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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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29 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

That and I love how Zavok makes a villain speech in every issue he appears in lol, he's so inspiring.

I don’t know why but now I gotta draw Zavok as Thanos XD

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28 minutes ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

I think I have a problem... I'm falling in love with the Deadly Six, somehow. Must be the Ian Flynn effect.

You're actually seeing them terrorize and threaten people, something that only happened in the game's intro.

Also, you actually have them fighting the other characters and thus giving them chances to shine.

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IMO I agree they were filler trash in the second crossover, but here, they actually took (almost) full advantage of the situation by using their powers in a way that MAKES SENSE, making them look like winning antagonists for once, powered them up with some of the most precious mcguffins in the Sonic franchise, and made them appear at least more of a threat and not a joke like in Lost World (I still blame Pontaff's writing for that).

I mean, they had a few neat moments on the side, but they're definitely the major antagonism here.

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I think they are even better when taken together, that is their strenght, so splitting them up will probably be their undoing, I dunno, they are simply more interesting together, with their interactions... those should be explored in my opinion.

They are a team, after all. Whereas they're gimmicky and mostly onenote on their own, together they're sometimes a hoot and even foreboding.

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That and I love how Zavok makes a villain speech in every issue he appears in lol, he's so inspiring.

Thought that was getting a little repetitive admittedly, but yeah.

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I'm actually really disappointed with how the Deadly Six were handled in Worlds Unite, because additional material used them effectively, and actually still had their personalities in-tact. I will never forget how absolutely brutal it was when Zik used his control over robots to literally force Rock into blasting his head off with his own buster. Zik himself even says just a smidge more power and he would've irreparably destroyed Mega Man altogether. Worlds Unite Battles really set them up as good threats and still let their personalities shine...

...and then Worlds Unite Part 2 happens and they're completely lame and just used as brainwashed mooks who then forcefully take control of Mega Man's side of allies to force a fight between Sonic and Mega Man that was done infinitely better in Worlds Collide, not helped by weak as hell art.

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6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm actually really disappointed with how the Deadly Six were handled in Worlds Unite, because additional material used them effectively, and actually still had their personalities in-tact. I will never forget how absolutely brutal it was when Zik used his control over robots to literally force Rock into blasting his head off with his own buster. Zik himself even says just a smidge more power and he would've irreparably destroyed Mega Man altogether. Worlds Unite Battles really set them up as good threats and still let their personalities shine...

True dat.

Although seeing Zavok lose his shit was bizarre.

6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

...and then Worlds Unite Part 2 happens and they're completely lame and just used as brainwashed mooks who then forcefully take control of Mega Man's side of allies to force a fight between Sonic and Mega Man that was done infinitely better in Worlds Collide, not helped by weak as hell art.

Yeah, the only things I remember of them there is Zazz suggesting they control Nicole into nosediving the Sky Patrol, Zavok pointing out exactly why that's stupid, and then him professing to Sally that he'd rather die fighting than surrender to them.

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

Oh damn

Folks weren't reading mm?

While Archie Mega Man was good from the start, I think it's arguable that it didn't really get going until possibly Blackout. Spiritus Ex Machina marked the time the series really began getting it's footing, but before that, the first twelve issues were criticised for being a bit of a rushjob of Mega Man 1-2's plots, where similar to Universe's arcs, they crammed too much into four issues. In particular, people didn't like how easily the robot masters went down.

Personally, I still love the early arcs, and Return of Dr. Wily (the MM2 adaption) is one of my favourite arcs of the whole thing, but that's a bit of an unpopular opinion. After Blackout, Archie Mega Man really began getting a lot of praise for being not only being an extensive and accurate version of the games, but for also trying to tackle complex issues.

Dr. Wily wasn't completely evil in Archie MM, he was someone who had problems which led him down his path, but had standards, and as later shown - truly did have the capability of redemption. Both Worlds Collide and Redemption both showed that, between the lead-in to Wily's bromance break-up with Eggman being that Eggman tried to murder Dr. Light in cold blood, and when he claimed this is what Wily wanted, Wily reveals he wanted Light humbled, and humiliated, not dead.

