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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I gotta say, I don't see why anyone would ever think that. It's such a strangely defeatist viewpoint concerning characters that have almost a completely blank slate to their names. You could graft almost, literally anything onto them at this point, including the personalities of the homunculi from FMA, and it would only develop them beyond what they are rather than contradict anything. We haven't seen them written in much of anything and their personalities are so incredibly basic that expanding upon them would be like the equivalent to giving their characters an actual foundation. 

I like the Deadly Six for how they function as villains and how entertained I am by their base personalities, but besides that, we don't know a thing about them. We don't know anything about the Lost Hex. We don't know how the system of Master Zik appointing apprentice Zavok to leader works. We don't know what their team does or did that was baked in so much evil that granted them the motivation to even be villains. They COULD literally be the embodiment of six of the Seven Deadly Sins for all we know. There's nothing out there contradicting the idea that they aren't.

Saying that it's impossible for them to ever be written that good is, to me, like looking at a blank sheet of paper and saying it'll never have words written on it. The only way that's true is if you deliberately decide not to write on it. 

I understand that it's up to SEGA to push that envelope but that's still the result of a decision made by a company to not do something rather then this cosmic, magical rule that says, for some reason, it's impossible for them to be written as well as that. 

 

There is plenty of hope for the Deadly Six to get fleshed out into more than just a stereotype. And don't get me wrong, I'm actively hoping for it. I just don't see SEGA allowing it.

But as a counterpoint to those feelings, the Deadly Six here have shown far more to their characters than in even the games. Perhaps they can be fleshed out into more than just one-note characters.

 

To summarise my feelings, the realist in me says it won't happen, but the optimist in me says there's no way it can't with what we've got. I'd love for the comics to turn my opinion of the Deadly Six around to me really liking them.

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2 hours ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

I'd love for the comics to turn my opinion of the Deadly Six around to me really liking them.

You might wanna let it happen first, before making bean decisions hastily...

I know other comics with them exist, but this arc isn't even finished yet.

Otherwise, yes.

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That's the thing: SEGA will allow Ian to write them well (they'd be dumb otherwise), like in this case where they fit the storyline by commanding Zombots, use them properly, and add little things like Zor rhyming and Zeena acting like a queen. 

If you want the Zeti lore (like I do)... then it's not gonna happen, it's just too much to ask for and you know Sega won't allow that.

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I'm honestly kinda shocked how much people want the Deadly Six to never appear again. I mean whatever happened to "No bad ideas only bad execution?" Mind you I'm one of the handful of people who didn't think the Zeti had bad execution, I actually think for the most part while not deep they're pretty fun, but still.

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9 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

I like the Deadly Six for how they function as villains and how entertained I am by their base personalities, but besides that, we don't know a thing about them.

Saying that it's impossible for them to ever be written that good is, to me, like looking at a blank sheet of paper and saying it'll never have words written on it. The only way that's true is if you deliberately decide not to write on it. 

I understand that it's up to SEGA to push that envelope but that's still the result of a decision made by a company to not do something rather then this cosmic, magical rule that says, for some reason, it's impossible for them to be written as well as that. 

Hell, did Lost World itself even have a manual? What little we do know comes from side materials, spinoffs, and alternate language websites.

Case in point

9 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

We don't know anything about the Lost Hex.

We don't know how the system of Master Zik appointing apprentice Zavok to leader works.

We don't know what their team does or did that was baked in so much evil that granted them the motivation to even be villains. They COULD literally be the embodiment of six of the Seven Deadly Sins for all we know. There's nothing out there contradicting the idea that they aren't.

Japanese trailers and stuff just call it a floating continent of illusions. I swear I read something about it being pieces of Sonic's World that broke off a long time ago, but I couldn't track down where i read that. I suppose it could've just been speculation, though.

Master Zik was apparently once known as "The Strongest Warrior" and Zavok after multiple disciples now bears that title. What parameters that falls under is up in the air--whether among their group(which the former founded), the Zeti race, the denizens of the Lost Hex, or the Mysterious Beyond, they don't specify.

Their race also has a number of mystical/technomancy arts--including some that even this band considers taboo, which their young spy Zor willingly using.

Outside of that varyingly established stuff and Zomom having an abusive upbringing, we don't know anything.

8 hours ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

There is plenty of hope for the Deadly Six to get fleshed out into more than just a stereotype. And don't get me wrong, I'm actively hoping for it. I just don't see SEGA allowing it.

But as a counterpoint to those feelings, the Deadly Six here have shown far more to their characters than in even the games. Perhaps they can be fleshed out into more than just one-note characters.

