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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Tiny detail in sonic 06 but an npc comments on the matter. You take an iq test as shadow she determined you or his iq is 200 and asks him to join her team. The omega scene i messed up on. He fiddles around with him but nothing happens that's my bad

Ah. I've only ever watched playthroughs. I'm not familiar with the mini-games and sidequests at all. If there is a basis for that, then sure. My bad, too.

While that is an interesting detail though, all it says is that he's intelligent (and would track with his origins) but I don't think it adds anything to him. His idea of hacking is karate chopping a keyboard, after all.

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20 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Ah. I've only ever watched playthroughs. I'm not familiar with the mini-games and sidequests at all. If there is a basis for that, then sure. My bad, too.

While that is an interesting detail though, all it says is that he's intelligent (and would track with his origins) but I don't think it adds anything to him. His idea of hacking is karate chopping a keyboard, after all.

I'm not trying to say he has more socially smart either. I can see plenty of situations where rouge has to teach him how to be a functional person in society. Like rouge explaining to him how like a bank works. ( I just imagined he just took all his money and stuffed it under his bed). Or maybe beat people up less so they tell you things.

But I think in think in battle it just adds to the idea his like a tactical battler. If you ask him to rescue someone he might have a myriad scenarios go through his head about what he can do. But if you ask him for emotional help, it's one brain cell floating about his head like the DVD logo. Though to be fair, shadow may just have anxiety. I think it makes him a bit different. It even kinda explains the whole thing with sonic in this book weirdly enough. Sonic is coming from a very emotional place. And shadow while his heart is in the right place,is a lot more cold . I think that is kinda of a neat thing. And while it doesn't add too much, it flashes out stuff that was there.

It's like if they made my head canon of rouge being a poor orphan real. It dont add much, it flashes out what's there a lot more. She had to steal to survive

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I think the idea of Team Dark being tied to GUN is more limiting than Team Dark itself. In a narrative like the comics, in particular Archie which had more factions, it makes sense because it solidly defines what role the character serves - that they are a more militaristic approach to Freedom Fighter group concept employed by the United Federation. In the games though, that sort of continuity has been out of favor at Sonic Team for quite some time and continuing to acknowledge it would only frustrate and confuse fans more than anything. It made sense back in 2006 when the games cared more about the world the characters existed in and had the plot disrupt the status quo but not now when world and status quo feel constantly in flux.

But Team Dark itself? Nah. I think the supposed problem here is that in order for Team Dark to exist they have to be Team Dark all the time, which they really don't. Just as Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can have their own stand alone characteristics and roles where they can operate independently of a group dynamic while also operate as team on occasion which focuses on their interplay as a set, Team Dark can and I would argue does do the same. Forces is a perfect example. In the main story, Shadow is fighting copies, Rouge is spying on the Death Egg, and Omega was clearly fighting on his own too. In Episode Shadow, Shadow is communicating with Rouge and attempting to reach Omega. The group and individual characterizations can both be utilized where appropriate without negating the other. I personally enjoy seeing the Chaotix acting individually in the IDW comics or games because I find their dynamic a bit played out, so I like seeing how they bounce off other characters more. Do I want Team Chaotix dissolved though? No way, they do have a fun chemistry between each other and I don't want that dynamic abandoned. I just want more variety from time to time.

And all this applies to my thoughts on the Freedom Fighters' potential roles in IDW too by the way.

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The Chaotix are so rarely together in the games that seeing them seperate from each other stands a chance at being more played out at this point, honestly.

They're together for the entirity of Heroes, together for two scenes in Shadow the Hedgehog, and... ... Charmy throws some chili-dogs into Vector's mouth in Generations.

They're all there in Forces but they never show off their dynamic in that game. Its all mostly interchangeable dialogue thrown into the ether that anyone can say. The closest we get is when they all speak one after the other in the Park Avenue level and that one shot of them standing together at the end of the game.

I feel like we've seen Team Dark together and interacting in the games far more often then the Chaotix, really.

Even TSR, where Team Dark has less to do than the Chaotix (including Espio and Charmy who aren't even in the game but still manage to do something plot relevant) they've gotten more of a chance to show off their dynamic.

I like Team Dark a lot. There's nothing about it thats upsetting or holding them back from anything. They're Team Dark when they decide to work together and they're Shadow, Rouge, and Omega when they decide to work alone. Same with Team Sonic.

The ones who should be working together more often are the Chaotix by the nature of their occupation and even that doesn't happen often. Now that Team Dark isn't officially beholden to GUN, anyone fearing for their individuality has even less to worry about.

