Jump to content
Dejimon11

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

Why do so many people want the hero to fail? I don't know about you but personally I would rather see the heroes go through a hard time and work towards their victory than see them go through s bunch of crap just to inevitably lose.

Because it's interesting to see them be the ones who fail and have to pick themselves back up. It lets us see a lot better what happens when the character dynamics are reversed and how characters react.

That's one of the saving graces of this arc. As @Wraith said above, we rarely, if ever get to see Sonic and co under this level of stress and forced to confront their own failings, and that's interesting for a cast of characters we never get to see really do that.

They've tried to do it before in the games only to fail a lot at it. Lost World attempted it with Sonic constantly screwing up, but it fell flat because it felt contrived, and Forces attempted it too, but failed because Sonic just doesn't react and still acts like his good ol' snarky self.

It gets boring seeing heroes win all the time, and getting to see them in unique and unusual situations where they have to get through great adversity makes for very interesting storylines. 

Eggman Empire in Archie was brilliant for this reason, when we got to see the roles reversed as Eggman becomes the snarky carefree fighter, while constantly taunting and pushing every single button Sonic has, causing him to get enraged. Seeing Sonic utterly defeated and destroyed just made it all the more interesting when he did have to pick himself back up and work around how to defeat Eggman.

Frankly, a hero is only as good as the villain or adversary he faces. I don't think we really want a total lose (although it's nice to see it sometimes to shake the status quo), but we do want the hero to go through adversity, and possibly not even get out of the story unscathed. It's a boring and safe ending to have everything return to normal/status quo at the end, having a hero lose in some aspect gives them room to grow, and gives them a potential arc to work from. It's why it's interesting to see Sonic pushed to absolute breaking point - where he threatened to infect Eggman. It's not normally somewhere we'd see the character taken, and it's only achieved by him losing quite a few encounters beforehand to push him to that breaking point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I used to critique this arc from the same angle of "Ian is teasing things that we know will never happen because Sonic is a brand!" thing when it first started but then I realized that's not really a fair way to critique...anything, honestly. Like, if the story is immersing you that kind of outside stuff shouldn't be coming to mind. If you've arrived there the arc is probably not hitting you for reasons deeper than what you realize. 

That's fair. Because If i'm being honest the nature of my eggman critcism, lies less with that and more so the nature of eggman himself.Yes that plays a bit into it and yes the notion that this is going to go no where is annoying and does kinda feel like a waste of time. And an argument can be made, and i'll make it that stories, good ones, are supposed to fool you into thinking its not a waste of time. And if the premise isn't doing that, like it seems not have done for quite a few people It might just be a waste of time.

That said the core of my issues with the whole thing is less the meta and more so the nature of eggman. Him kind of being a murderous dictator , makes this a very weird argument on sonic's part. No matter how much he believes in the power of people , he's both sides-ing a dictator. Something in our current day an age with the rise of authoritarian strong men around the globe people particularly those in at risk groups show little interest in. That angle is incompatible with our time to some degree. This is , ontop of that angle just not being interesting.

Quote

I don't find "Should we kill eggman?" To be an engaging debate but once they leaned harder on the stress Sonic and friends are being put under I dug this arc a lot more. I think maybe it's just because the black and white of the Eggman debate isn't that interesting compared to the emotions the situation brings out of the characters. 

I think what speaks to that is that you can remove the eggman debate. And the story functions the same, and hits all the same emotional beats. Its not needed, and kind of a weird failure in writing I can't blame wholly on sega dropping the ball with shadow.  It wasn't a good angle. And as a shadow fan , it hurts a smidge worse because the chance to give shadow a proper introduction was squandered to push a narrative that no one likes, goes no where, and is removable. And due to aforementioned sega interventions is now resulting in the character being jettisoned from the book after this story. So I feel extra about that in particular. It was uh...really worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "debate" is just a sign that trying to reconcile the traditional dictator Eggman/Kintobor seen in Western portrayals with the Team Rocket Eggman that's been the rule in the games is silly.