Redemption showed him having massive doubts going through with his third scheme, having actually enjoyed his time at Light Labs again, and having rekindled a friendship with Dr. Light. But Wily ends up dragged back into it all with the problems that started the series - his ego and vanity forcing him to believe he was being shunned and having his work stolen.

On top of that, Archie Mega Man used the Mega Man 3 arc to really tackle complex issues, especially for a comic aimed at kids - if robots could be classified as slaves or not. Robot masters have their own personalities, their own minds, and yet they're still completely bent to the will of their programming. The Light bots are friendly good guys, and yet when Wily reprograms them, their personality and mind-set forcefully shifts into evil robots. 

The MM3 arc really tackled it by not only pointing out that robots are bent to the wills of the programming they have, but Mega Man's own words fall short because Mega Man technically has a easy directive - be a son, and help out. It's easy to loophole that. The MM2 and MM3 masters have one purpose - combat bots who should destroy Mega Man. When that purpose is gone, and they're freed from that programming constraint, a massive amount of them actively refuse to exist anymore, because they either have to be reprogrammed to have their personalities removed (Quick Man), are too experimental to serve a practical usage outside of warfare (Gemini Man), or have to take demeaning roles that would be humiliating. It really goes into the true morality about robot masters, and the constant steps to move them towards being lifelike. 

Worlds Collide was lucky to be a labour of love that was a brilliant celebration of both Sonic and Mega Man. That love shines throughout the whole thing, and really highlights a lot of what made Archie Mega Man such a strong comic. That's why Worlds Unite failed in it's purpose. It wasn't a labour of love anymore, it was a cash-grab designed to try save several comics, because Archie screwed the pooch hard.

Case in point, Ian's gone on point before in the Bumbleking forums to say that Archie Mega Man was not forced into hiatus due to sales. He said the sales were as strong as ever, and that was not the cause of the ""hiatus"" (cancellation). That's why it's commonly believed that despite not being confirmed - the true reason Boom and Mega Man were screwed over was because Archie messed up so badly with the Kickstarter, and they ended up diverting their cash from MM/Boom to the upcoming rebooted Archie titles. This was also during the time Riverdale was upcoming, so that likely played a factor too.

It's a massive reason why a good few people are bitter about what happened with Archie. The hiatus/cancellation was a full-on rushjob. Giving context, Boom's original finale issue was 11, and we got a solid idea of how rushed it was because it got two solicts once after another, the first simply stating it was the eleventh issue, while the second solict, which came very soon after the first suddenly changed it to "final issue", indicating this was a very, very last minute thing. And it shows, because unlike Archie MM, which at least got something resembling a finale issue, Boom ended on a standard story where Eggman got a gorilla. 

Archie MM is insanely frustrating though, because not only was three issues taken up to deal with Worlds Unite, right at the end of the series, but the final two out of the final three issues were frankly the strongest stories in the entire series. One was about the shutdown of the MM2/3 robot masters who refused to take up new peaceful purposes, and Rock having to deal with the concept of not being able to truly save some robots/people, while the other issue (#54) not only introduced a original robot mistress who looked like she was going to have serious potential as a character (Vesper Woman), but provided one of the best Proto Man stories to date. It seemed like they had one hell of an arc planned for Mega Man 4, only for it to get really screwed over by the eleventh hour.

Honestly, as much as I want to see Lost Hedgehog Tales, I'd be all for seeing Ian discuss what the scrapped plans for Archie MM was.

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26 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It's a massive reason why a good few people are bitter about what happened with Archie. The hiatus/cancellation was a full-on rushjob. Giving context, Boom's original finale issue was 11, and we got a solid idea of how rushed it was because it got two solicts once after another, the first simply stating it was the eleventh issue, while the second solict, which came very soon after the first suddenly changed it to "final issue", indicating this was a very, very last minute thing. And it shows, because unlike Archie MM, which at least got something resembling a finale issue, Boom ended on a standard story where Eggman got a gorilla.

To be totally fair, the Boom comic didn’t really *need* a proper finale.

It wasn’t around long enough to make an impression and the Boom universe was still continuing to exist in the TV series, so there was nothing that needed wrapping up.

