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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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7 hours ago, SBR2 said:
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I think it's supposed to be Rouge. 

 

I think someone on Twitter said that as well. 

A bit of a strange depiction though. For a second there, I thought we might looking at a reworked Phage.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I think what stings the most about comic shadow. Is not his abrasive personality, its not sega's intervention, its not his lack of clear characterization on Ian's part. But that it doesn't even seem the narrative he was supposed to head up is interesting to the audience. Shadow's perspective on eggman is supposed to be coloring this entire narrative.

Shadow's abrasive personality on sega's end and Flynns desire for some intricate morality driven narrative has given shadow nothing of value to do or to be. Shadow doing nothing and just talking with sonic about this and the situation would have actually brought more value than either side has done. That's a weird bit of irony.

That's a good point--indeed, Shadow's inclusion from the start has always felt like a protracted part of an intense debate with Sonic's way of doing things, but generally boiled down to "Oh shoot, Sonic and Shadow are fighting again--just like Adventure 2!" and "because dark antihero."

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Part of the reasons given for audience members not being fond of say espio indulging in this because it doesn't fit his character. That makes sense, a lot of these characters ( including sonic himself TBH ) aren't built to have thoughts like that and it isn't that interesting of a narrative for that world. 

 

Uh?

2 hours ago, Celestia said:

On that one point...literally in Espio's first voiced appearance he vows (more than once if I remember correctly) to kill Eggman.

That's technically a carryover from Knuckles Chaotix as well.

2 hours ago, Zaysho said:

The only fix I'd have had for Shadow is that he got infected, but instead of going full dumbass, "Cell Saga Vegeta" like IDW has him, he actually used a couple of his active brain cells and ran when he was told to and then he and Sonic are forced to work together and hash things out to come to some compromise. I think it'd give people time to warm up to this incarnation, but I think the story was just a bit too ambitious this early on when smaller storylines to develop the characters would have been more effective.

It makes sense--most of the Shadow centric stories in Dreamcast & early Modern era tended to have him as a protagonist in his own right with a bigger picture/conflict/force to investigate being at play. 

Of course, this time the big[ger]/only villain was Eggman himself and yeah, not really how those worked. The Band of Six Zeti being brought in at the Eleventh Hour doesn't absolve that either.

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@Marco9966 

Spoiler

Any flavor text to Zazz and Zor having their Mechs?

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59 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

2) There's no real characterization buildup for this arc, it's just something that kind of happens.

(Concurrently): No, there isn't.

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Obviously somebody thought that writing this type of arc was for the sake of enticing readers with a large scale conflict that shows all of the characters involved. But because there was no time to developing the specific incarnations of these characters, you pretty much have to rely on prior incarnations to establish some kind of base. Sometimes that's fine, but as others have criticized, people believe the characters are not acting in ways they feel are appropriate, because the series has yet to establish who these specific versions of these characters are or why we should care about them and their situation. So we have to rely on what we already know about these characters, but that's not always congruent with what this series does. Is IDW!Sonic different from Sega!Sonic, how so? What differentiates them?  The series has been more focused on telling big, epic storylines than actually developing the setting or characters in them.

Speaking of Espio, that also leads to things like him not showing any issue with the Tinker situation or maybe even Sonic not pointing out his silence during their heated moment.

 

40 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

I agree, this isn't world building, this is literally making a map (I think, I haven't seen the leaked pages), but… world building is more, it's expanding lore, IMO.

More or less.

Kinda adds to the tide-over appeal of these comics nowadays.

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19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

.

Speaking of Espio, that also leads to things like him not showing any issue with the Tinker situation or maybe even Sonic not pointing out his silence during their heated moment.

 

Espio wanted Eggman to be taken to justice, didn't he? He changed his mind easily, but he still was pro-taking down Eggman.

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15 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Espio wanted Eggman to be taken to justice, didn't he? He changed his mind easily, but he still was pro-taking down Eggman.

I must confess I haven't gone back to that story, so I can't really answer that in earnest. I mainly remember him and Vector not having much to do in it.

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3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

The only fix I'd have had for Shadow is that he got infected, but instead of going full dumbass, "Cell Saga Vegeta" like IDW has him...

I wouldn't compare Shadow to that...because outside of the stupidity in hindsight, it would imply that Shadow's random ego and boasting was at all justified for any reason.

Unless he's seeing Sonic infected as a reason to boost himself up...

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Ian Flynn tells us himself this new thing is fast paced and he wanted to write something more spontaneous. And I don't think epsically for sonic that's a bad idea. Its just like...