 

 

3 hours ago, Jack at the Cinema said:

That's the thing: SEGA will allow Ian to write them well (they'd be dumb otherwise), like in this case where they fit the storyline by commanding Zombots, use them properly, and add little things like Zor rhyming and Zeena acting like a queen. 

If you want the Zeti lore (like I do)... then it's not gonna happen, it's just too much to ask for and you know Sega won't allow that.

Part of the issue with their debut was that it didn't really do that much with them.

  • They were given practically no backstory beyond mostly throwaway lines(Master Zik having being retired from battle, Zor claiming to have been in a depression, Zomom mentioning his mom at the end),
  • Their relationship was limited to Zavok[and Zazz?]'s respect for Zik as his Master, his view on Zazz & Zeena, and his considering at least Zazz & Zomom "brothers," 
  • Their hatred of Eggman(arguably their most well-developed aspect) is primarily limited to Zavok and a little bit of Zomom, with others either becoming more interested in Sonic and/or being neutral with their personal fixation
  • Their confrontations with Sonic, while generally amusing, aren't decently developed outside of Zik, Zor(in the English version at least), and in the Japanese version Zavok. 
  • They don't attack the enemy mine much beyond setting the Capsule trap and the Spiked Brutes chucking rocks at the Lava Mountain bridge, though the 3DS version in particular has them or at least their mechs harass Sonic in certain stages
  • Their activity outside of collecting Mobini, fending off the invaders, and leaving the Extractor on is never clarified(most of this is after the Conch is punted, btw), leading to things like Zazz & especially Zomom just hanging around with Zavok in some scenes, Master Zik coming & going even when he isn't fighting, and Zeena apparently having to be personally checked on before her first fight. 
  • They never seem to attempt fighting Amy and Knuckles for the remaining Mobini(like the tie-in comic or game's own intro), making their efforts aimless as well as denying a neat side battle.
  • Their actual goal beyond getting revenge on Sonic's entire World and getting swol in the process is left up in the air
  • Their final confrontations are bizarrely inconclusive, with most complaining before disappearing in a puff of smoke, Zor & Zavok seemingly falling into lava, no cutscene or dialogue(or aftercredits for that matter) clarifying what actually happened to them, and in fact Eggman dropping what was almost certainly a confused sequel hook

The key correct things the comic did off the bat was have them hanging around with Zor keeping tabs on the world below for Zavok, leading to the others having to be fetched so they can be brought up to speed, Zazz & Zeena tag teaming Starline for the Conch so Metal can be taken control of, and then Zavok deploying them to different landmasses to terrorize & convert the populace in their own personal way.

It's not much and it just barely distracts from the fact that they are undeniably last minute finale villains so Eggman doesn't have to be, but it's a more contextualized, effective, and arguably indulgent in a handful of issues(if that, given it was mostly side story stuff at first) than the entire debut game built around them was.

8 hours ago, Polkadi~☆ said:

To summarise my feelings, the realist in me says it won't happen, but the optimist in me says there's no way it can't with what we've got. I'd love for the comics to turn my opinion of the Deadly Six around to me really liking them.

Alright Silver.

6 hours ago, StaticMania said:

You might wanna let it happen first, before making bean decisions hastily...

I know other comics with them exist, but this arc isn't even finished yet.

Otherwise, yes.

Before doing what now?

,

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4 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm honestly kinda shocked how much people want the Deadly Six to never appear again. I mean whatever happened to "No bad ideas only bad execution?" Mind you I'm one of the handful of people who didn't think the Zeti had bad execution, I actually think for the most part while not deep they're pretty fun, but still.

Sometimes the bad idea is representative of a greater issue and the continual reappearance of said bad idea indicates to you that, the greater problem persists. Now in isolation this means nothing there are people who think everything after adventure is a part of a greater problem. The D6 however aren't  liked at all really so the problem they reprisent for many hits home. They are representative in both visual and characterization form essentially sonic's team's desire to play it safe taken entirely too far producing design on a visual level look like dream work/ koopaling rejects with none of that sonic creativity along with their personalities somehow coming off flatter than some of the most flat sonic character. All that in combination with bunches of characters going unused and calls for some badguy types to come back. They seem very much, in the way for many people.

They were supposed to be for everyone, ended up being for no one, and abridging a lot of peoples problem with modern sonic.

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6 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm honestly kinda shocked how much people want the Deadly Six to never appear again. I mean whatever happened to "No bad ideas only bad execution?" Mind you I'm one of the handful of people who didn't think the Zeti had bad execution, I actually think for the most part while not deep they're pretty fun, but still.

What happened to “no bad ideas only bad execution,” is that many don’t understand that and are more content to blame surface elements rather than be constructive about it.

