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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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10 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Aren't they the same? :lol:

Not really. The Sonic games before Forces have been careful to not have him do anything that would mean him not being in prison or dead breaks the wall of disbelief too hard. Even in something like SatAM he's not shown racking up a notable bodycount. Hence introducing villains like Chaos or Black Doom who can be killed or otherwise get a final ending that removes them as a threat.

This goes differently in comics but they either have Eggman in a position of power and influence where Sonic can't touch him or lock him up, or even kill him.

 

35 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Which is all fine and dandy. Firing a nuke into downtown station square is perfectly acceptable because the unspeakable devastation it will cause happens off screen.

Its one thing to hand-wave the lack of casualties due to Chaos flooding a city, or Eggman blowing up the planet to set Dark Gaia free, but lets not act like Game-Eggman doesn't have a body count and/or the ability to rack one up too. Sonic specifically accuses him of plotting Genocide at one point in Lost World. That's not a word you throw around unless you think someone is capable of that kind of bloodshed.

The missile he launched just comically crashed with no big boom. Even made the splatting sound.

The point is that Sega of Japan/Team Naka's Eggman is a Japanese Saturday Morning Cartoon villain ala Team Rocket. Even something like blowing up Prison Island can be waved off as G.U.N. being shown as corrupt so Eggman doesn't become irredeemable by doing so. Trying to reconcile this with how the Big Egg's been established to be in Western interpretations falls apart since there's the obvious problem of how he hasn't been killed or imprisoned yet and how this current arc will end without him getting either.

 

 

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The full extent of Eggman's actions are never fully explored in the games to maintain the lighthearted atmosphere. Even his "serious" portrayals like SA2 never steer that far, and he's comically hammy and over the top.

 

It's only in the West when he gets portrayed as a genocidal dictator, and he's treated as a far bigger threat. 

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6 hours ago, Almar said:

Not really. The Sonic games before Forces have been careful to not have him do anything that would mean him not being in prison or dead breaks the wall of disbelief too hard. Even in something like SatAM he's not shown racking up a notable bodycount. .

 

 

The joke is SatAM stands for Saturday Morning.

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8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The full extent of Eggman's actions are never fully explored in the games to maintain the lighthearted atmosphere. Even his "serious" portrayals like SA2 never steer that far, and he's comically hammy and over the top.

 

It's only in the West when he gets portrayed as a genocidal dictator, and he's treated as a far bigger threat. 

And honestly eventhough he's not normally portrayed as a dictator in the games when you think about the stuff he's done it's pretty messed up.

It always confuses me that people don't count the things he's done as threatening or scary just because jokes are made.

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

And honestly eventhough he's not normally portrayed as a dictator in the games when you think about the stuff he's done it's pretty messed up.

It always confuses me that people don't count the things he's done as threatening or scary just because jokes are made.

Maybe because the games usually don't take it as seriously or address it.

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4 hours ago, SBR2 said:

And honestly eventhough he's not normally portrayed as a dictator in the games when you think about the stuff he's done it's pretty messed up.

It always confuses me that people don't count the things he's done as threatening or scary just because jokes are made.

Because you're not supposed to think about the stuff he's done. You care when he has a gun to Amy's head, but no one really cares about the realistic affects blowing up the moon should have had.

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How are we not suppose to think about the stuff he’s done when he does it onscreen?

That’s stretching a little too far.

Him blowing up the moon was portrayed just as serious as him holding a gun to Amy’s head in the same game—they both showed he has a means of taking innocent lives if his demands are not, and all he really needs is a reason. It’s all about either stopping him or at the very least not giving him a reason to carry his threats out.

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're not supposed to overthink it. Take the game's tone at its word, don't assume the existence of bodies that are never seen or referenced in any way.

That’s not even overthinking. Regardless of if we’re shown bodies or not. He doesn’t have to show someone dead for us to know what holding people at gunpoint or a moon-shattering laser can imply.

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Implications are one thing, but they never actually lead where they could, because this isn't the kind of series where the villain is going to shoot a 12 year old in the head. Eggman's a bad guy, he does bad things that, in the real world, would lead to people being killed, but he gets stopped before that happens, because this is a series about colorful superpowered funny animals, not a gritty drama.