Video games have the advantage of when you play as a character through narrative and action you get to know the character. Comics and non interactive mediums in general generally do not have that advantage. As such, when you are starting a new story it would kind of behoove you to establish your players first. And that's sort of my issue with the book, along with shadow there are quite a few players that don't get established including the world itself. Its why the zombification of it to me rings hollow. This world as of current to me means very little, why should I care if it burns. You gotta convince me to buy in on your stuff and it doesn't really. The drama is kinda need between some game character, but I noticed I don't actually give much of a shit about the world being metaled up because I never really gave too much of one about the world.

This book could do for just character stories for a while. Or world building stories or...something man. Shit went form 0 to 10000 and the sun blew out

3 hours ago, Celestia said:

On that one point...literally in Espio's first voiced appearance he vows (more than once if I remember correctly) to kill Eggman.

Sometimes it's not official writers' fault fans don't remember everything or have specific interpretations of characters that just don't gel with how they actually are.

Fair enough, though... if I may be fair.  Is it the fans fault is sega never really makes  that apart of his characterization ever again. And at least in Ian Flynn's last outing characterized him as more as another child getting into childish arguments with charmy rather than the murderous ninja that he apparently was. While I can certainly understand fans having a whole different perception of a character than the one that's there , that was basically the silver fanbase holding him down untill they just made silver...what the silver fanbase thought he was. But I feel like in this instance whilist you bring up a fair point, I it miay be a combo effort.

2 hours ago, Big Panda said:

Yeah...I was expecting a big influx of game locations being confirmed.

Not two comic-original places with non-descript names.

And to be fair to Ian Unless i'm mistaken, I think sega might be part of why places in the world are undefined.

 

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Fair enough, though... if I may be fair.  Is it the fans fault is sega never really makes  that apart of his characterization ever again.

I mean, he hasn't had enough screentime to really do much and seldom had much to him anyway.

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And at least in Ian Flynn's last outing characterized him as more as another child getting into childish arguments with charmy rather than the murderous ninja that he apparently was.

Which one now?

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

While I can certainly understand fans having a whole different perception of a character than the one that's there , that was basically the silver fanbase holding him down untill they just made silver...what the silver fanbase thought he was. But I feel like in this instance whilist you bring up a fair point, I it miay be a combo effort.

Silver is sort of a weird middleground where he both wasn't really like he is in debut and yet his debut did contain those elements on a subtle or one case informed basis.  The comics just ran with it, bringing that side of him to the forefront and since things aren't quite as tight or intense as his introduction, it stands to reason that he would be that way.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like people don't care about the Eggman morality issue, or even this entire arc for two specific reasons:

1) They're not going to kill Eggman, ever. It's a pointless question to bring up because it presents a situation that can literally never be resolved. He's the franchise's primary and most recurring villain and will always be prominently featured in some capacity. To that effect, it makes Shadow seem foolish for trying to kill him because you already know that he isn't going to succeed no matter how valid his arguments are. He has to be wrong, otherwise it makes the heroes look worse for never doing something about Eggman despite how dangerous he is. And as pointed out, this entire scenario vidicates Shadow's point because this entire arc is the result of Sonic letting Eggman go, and shows exactly why Shadow was justified in trying to get rid of him early. Basically, it's presented a problem but without an actual solution.

Also I dunno...its kinda gross? If the argument was purely framed around memory loss. While flawed, I would get it. Sonic does two things in that argument that kind of makes this sonic either inattentive, sociopaths or just an awful hedgehog.

1) he compares shadow to eggman. A guy who had his memories manipulated  and then once that stopped, stopped being a dickhead. Well at least a world blowing up dickhead anyway. And a robo Dictator. Keyworld Dictator

2) He says that eggman helps. And its true when it saves his own skin he does. Here's the thing though, now we are actually telling stories that make eggman actions matter. Sonic is basically consenting to eggman murdering innocent people because he helps sometimes. Not even thinking that there is a possibility help society or whatever to like stop these godly threats ( eggman often is the harbinger off ) by themselves that don't require the robo dictator around.

If sonic would have kept the argument to just " its kinda fucked up to kill a dude with no memory " that's an interesting moral argument on its own and doesn't really need the rest of that. I don't think its that interesting in this context for the reasons you mentioned, but it like on some level has merit. But when you start making moral comparisons and start justifying eggman's continued villainous fuckery. The argument about " That guy helps " is an argument heroes have about anti heroes or villian's like Dr. Doom who's morality has been clearly defined to be while self serving nebulous and keeps to his own shit and even that's a stretch because he has tried to take over the universe multiple times. Its an argument you would have to someone else about shadow. Its argument for example batman has about jason todd a character who is on the moral strait and narrow but he's doing things for the greater good. Its not an argument you have about hyrda, or vandal savage or some shit. When the argument is about a dictator the conversation takes a tone I don't think ever should come out of sonic's goddamn mouth.

