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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

I hope they write Shadow differently after this arc.

I just re-read his moments in the metal virus arc and it's as bad as the first time I read it

I agree. I think though the bigger issue isn't that its bad, that isn't to deny its lack in quality , is that overall shadow's kinda worthless in this entire book. It gives those weird lines in the metal saga a very odd context, or lack their of.

I want shadow to be written better , but what I want the most is for the comic to show having him around is a good thing. Shadow has kinda got cheated out of having that story about him. Ian Flynn wanted to write shadow apart of some larger thing with shadow's characterization payoff coming through some sort of sacrifice, so shadow wasn't really much of a character in his first IDW appearances. " Oh this guy seemed like a dick but he's actually really cool and has points" .When we supposed to get that characterization , sega wanted him different. And now Ian is talking about not writing him for a while.

I would like a comic where shadow is written differently. But If I am being honest, I would like a comic where shadow is written at all? Because that would show people why he's valuable to have around or interesting.

I think what stings the most about comic shadow. Is not his abrasive personality, its not sega's intervention, its not his lack of clear characterization on Ian's part. But that it doesn't even seem the narrative he was supposed to head up is interesting to the audience. Shadow's perspective on eggman is supposed to be coloring this entire narrative. The entire scenario that is occurring is partially sonic's fault. The issue is, from what I am seeing from fans... no one cares? And in some cases actively critical of it, no one talks about that part and are actively criticizing characters for being too upset about it even though they are justified , because this level of drama for a lot of folks doesn't fit their perception of these characters. So it seems like even if sega didn't intervene that entire book wouldn't really have been received well because no one cares to have that argument about eggman. Either way shadow's part in the story would have been pointless, but with this version Ian decides he just doesn't want to write him for a while. So that isn't the best look, and it sucks if you like that character.

If I may end this on a bit of an ironic note. While yes the eggman morality thing seems like for audience the least interesting bit. Part of the reasons given for audience members not being fond of say espio indulging in this because it doesn't fit his character. That makes sense, a lot of these characters ( including sonic himself TBH ) aren't built to have thoughts like that and it isn't that interesting of a narrative for that world. However  they do have a character that is good for that and he was turned into a zombie for a cheap pop for one comic and doesn't and seems like he wont show up in anything significant again.

Shadow's abrasive personality on sega's end and Flynns desire for some intricate morality driven narrative has given shadow nothing of value to do or to be. Shadow doing nothing and just talking with sonic about this and the situation would have actually brought more value than either side has done. That's a weird bit of irony.

 

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On that one point...literally in Espio's first voiced appearance he vows (more than once if I remember correctly) to kill Eggman.

Sometimes it's not official writers' fault fans don't remember everything or have specific interpretations of characters that just don't gel with how they actually are.

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The only fix I'd have had for Shadow is that he got infected, but instead of going full dumbass, "Cell Saga Vegeta" like IDW has him, he actually used a couple of his active brain cells and ran when he was told to and then he and Sonic are forced to work together and hash things out to come to some compromise. I think it'd give people time to warm up to this incarnation, but I think the story was just a bit too ambitious this early on when smaller storylines to develop the characters would have been more effective.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Part of the reasons given for audience members not being fond of say espio indulging in this because it doesn't fit his character.

"Death to the evil one! Prepare to die, Eggman!"

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I feel like people don't care about the Eggman morality issue, or even this entire arc for two specific reasons:

1) They're not going to kill Eggman, ever. It's a pointless question to bring up because it presents a situation that can literally never be resolved. He's the franchise's primary and most recurring villain and will always be prominently featured in some capacity. To that effect, it makes Shadow seem foolish for trying to kill him because you already know that he isn't going to succeed no matter how valid his arguments are. He has to be wrong, otherwise it makes the heroes look worse for never doing something about Eggman despite how dangerous he is. And as pointed out, this entire scenario vidicates Shadow's point because this entire arc is the result of Sonic letting Eggman go, and shows exactly why Shadow was justified in trying to get rid of him early. Basically, it's presented a problem but without an actual solution.

2) There's no real characterization buildup for this arc, it's just something that kind of happens. Obviously somebody thought that writing this type of arc was for the sake of enticing readers with a large scale conflict that shows all of the characters involved. But because there was no time to developing the specific incarnations of these characters, you pretty much have to rely on prior incarnations to establish some kind of base. Sometimes that's fine, but as others have criticized, people believe the characters are not acting in ways they feel are appropriate, because the series has yet to establish who these specific versions of these characters are or why we should care about them and their situation. So we have to rely on what we already know about these characters, but that's not always congruent with what this series does. Is IDW!Sonic different from Sega!Sonic, how so? What differentiates them?  The series has been more focused on telling big, epic storylines than actually developing the setting or characters in them.