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57 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not trying to say he has more socially smart either. I can see plenty of situations where rouge has to teach him how to be a functional person in society. Like rouge explaining to him how like a bank works. ( I just imagined he just took all his money and stuffed it under his bed). Or maybe beat people up less so they tell you things.

But I think in think in battle it just adds to the idea his like a tactical battler. If you ask him to rescue someone he might have a myriad scenarios go through his head about what he can do. But if you ask him for emotional help, it's one brain cell floating about his head like the DVD logo. Though to be fair, shadow may just have anxiety. I think it makes him a bit different. It even kinda explains the whole thing with sonic in this book weirdly enough. Sonic is coming from a very emotional place. And shadow while his heart is in the right place,is a lot more cold . I think that is kinda of a neat thing. And while it doesn't add too much, it flashes out stuff that was there.

It's like if they made my head canon of rouge being a poor orphan real. It dont add much, it flashes out what's there a lot more. She had to steal to survive

Well, to clarify my point is that I don't think it actually demonstrates anything specific about his character. Even if it's considered a consistent trait of his, it's never used in a meaningful way with what he actually does. The closest time I can really think of where this would fit is SA2, considering he managed to trick Eggman and ultimately succeeded in his revenge plan before having a change of heart and aborting it at the last second. Every other time he just rushes in headfirst with confidence in his abilities, and sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't (and this book has definitely leaned toward the latter).

Not saying there isn't interesting potential to be mined from it, and it might even get Shadow to actually do some interesting things, but right now it feels like another tacked on idea that has no bearing on how the actual character is written. It could be used to flesh out things but I also don't think it really changes anything about what he's done before. The potential is there, the execution isn't.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Being able to contain a thing or in omega case having the mechanism to do so doesn't meant you can fight the thing. As demonstrated by this comic. Also important here we are talking about omega fighting shadow, his ability to do battle in general and as far as what's been shown. He is a robot with guns. That's it

Also I'm sure tails and eggman ain't have time to take that test either. But these were important details to mention.

Tiny detail in sonic 06 but an npc comments on the matter. You take an iq test as shadow she determined you or his iq is 200 and asks him to join her team. The omega scene i messed up on. He fiddles around with him but nothing happens that's my bad

200<300<300-400 though.

Also, knowing Eggman, he probably strutted into a place he hadn't tried to takeover just yet and got a test done so he could say, "My Brain is Big!"

Several times.

1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

I think the idea of Team Dark being tied to GUN is more limiting than Team Dark itself. In a narrative like the comics, in particular Archie which had more factions, it makes sense because it solidly defines what role the character serves - that they are a more militaristic approach to Freedom Fighter group concept employed by the United Federation. In the games though, that sort of continuity has been out of favor at Sonic Team for quite some time and continuing to acknowledge it would only frustrate and confuse fans more than anything. It made sense back in 2006 when the games cared more about the world the characters existed in and had the plot disrupt the status quo but not now when world and status quo feel constantly in flux.

But Team Dark itself? Nah.

Nice reflection there.

1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

 

I think the supposed problem here is that in order for Team Dark to exist they have to be Team Dark all the time, which they really don't. Just as Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can have their own stand alone characteristics and roles where they can operate independently of a group dynamic while also operate as team on occasion which focuses on their interplay as a set, Team Dark can and I would argue does do the same. Forces is a perfect example. In the main story, Shadow is fighting copies, Rouge is spying on the Death Egg, and Omega was clearly fighting on his own too. In Episode Shadow, Shadow is communicating with Rouge and attempting to reach Omega. The group and individual characterizations can both be utilized where appropriate without negating the other. I personally enjoy seeing the Chaotix acting individually in the IDW comics or games because I find their dynamic a bit played out, so I like seeing how they bounce off other characters more. Do I want Team Chaotix dissolved though? No way, they do have a fun chemistry between each other and I don't want that dynamic abandoned. I just want more variety from time to time.

And all this applies to my thoughts on the Freedom Fighters' potential roles in IDW too by the way.

 

38 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The Chaotix are so rarely together in the games that seeing them seperate from each other stands a chance at being more played out at this point, honestly.

They're together for the entirity of Heroes, together for two scenes in Shadow the Hedgehog, and... ... Charmy throws some chili-dogs into Vector's mouth in Generations.

They're all there in Forces but they never show off their dynamic in that game. Its all mostly interchangeable dialogue thrown into the ether that anyone can say. The closest we get is when they all speak one after the other in the Park Avenue level and that one shot of them standing together at the end of the game.

I feel like we've seen Team Dark together and interacting in the games far more often then the Chaotix, really.