 

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On an added note, it makes watching these dark and bleak moments ring absolutely hollow at times. We're watching a world and characters that we barely know anything about succumb to this epidemic, but without the proper buildup and focus, it can absolutely fall flat. On top of that, it's been nothing but these moments for almost a year now. Every single issue to this point can basically be summed up as "It got worse". I get that it's a Western comic book series and there's only but so much stuff that can be added, but that's exactly why each issue needs to have enough content to hold the reader over for the month. Watching the same thing happen on repeat gets old very fast. 

 

Its self indulgent in a way I just don't find interesting. Its like one of those fanfiction stories where people torture thier OC's. Eventually that starts to blend in and becomes and uninteresting slurry of generic sadness ( That is how I feel about Evans fan comic tbh ) . Though To evan's credit she will be the first one to tell you its a self indulgent slurry of sad. I don't want that feeling from the main book, its a feeling I used to get pre-reboot on occasion that went away during the reboot era and its not a welcome one

I like sad, I like characters with sad stories. But like you have to earn that sadness it doesn't feel earned here

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Ultimately, after the Metal Virus saga is resolved, I feel like this series should back to square one; nix the resistance/faux forces setup and focus more on establishing the setting and characters. You can do this with micro scaled and more character-driven stories similar to what Tangle and Whisper pulled off. Once the setting has been properly established then things can start building towards some macro-sized conflict.

this. I have yet to see amy be amy without this looming over her character

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I mean, he hasn't had enough screentime to really do much and seldom had much to him anyway.

Fair

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which one now?

If I'm not misrembering when they literally drive under the sea

27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Silver is sort of a weird middleground where he both wasn't really like he is in debut and yet his debut did contain those elements on a subtle or one case informed basis.  The comics just ran with it, bringing that side of him to the forefront and since things aren't quite as tight or intense as his introduction, it stands to reason that he would be that way.

Fair

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11 hours ago, caitash said:

Apparently some comic shops have started selling issue 25 early so please be wary of spoilers appearing if you don’t want it spoiled.

 

Also the 2 extra preview pages are out:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Any chance we get two more additional preview pages to make up for the gap?

Spoiler

That backfired for Starlight way quicker than I thought it would.

 

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55 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Also I dunno...its kinda gross? If the argument was purely framed around memory loss. While flawed, I would get it. Sonic does two things in that argument that kind of makes this sonic either inattentive, sociopaths or just an awful hedgehog.

1) he compares shadow to eggman. A guy who had his memories manipulated  and then once that stopped, stopped being a dickhead. Well at least a world blowing up dickhead anyway. And a robo Dictator. Keyworld Dictator

2) He says that eggman helps. And its true when it saves his own skin he does. Here's the thing though, now we are actually telling stories that make eggman actions matter. Sonic is basically consenting to eggman murdering innocent people because he helps sometimes. Not even thinking that there is a possibility help society or whatever to like stop these godly threats ( eggman often is the harbinger off ) by themselves that don't require the robo dictator around.

If sonic would have kept the argument to just " its kinda fucked up to kill a dude with no memory " that's an interesting moral argument on its own and doesn't really need the rest of that. I don't think its that interesting in this context for the reasons you mentioned, but it like on some level has merit. But when you start making moral comparisons and start justifying eggman's continued villainous fuckery. The argument about " That guy helps " is an argument heroes have about anti heroes or villian's like Dr. Doom who's morality has been clearly defined to be while self serving nebulous and keeps to his own shit and even that's a stretch because he has tried to take over the universe multiple times. Its an argument you would have to someone else about shadow. Its argument for example batman has about jason todd a character who is on the moral strait and narrow but he's doing things for the greater good. Its not an argument you have about hyrda, or vandal savage or some shit. When the argument is about a dictator the conversation takes a tone I don't think ever should come out of sonic's goddamn mouth.

 

 

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

 

 

I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

Here's my two issues with this.

1) I don't think you can say memory manipulation or not. Because his memory was manipulated, its not a did or did not thing. When that " spell " was broken , he immediately did the right thing. Like if shadow's arc was like a zuko kinda thing where it was over the course of several games to start doing good stuff. Like SA2's ending happened like 3 games later, then like I would be with you it would be clear even when undercontrol of his own own memory and mind he made choices. This isn't the case, the stuff he was made to believe ( as melodramatic as it was ) was so drastic as soon as that stopped happening he changed. It was damn near immediate. Its very clear while shadow is upset at GUN for being GUN , that shadow would have if gerald hadn't messed with his head. Its made very clear in the next few games too where shadow has ample oppertunity to I dunno blow up every gun facility in existence. Outside of noncanon endings in his own game, he doesn't. I think its very clear that with geralds own admission he was a bit of vengeful asshole and fucked with his own son's head to get that revenge taking away his autonomy in doing so.