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11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Implications are one thing, but they never actually lead where they could, because this isn't the kind of series where the villain is going to shoot a 12 year old in the head. Eggman's a bad guy, he does bad things that, in the real world, would lead to people being killed, but he gets stopped before that happens, because this is a series about colorful superpowered funny animals, not a gritty drama.

No, the implications don’t lead to where they could because the whole point stopping it before it does and with consequences on the rare instances they do, not because of what series this is—we just had a movie of this series literally a few days ago where something like that happens to said character’s mother figure before their eyes and it winds up heavily implied she’s not alive.

That is no longer an excuse. We’re not saying it should go the realms of, for instance, Tom Clancy’s tone in terms of killing people—you’ve known this for years and we need to stop acting like that’s the series we’re wanting to revel in (much less one with a comic that’s undergoing zombie apocalypse that is anything but bright and sunshine).

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1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

No, the implications don’t lead to where they could because the whole point stopping it before it does, not because of what series this is

Right the point is that they stop it before it happens, that's the point of the series, that the heroes win and save everyone (that isn't an evil monster) pretty much all the time.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

—we just had a movie of this series literally a few days ago where something like that happens to said character’s mother figure before their eyes and it winds up heavily implied she’s not alive.

That is no longer an excuse.

What happens in one continuity does not necessarily apply to other continuities. And my point is not that no character is ever allowed to die in Sonic, but that the realistic outcomes of these kinds of actions do not necessarily apply because this is an un-real series that deliberately avoids those kinds of tragic outcomes.

Spoiler

Looks like we don't even see what happens to owl mom anyway so who knows if she's actually dead.

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Right the point is that they stop it before it happens, that's the point of the series, that the heroes win and save everyone (that isn't an evil monster) pretty much all the time.

In addition to consequences when they fail, which can lead to things like the loss of loved ones to a plague.

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What happens in one continuity does not necessarily apply to other continuities. And my point is not that no character is ever allowed to die in Sonic, but that the realistic outcomes of these kinds of actions do not necessarily apply because this is an un-real series that deliberately avoids those kinds of tragic outcomes.

 

And that just isn’t true. Being an un-real series doesn’t mean they deliberately avoid it. That’s entirely based on whether they’re willing to go through with the act or not and explore the tragic outcomes—the entire reason why conflict (and thus the overall story) exists in the first place.

We’ve seen this in the Lion King (twice), and that’s an un-real series. So again, that’s not an excuse.

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3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

In addition to consequences when they fail, which can lead to things like the loss of loved ones to a plague.

Literally everybody is going to be back to flesh and blood by the end of this arc.

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

And that just isn’t true. Being an un-real series doesn’t mean they deliberately avoid it.

But this is the kind of un-real series that has avoided it, far more often than not. Blow a chunk out of the moon and then immediately forget about it because it doesn't affect anything. "All's well that ends well", as they stand in the flooded ruins of a city.

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57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Literally everybody is going to be back to flesh and blood by the end of this arc.

Okay? Everyone knows that. That doesn’t mean the heroes always win (flawlessly at least).

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But this is the kind of un-real series that has avoided it, far more often than not. Blow a chunk out of the moon and then immediately forget about it because it doesn't affect anything. "All's well that ends well", as they stand in the flooded ruins of a city.

No it is not, and you know it.

This series has had characters die, or make heavy implications they may have died—Shadow’s sacrifice being one before actually turning out alive, E-102 Gamma being another, Maria, The Duke of Soleanna, even Sonic himself. And the tragic consequences of those are often explored, so this series in fact does not avoid it.

The fact that I even have to list this is telling. You blow a chunk out of the moon and keep in mind Eggman is holding the world hostage, “All’s well that ends well,” as they stand before a flooded city because far worse would’ve happened if nothing was done to stop the cause that wrecked it.

EDIT: Typing on phone can be ass...