Even TSR, where Team Dark has less to do than the Chaotix (including Espio and Charmy who aren't even in the game but still manage to do something plot relevant) they've gotten more of a chance to show off their dynamic.

I like Team Dark a lot. There's nothing about it thats upsetting or holding them back from anything. They're Team Dark when they decide to work together and they're Shadow, Rouge, and Omega when they decide to work alone. Same with Team Sonic.

The ones who should be working together more often are the Chaotix by the nature of their occupation and even that doesn't happen often. Now that Team Dark isn't officially beholden to GUN, anyone fearing for their individuality has even less to worry about.

This is an interesting example from two perspectives for what I mean: Team Dark is thus far the one team that has both decently handled interactions amongst all its members as well as a well-established dynamic. Omega had a hostile first impression with the other two that lingered for a while; the other two have their minor moments of incredulity with his overly straightforward way of prioritizing, but relied on his keen sensors as much if not more so than his power when there's a job to do. Shadow and Rouge obviously had their convenient alliance from before, but demonstrated increasing measures of consideration for each other even with Shadow forgetting that first meeting. And while her flippant demeanor causes her to consider him, well, robotic for her liking at times, Rouge grew to see Omega as someone she can trust with sensitive details.

The other teams, by contrast, generally consist of characters who while certainly having a bond among them, aren't quite as tight knit or well acquainted. 

  • Sonic & Tails are obviously unbreakable partners with a supportive brotherly dynamic and Sonic & Knuckles generally recognize the strong inclination towards goodness despite their tendency to clash with other, but Tails & Knuckles themselves aren't as established without the former following Sonic
  • Team Rose is less of a bona fide team to begin with, literally just being a gathering of less special people Amy decided to help out. That said, I generally remember the dynamic between "the cute rabbit" & Mr. Big compared to either with Amy in the original lineup. Which is kinda slag in the first pair, since Cream was initially conceived to give Amy her own little friend/sidekick. And it seems a little mixed up to say it improved/grew better over time because, aside from little things like Cream taking kickboxing lessons from Amy and Amy deviating from the war with the Black Arms to rescue Cream from Crytic Castle, they barely interact in a positive manner in the handful instances where they do. And Big? Almost never came back until Team Sonic Racing...which has Cream replaced with "Chao" instead!
  • The Interlopers associate with each other a good deal, but don't really form a "team" in themselves most of the time. Blaze has her own kingdom in her dimension in addition to Gardon, Marine, and I think that one polar bear viking, but Silver ironically only has Dr. Nega thus far as a fellow timetraveler. And these things never really overlap at once, with the two instead interacting with the other recurring characters of Sonic's World in the present except for Dodonpa's race.
  • Team Chaotix, as an interesting inversion to all of them, were outright [re]introduced as a Detective Agency first. Thus, they came as a package deal of weirdos who generally end up bumbling their way into uncovering or in Vector's case, deducing the real answer behind the latest threat to the world. Funnily enough, this sorta leaves Espio and especially Charmy as some of the most archetypical characters of the cast, with Vector being one of the more layered characters despite being a relatively normal guy. But since they act like heroes for hire anyway, they don't really interact together as much in most subsequent appearances. As such, Espio connected with Silver to find the numerous missing Chao & possibly condemned Dr. Nega for the last time, while Vector got picked up by Team Jubilee for a World Grand Prix and then was lucky enough to link up with Silver & Blaze to help him have a cover story while the other two investigate Dodonpa's history in the background. Of course, Charmy is almost always left out of such things thus far, but the point stands.
  • The Babylon Rogues and Deadly Six are essentially the Chaotix, except varying degrees of villainous. I think I'll talk about them some other time.

 

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Note that team dark are remorseless killers and rouge black op style soldiers who join together knowing full well the other teams distrust their methods and ways of handling thing. If anything, it's the former that shows a credible friendship over all others since their basically the ones who have to be the viewed under the same thing eggman is as force of ill will sometimes.

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45 minutes ago, Robojerk said:

Note that team dark are remorseless killers

That isn't entirely false, but somewhat edgy description of Team Dark.

I think it's more interesting to point out that people have reasons to distrust them, but also Team Dark has reasons to distrusts each other (Omega is destructive Badnik who unlike Gamma or Gemerl didn't so much reformed, as switch targets) making it all the more admirable that they stuck together.

Heck, their team was meant to be temporary. Other teams started as friends, TD were temporary alliance to get common goal. None of them achieved their goal, and yet they stuck together....

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27 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

That isn't entirely false, but somewhat edgy description of Team Dark.

