Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[thumbs13]

It's always been weird that not being straight is inherently more sexual than being straight when it has no reason to be, not gonna lie.

It's a very weird slippery slope thing people go down for no reason.

[Big Panda]

Not to say that making a straight character into a gay one isn’t totally undoable.

Under the right circumstances, a character can be revealed to actually be gay but has been in denial the whole time. Like, so far in denial that they go after the opposite sex to hide it.

[thumbs13]

It's always been weird that not being straight is inherently more sexual than being straight when it has no reason to be, not gonna lie.

 

[Sonictrainer]

On 3/25/2020 at 2:17 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Few theories how this arc will go:

  Hide contents

1 Only Core Cast will be included in finale.
Cream and Gemerl aren't coming home. That makes me think Espio, Whisper, Silver and Rouges will also not return to Angel Island for one reason or the other, keeping the actual finale a bit tighter.
And I wondered how they squeeze all Zeti in small space, which leads me to follow up theory: one of the groups will fail. Probably Babylon Rouges. Chaos Emerald will still get to Angel Island, but to Zavok's hand. (And Zor might use his weird power to close the portal, with Silver barely pushing Emerald in time).

2 Zombot Touch
If you look closely at Zeena right after Cream took her Emerald, you can see stains of the virus. That's cool detail that apparently Cream already infected her, but it's not used to full potential.
Imagine how badass would be if Cream intentionally touches the Zombots, to use that to defeat Zeena.
Shame that  didn't happened, but something tells me Flynn didn't missed that opportunity. Keep in mind Espio is one of his favorite, went solo and "already has tactic in mind". He could get infected, touch Zazz and then use his ninja training to keep himself aware just long enough to get emerald to safety. Also, that would allow him to join Vector and Charmy, a bittersweet reunion.

 

Let's place our bets now:

Espio VS Zazz

1. Espio will win, take back the Yellow Chaos Emerald, & return to Angel Island, safely
2. Espio will win but also get infected and toss the emerald into the portal
3. Espio will fail and have to escape
4. Espio will fail and become a Zombot

Silver & Whisper VS Zor

1. Silver & Whisper win, take back the Blue Chaos Emerald, & return to Angel Island
2. Silver & Whisper win, but one of them gets infected and the other has to leave them behind
3. Silver & Whisper win, but Whisper loses one or all of her Wisps
4. They fail & have to escape
5. They fail & both of them become Zombots

I have no idea what's going to happen to Espio but something tells me that Zor and his shadow clones won't be a match for hyper go on energy...unless a Nega Wisp has to get involved.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, SatAMhog said:

It's the wording...having Sally say that she prefers to be in a sexual relationship with a boy or girl potentially leads to other adult scenarios and parents(for the majority) don't want their little boys or girls seeing their "funny little animal characters" talking about what is considered adult topics like sexuality or who a characters prefers "to bang".

Nobody's talking about anyone "banging", dude. Sexual preference, despite the name, is not just about sex.

1 hour ago, SatAMhog said:

Sonic's about saving the day and living by your own way...

I mean, how is that not exactly a reason for it to push back against homophobia and show characters of various sexualities just living their lives openly and honestly? I mean obviously you'd have the usual group of maladjusted losers complaining about "politics" and "diversity" and "SJWs" and so on but, y'know, fuck 'em.

1 hour ago, SatAMhog said:

A good example of that is the Sonic movie...we see a Sonic who is raised alone and just wants a stable relationship...basic human interaction with...SOMEONE!   However, he isn't shown thinking about "hmm James Marsden looks hot today".

What the hell kind of argument even is this. This one instance of two characters' relationship isn't romantic, therefore none of them can be? Nonsense.

[KoDaiko]

As Big Panda said, making a hetro character bi is more natural than flipping their preference to the complete opposite.

1 hour ago, SatAMhog said:

It's the wording...having Sally say that she prefers to be in a sexual relationship with a boy or girl potentially leads to other adult scenarios and parents(for the majority) don't want their little boys or girls seeing their "funny little animal characters" talking about what is considered adult topics like sexuality or who a characters prefers "to bang".  Sure, we have characters like Rouge The Bat who flaunts her "assets"(not to an absurd degree mind you) to her own advantage but that's part of her character.  She's a trickster whose real love is jewelry.  She just uses her youth and good looks to her advantage and happens to think Knuckles is all right by the end of Sonic Adventure 2.   HOWEVER, you'll notice they censored her suit down the line so it didn't so obviously show off her chest and no other Sonic girl has really had an exaggerated chest like her's?  None of the characters in the Sonic  games universe are in relationships.  They've hinted at it of course(Sonic and Blaze in the first Rush game.  Sonic "always glad to see you" reference in IDW Sonic#4.  Knuckles and Rouge in Adventure 2.   Amy's fangasm for Sonic in every other Sonic game known to man.  The most SERIOUS relationship was Tails and Cosmo in Sonic X which was done exceptionally well in the Japanese and French dubs).  However, the games and comics nowadays have gone for more of an action direction...the characters aren't in serious relationships other than what's been established.   If Tangle and Whisper are hinted at to be something more, than that's fine.  Whisper is dealing with the loss of her friends and has survivor's guilt and with Tangle's roboticization, she's going to cling to her more than ever in upcoming books once the whole virus(in book and in reality funnily enough) scenario is over.