Gameverse Eggman across the series isn't shown as making huge bodycounts on-screen. Sonic having a playful attitude (so playful that he doesn't really try to make sure he's locked up in Sonic Guantanamo Bay) kinda fits there since Eggman's indeed just a game. Actually having a debate over locking him up when he lost his memory while treating him as a glad mass murderer really messes with that.

And well, nothing believable and interesting will come from it. Eggman won't die, he won't get locked in a working prison, he and Sonic even talk about how nothing changed between them.

I can go into more namely how Sonic's "EVERY KILLER ROBOT CAN CHANGE SO IMA LET YOU FLY AWAY AND THROW A FIT WHEN YOU DONT" doesn't really fit with how he's characterized back when Naka was still around in Sega but that'll do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Almar said:

And well, nothing believable and interesting will come from it. Eggman won't die, he won't get locked in a working prison, he and Sonic even talk about how nothing changed between them.

Thats a narrow approach to the whats going on. If your just looking at Sonic and Eggman's dynamic remaining static, than you are missing the forest for the trees. The Eggman narrative has - at bear minimum - stressed the relationship of a good few of Sonic's allies. Vector and Espio will both have to reassess their stance with him the next time the situation arrives (which may push them closer to Knuckles interestingly enough). And as if Shadow needed another reason to be distant and difficult, he's got a rather big one to hang his hat on now.

No Eggy will never die, but what if Sonic has to actually put in some effort to rally support from some of his friends next time? What if it'll take more than just a smile and a "long time no see". That's is a significant and believable fallout that can benefit the characterization of all parties involved.

Even if we can't change the status quo per se, we can still explore then tensions between the characters that would want it to change.... I mean just look at Omega. He doesn't want to capture or maim Eggman. He wants to dance on his grave. Just because we know that can never happen should not mean we should damper his enthusiasm to achieving his goal. Shadow's ambition to use any force necessary is no different. We shouldn't ignore that part of the narrative just because it technically cant happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not much of a debater, so forgive me if I worded my previous message poorly.  The problem here isn’t having those moments of self-doubt and moral conflict in and of themselves, it’s how they’re grossly disproportionate to the role they will ultimately serve in the story.  After all the time setting up Mr. Tinker and the possible stories that could be told with him, Eggman immediately returns and that all goes up in smoke.  In fact his return is so rushed that they had to breeze through Neo Metal Sonic, which the entire comic up until that point had been building up to, so he would turn back into plain old Metal Sonic and go crawling back to him.  Sonic gets infected and his friends scold him for letting Eggman go, but does it matter?  Does it REALLY matter?  It may seem engaging when reading them for the first time, but when critiquing the arc as a whole it’s clear that they’re nothing more than red herrings used to facilitate fake drama.  Even if the good guys are destined to win, there are ways to introduce legitimate conflict and plot threads that actually will go somewhere in the future, but this just... isn’t it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to completely dismiss WindAttack's point, I kinda get it.

But ultimately every Kid Movie has heroes n peril, even though you know damn well they'll be fine. So what, is it all waste of time? Partially it's fake immersion when we pretend he's in real terror and partially it's about NOW, not future consequences.

Vector will be fine, but his sacrifice was real, not because we pretended it's serious like DC comic killing character and returning him 2 years later. but because it was delivered in real way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh gosh , I think I got the issue. Its in entierty down to one line. Well one part of the issue

The story between sonic , eggman and shadow regarding this morality is not being told and seemingly it can't be.