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What I'll never understand is how they let world's unite get out the door with such poor art quality. There is no excuse to at least put your best artists on display in a crossover. 

They could have had the best story and writing ever and it still would have sucked without the proper art to back it up. It was doomed before it even had a chance. 

 

Hope those IDW blokes are taking notes

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1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What I'll never understand is how they let world's unite get out the door with such poor art quality. There is no excuse to at least put your best artists on display in a crossover. 

They could have had the best story and writing ever and it still would have sucked without the proper art to back it up. It was doomed before it even had a chance. 

 

Hope those IDW blokes are taking notes

One of Worlds Unites' biggest problems was it was about getting attention, not getting the best talent like Worlds Collide had. WC had three iconic artists from both series working on it, and the only "weak" work was Tracey's, since he wasn't used to drawing MM. Even then, there was a notable improvement as his issues progressed. 

Worlds Unite on the other hand got artists who were guests so they could be advertised more, with only the artist for Act 3 having a ton of experience on the series before. I will go to bat and defend Act 1's art. I think even with the different shading style, the art was really nice, and especially worked well for the fights with M'Egga Man and Sonic Man. Act 2 however is where things just plummet down to insane levels. The art is horrible, the background is bland, the battlefield is barren, the characters are almost always off model, and everything feels stilted and boring. The only consolidation is that the art is excellent come Act 3.

The massive issue to me is Act 1 has good art and storytelling, Act 2 has bad art, and bad storytelling, and Act 3 has fantastic art and horrible storytelling. Where one full part was used solely for two page spreads, and gigantic art-pieces with very little dialogue in between. This being a milestone issue for Sonic on top of it. Act 3 in general fails because everything feels completely meaningless. It can basically be described as "heroes fight, and fail over and over again, while Sigma mocks them. Then Xander rewrites the timeline so it never happened". 

Hell, Xander is one of the worst things of the entire arc. He goes from a decent villain from Archie Mega Man to an infuriating Creator's Pet in the span of 12 issues.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh damn

Folks weren't reading mm?

I mean it might be mean of me to say but if the Bumbleking days taught me anything it's that if Ian isn't writing Sonic most people don't care.

The New Crusaders and TMNT forums in it's last few days were basically dead.

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What I'll never understand is how they let world's unite get out the door with such poor art quality

Someday I'm going to have to accept I'm one of the few who actually liked Dan Schoening's art.

I can kinda get the problem with Edwin Huang but I don't get what's so bad about Dan and Louis' stuff.

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I liked Dan's art, too, but mostly because I love his work on stuff like the Ghostbusters comics and it's always neat to see his style applied to more franchises. I wish he could've done the entire first part rather than having to split with Tracy, as I would've loved more actiony stuff from him.

Edwin Huang was definitely the weakest link with the most issues in regards to the Sonic characters and backgrounds in particular, but I kinda get why they went for him. He drew for the Street Fighter comics and they wanted to make it a cute little pseudo-crossover with said comics since the franchise entered the fray with the second chapter. They just didn't consider his versatility with the bread and butter of said crossover at the time and it really showed. Street Fighter characters looked great, though. (As messy as Worlds Unite is, I still absolutely love that scene where Ryu's Hadoken flies in out of nowhere, everyone looks for the source, and then you get the big introduction page with "FROM THE WORLD OF STREET FIGHTER" with all the characters. Certain artistic issues aside, that was a well done moment.)

Nothing to comment on about Tyson Hesse's contribution. He was fantastic as always and a great choice to at least end WU on a great artistic note after Ben Bates did the same with WC. (I'm STILL cheesed that his part was the one that never got a trade out before the comic was canned.)

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2 minutes ago, Armored CC14 said:

I liked Dan's art, too, but mostly because I love his work on stuff like the Ghostbusters comics and it's always neat to see his style applied to more franchises. I wish he could've done the entire first part rather than having to split with Tracy, as I would've loved more actiony stuff from him.