On an added note, it makes watching these dark and bleak moments ring absolutely hollow at times. We're watching a world and characters that we barely know anything about succumb to this epidemic, but without the proper buildup and focus, it can absolutely fall flat. On top of that, it's been nothing but these moments for almost a year now. Every single issue to this point can basically be summed up as "It got worse". I get that it's a Western comic book series and there's only but so much stuff that can be added, but that's exactly why each issue needs to have enough content to hold the reader over for the month. Watching the same thing happen on repeat gets old very fast. 

 

 

Ultimately, after the Metal Virus saga is resolved, I feel like this series should back to square one; nix the resistance/faux forces setup and focus more on establishing the setting and characters. You can do this with micro scaled and more character-driven stories similar to what Tangle and Whisper pulled off. Once the setting has been properly established then things can start building towards some macro-sized conflict.

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7 hours ago, SBR2 said:
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I think it's supposed to be Rouge. 

 

I think someone on Twitter said that as well. 

A bit of a strange depiction though. For a second there, I thought we might looking at a reworked Phage.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I think what stings the most about comic shadow. Is not his abrasive personality, its not sega's intervention, its not his lack of clear characterization on Ian's part. But that it doesn't even seem the narrative he was supposed to head up is interesting to the audience. Shadow's perspective on eggman is supposed to be coloring this entire narrative.

Shadow's abrasive personality on sega's end and Flynns desire for some intricate morality driven narrative has given shadow nothing of value to do or to be. Shadow doing nothing and just talking with sonic about this and the situation would have actually brought more value than either side has done. That's a weird bit of irony.

That's a good point--indeed, Shadow's inclusion from the start has always felt like a protracted part of an intense debate with Sonic's way of doing things, but generally boiled down to "Oh shoot, Sonic and Shadow are fighting again--just like Adventure 2!" and "because dark antihero."

Quote

Part of the reasons given for audience members not being fond of say espio indulging in this because it doesn't fit his character. That makes sense, a lot of these characters ( including sonic himself TBH ) aren't built to have thoughts like that and it isn't that interesting of a narrative for that world. 

 

Uh?

2 hours ago, Celestia said:

On that one point...literally in Espio's first voiced appearance he vows (more than once if I remember correctly) to kill Eggman.

That's technically a carryover from Knuckles Chaotix as well.

2 hours ago, Zaysho said:

The only fix I'd have had for Shadow is that he got infected, but instead of going full dumbass, "Cell Saga Vegeta" like IDW has him, he actually used a couple of his active brain cells and ran when he was told to and then he and Sonic are forced to work together and hash things out to come to some compromise. I think it'd give people time to warm up to this incarnation, but I think the story was just a bit too ambitious this early on when smaller storylines to develop the characters would have been more effective.

It makes sense--most of the Shadow centric stories in Dreamcast & early Modern era tended to have him as a protagonist in his own right with a bigger picture/conflict/force to investigate being at play. 

Of course, this time the big[ger]/only villain was Eggman himself and yeah, not really how those worked. The Band of Six Zeti being brought in at the Eleventh Hour doesn't absolve that either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Marco9966 

Spoiler

Any flavor text to Zazz and Zor having their Mechs?

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59 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

2) There's no real characterization buildup for this arc, it's just something that kind of happens.

(Concurrently): No, there isn't.

Quote

Obviously somebody thought that writing this type of arc was for the sake of enticing readers with a large scale conflict that shows all of the characters involved. But because there was no time to developing the specific incarnations of these characters, you pretty much have to rely on prior incarnations to establish some kind of base. Sometimes that's fine, but as others have criticized, people believe the characters are not acting in ways they feel are appropriate, because the series has yet to establish who these specific versions of these characters are or why we should care about them and their situation. So we have to rely on what we already know about these characters, but that's not always congruent with what this series does. Is IDW!Sonic different from Sega!Sonic, how so? What differentiates them?  The series has been more focused on telling big, epic storylines than actually developing the setting or characters in them.

Speaking of Espio, that also leads to things like him not showing any issue with the Tinker situation or maybe even Sonic not pointing out his silence during their heated moment.

 

40 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

I agree, this isn't world building, this is literally making a map (I think, I haven't seen the leaked pages), but… world building is more, it's expanding lore, IMO.

More or less.

Kinda adds to the tide-over appeal of these comics nowadays.

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19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

.

Speaking of Espio, that also leads to things like him not showing any issue with the Tinker situation or maybe even Sonic not pointing out his silence during their heated moment.

 

Espio wanted Eggman to be taken to justice, didn't he? He changed his mind easily, but he still was pro-taking down Eggman.

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15 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Espio wanted Eggman to be taken to justice, didn't he? He changed his mind easily, but he still was pro-taking down Eggman.