The story is bad because there is no story. There is a proclamation of ideals and then nothing. Because I think to myself " sonic and shadow having a morality argument should be interesting as hell" and now I know why. They aren't. Eggman isn't either. No one is arguing. People are proclaiming things at people vaguely. And one of the participants, shadow, doesn't even get that luxury

There are other players in this that may never get the narrative close they need. Like rouge, team dark should not be a team after this. This is kind of important. Because the whole thing about envoking eggman's actions is that these things should have consequences. But if no one changes as a person, it has no effect on the story that couldn't have happened with out that narrative plot point. Then nothing mattered. And rouge can help start an apocalypse and nothing is said on the matter, then nothing mattered. This story didn't need to be told.

It isn't hopeless. There's opportunity for rouge and metal sonic to make this bit of story telling actually matter. Because it seems as though the three people its about , wont. As it stands, its not even really a story being told.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SonicWindAttack said:

I’m not much of a debater, so forgive me if I worded my previous message poorly.  The problem here isn’t having those moments of self-doubt and moral conflict in and of themselves, it’s how they’re grossly disproportionate to the role they will ultimately serve in the story.  After all the time setting up Mr. Tinker and the possible stories that could be told with him, Eggman immediately returns and that all goes up in smoke.  In fact his return is so rushed that they had to breeze through Neo Metal Sonic, which the entire comic up until that point had been building up to, so he would turn back into plain old Metal Sonic and go crawling back to him.  Sonic gets infected and his friends scold him for letting Eggman go, but does it matter?  Does it REALLY matter?  It may seem engaging when reading them for the first time, but when critiquing the arc as a whole it’s clear that they’re nothing more than red herrings used to facilitate fake drama.  Even if the good guys are destined to win, there are ways to introduce legitimate conflict and plot threads that actually will go somewhere in the future, but this just... isn’t it.

We spent two issues setting up Mr. Tinker, and then he was forgotten about until after Neo was defeated. It wasn't a 'red herring', it was just plot. Sure, we could have gotten more tinker stories before he  turned back to normal to make the change sink in more, but that doesn't make the whole arc pointless, it just makes it undercooked at worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The set-up for Mr. Tinker wasn't even about Mr. Tinker himself and whatever stories, if any, could be told with him. It was about providing a grounds for the morality conflict to creep in, which absolutely HAS taken up a sizeable amount of the book. It definitely has not been forgotten. Its inclusion within the narrative lead to one of the most interesting back and forths that I've seen Sonic and Eggman have when discussing the merit behind who Eggman is and what he desires.

It did a lot for the development of his character and yes it IS character development. So often people confuse what that is by mistakenly believing that a character HAS to change as a result of it but thats not the case. The act of developing a character can go as far as simply finding out more about them. Thats why flashbacks and character studies are often considered apart of that even though they don't lead to the character, as they are now, changing in anyway. Ian obviously can't do flashbacks that dive into their deep origins but he can do character study and he's done it rather well here.

Not just by taking the characters and pushing them to their limits by making them undergo extreme stress and backing them into corners where they make tough and sometimes irrational decisions but often by just allowing them to emote and react to things in interesting ways.

It doesn't matter that Eggman will never change. Being shown that there's a part of him that did in fact enjoy his time as Mr. Tinker morphs the perception of his character, forever. You can't return to the time when you were ignorant of that knowledge and from now on its going to, in some way, color the meaning behind his actions going forward. At least it will for me.

I'll never be able to forget it or his warped rational that making everyone mindless zombies under his thumb is the way towards creating a happy world with which for him to rule over. The abscense of free will, the abscense of anyone's will but his own is what drives him to do what he does. Its incredibly creepy and something I wouldn't be able to ponder and be left to chew on had the Mr. Tinker plot not existed.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The set-up for Mr. Tinker wasn't even about Mr. Tinker himself and whatever stories, if any, could be told with him. It was about providing a grounds for the morality debate to creep in, which absolutely HAS taken up a sizeable amount of the book. It definiteky has not been forgotten. Its inclusion within the narrative lead to one of the most interesting back and forths that I've seen Sonic and Eggman have when discussing the merit behind who Eggman is and what he desires.

