library.

I’m not saying humans are necessary, but they’re definitely not irrelevant when they’re given moments to take action or are given major parts just because they’re not mobians.

Quote

Trrrrue, but you can't turn Sonic or Blaze into human, and even if you can, few people will be glad. This is franchise about talking animals, it's save to assume that we prefer mobians.

No one played Star Fox and thought "this game would work better if Peppy was a human".

And no one played a Sonic game and thought “this would be better if he were a furry werewolf” or had aliens or wacky-colored trolls, gods, and demons, but surprises happen around the corner. 

I doubt anyone could prove how few people would be glad in a franchise as volatile as this—people said the same thing about the inclusion of a character creator feature in Forces being a possible bad idea before release, and it turned out to be the least worst aspect compared to Classic Sonic’s inclusion of all things.


But this franchise started with a talking animal and a human. Mobians just happen to comprise most of the cast, but people don’t prefer characters solely based on whether they’re anthros or not. That doesn’t define preferences especially when one of the most popular characters in this franchise is a human himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Based on what?

Well whole discussion really boils down to this single question, doesn't it?

I say "I think we can all agree that majority of of fans prefer Mobian over humans", you say "Um, no."

And how do I disprove it? For me it's just seems logical, almost axiom. At the end of the day, different between humans and mobian is only one: design. Mobians just feel more natural next to Sonic and are more colorful, I though that was the whole point of making games about animals.
And Eggman? I could be stubborn and claim that we just got used to him, but that's leads to impasse. I guess making him sole human made him more special, with thin environmental message.
But there is very simple counterargument: Eggette. Fun and beloved character, based on pretty much on design alone.

So I guess I change my previous statement to something less black-white, but longer to say:
"Human in Sonic created SO FAR are less popular than mobians. Even important-ish ones, like Shara, Merlina or Pickle, pale in popularity of not just Silver or Rouge, but even  Chip and Marine (I can't prove it, but that's what I believe). It could be potentially changed if Sega introduced humans with really good design, rather than anime-ish look they went so far. Unleashed might been step in right direction, but didn't introduced any really major human character."

 

Can we at least agree on my previous point: that humans characters, while useful, aren't needed for IDW and wouldn't drastically change writing quality?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the big thing about removing humans to me is it makes the world feel shallower and less diverse. Throw in someone like me indulging in the Japanese side of things and seeing many human or human-like characters even pre-Adventure and their totally removal just doesn't sit right with me. And I'm not really concerned about popularity when I yearn to slow down in a stage and look at what is going on and see both humans and anthros coexisting going about their days as Sonic races by. That feels so much deeper to me and makes the world that much more engaging. Saying only one or the other is such a closed minded approach to me makes me want to ask the memed to death question of "why not both?". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda off but also on topic (since you were talking about it) is that I'm plotting a new fan fiction (in english this time) that will make good use of Eclipse, Madonna, Amanda Tower, Julian Snively and a couple more, with Shadow & Team Dark as focus of the story. Very excited about it, I hope you can read it once chapter 1 is ready. I was really into this mini-universe from Archie reboot and it freaking sucks that we never got to dive deep into it.

(For the record Shadow isn't an evil monster in it, he's the protagonist)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there’s now an extra 2+ weeks to go before issue 25, but could anyone please remind me when we usually get the initial preview pages? Is it the Friday before the release date? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, caitash said:

I know there’s now an extra 2+ weeks to go before issue 25, but could anyone please remind me when we usually get the initial preview pages? Is it the Friday before the release date? Thanks.

It's usually a Tuesday with added pages coming in 24 hours before the issue is out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I'm wanna say is I agree with the general idea of Fan J.

I'm generally fine with Sonic having a varied cast that coexist and travel across many different locales/worlds/dimensions/timelines, sometimes within the same one. While my understanding of the leeway and tolerance of certain things has changed over the years, it's cool that there are such colorful crossovers inherent to the series and there are others that embrace that idea wholeheartedly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BlueSpeedsterYT said:

It's usually a Tuesday with added pages coming in 24 hours before the issue is out

Cool, thanks. I knew about the 24 hours before, but with the release dates becoming rather.... sporadic... to say the least, I’d lost track of when the initial preview pages land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

What do you think about Arc 1? Isnt it just recycling Sonic Heroe's plot?