I must confess I haven't gone back to that story, so I can't really answer that in earnest. I mainly remember him and Vector not having much to do in it.

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3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

The only fix I'd have had for Shadow is that he got infected, but instead of going full dumbass, "Cell Saga Vegeta" like IDW has him...

I wouldn't compare Shadow to that...because outside of the stupidity in hindsight, it would imply that Shadow's random ego and boasting was at all justified for any reason.

Unless he's seeing Sonic infected as a reason to boost himself up...

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Ian Flynn tells us himself this new thing is fast paced and he wanted to write something more spontaneous. And I don't think epsically for sonic that's a bad idea. Its just like...

Video games have the advantage of when you play as a character through narrative and action you get to know the character. Comics and non interactive mediums in general generally do not have that advantage. As such, when you are starting a new story it would kind of behoove you to establish your players first. And that's sort of my issue with the book, along with shadow there are quite a few players that don't get established including the world itself. Its why the zombification of it to me rings hollow. This world as of current to me means very little, why should I care if it burns. You gotta convince me to buy in on your stuff and it doesn't really. The drama is kinda need between some game character, but I noticed I don't actually give much of a shit about the world being metaled up because I never really gave too much of one about the world.

This book could do for just character stories for a while. Or world building stories or...something man. Shit went form 0 to 10000 and the sun blew out

3 hours ago, Celestia said:

On that one point...literally in Espio's first voiced appearance he vows (more than once if I remember correctly) to kill Eggman.

Sometimes it's not official writers' fault fans don't remember everything or have specific interpretations of characters that just don't gel with how they actually are.

Fair enough, though... if I may be fair.  Is it the fans fault is sega never really makes  that apart of his characterization ever again. And at least in Ian Flynn's last outing characterized him as more as another child getting into childish arguments with charmy rather than the murderous ninja that he apparently was. While I can certainly understand fans having a whole different perception of a character than the one that's there , that was basically the silver fanbase holding him down untill they just made silver...what the silver fanbase thought he was. But I feel like in this instance whilist you bring up a fair point, I it miay be a combo effort.

2 hours ago, Big Panda said:

Yeah...I was expecting a big influx of game locations being confirmed.

Not two comic-original places with non-descript names.

And to be fair to Ian Unless i'm mistaken, I think sega might be part of why places in the world are undefined.

 

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Fair enough, though... if I may be fair.  Is it the fans fault is sega never really makes  that apart of his characterization ever again.

I mean, he hasn't had enough screentime to really do much and seldom had much to him anyway.

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And at least in Ian Flynn's last outing characterized him as more as another child getting into childish arguments with charmy rather than the murderous ninja that he apparently was.

Which one now?

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

While I can certainly understand fans having a whole different perception of a character than the one that's there , that was basically the silver fanbase holding him down untill they just made silver...what the silver fanbase thought he was. But I feel like in this instance whilist you bring up a fair point, I it miay be a combo effort.

Silver is sort of a weird middleground where he both wasn't really like he is in debut and yet his debut did contain those elements on a subtle or one case informed basis.  The comics just ran with it, bringing that side of him to the forefront and since things aren't quite as tight or intense as his introduction, it stands to reason that he would be that way.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like people don't care about the Eggman morality issue, or even this entire arc for two specific reasons:

1) They're not going to kill Eggman, ever. It's a pointless question to bring up because it presents a situation that can literally never be resolved. He's the franchise's primary and most recurring villain and will always be prominently featured in some capacity. To that effect, it makes Shadow seem foolish for trying to kill him because you already know that he isn't going to succeed no matter how valid his arguments are. He has to be wrong, otherwise it makes the heroes look worse for never doing something about Eggman despite how dangerous he is. And as pointed out, this entire scenario vidicates Shadow's point because this entire arc is the result of Sonic letting Eggman go, and shows exactly why Shadow was justified in trying to get rid of him early. Basically, it's presented a problem but without an actual solution.

Also I dunno...its kinda gross? If the argument was purely framed around memory loss. While flawed, I would get it. Sonic does two things in that argument that kind of makes this sonic either inattentive, sociopaths or just an awful hedgehog.

1) he compares shadow to eggman. A guy who had his memories manipulated  and then once that stopped, stopped being a dickhead. Well at least a world blowing up dickhead anyway. And a robo Dictator. Keyworld Dictator

2) He says that eggman helps. And its true when it saves his own skin he does. Here's the thing though, now we are actually telling stories that make eggman actions matter. Sonic is basically consenting to eggman murdering innocent people because he helps sometimes. Not even thinking that there is a possibility help society or whatever to like stop these godly threats ( eggman often is the harbinger off ) by themselves that don't require the robo dictator around.