Edwin Huang was definitely the weakest link with the most issues in regards to the Sonic characters and backgrounds in particular, but I kinda get why they went for him. He drew for the Street Fighter comics and they wanted to make it a cute little pseudo-crossover with said comics since the franchise entered the fray with the second chapter. They just didn't consider his versatility with the bread and butter of said crossover at the time and it really showed. Street Fighter characters looked great, though. (As messy as Worlds Unite is, I still absolutely love that scene where Ryu's Hadoken flies in out of nowhere, everyone looks for the source, and then you get the big introduction page with "FROM THE WORLD OF STREET FIGHTER" with all the characters. Certain artistic issues aside, that was a well done moment.)

Nothing to comment on about Tyson Hesse's contribution. He was fantastic as always and a great choice to at least end WU on a great artistic note after Ben Bates did the same with WC. (I'm STILL cheesed that his part was the one that never got a trade out before the comic was canned.)

Wait, Hesse did Act 3? It's been awhile since I read WU, so I couldn't remember who'd done it, only that whoever it was had experience. Thinking about it though, it makes sense. Some of the expressions he gave the characters fit straight into Mega Drive (especially the horrified expression Super Mega Man has in Issue 12 when Sonic teases him about having too much power or something like that).

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As much as I love Hesse's art, I'm still bitter how bad the story was in Act 3. I'm still baffled to this day that a full issue was literally near-dialogueless, and while the art was stunning for the spreads, the fact it amounts to nothing kills it.

Same complaint for #55 of Mega Man. It's all spreads with just a caption box of Light's reaction to a given MM universe.

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5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

While Archie Mega Man was good from the start, I think it's arguable that it didn't really get going until possibly Blackout. Spiritus Ex Machina marked the time the series really began getting it's footing, but before that, the first twelve issues were criticised for being a bit of a rushjob of Mega Man 1-2's plots, where similar to Universe's arcs, they crammed too much into four issues. In particular, people didn't like how easily the robot masters went down.

Personally, I still love the early arcs, and Return of Dr. Wily (the MM2 adaption) is one of my favourite arcs of the whole thing, but that's a bit of an unpopular opinion. After Blackout, Archie Mega Man really began getting a lot of praise for being not only being an extensive and accurate version of the games, but for also trying to tackle complex issues.

Dr. Wily wasn't completely evil in Archie MM, he was someone who had problems which led him down his path, but had standards, and as later shown - truly did have the capability of redemption. Both Worlds Collide and Redemption both showed that, between the lead-in to Wily's bromance break-up with Eggman being that Eggman tried to murder Dr. Light in cold blood, and when he claimed this is what Wily wanted, Wily reveals he wanted Light humbled, and humiliated, not dead.

Redemption showed him having massive doubts going through with his third scheme, having actually enjoyed his time at Light Labs again, and having rekindled a friendship with Dr. Light. But Wily ends up dragged back into it all with the problems that started the series - his ego and vanity forcing him to believe he was being shunned and having his work stolen.

On top of that, Archie Mega Man used the Mega Man 3 arc to really tackle complex issues, especially for a comic aimed at kids - if robots could be classified as slaves or not. Robot masters have their own personalities, their own minds, and yet they're still completely bent to the will of their programming. The Light bots are friendly good guys, and yet when Wily reprograms them, their personality and mind-set forcefully shifts into evil robots. 

The MM3 arc really tackled it by not only pointing out that robots are bent to the wills of the programming they have, but Mega Man's own words fall short because Mega Man technically has a easy directive - be a son, and help out. It's easy to loophole that. The MM2 and MM3 masters have one purpose - combat bots who should destroy Mega Man. When that purpose is gone, and they're freed from that programming constraint, a massive amount of them actively refuse to exist anymore, because they either have to be reprogrammed to have their personalities removed (Quick Man), are too experimental to serve a practical usage outside of warfare (Gemini Man), or have to take demeaning roles that would be humiliating. It really goes into the true morality about robot masters, and the constant steps to move them towards being lifelike. 

Worlds Collide was lucky to be a labour of love that was a brilliant celebration of both Sonic and Mega Man. That love shines throughout the whole thing, and really highlights a lot of what made Archie Mega Man such a strong comic. That's why Worlds Unite failed in it's purpose. It wasn't a labour of love anymore, it was a cash-grab designed to try save several comics, because Archie screwed the pooch hard.