2) Eggman IS a monster generally speaking. Eggman doesn't need memory manipulation. He regularly steals living things to shove them into robots to power them. Ruins the environment and regularly summons gods with flagrant disregard for what they will do to people in attempts to take over the worlds(s). He pissed on the moon for god sakes, who even does that?! Seriously though this is a guy who under every opportunity under his own normally functioning non programmed mental faculties. Decides to inact plans to be a dictator  , the last game was literally him doing the thing he wanted and taking over the world so hard that it was a resistance scenario. Eggman does not care about your petty morality and is willing to murder, steal , enslave and often all three to get to his end goal. Eggman is a monster.

The thing is  you aren't supposed to think about eggman like that. Yes eggman can very easily be a hammer over the head representation of " dictators are bad, Pollution is bad , fight the power", however he's a very cartoonish representation of that. You aren't supposed to think of him think of him that seriously especially with his game interpretations. He's either cartoonishly evil in classic games whipping out death stars or giant robots with his visage. Or in the modern games a goofball who seems evil but doesn't really have the follow through or the ability to plan ahead to make those plans mean something. He is often outsmarted by his help, or summons or creations or what have you because its supposed to reinforce he's kind of a goofball. Eggman is the character you are supposed to take the LEAST seriously. Everytime eggman is on the screen you expect him to screw up and he often does. You are not supposed to actually think about his actions seriously because when you do , you go " this guy is a dictator " . Its a collective ludonarrative dissonance that we as an audience have decided to go with because we like the characters place in the narrative. Its like Team Rocket , they work for a mob/terrorist organization that steals pokemon and are willing to at least leave people in deadly situations whilst doing so if not try and kill them. But you don't think about that shit because its jessie and james. Prepare for trouble, and make it double. There are other more serious characters for that , they are goofballs that are occasionally a bit more serious when the story needs it and less so when it doesn't.

When sonic or the comic itself starts calling eggman's morality into question, it makes the reader and more so the series have to think about what eggman is. And that's a dictator. I'm not saying shadow is perfect either, he ain't. While yes I do think shadow wasn't under normal mental faculties in SA2, do I think he feels that bad for some of  it? Nope. The most casualties that happened were on a GUN base. He's probably more than fine with that innocents were deffo on that base. And while I think the true ending of shadow's game implied to true path, Shadow probably killed some gun soilders on the way to that true good ending, you think they stopped shooting at him when he showed his " I'm doing the good route card " nah he defended himself. Shadow is a guy in this scenario willing to kill for the greater good, while I like shadow I think in most cases that mentality kinda starts off on the negative end of the morality spectrum. He is by no means an angel. But to compare him to a dictator... no that's not it. That speaks ill of the person who makes that comparison. On many levels.

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And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

I don't think there is an inherent moral difference here. That's like saying I dunno eggman found a gun and decided to rob a store vs He made a gun and decided to rob a store. Yes one has a bit more agency in that the intent is there to learn how to make a gun, but he made an active decision to do so. One just requires a bit less work on his end. Work smart not hard.

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I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

I would say so, not just because of all the stuff I said.

But also , asshole thing to do. The suggestion is that shadow, when he was being abused and manipulated by his creator from beyond the grave is the same as a dictator. While again I don't think shadow feels that bad a gun base got blown up, he probably feels kinda shitty he almost did the one thing his best friend didn't want him to do because his creator abused him and messed with his head. And to use that as a moral comparison point on the part of sonic is fucking gross to be blunt. And speaks to how little of an argument those writing sonic actually had when this was made. Its like if during the argument that shadow and knuckles had whilst fighting in the archie comics, shadow instead of suggesting knuckles find a new path, said the emerald is why his family is dead and if he follows their path he will die too. While yes in both scenarios there might be a kernel of truth, like "If you play judge jury and executioner too much every problems looks like a guillotine" and maybe "blindy following traditions can lead to your own demise."  Both parties both in the real scenario and in the hypothetical one aren't doing the thing enough or aren't " fallen " enough to warrant that talk. Shadow wasn't some guy killing everyone he ran across if he did forces wouldn't have happened. He was a guy willing to do something that due to the comic now evoking canon with eggman's deeds is kinda justified in this willingness to do the thing.

So in this scenario it isn't sonic calling out some character flaw, its sonic being emotionally manipulative with a subjective sensitive to shadow in one of the worst ways possible. Sonic wasn't being sonic in that scene, he was scourge. He was a manipulative douche and it might have actually been better for him to bring up maria because at least that would have been an appeal to shadow's inherent sense of right and justice rather than comparing his issues with his " father " to that of a willing fascist. He doesn't want to wish harm on his worst enemies, but emotionally manipulating a guy who you consider a hero as well? That's above board?