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Again, my point is not that no characters are ever allowed to die. It's that you should not act like the worst possible outcomes of the villain's actions were ever seriously on the table. Eggman was never actually going to get to laze entire countries off the map in SA2. This isn't the kind of series that would do that kind of massacre. You're not supposed to look at that and seriously consider the staggering loss of life, the enormity of the tragedy, that would occur if it happened in real life; you're supposed to take it as the over-the-top doomed-to-fail supervillain plan that it is. Eggman isn't a horrifying monster, he's a clown.

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18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Again, my point is not that no characters are ever allowed to die. It's that you should not act like the worst possible outcomes of the villain's actions were ever seriously on the table. Eggman was never actually going to get to laze entire countries off the map in SA2. This isn't the kind of series that would do that kind of massacre. You're not supposed to look at that and seriously consider the staggering loss of life, the enormity of the tragedy, that would occur if it happened in real life; you're supposed to take it as the over-the-top doomed-to-fail supervillain plan that it is. Eggman isn't a horrifying monster, he's a clown.

I made my edit because my phone deleted a few paragraphs in a refresh, but the outcomes of the villain’s actions are on the table because he made a show of force showing what he’ll do. He’s literally holding guns to people, threatening lives, causing wars, launching missiles, and wrecking cities no differently than any other villain before or after him, and the series makes it threatening enough that you should know he needs to be stopped by any means necessary.

So, Eggman being a clown doesn’t make him less of a horrifying monster—hell, there are other fictional actual clowns that are leagues more terrifying (I.e. the Joker). It doesn’t matter if he’s laughing mad or looks silly doing—this guy is holding people hostage and blowing up moons and planets. That is a dangerous threat only a sociopath would do, even if fictional, and the story makes it clear enough. Period.

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28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Implications are one thing, but they never actually lead where they could, because this isn't the kind of series where the villain is going to shoot a 12 year old in the head. Eggman's a bad guy, he does bad things that, in the real world, would lead to people being killed, but he gets stopped before that happens, because this is a series about colorful superpowered funny animals, not a gritty drama.

Well it wasn't the head but... i mean....maria...

While I disagree with your notion that actually having consequences is some how a gritty drama, even if those consequences are grim. I do agree with the notion that has been posted in the thread when it comes to eggman, you take it at face value. He's team rocket, if you look at them plainly they work for a pokemon trafficking ring run by an international criminal organization and often use somewhat leathal means to do that trafficking. However, you are not supposed to look at them like that, they are funny goof balls who try to steal pokemon and fail. And eggman is a crazy funny doctor that tries to take over the world, and fails. The other villians, government organizations, extra dimensional gods ect, can be that serious sinister enemy that is desired. But eggman himself isn't to be taken seriously really. 

And it says a lot that at least my anecdotal experience, the most interesting eggman stuff  to people in this arc is him being so incompetent about the situation and not thinking ahead. Yelling about how he could beat that blasted hedgehog a while ago but he wants to one up him. Eggman himself is not serious , and never really does take the situation that seriously. This is opposition of the eggman morality plotline about whether he should have lived or died, which funnily enough died itself. While that isn't the sole fault of anyone writing, I do think people just don't find that question about eggman interesting.

And i'm not trying to say something about people who feel a way about eggman. Your opinions are very valid and your views on this weird series we like are too. But I feel as though much like the people who insist he be called robotnik are stuck on weird contradictory marketing of  a character that hasn't been relevant since the 90's, and its 2020. While i'm the number one guy of " hey this series can do serious things sometimes " maybe taking the funny doctor at face value is how he was intended to be taken and how narratives work best

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The series presents larger than life stakes and how much you read into those stakes is down to the consumer. There's no "right" way to read these things. Creatives are counting at least some people buying entirely into the conflict and being immersed, regardless of what more seasoned people who are aware of the strings on the puppets think.

TLDR: This is an argument about nothing. Some can get immersed in kids franchise storytelling and some can't. I personally largely can't read much into Eggman's threats these days. The franchise would have to mature a lot more before I could.

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

While I disagree with your notion that actually having consequences is some how a gritty drama,

Not what I actually said.

I'm tired of going in circles on this subject so, whatever, I'm out.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

How are we not suppose to think about the stuff he’s done when he does it onscreen?