Case in point, Ian's gone on point before in the Bumbleking forums to say that Archie Mega Man was not forced into hiatus due to sales. He said the sales were as strong as ever, and that was not the cause of the ""hiatus"" (cancellation). That's why it's commonly believed that despite not being confirmed - the true reason Boom and Mega Man were screwed over was because Archie messed up so badly with the Kickstarter, and they ended up diverting their cash from MM/Boom to the upcoming rebooted Archie titles. This was also during the time Riverdale was upcoming, so that likely played a factor too.

It's a massive reason why a good few people are bitter about what happened with Archie. The hiatus/cancellation was a full-on rushjob. Giving context, Boom's original finale issue was 11, and we got a solid idea of how rushed it was because it got two solicts once after another, the first simply stating it was the eleventh issue, while the second solict, which came very soon after the first suddenly changed it to "final issue", indicating this was a very, very last minute thing. And it shows, because unlike Archie MM, which at least got something resembling a finale issue, Boom ended on a standard story where Eggman got a gorilla. 

Archie MM is insanely frustrating though, because not only was three issues taken up to deal with Worlds Unite, right at the end of the series, but the final two out of the final three issues were frankly the strongest stories in the entire series. One was about the shutdown of the MM2/3 robot masters who refused to take up new peaceful purposes, and Rock having to deal with the concept of not being able to truly save some robots/people, while the other issue (#54) not only introduced a original robot mistress who looked like she was going to have serious potential as a character (Vesper Woman), but provided one of the best Proto Man stories to date. It seemed like they had one hell of an arc planned for Mega Man 4, only for it to get really screwed over by the eleventh hour.

Honestly, as much as I want to see Lost Hedgehog Tales, I'd be all for seeing Ian discuss what the scrapped plans for Archie MM was.

 

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I mean it might be mean of me to say but if the Bumbleking days taught me anything it's that if Ian isn't writing Sonic most people don't care.

The New Crusaders and TMNT forums in it's last few days were basically dead.

Someday I'm going to have to accept I'm one of the few who actually liked Dan Schoening's art.

I can kinda get the problem with Edwin Huang but I don't get what's so bad about Dan and Louis' stuff.

So a slow start combined with folks just only interested in sonic?

Huh ok sucks. I thought the book was rad but whatever

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16 hours ago, Armored CC14 said:

I liked Dan's art, too, but mostly because I love his work on stuff like the Ghostbusters comics and it's always neat to see his style applied to more franchises. I wish he could've done the entire first part rather than having to split with Tracy, as I would've loved more actiony stuff from him.

I do kinda understand why Tracy did the middle half. It was moistly because Dan's art is so hyper detailed there was no possible way he could do 4 issues in a row.

16 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

As much as I love Hesse's art, I'm still bitter how bad the story was in Act 3. I'm still baffled to this day that a full issue was literally near-dialogueless, and while the art was stunning for the spreads, the fact it amounts to nothing kills it.

Personally I kinda like part 11. I don't know people always talk about the lack of dialogue but I still think it's a nice fight scene and it has some cool team ups in it.

13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

So a slow start combined with folks just only interested in sonic?

Huh ok sucks. I thought the book was rad but whatever

I will admit that "Nobody caring if it isn't Sonic" is 110% my own biased viewpoint. Mostly cause I'm still bitter about how New Crusaders Dark Tomorrow got canceled before it was even released due to poor sales. I know it's in the Mighty Crusaders trade but I'm still annoyed.

Honestly I love Ian's Sonic work but I would never call it his best work. To me his work on Mega Man, Crusaders, Cosmo and TMNT are honestly all way better examples of his skills as a writer.

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1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

Personally I kinda like part 11. I don't know people always talk about the lack of dialogue but I still think it's a nice fight scene and it has some cool team ups in it.

I don't like it because it's pointless. It's blatant, worthless fan-service. Lovely well-drawn fan-service, but still pointless. The fight scene amounts to literally nothing because Sigma is literally just an invincible villain. Nothing damages him, and anything that does damage him ends up being shrugged off because he's too strong. When even Super Sonic and Super Mega Man are incapable of stopping him, it is bad storytelling

If I'm reading a story like this, I want an actual story, not just 20 pages of well-drawn art that amounts to basically nothing. If Worlds Unite has literally not enough story that it's able to have a full issue have no dialogue, and doesn't push the story forward in any serious or meaningful way, it has failed as a story. 