I like Ian Flynn , I hope he writes TV and movies and shit some day. But IMO this was a bad call, and his continued desires to make eggman some super serious character that can be called into moral question continues to open up the dialog of " Why don't they kill the dictator" . When the characters a dictator that's kinda hard question to deny, but when its about a guy who's lost his memories? That's an easier moral ground to tread. And a more interesting one for this series.

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

this. I have yet to see amy be amy without this looming over her character

I mean, there was issue 2, which was arguably the best of the debut issues.

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If I'm not misrembering when they literally drive under the sea

 

Okay, I thought so.

I think this came up in the relevant thread a week or two ago: Espio is kind of straight-faced yet still seen as cool compared to most of the other characters, but is also part of the comedic group of weirdos among the cast. So most of the side continuities tend to give him moments/traits of being not so above it all to compensate and get more out of him.

They've kinda been doing the same thing with Zavok lately, now that I think about it. Which is sorta ironic.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

 

 

I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

It's worth noting that Eggman among other things in this comic is drawing from Forces, where he gave a psychopath the infinitesmal power to directly slaughter hundreds of mobians and was even planning long-term to drop a sun on them.

.

22 minutes ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

 

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Why is Zor rhyming everything he says? That's...not something he does.

 

Yeah, I noticed that but forgot to comment on it. 😛  

I think it's trying to work in something from the Japanese version of Lost World, but I'm not too versed in that outside of what I remember from the cutscenes. With that said, I do know that it's vaguely implied or at least inferrable that he's more into (for lack of a more general word) romance than he let's on through certain musical cues and a line from the afformentioned cutscenes. 

Also, didn't somebody claim he and Zeena were in Runners a while back?

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16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Here's my two issues with this.

1) I don't think you can say memory manipulation or not. Because his memory was manipulated, its not a did or did not thing. When that " spell " was broken , he immediately did the right thing. Like if shadow's arc was like a zuko kinda thing where it was over the course of several games to start doing good stuff. Like SA2's ending happened like 3 games later, then like I would be with you it would be clear even when undercontrol of his own own memory and mind he made choices. This isn't the case, the stuff he was made to believe ( as melodramatic as it was ) was so drastic as soon as that stopped happening he changed. It was damn near immediate. Its very clear while shadow is upset at GUN for being GUN , that shadow would have if gerald hadn't messed with his head. Its made very clear in the next few games too where shadow has ample oppertunity to I dunno blow up every gun facility in existence. Outside of noncanon endings in his own game, he doesn't. I think its very clear that with geralds own admission he was a bit of vengeful asshole and fucked with his own son's head to get that revenge taking away his autonomy in doing so.

2) Eggman IS a monster generally speaking. Eggman doesn't need memory manipulation. He regularly steals living things to shove them into robots to power them. Ruins the environment and regularly summons gods with flagrant disregard for what they will do to people in attempts to take over the worlds(s). He pissed on the moon for god sakes, who even does that?! Seriously though this is a guy who under every opportunity under his own normally functioning non programmed mental faculties. Decides to inact plans to be a dictator  , the last game was literally him doing the thing he wanted and taking over the world so hard that it was a resistance scenario. Eggman does not care about your petty morality and is willing to murder, steal , enslave and often all three to get to his end goal. Eggman is a monster.

The thing is  you aren't supposed to think about eggman like that. Yes eggman can very easily be a hammer over the head representation of " dictators are bad, Pollution is bad , fight the power", however he's a very cartoonish representation of that. You aren't supposed to think of him think of him that seriously especially with his game interpretations. He's either cartoonishly evil in classic games whipping out death stars or giant robots with his visage. Or in the modern games a goofball who seems evil but doesn't really have the follow through or the ability to plan ahead to make those plans mean something. He is often outsmarted by his help, or summons or creations or what have you because its supposed to reinforce he's kind of a goofball. Eggman is the character you are supposed to take the LEAST seriously. Everytime eggman is on the screen you expect him to screw up and he often does. You are not supposed to actually think about his actions seriously because when you do , you go " this guy is a dictator " . Its a collective ludonarrative dissonance that we as an audience have decided to go with because we like the characters place in the narrative. Its like Team Rocket , they work for a mob/terrorist organization that steals pokemon and are willing to at least leave people in deadly situations whilst doing so if not try and kill them. But you don't think about that shit because its jessie and james. Prepare for trouble, and make it double. There are other more serious characters for that , they are goofballs that are occasionally a bit more serious when the story needs it and less so when it doesn't.