That’s stretching a little too far.

Him blowing up the moon was portrayed just as serious as him holding a gun to Amy’s head in the same game—they both showed he has a means of taking innocent lives if his demands are not, and all he really needs is a reason. It’s all about either stopping him or at the very least not giving him a reason to carry his threats out.

Ignoring the whole "the moon turned around lmao" thing Izuka tried to tell us, the reason him blowing up the moon isn't serious is because nothing happens. It's Eggman flexing so the president can take him seriously, but nothing comes of it. The tides don't change and everybody doesn't drown, Eggman doesn't even get any comeuppance at the end of the game, and we aren't told of anyone dying offscreen.

Him shooting Amy obviously wasn't going to happen, but it's more tangible because Amy's an actual character we know and care about. Him threatening to burn down the Lost Hex and strangle the D6 works because we've been dealing with them for the whole game. Blowing up objects and boasting, less so. 

Aside from forces, with its whole "80% of our troops got wiped out" thing which should be Knuckle's fault anyway, there's not a lot of onscreen blood on Eggman's hands. 

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22 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Ignoring the whole "the moon turned around lmao" thing Izuka tried to tell us, the reason him blowing up the moon isn't serious is because nothing happens. It's Eggman flexing so the president can take him seriously, but nothing comes of it. The tides don't change and everybody doesn't drown, Eggman doesn't even get any comeuppance at the end of the game, and we aren't told of anyone dying offscreen.

That’s because the thing was a show of force. It was either the moon or the planet, and the moon happened to be a better demonstration because it showed that this guy is evil enough to destroy something, yet ironically polite enough not to kill anyone yet (and whether he would fire it at the world or not is debatable considering he tried to do that  the moment he got the last Emerald, only to get locked out by a fail-safe program designed to do something else.)

Basically, Hostage Taking 101, with the extra credit being the whole planet as the hostage.

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Him shooting Amy obviously wasn't going to happen, but it's more tangible because Amy's an actual character we know and care about. Him threatening to burn down the Lost Hex and strangle the D6 works because we've been dealing with them for the whole game. Blowing up objects and boasting, less so. 

Aside from forces, with its whole "80% of our troops got wiped out" thing which should be Knuckle's fault anyway, there's not a lot of onscreen blood on Eggman's hands. 

No one’s denying that he hasn’t had any onscreen blood. But the fact remains that this guy makes serious threats and is a danger to peoples lives to get what he wants. Every means he has tried has involved the use of violence—over-the-top violence, yes, but violence nonetheless that is not always treated the same way as what you’d get from Looney Tunes given that there’s a more implied sense of there being a high risk of lives lost if carried out—it’s not always silliness with this guy, and it’s for that reason he’s taken seriously enough as more of a threat than a joke, even if Sonic wisecracks to his face. And even then, we can still find the guy silly and a threat worth taking seriously at the same time. Hell, even Sonic does when the stakes are high enough.

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6 hours ago, Razule said:

Maybe because the games usually don't take it as seriously or address it.

I don't buy that. I'm sorry everyone claims this but Colors and Lost World both have moments showing Sonic on particular reacting to the major circumstances of Eggman's actions (his anger at the Wisps having their energy sucked out and that moment with him trying to contact anyone on the surface after the Deadly Six sucked out all the planets energy) and Forces is literally all about people taking Eggman's plans seriously because he, y'know, won.

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It's less a matter of "This comical villain can't be a legitimate threat sometimes" and much more of "our perennial bad guy generally shouldn't have a body count in the hundreds."

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Well it wasn't the head but... i mean....maria...

 

Pfft, I was tempted to say something myself :joy:

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As mentioned, this is a pointless and circular argument. How much of a threat Eggman's actions are depends entirely on how much your willing suspension of disbelief is able to see through his actions.

 

That being said, the games never call much attention to what he does unless it's specifically relevant to the plot. Eggman pointing a gun to Amy is a big deal because she's a major character that we don't want to see hurt and she's being used as a hostage against Sonic.

The implications behind Eggman blowing up the moon or blowing up the planet are irrelevant because that's not what the plot is about. 

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