If sonic would have kept the argument to just " its kinda fucked up to kill a dude with no memory " that's an interesting moral argument on its own and doesn't really need the rest of that. I don't think its that interesting in this context for the reasons you mentioned, but it like on some level has merit. But when you start making moral comparisons and start justifying eggman's continued villainous fuckery. The argument about " That guy helps " is an argument heroes have about anti heroes or villian's like Dr. Doom who's morality has been clearly defined to be while self serving nebulous and keeps to his own shit and even that's a stretch because he has tried to take over the universe multiple times. Its an argument you would have to someone else about shadow. Its argument for example batman has about jason todd a character who is on the moral strait and narrow but he's doing things for the greater good. Its not an argument you have about hyrda, or vandal savage or some shit. When the argument is about a dictator the conversation takes a tone I don't think ever should come out of sonic's goddamn mouth.

 

Quote

On an added note, it makes watching these dark and bleak moments ring absolutely hollow at times. We're watching a world and characters that we barely know anything about succumb to this epidemic, but without the proper buildup and focus, it can absolutely fall flat. On top of that, it's been nothing but these moments for almost a year now. Every single issue to this point can basically be summed up as "It got worse". I get that it's a Western comic book series and there's only but so much stuff that can be added, but that's exactly why each issue needs to have enough content to hold the reader over for the month. Watching the same thing happen on repeat gets old very fast. 

 

Its self indulgent in a way I just don't find interesting. Its like one of those fanfiction stories where people torture thier OC's. Eventually that starts to blend in and becomes and uninteresting slurry of generic sadness ( That is how I feel about Evans fan comic tbh ) . Though To evan's credit she will be the first one to tell you its a self indulgent slurry of sad. I don't want that feeling from the main book, its a feeling I used to get pre-reboot on occasion that went away during the reboot era and its not a welcome one

I like sad, I like characters with sad stories. But like you have to earn that sadness it doesn't feel earned here

Quote

Ultimately, after the Metal Virus saga is resolved, I feel like this series should back to square one; nix the resistance/faux forces setup and focus more on establishing the setting and characters. You can do this with micro scaled and more character-driven stories similar to what Tangle and Whisper pulled off. Once the setting has been properly established then things can start building towards some macro-sized conflict.

this. I have yet to see amy be amy without this looming over her character

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I mean, he hasn't had enough screentime to really do much and seldom had much to him anyway.

Fair

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which one now?

If I'm not misrembering when they literally drive under the sea

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Silver is sort of a weird middleground where he both wasn't really like he is in debut and yet his debut did contain those elements on a subtle or one case informed basis.  The comics just ran with it, bringing that side of him to the forefront and since things aren't quite as tight or intense as his introduction, it stands to reason that he would be that way.

Fair

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11 hours ago, caitash said:

Apparently some comic shops have started selling issue 25 early so please be wary of spoilers appearing if you don’t want it spoiled.

 

Also the 2 extra preview pages are out:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Any chance we get two more additional preview pages to make up for the gap?

Spoiler

That backfired for Starlight way quicker than I thought it would.

 

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55 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Also I dunno...its kinda gross? If the argument was purely framed around memory loss. While flawed, I would get it. Sonic does two things in that argument that kind of makes this sonic either inattentive, sociopaths or just an awful hedgehog.

1) he compares shadow to eggman. A guy who had his memories manipulated  and then once that stopped, stopped being a dickhead. Well at least a world blowing up dickhead anyway. And a robo Dictator. Keyworld Dictator

2) He says that eggman helps. And its true when it saves his own skin he does. Here's the thing though, now we are actually telling stories that make eggman actions matter. Sonic is basically consenting to eggman murdering innocent people because he helps sometimes. Not even thinking that there is a possibility help society or whatever to like stop these godly threats ( eggman often is the harbinger off ) by themselves that don't require the robo dictator around.

If sonic would have kept the argument to just " its kinda fucked up to kill a dude with no memory " that's an interesting moral argument on its own and doesn't really need the rest of that. I don't think its that interesting in this context for the reasons you mentioned, but it like on some level has merit. But when you start making moral comparisons and start justifying eggman's continued villainous fuckery. The argument about " That guy helps " is an argument heroes have about anti heroes or villian's like Dr. Doom who's morality has been clearly defined to be while self serving nebulous and keeps to his own shit and even that's a stretch because he has tried to take over the universe multiple times. Its an argument you would have to someone else about shadow. Its argument for example batman has about jason todd a character who is on the moral strait and narrow but he's doing things for the greater good. Its not an argument you have about hyrda, or vandal savage or some shit. When the argument is about a dictator the conversation takes a tone I don't think ever should come out of sonic's goddamn mouth.

 

 

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

 

 

I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

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