First off, appreciate you actually trying to prod some genuine discussion here from time to time. Second, eeeh, it was alright? With good moments in places?

The Sonic Heroes "recycling" wasn't really an issue to me in part because they actually did something a little cool with it via Neo Metal's fights. There were other neat things like Amy's issue, Rough and Tumble's introduction, Mr. Tinker, Whisper's potential, and maybe Knuckles' personal stake, but overall, it was just sorta okay with a vague formula that stuck around more than it probably should've and a select few oddities.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, does having Metal Sonic transform immediately make it a heroes copy? Was Knuckles Chaotix retroactively a heroes copy?

Heck, the Arc didn't even have the full heroes cast. It took some beats from Heroes, but that's just because Heroes was an influential game. The story was different enough from heroes for me to consider it its own story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cover and Solcit for Idw Sonic #28:

spacer.png

All or Nothing," Part Three!. Sonic's allies continue their missions against the Deadly Six, attempting to reclaim the Chaos Emeralds. Who will return from their final stands? And will they make it back before Sonic has to face Zavok? Fantastic battles continue as we reach the climax of the Metal Virus Saga.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

The cover and Solcit for Idw Sonic #28:

spacer.png

All or Nothing," Part Three!. Sonic's allies continue their missions against the Deadly Six, attempting to reclaim the Chaos Emeralds. Who will return from their final stands? And will they make it back before Sonic has to face Zavok? Fantastic battles continue as we reach the climax of the Metal Virus Saga.

Huh. Espio vs Zazz is not a battle I expected to see, but cool anyway. Cover too.

And yeah, figured Zavok would be part of the final fight; Master Zik and Zor must be a part of side battles or something. Although I'm noticing they say "reach the climax"--does that imply there's more to the final battle than what the trade format would?

EDIT: It just occurred to me that not only do they have the same color scheme despite polar opposite personalities, but Zazz does in fact have the ability to conjure exploding caltrops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm wondering if this means #29 will be the end or if #30-33 will be the ending arc? I mean honestly I'm betting 29 will end the saga and 30-33 will be clean up/starting a new one but still the wording there is interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I'm wondering if this means #29 will be the end or if #30-33 will be the ending arc? I mean honestly I'm betting 29 will end the saga and 30-33 will be clean up/starting a new one but still the wording there is interesting.

It almost sounds like the latter, given that climax generally means the big built-up payoff rather than the ending itself and it says that this is reaching it.

1 hour ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

It's part 3 of the arc which means Zazz is not the first fight this time, but closer to the climax. 

Which while not all that notable is fitting, given he is the 2nd most recurring of the group and practically their mascot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got into the IDW Comics recently & here are my thoughts on them. Hard to believe it's been nearly 2-years since these things started.

Looks like this winded up getting posted the same day as we get the new cover for #28. Interesting timing though.

On another note, despite Not liking the Zeti all that much. I'm still interested to see how things go from here with them. Yeah, their motives are still the same as before so not much different outside of other characters taking them on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Blueknight V2.0 said:

I just got into the IDW Comics recently & here are my thoughts on them. Hard to believe it's been nearly 2-years since these things started.

Looks like this winded up getting posted the same day as we get the new cover for #28. Interesting timing though.

On another note, despite Not liking the Zeti all that much. I'm still interested to see how things go from here with them. Yeah, their motives are still the same as before so not much different outside of other characters taking them on.

Yeah, that's a bit of a concern with how much weight this arc had.

Still, better than the games have been doing with them since their debut.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I can agree there. I mean Zavok in Forces I thought was okay, mostly because that was a fake version. But Team Sonic Racing, which is canon, has him working for Eggman again!? Yet the only way to have known why was via the instruction manual. That's Not exactly a bad thing, but it would've been something to prevent confusion in-game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.