And this has been ongoing since 2005, so I also wouldn’t put it past anyone that it’s being deliberately ignored because people are more content to spite something they don’t like out of ego rather than understanding what the problem in executing it was.

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I'm going to go with what @Shadowlax said; it's definitely petty and spiteful, but the fact of the matter is that the Deadly Six are representative of everything people hate about the current direction of the series. 

Which, ironically enough, puts them in the same exact position that most of the supporting cast were in from the previous decade.

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31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm going to go with what @Shadowlax said; it's definitely petty and spiteful, but the fact of the matter is that the Deadly Six are representative of everything people hate about the current direction of the series. 

Which, ironically enough, puts them in the same exact position that most of the supporting cast were in from the previous decade.

Wait, what?

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38 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, what?

 @Kuzu and @Shadowlax are saying that people use the Deadly Six as a scapegoat for the issues they have with the Modern games, not so differently from how the non-Sonic cast got unfairly blamed by critics for their critiques of the Adventure era.

I got my problems with the games since 2010, but blaming the Deadly Six for the overuse of 2D sections, lack of multiple playable characters and blatant attempts appealing to classic nostalgia is nonsensical. My main problem I have about them is how underwhelming they come off in their initial appearance. But in this comic, I have genuine interest in their involvement of the plot. 

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Random though: If my guessing correctly how story will go, I feel very bad for Rouge. But also I laugh hard.

After all these years she finally gets to fly solo without Shadow, gets into center of the action and even Sonic is out of commission.

So now I'm assuming that in next issues
 

Spoiler

All five teams will manage to get Chaos Emeralds, including little girl and inferior thieves that lost their gears.

And after all those Side Cast victories, fate of the world will depend on one thing: If Rouge the Bat, wold's greatest jewelry thief can steal emerald from one guy who doesn't know she's coming. (Even more: one gem from a Strong Red guy on floating mass. That's like her specialty).

And Rouge is going to f#@$ it up terribly. Poor, poor Rouge.

I mean I might be wrong, but right now it seems most likely turn of events. And it's kinda hilarious.

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57 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Random though: If my guessing correctly how story will go, I feel very bad for Rouge. But also I laugh hard.

After all these years she finally gets to fly solo without Shadow, gets into center of the action and even Sonic is out of commission.

So now I'm assuming that in next issues
 

  Hide contents

All five teams will manage to get Chaos Emeralds, including little girl and inferior thieves that lost their gears.

And after all those Side Cast victories, fate of the world will depend on one thing: If Rouge the Bat, wold's greatest jewelry thief can steal emerald from one guy who doesn't know she's coming. (Even more: one gem from a Strong Red guy on floating mass. That's like her specialty).

And Rouge is going to f#@$ it up terribly. Poor, poor Rouge.

I mean I might be wrong, but right now it seems most likely turn of events. And it's kinda hilarious.

Spoiler

Knowing him, Zavok'll pound her into the floor and then let Shadow's Zombot have at.

And yeah, that double connection was definitely more inevitable than we realized.

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Team Dark has the same problem as the Fearsome Five from Darkwing Duck where one character (Shadow/Negaduck) is treated as too dominant in the team that the other members just become satellite characters for him.

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36 minutes ago, Almar said:

Team Dark has the same problem as the Fearsome Five from Darkwing Duck where one character (Shadow/Negaduck) is treated as too dominant in the team that the other members just become satellite characters for him.

Yep

I hope I dunno , sega allows Ian to officially break em up for that reason. Apparently sega told him that they aren't really a team anyway right? Why not take advantage of it. This situation would be a good excuse for shadow and rouge to be pretty miffed at one another. I think Rouge at least can do great things by herself and I think shadow could do better interacting with others.

 

 

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Given Shadow's " I HATE FRIENDZ" personality nowadays, him breaking up with Team Dark is probably the most logical conclusion. At the very least, it would allow Rouge (and Omega) some more breathing room as characters. 

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Give Shadow's " I HATE FRIENDZ" personality nowadays, him breaking up with Team Dark is probably the most logical conclusion. At the very least, it would allow Rouge (and Omega) some more breathing room as characters. 

Even if shadow changes I just think it would be a good idea.  They just ended up being satellites/cheerleaders even when he was written well. Its weird, because sega is mandating they aren't really a team. But continues to keep them together in material. Like... make up your mind. It cant be just trying to milk heroes nostalgia?

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Well Shadow was more or less the main character when Team Dark was prominent, and Rouge and Omega were his Tails and Knuckles. Since that's...no longer the case, there's really no reason for them to be together any more if all of them are in the same category of supporting character. 