It did a lot for the development of his character and yes it IS character development. So often people confuse what that is by mistakenly believing that a character HAS to change as a result of it but thats not the case. The act of developing a character can go as far as simply finding out more about them. Thats why flashbacks and character studies are often considered apart of that even though they don't lead to the character, as they are now, changing in anyway. Ian obviously can't do flashbacks that dive into their deep origins but he can do character study and he's done it rather well here.

Not just by taking the characters and pushing them to their limits by making them undergo extreme stress and backing them into corners where they make tough and sometimes irrational decisions but often by just allowing them to emote and react to things in interesting ways.

It doesn't matter that Eggman will never change. Being shown that there's a part of him that did in fact enjoy his time as Mr. Tinker morphs the perception of his character, forever. You can't return to the time when you were ignorant of that knowledge and from now on its going to, in some way, color the meaning behind his actions going forward. At least it will for me.

I'll never be able to forget it or his warped rational that making everyone mindless zombies under his thumb is the way towards creating a happy world with which for him to rule over. The abscense of free will, the abscense of anyone's will but his own is what drives him to do what he does. Its incredibly creepy and something I wouldn't be able to ponder and be left to chew on had the Mr. Tinker plot not existed.

 

 

I don't think that matters much unless its regularly acted upon. Specifically because how it came about.

If I may use another villain example. Dr. Doom. He's a villain but he isn't always villainous he's looking out often for himself so that puts him at odds with good and bad guys and he respects people that he feels deserves that respect. And he has soft spots like his god children and his own children and his mom , these things are regular parts of his character that doesn't really need to be coaxed out of him these are things part of his character you can see.

Mr Tinker isn't Eggman. Mr. Tinker is Mr. Tinker. What this entire argument and what sonic as a series proposes is that our experiences and your memories are what make you who you are. That's sonic's argument from the beginning. Shadow shouldn't kill him because the man before him, isn't the same man who did all that other bad stuff. And by that same token, Eggman isn't the same guy who did all that good stuff. He has some vague memory of it. But it doesn't really matter, it is at best a hypothetical. Its not development. Tinker is what happens when eggman just lacks the memories and evil influences that made Ivo robotnik, Dr. Eggman. That's not development, that's a what if story at best.

You could write a story about shadow being a happier person if he didn't see a bunch of people get murdered. That doesn't really play into shadow's current development at all. Its just..a what if scenario. And that's what this is

Unless there's going to be regularly turning back into tinker, that's not development.

And no one is claiming development solely needs to be about change. The issue is nothing is happening. And Eggman saying " that was kinda neat, but I like being an asshole " is representative of that. The tinker thing plays to role into who is as a person now and had to be envoked by sonic to even matter. And we haven't even mentioned sonic who has yet to and will not waver in his thinking because he can't. And shadow who doesn't even have agency.

If Eggman had been pretending to be tinker and then had that thought. That's Eggman having that thought. That would mean something. Him having residual memories of another life, and those memories seeming kind of pleasant because he was literally a different person and then deciding he likes the person he is now isn't growth or development. It reinforces who he is, that's what that scene is supposed to do btw. That's the whole point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like all of these debates are kind of null and void until this arc is finished. There's been no follow up to the Tinkerer storyline because that's not the focus of the story right now. As it stands now, it's a means to get Eggman back in the picture.

But that doesn't mean Flynn can't follow up on it in a later arc as @Sega DogTagz said.

But I feel its important to know that the fact that its still being brought up even during this arc means that it hasn't been dropped at all.

 

 

Whether it leads to an interesting storyline remains to be seen. Yes, the comic is very limited in what it can do because it has to stay within the confines of a certain status quo, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything interesting with it either, even if nothing will change at the end of the day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like all of these debates are kind of null and void until this arc is finished.