I think it's more interesting to point out that people have reasons to distrust them, but also Team Dark has reasons to distrusts each other (Omega is destructive Badnik who unlike Gamma or Gemerl didn't so much reformed, as switch targets) making it all the more admirable that they stuck together.

Heck, their team was meant to be temporary. Other teams started as friends, TD were temporary alliance to get common goal. None of them achieved their goal, and yet they stuck together....

I mean technically speaking shadow kinda did . He figured out what his deal was and rouge's goal is " i want gems" and I assume that was happening in the background. In 06 rouge's goal seems to just help/follow shadow but that game got retconned to hell and back and even in the next couple of games the rivals games they are on opposite teams so to speak. Those games are weird in retrospect

And I would make the argument that the team doesn't really have reasons to distrust each other except omega kind of. Rouge despite farther on the morally gray scale than shadow shows her reasonably time and again and genuine care. Shadow is mister self sacrifice, Even omega that might be the easiest to distrust the game they debuted in involves a rogue eggman robot. It was very clear from the beginning you just needed to direct omega. And I think that's the interesting part actually?

Team Dark is made of a thief , a living immortal super weapon, and what is essentially a terminator. Surface level, yes they should be untrustworthy if you see those descriptions. However getting to know one another , they very clearly saw very quickly those things are surface level and there are other things going on. Rouge is reasonable, Shadow is nobile and omega...well just point him in the right direction, but if he's your boy, he's your boy for ever. Their ability to cut through bullshit is I think is the interesting dynamic. I don't think its that admirable that they stick together, toxic teams exist all the time. Their ability to see the best in each other very quickly is what's neat or bring out the best in each other or at least try to, people are flawed.

I just don't think that requires them being together, all the time.

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06 kicked off because Rouge found out Eggman got the Scepter of Darkness after raiding the Ocean Base and got captured trying to steal it from him for GUN, who contacted Shadow as a result of her going quiet.

Wasn't Rivals 2 her using Knuckles to help her get the Emeralds for Dr. Nega or something?

Also, Omega  just tolerated their presence at first since they also wanted to track down Eggman and warned them that he would rid himself of them if they deviate from that objective. He evidently just grew to consider them trustworthy along the way.

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I mean technically speaking shadow kinda did . He figured out what his deal was and rouge's goal is " i want gems" and I assume that was happening in the background. In 06 rouge's goal seems to just help/follow shadow but that game got retconned to hell and back and even in the next couple of games the rivals games they are on opposite teams so to speak. Those games are weird in retrospect

And I would make the argument that the team doesn't really have reasons to distrust each other except omega kind of. Rouge despite farther on the morally gray scale than shadow shows her reasonably time and again and genuine care. Shadow is mister self sacrifice, Even omega that might be the easiest to distrust the game they debuted in involves a rogue eggman robot. It was very clear from the beginning you just needed to direct omega. And I think that's the interesting part actually?

Team Dark is made of a thief , a living immortal super weapon, and what is essentially a terminator. Surface level, yes they should be untrustworthy if you see those descriptions. However getting to know one another , they very clearly saw very quickly those things are surface level and there are other things going on. Rouge is reasonable, Shadow is nobile and omega...well just point him in the right direction, but if he's your boy, he's your boy for ever. Their ability to cut through bullshit is I think is the interesting dynamic. I don't think its that admirable that they stick together, toxic teams exist all the time. Their ability to see the best in each other very quickly is what's neat or bring out the best in each other or at least try to, people are flawed.

I just don't think that requires them being together, all the time.

I think you got then confused with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. Team Dark is a ruthless force of death and destruction, if you give them the same moral principles as the other teams, they'll be predictable and not as unique.

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56 minutes ago, Robojerk said:

I think you got then confused with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. Team Dark is a ruthless force of death and destruction, if you give them the same moral principles as the other teams, they'll be predictable and not as unique.

We don't even know if Shadow killed the jackal squad, where are you getting this idea from? 

What makes Team Dark Unique shouldn't be their moral codes, it should be their personality and method of actions, honestly.

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1 hour ago, thumbs13 said:

We don't even know if Shadow killed the jackal squad, where are you getting this idea from? 

What makes Team Dark Unique shouldn't be their moral codes, it should be their personality and method of actions, honestly.

Based off most spin off games and the anime, shadow/omega and rouge by extension are pragmatically violent, unethical, and ruthless anti heroes that arent afraid to commit dark deeds to achieve their goals. Compare that to other teams, who's also having clashing personalities have the same honorable and heroic qualities they all show off. There methods clash with team darks because team dark a darker/more realistic natures.