But yea, they're together mostly for nostalgia (and because it's simple to make a team in games like TSR or Free Riders) 

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I really, REALLY, don't want to see Team Dark broken up. I'm not saying I don't want to see Rouge and Omega have their own adventures without needing to always be tied to Shadow, but (when written well) they have one of the strongest team dynamics in the series and I think losing that would be to the detriment of all three of them. 

 

17 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm honestly kinda shocked how much people want the Deadly Six to never appear again. I mean whatever happened to "No bad ideas only bad execution?" Mind you I'm one of the handful of people who didn't think the Zeti had bad execution, I actually think for the most part while not deep they're pretty fun, but still.

The problem is that the Deadly Six aren't much of an idea to begin with. Most previous Sonic villains, even if poorly executed, had a solid enough foundation that a competent writer could find something interesting to do with them. Neo Metal Sonic can shape-shift, copy people's powers, and has a deranged obsession with being the real Sonic; Black Doom is an alien warlord who plunders other worlds for resources and is Shadow's biological father; Mephiles is a manipulator with a flare for the theatrical, who can travel through time at will and seeks to merge with Iblis to regain his true power, which would destroy reality as we know it; Dark Gaia is part of an eternal cycle of destruction and rebirth and its influence has the potential to amplify a person's worst qualities.

As for the Deadly Six, umm... They're Zeti, from the Lost Hex. If you don't know what Zeti are, or what the Lost Hex is, too bad. Sonic Lost World won't clarify things much. In fairness the Japanese version calls them Oni, which at least gives us some point of reference for what they are, even if they don't exactly take much from the folklore. Beyond that their personalities are so cliched that they can literally be boiled down to evil, crazy, fat, old, depressed, and girl and ,despite ostensibly being a team, only Zik and Zavok have any real dynamic between them. The most interesting thing about them is probably their magnetic powers, which Ian is using to pretty good effect here, but which in canon mainly just served as an excuse for them to use Eggman's robots instead of fielding their own mooks. In other words, their most unique trait is used solely to keep them from having another unique trait.

As for mapping the six to deadly sins I'd say its:

Zavok = Wrath: He's the one who actively pursues revenge. The others follow his lead but otherwise seem more-or-less content to just hang around being one-note.

Zor = Sloth: He's unmotivated.

Zomom = Gluttony: Duh.

Zeena = Pride: Most seem to associate her with lust, but she never really acts lustful. She is however extremely vain, hence pride.

Zazz = Lust: Contrary to popular belief the sin of lust is not inherently sexual in nature. Rather, it is better defined as the excessive pursuit of base pleasures. Essentially it is to the immaterial what greed is to material goods. To use FMA as an example, Lust herself doesn't really engage in sexual lust (though she certainly inspires it in other), she is however, a complete sadist who, much like Zazz, engages in another form of lust: bloodlust.

Zik is tough to map to a specific sin. The best I can come up with is that he could be written as missing his glory days and being jealous of the younger Zeti who are still in their prime, thus making him envy.

 

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Well, as you said, they haven't really been written well at all and have stagnated as a result. Even the second Archie reboot mostly focused on Shadow whenever the three were together, despite being pretty well written in it's own right.

Rouge and Omega being supporting characters to Shadow only worked when Shadow was the lead character, otherwise it's a consistent complaint that he overshadows them whenever they show up.

Since Shadow is no longer written to be a main character, and they're playing up this "lone wolf" attitude of his, having Rouge and Omega split from him could actually allow them to develop more without it needing to be tied to Shadow.

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As it's been said by others, I really don't want Team Dark broken up, because they work so well together, it's a shame, especially in the comics, because those are well written, we've basically seen Team Dark together in IDW barely for 1 issue. But still, I guess it opens up new possibilities for Rouge and Omega? They can interact with other characters, and I really doubt Shadow will be off-limits, only... very limited... ugh, I hate this situation, he's one of my favorite characters.

As for Rouge failing her mission on the ship: it's simply not her fault, she is probably underestimating Zavok, but the leader of the Zeti will prevail, if only to make him look like a proper villain, which I really dig btw, he needs to be menacing and at least he needs to succeed until the final climax.

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Hot take: I don't think team dark ever had a good dynamic. The occasional interesting conversation is not what a good dynamic makes. I think Blaze and shadow could talk some shit but they shouldn't be on a team together. I think from how the team was conceived to how the team was used, its not great. Breaking them up would benefit everyone, even if/when shadow stops being weird. The dynamic was " Shadow and his emotional support thief and robot"  to which if that's all they provide he can talk to other folks and call them on a phone. No need to limit the other two to that.

I hate that rouge and omega are reduced to satellite characters, it sucks and they shouldn't be held to that forever because an ok game existed in 2003. I feel similarly with blaze and silver. Let them folks hang out with other folks

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