When sonic or the comic itself starts calling eggman's morality into question, it makes the reader and more so the series have to think about what eggman is. And that's a dictator. I'm not saying shadow is perfect either, he ain't. While yes I do think shadow wasn't under normal mental faculties in SA2, do I think he feels that bad for some of  it? Nope. The most casualties that happened were on a GUN base. He's probably more than fine with that innocents were deffo on that base. And while I think the true ending of shadow's game implied to true path, Shadow probably killed some gun soilders on the way to that true good ending, you think they stopped shooting at him when he showed his " I'm doing the good route card " nah he defended himself. Shadow is a guy in this scenario willing to kill for the greater good, while I like shadow I think in most cases that mentality kinda starts off on the negative end of the morality spectrum. He is by no means an angel. But to compare him to a dictator... no that's not it. That speaks ill of the person who makes that comparison. On many levels.

I don't think there is an inherent moral difference here. That's like saying I dunno eggman found a gun and decided to rob a store vs He made a gun and decided to rob a store. Yes one has a bit more agency in that the intent is there to learn how to make a gun, but he made an active decision to do so. One just requires a bit less work on his end. Work smart not hard.

I would say so, not just because of all the stuff I said.

But also , asshole thing to do. The suggestion is that shadow, when he was being abused and manipulated by his creator from beyond the grave is the same as a dictator. While again I don't think shadow feels that bad a gun base got blown up, he probably feels kinda shitty he almost did the one thing his best friend didn't want him to do because his creator abused him and messed with his head. And to use that as a moral comparison point on the part of sonic is fucking gross to be blunt. And speaks to how little of an argument those writing sonic actually had when this was made. Its like if during the argument that shadow and knuckles had whilst fighting in the archie comics, shadow instead of suggesting knuckles find a new path, said the emerald is why his family is dead and if he follows their path he will die too. While yes in both scenarios there might be a kernel of truth, like "If you play judge jury and executioner too much every problems looks like a guillotine" and maybe "blindy following traditions can lead to your own demise."  Both parties both in the real scenario and in the hypothetical one aren't doing the thing enough or aren't " fallen " enough to warrant that talk. Shadow wasn't some guy killing everyone he ran across if he did forces wouldn't have happened. He was a guy willing to do something that due to the comic now evoking canon with eggman's deeds is kinda justified in this willingness to do the thing.

So in this scenario it isn't sonic calling out some character flaw, its sonic being emotionally manipulative with a subjective sensitive to shadow in one of the worst ways possible. Sonic wasn't being sonic in that scene, he was scourge. He was a manipulative douche and it might have actually been better for him to bring up maria because at least that would have been an appeal to shadow's inherent sense of right and justice rather than comparing his issues with his " father " to that of a willing fascist. He doesn't want to wish harm on his worst enemies, but emotionally manipulating a guy who you consider a hero as well? That's above board?

I like Ian Flynn , I hope he writes TV and movies and shit some day. But IMO this was a bad call, and his continued desires to make eggman some super serious character that can be called into moral question continues to open up the dialog of " Why don't they kill the dictator" . When the characters a dictator that's kinda hard question to deny, but when its about a guy who's lost his memories? That's an easier moral ground to tread. And a more interesting one for this series.

See, this right here is why I can't take your stance seriously at all.  This paragraph here is way more gross than anything you're claiming Sonic has done in this issue, and requires the most disingenuous interpretation of the events to get this point across.  

Yes, I can say memory manipulation or not because as I said, Shadow still chose to carry out the "blow the world up" plan. He had no moral compunctions against it, he never stopped to think "Wow, this is a messed up plan. I can't do this" and his change of heart did not come from within himself as a character, but because of what someone else told him. Shadow himself even makes a point of telling Sonic in this very comic that having amnesia doesn't make a person any less dangerous, obviously alluding to himself. If Shadow himself can make that point, I don't get how you could miss that.

You've made it rather clear that you're a vocal critic on how this comic has treated Shadow in relation to Sonic, and I'm not going to dispute that. But I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I feel your interpretation of these events are intentionally in bad faith and require reading the worst possible case of the scenario to justify your point. That's the only way I can understand how you can interpret Sonic not wanting someone to be murdered in cold blood, and trying to talk down the person doing it who was in a similar circumstance as Sonic emotionally manipulating him and comparing him to his evil doppelganger who was an actual dictator.

 

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While I'm interjecting with points of contention regarding Espio and Eggman, it's also worth noting that Sonic himself has shown minimal concern with potentially killing the Doctor while stopping his plans. He doesn't gun for him(er, that one line from Heroes aside) or see it as an ideal result to achieve, but he'll certainly bop his Eggmobile into a bottomless pit, destroy a giant Robot/Mech with him still in it(even stranding him in water/lava/space/rifts), or in the case of Lost World, remove the exhaust hose of his jetpack on a floating continent.

People forget that he's something of an antihero himself.

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33 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Nobody goes after Eggman. Aside from Shadow this once despite teaming up with him in the past. That's why it's so weird.