So that's kinda fair. Like I still think there is value in discussing the story so far. But on some level we kinda have to wait

I just think , I dunno. Unless they pull something out in the last bit of this arc which is mostly about fighting the D6 to make time to actually address the morality argument in some meaningful way. I don't think its going to happen. Sonic and Eggman are set in their ways and shadow has no agency to discuss it at the moment.

Yeah It may come up in a later arc, but at least in my case i'm not discussing a hypothetical later arc. I'm discussing this one, and...it kinda sucks and is not needed whatsoever. And even if they figure out a way to make it neat later, I don't think this really fixes this weird non storyline ontop of an arc that already has pacing issues.

And just because it hasn't been dropped yet, doesn't mean it can't be. Ian Flynn said himself that he doesn't even know if he can actually do anything with shadow at this point because of sega. Who is very much apart of this argument of morality. If that continues to be the case... he will kinda have to. And that's part of the reason It feels kind of wasted at this point.

Maybe sega changed their mind. If so, radical. I'm here for it. But as of currently , there are no signs of this happening. And as of currently in this arc that story bit kinda...sucks and seems unnecessary.

But I do think waiting to see how things pan out has merit. That said this brings me to a point I had been wanting to bring up for a while about IDW and the current world being ...on fire in various ways. Its not the best for them, they were already not in the best shape financially, but with situations like this particularly with the diamond publishing ( the monopoly comic printing  and publishing firm. That's not a joke someone has a monopoly over that and its messed up). Deciding to not publish thing may put IDW in a worse situation. And while its not probably its still possible that this IDW sonic comic is short lived.

My first thought it is that I hope that everyone working at IDW whether employee or contract worker stay safe and alive. And I hope they get friggin paid.

My second thought is the lack of digital distribution in a lot of comic books, is going to result in a lot of cancelations. And not just in comic books, film, video games what have you. The current global goings on is going to effect how things are developed going forward

My third thought is , it would kind of suck if this comic ended up being short lived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, I get the feeling your dissatisfaction is mainly rooted that you don't really care about Sonic and Eggman's morality issues and annoyed how Shadow was used as patsy for that. Which is fair, since the latter is your favorite.

Don't really know what else to say beyond just wait and see.

I do think @Wraith had a point before about how looking at this from the angle of "They're never gonna change cuz Sonic's a brand" is already a flawed mindset.

I feel like this type of storyline requires you to break your suspension of disbelief just a bit. Just because from a meta standpoint Eggman will never change sides, doesn't make the question invalid to explore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like all of these debates are kind of null and void until this arc is finished. There's been no follow up to the Tinkerer storyline because that's not the focus of the story right now. As it stands now, it's a means to get Eggman back in the picture.

But that doesn't mean Flynn can't follow up on it in a later arc as @Sega DogTagz said.

But I feel its important to know that the fact that its still being brought up even during this arc means that it hasn't been dropped at all.

 

 

Whether it leads to an interesting storyline remains to be seen. Yes, the comic is very limited in what it can do because it has to stay within the confines of a certain status quo, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything interesting with it either, even if nothing will change at the end of the day.

Again, I would argue there's been plenty of follow-up. I'm not sure what exactly there is to wait for. We're seeing the aftermath of what happened now. Sonic's guilt regarding how he handled the situation has been explored. The exploration of Eggman's psyche has happened. Its been serving its purpose this whole time. That'll probably continue too.

What story regarding it is there to wait for? I'm just curious. I doubt he's going to return to that headspace and I don't currently see what point doing so would serve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember having some misgivings about...well, a number of things in the comic, but mostly focused on this arc. It's funny that it does a number of things I'm sure I and others have wanted to and/or have enjoyed seeing, but they're mixed amongst others in an arc that gives us those feelings.

The Shadow related stuff is was a fairly consistent bummer obviously, though he thankfully ceased being super relevant/topical for the most part. I think that might be right--we could have this arc and what not without him showing up initially.

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Issue #34 Cover

  Hide contents

 

 

Oooh...shit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.