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17 minutes ago, Robojerk said:

Based off most spin off games and the anime, shadow/omega and rouge by extension are pragmatically violent, unethical, and ruthless anti heroes that arent afraid to commit dark deeds to achieve their goals. Compare that to other teams, who's also having clashing personalities have the same honorable and heroic qualities they all show off. There methods clash with team darks because team dark a darker/more realistic natures.

How are the spinoff games the things that prove this?  Battle had Shadow and Rouge doing there own thing, Rivals 1 had Rouge get captured and Shadow had to go get her, Rivals 2 had them each have their own agenda and be on opposing sides, Free Riders had them just want money, Chronicles had Omega get captured and Shadow went to go look for him, and TSR had them get invited to enter a race. None of that makes them super violent or gritty at all.

None of them are unethical. G.U.N was unethical, but they stopped that after Shadow's own game.

Team Dark's actual contrast to the main cast is that they're more pragmatic than most other characters. 

17 minutes ago, Robojerk said:

Based off most spin off games and the anime, shadow/omega and rouge by extension are pragmatically violent, unethical, and ruthless anti heroes that arent afraid to commit dark deeds to achieve their goals. Compare that to other teams, who's also having clashing personalities have the same honorable and heroic qualities they all show off. There methods clash with team darks because team dark a darker/more realistic natures.

How are the spinoff games the things that prove this?  Battle had Shadow and Rouge doing there own thing, Rivals 1 had Rouge get captured and Shadow had to go get her, Rivals 2 had them each have their own agenda and be on opposing sides, Free Riders had them just want money, Chronicles had Omega get captured and Shadow went to go look for him, and TSR had them get invited to enter a race. None of that makes them super violent or gritty at all.

None of them are unethical. G.U.N was unethical, but they stopped that after Shadow's own game.

Team Dark's actual contrast to the main cast is that they're more pragmatic than most other characters. 

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3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Rouge isn't a killer. And Omega has almost always aimed his violence at Eggman's robots exclusively.

To be fair, I dont think omega minds at all doing violence against anything in his way, robot or no. Then you have shadow and rouge, two characters who would beat you up. But I don't think they are merciless killers. Rouge doesn't seem to have kill in her, and shadow while willing reserves that for extreme cases. That's the exact opposite of merciless.

There's the jackal situation, but I think you can confidently ignore that. It exists because they needed to explain character disappearances in a bad story in rushed dlc. And considering they are kinda outside of a mobile game, not referencing that game anymore odds are we are never going to see them ever again or hear about them. And if/when shadows personality is fixed, we will double not hear about them. The jackal situation is meta, not narrative

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2 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

If you want to talk about remorseless killers in this series, let me remind you that Sonic spent the first half of Black Knight literally trying to assassinate King Arthur. 

He doesn't seem too broken up about it either if you ask me:

 

We know he's evil and Sonic knows he's evil so where would the remorse come in?

I mean technically, all Sonic should know is that he's corrupt by the Scab-bad, but still.

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13 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

We know he's evil and Sonic knows he's evil so where would the remorse come in?

I mean technically, all Sonic should know is that he's corrupt by the Scab-bad, but still.

looks at current morality subplot

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39 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

We know he's evil and Sonic knows he's evil so where would the remorse come in?

I mean technically, all Sonic should know is that he's corrupt by the Scab-bad, but still.

That's the point. Sonic sometimes kills bad guys. Team Dark sometimes kills bad guys. No remorse is involved because the people they're killing are bad guys. The way @Robojerk is describing Team Dark you'd think they were a bunch of serial killers or hitmen, not spys/soldiers/superheroes who sometimes dirty their hands for the greater good.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

There's the jackal situation, but I think you can confidently ignore that. It exists because they needed to explain character disappearances in a bad story in rushed dlc. And considering they are kinda outside of a mobile game, not referencing that game anymore odds are we are never going to see them ever again or hear about them. And if/when shadows personality is fixed, we will double not hear about them. The jackal situation is meta, not narrative

I don't think it's ever clarified what happened to the Jackals other than that Shadow incapacitated them. Which in context could mean he killed them, but could just as easily mean he knocked them out or broke their legs. Regardless, enemy combatants are generally considered fair game from a morality standpoint.

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2 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

 

I don't think it's ever clarified what happened to the Jackals other than that Shadow incapacitated them. Which in context could mean he killed them, but could just as easily mean he knocked them out or broke their legs. Regardless, enemy combatants are generally considered fair game from a morality standpoint.

Ian flynn says the word is shadow killed em in a podcast

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