Pretty much. Only Espio have been for outright killing him and he doesn't actually press the issue, much less find himself in a position to do so anyway.

Everyone else just stops his world domination plans(Sonic, Tails), fights him when he gets in the way(Amy, Chaotix, Blaze), tolerate him to help their own agenda(Shadow, Rouge, Zavok), or wish he'd not be a bad guy before having to punch him in the face(Knuckles, Cream, Big).

EDIT: Forgot about Omega. 🤦‍♂️

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48 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

See, this right here is why I can't take your stance seriously at all.  This paragraph here is way more gross than anything you're claiming Sonic has done in this issue, and requires the most disingenuous interpretation of the events to get this point across.  

 

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Yes, I can say memory manipulation or not because as I said, Shadow still chose to carry out the "blow the world up" plan. He had no moral compunctions against it, he never stopped to think "Wow, this is a messed up plan. I can't do this" and his change of heart did not come from within himself as a character, but because of what someone else told him. Shadow himself even makes a point of telling Sonic in this very comic that having amnesia doesn't make a person any less dangerous, obviously alluding to himself. If Shadow himself can make that point, I don't get how you could miss that.

So here right. I want to make this very clear, i'm not making a moral judgement on your person. But this is my belief system, and in this scenario I think you have missed the point. Or rather have confused two different ones. So my belief is this and shadow's ENTIRE NARRATIVE is this. People are not born good or bad. Experiences make them good or bad. That's shadow's entire deal. Every single thing about his creation what happened to him , who's he's related to , why he exists should point him into being the bad guy. But hes not really. And in that scenario in SA2 , shadow had the experiences to make him good removed or altered to make him in a more violent malicious way. That's kinda the whole point of that narrative is that gerald was trying to define who he was, but the family he chose won out. He remembered, and those experiences are what inspire him to do good yeah someone " told him " your mom or dad, uncle whoever told you to not be a dick. But that experience problably helps you not be a dick and that doesn't invalidate your chose to do so because that wasn't an idea you had when you are born. You learn  and grow, that what' brings me to my other points you missed.

Part of the other part of the story is shadow has no context for what the earth is, who's on it why is it  a thing, not just because he had his memory manipulated is just a foreign thing. He doesn't have the memories telling him to go to and protect it , his a giant or rather 3 foot 3 ball of anger  who's memories are telling him to blow up the planet. With those that would get him to stop removed. Shadow's like a week old outside of the pod canonically. He is an experiment he knows very little and what he does know was manipulated so he only remembered "that's the place the bad people came from that took my sister away ".  Like to compare that to fully grown ass man who set out from jump " I'm gonna take over the world " is weird to me man.

Shadow wasn't born shadow, his experiences make him shadow. And those experiences were removed to make him carry out some shit he may not have agreed with otherwise.

To compare that to eggman , a guy who just actually decides to be a dictator on the reg. Who is like at least 50 years with experiences and choices made to make him who he was. Speaks more about sonic in this scenario than not. Whether it be lack of worldly understanding, fence sitting apathy  , or some form of active maliciousness. Its not a good look

If you think people are born a way morally, that's cool. Do you. But We have to at that point end this conversation because that in itself is a philosophical argument I do not think is fit for the thread.

Quote

You've made it rather clear that you're a vocal critic on how this comic has treated Shadow in relation to Sonic, and I'm not going to dispute that. But I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I feel your interpretation of these events are intentionally in bad faith and require reading the worst possible case of the scenario to justify your point. That's the only way I can understand how you can interpret Sonic not wanting someone to be murdered in cold blood, and trying to talk down the person doing it who was in a similar circumstance as Sonic emotionally manipulating him and comparing him to his evil doppelganger who was an actual dictator.

 

I'm not arguing in bad faith. My argument is that it shouldn't be argued in any faith. Eggman is a character who in no circumstances should be taken that seriously. And in evoking the narrative of whether he should die or not calls into questions his actions. When you look at his actions, he's a murderous dictator. Even though I think the premise is flawed, if sonic would have kept it to memory stuff. He could be talking down shadow. As soon as he started making arguments about " He helps " then sonic is trying to justify his actions. Sonic's argument should have never been trying to justify eggman's previous actions more so what new experiences could make eggman or tinker at the time a better person in future. His arguments were " Those things in the past were bad but sometimes he helps so that makes it cool " and then its " Well you did a bad thing once, aren't you as bad as he is " and if this was a normal person or even another shadow, sure. When its a dictator that gives this entire conversation a different context it wasn't ever meant to have.

I think you may have misinterpreted the source of my disdain on this and to be fair to you and other's in this thread, my conduct has been shadow focused to say the least. I think that's fair to say, heck it started this conversation. But my biggest issue with that issue, isn't shadow's lack of agency or him being written like a plot device. I got issues with that, I do , but they aren't my biggest ones. Its sonic. One sonic should never be having to argue this in the first place. But two, sonic should never been trying to brush away the things eggman has done. Sonic comes off in this book like a manipulative douche , and a guy who "both sided" a dictator.