Worlds Collide also has Part 9, which is the same - a massively well-drawn story involving team-ups, and a huge brawl. But the difference there is that is against all of the robot masters, and they don't just rely on art and only art, the characters are bantering throughout it, and playing off each other. Sonic is mocking the other speed-themed robot masters, Shade Man has taking a liking to Rouge, Tails is trying to deal with the other flying robot masters. There's personality in the fight. There's actual stakes because not only are they on a race for time, but the robot masters are capable of being hurt and taken down. 

In the background, Eggman is constantly putting the pieces together more and more as he realises the truth about all the things going wrong on the Wily Egg, adding additional suspense as we wonder if he'll put two and two together and realise it was Dr. Light who was still working from his cell. 

The difference is Worlds Collide still tells a story and still has meaningful dialogue between the characters. Worlds Unite has a collage of great art pieces with zero personality or substance in the middle of a crossover story that's already packed to the absolute brim, and has little room to breath. In a story where you've brought what must be at least 20 different franchises together, and 16 of them are in the final four issues, you should not be wasting a full part to having nearly no dialogue and nothing moving the plot forward.

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Upon re-reading it, there's more to like about it then I remembered but there's so much wrong about the structure of all three acts that whatever you can glean from it that's good is drowned by how rushed the rest of it is.

I will say that I did enjoy the part of Issue 11 where Sigma was wrecking everyone's shit but I feel like I would have liked it more had it been the majority of the issue instead of awkwardly shoved in there at the end. Also, in hindsight, I can appreciate how nice the art is more since the disappointment behind the story has long since been behind me.

The final issue really was just "It's time for him to lose now" in the way it played out so quickly though. I think the biggest thing that practically murders any good will it might have had really is just how the whole Xander Payne shooting Sigma through the portal and making it all not happen goes to undermine everything.

Sticks still remembers it so I guess it still technically happened but good God, was the feeling of unrelenting pointlessness felt there. 

Yeah, hardly anyone looks back on it with any fondness for how it played out. Definitely not the writer and certainly not the majority of us.

Speaking of Sticks, Ian also said in that episode that his two pitches to get her in the IDW book have both been declined but he's trying for a third one anyway. I admire his tenacity.

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On 2/26/2020 at 1:48 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Ian didn't really have a choice. Archie had fucked up majorly due to the mess caused by their Kickstarter, and subsequently - having to back up on it because of random comic stores causing a huge stink over the mess. 

Not only was it what likely caused the downfall of Boom and Archie Mega Man, but IIRC - Worlds Unite was created as a massive marketing tool to try push more sales into Mega Man and Boom after the Kickstarter scandal. Quite a few of the idiotic choices was also a result of the editor/publisher. Shadow's death in particular was a direct result because they wanted something to show how serious the event was.

Ironically, Worlds Unite just further fuelled the mess that would end up killing both Boom and Archie Mega Man. Due to having to shell out the cash for so many licensing fees to include all of the SEGA/Capcom franchises present, it likely did more damage than fixed any.

Wait pause what is this kickstarter thing

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Wait pause what is this kickstarter thing

Back when Archie were beginning their “New Riverdale” line, they set up a kickstarter campaign to help fund it. It lasted for a whole five seconds before comic book retailers lost their shit, leading Archie to cancel it.

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4 hours ago, Big Panda said:

Back when Archie were beginning their “New Riverdale” line, they set up a kickstarter campaign to help fund it. It lasted for a whole five seconds before comic book retailers lost their shit, leading Archie to cancel it.

I always found it shady as fuck a major comic publisher that's been around since the forties needed a kickstarter to fund making comic books. 

It's honestly one of the reasons I'm so cynical about Archie as a company now.

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10 hours ago, Big Panda said:

Back when Archie were beginning their “New Riverdale” line, they set up a kickstarter campaign to help fund it. It lasted for a whole five seconds before comic book retailers lost their shit, leading Archie to cancel it.

Oh

 

I guess what makes it worse is that they just went that direction anyway and were successful

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