I don't think i'm arguing in bad faith, i'm kind of just reading the book. Even if you want to read sonic's actions in the best light possible, he's still being a manipulative jerk. He is still bothsiding a dictator . He's doing it for a reason that's naive and stupid what he thinks is good. That's the best read. That's my read. But even in that, its still not good look.

Like how else do you read that? After the story envokes eggman's past which paints him as a dictator. Sonic then trying to justify his action and then compares shadow to eggman? How else do you read that?

That's why you don't write that story, because there's no other way to read that. Its weird an inappropriate among many other things,

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much. Only Espio have been for outright killing him and he doesn't actually press the issue, much less find himself in a position to do so anyway.

 

You mean Omega? Yeah, even he was fine with letting Eggman go in Heroes and 06.

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11 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

You mean Omega? Yeah, even he was fine with letting Eggman go in Heroes and 06.

Oh shit, I forgot about Omega! :joy: Man, how did I fuck that up?

I mean, his motivation is basically wounded pride and destruction is what he's built for, but yeah. I honestly don't know what to even say about him beyond Eggman himself being luckily overlooked due to bigger threats or Omega literally only wanting to prove himself.

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Honestly, I think it's kinda silly to try to reconcile the "Saturday Morning Cartoon" Eggman and the "Dictator" Robotnik as seen in the Western spins. Yeah, even in the Adventure games we saw he was fine with mass death of humans but we never actually saw him get that far and he was banished from the plot by getting blasted away by Chaos. It's okay for Sonic to not be proactive about making sure he doesn't kill anybody since it's just that kind of world.

Also, I'm thinking that part of what led to the games having characters like Chaos or Erazor Djinn is that they can commit on-screen massacres and be either killed outright or at least dealt with in a more permanent way than what happens to Eggman.

2nding the call for finally moving on from Forces.

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22 minutes ago, Almar said:

Honestly, I think it's kinda silly to try to reconcile the "Saturday Morning Cartoon" Eggman and the "Dictator" Robotnik as seen in the Western spins. Yeah, even in the Adventure games we saw he was fine with mass death of humans but we never actually saw him get that far and he was banished from the plot by getting blasted away by Chaos. It's okay for Sonic to not be proactive about making sure he doesn't kill anybody since it's just that kind of world.

That very much is the thing, isn't it?

The Adventures is both a case of the magic trick the comics tend to break and Early Installment Weirdness. The latter because he is portrayed as a lot more menacing, destructive, and even a little psychotic than he is anywhere else in the games(until Forces & to an extent Colors anyway). Yet the former kicks in in that its just a part of the tonal stakes that until Tails story can be summed up as somewhere between "I'm gonna tear down the neighborhood and build a strip mall with a statue of myself" and "look at my battleship make things go boom."

People getting killed isn't the goal or focus compared to the action-based spectacle of the city itself being paved over--until he, again, calls in a missile strike, goes to detonate it by hand, and then declares he's gonna take his seething anger out of the people. 

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Also, I'm thinking that part of what led to the games having characters like Chaos or Erazor Djinn is that they can commit on-screen massacres and be either killed outright or at least dealt with in a more permanent way than what happens to Eggman.

2nding the call for finally moving on from Forces.

Pretty much.

That and they wanted to tell more ambitious, complicated, and intense stories than the Classic Games were able to. And since the villain often makes the plot, most of the Dreamcast and early Modern era relied on other villains with dark mysteries and fearsome presences to carry that. Chaos is an oddball of a middleground on that, but the point still stood with Rouge and the Babylon Rogues being the exceptions for the most part.

Eggman himself was almost always involved, but never the big worldending threat in the end.

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Just read the full issue online.

 

Spoiler

 It was good. The D6 were cool, Eggman put Starline in his place, and we finally got a conclusion to Silver. But here's my problem.

Big got infected offscreen. It's no secret that he's my fave character, so seeing him be an afterthought like this is bad, and waiting 25 issues and two years to see my favorite character and it's not even him is bad. I might be overreacting, but whi knows. 

 

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8 hours ago, StaticMania said:

I wouldn't compare Shadow to that...because outside of the stupidity in hindsight, it would imply that Shadow's random ego and boasting was at all justified for any reason.

 

It... doesn't? I'm comparing Vegeta stroking himself throughout most of that storyline and constantly having the pecking order beat back into him (in particular where he let Cell power up) to Shadow acting tough and screeching about how he doesn't run and continuing to touch things that infect organic life that turns him into a zombie too.

I'm not understanding what you're talking about.

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