I'm not against it personally, but honestly I don't see it happening anytime soon.  We live in a society where "being straight" is the norm and thus being in what's considered a "normal relationship" between a boy and girl is not seen as touchy.  Being gay or lesbian however is...you can see hints of it in mainstream family movies but for the most part, they're in the background and not really the main focus of Marvel movies.  Honestly, DISNEY Marvel just uses it to say "hey look we put a diverse "X" in our movie.  Give us your money." to fill a quota like any business does.  However, Sonic is not like that and never has been.  Sonic's about saving the day and living by your own way...you notice Sonic goes out of his way to avoid Amy.  He's "the cool dude with the tude" and "DOES WHAT NINTENDON'T".   A good example of that is the Sonic movie...we see a Sonic who is raised alone and just wants a stable relationship...basic human interaction with...SOMEONE!   However, he isn't shown thinking about "hmm James Marsden looks hot today".  He wanted a replacement for Owl Mom and ultimately, he got it in the end with James Marsden and the other lady(sorry I'm not familiar with her name) and got to be a hero on top of it.   Sally discovering her sexuality is better off in adult fan fiction...that's where it will flourish the best. 

I apologize for the wall of text.  I do hope this provides some context for my reasoning, however.  Thanks. 

 

...you know love isn't just about sex, right? it can be emotional/romantic too. Unless the kids are very small, they should know/have some form of crush and love. There's multiple RL stories where a kid asks a gay adult "why don't you have a [partner of the opposite gender]?" and they totally understand the answer, "well I like [same gender]". 

Like hetro romance, it should be treated as natural and not put too much focus on the orientation/preference itself. It will feel forced if they take the time to point out a man is dating another man and how it's 'different', with the other characters reacting "wait, you're gay!?" "wait, what doesn that mean??"...unless it's important to the story. It won't if the man casually introduce his bf and no one makes a fuss.

They can have Sally mention she was close with a male character in the past, while ""dating"" a girl (cuddling, holding hands, whatever people associate with love) in the current time. They can have her blushing or flirting with both male and female characters. Sure it can be interpreted differently by people, and parents can make up excuess for their kids, but that's enough for the writer to say she's bi. I mean adult readers immediately theorized Tangle was lesbian because she was excited at Blaze, same with Whisper for becoming besties with Tangle.

[DabigRG]

Oh, back to the comic

54 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

1. Silver & Whisper win, but Whisper loses one or all of her Wisps

I do have to wonder if the Wisps themselves can be infected, since their energy evidently cannot.

Quote

I have no idea what's going to happen to Espio but something tells me that Zor and his shadow clones won't be a match for hyper go on energy...unless a Nega Wisp has to get involved.

Godzilla threshold

4 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

I mean adult readers immediately theorized Tangle was lesbian because she was excited at Blaze, same with Whisper for becoming besties with Tangle.

Oh yeah, that did happen, didn't it?

[SatAMhog]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Nobody's talking about anyone "banging", dude. Sexual preference, despite the name, is not just about sex.

I mean, how is that not exactly a reason for it to push back against homophobia and show characters of various sexualities just living their lives openly and honestly? I mean obviously you'd have the usual group of maladjusted losers complaining about "politics" and "diversity" and "SJWs" and so on but, y'know, fuck 'em.

What the hell kind of argument even is this. This one instance of two characters' relationship isn't romantic, therefore none of them can be? Nonsense.

Your first point that no one is talking about "banging"...they're talking about Sally being bisexual and whom she prefers to be with.  A sexual preference is literally what it means...whom you prefer to have sexual relations with.  Again, it's the context of the word.  Being in a "relationship" is a lot more innocent sounding than "sexual preference" or "discovering one's sexuality".  To a parent and especially corporate entity, that sounds too borderline especially with the word "sex" in it.  LGBT issues are considered adult issues outside the established norm.  It's not going to fly in children's media which is why you don't see it in Sonic media like the games, comics or cartoons.

Your second point...my point about Sonic "living his own way" is in reference of his heroic nature to help others not how he loves someone.  IF Sonic were more of an adult book, I'm sure more LGBT issues would be pushed, but it's not an adult book...it's a children's book about a blue hedgehog destroying robots from a wacky scientist named Dr. Eggman Ivo Robotnik.  It's not a trashy romance novel you can buy from the drug store.

Your third point...that's just one example and I cited others before like Sonic and Blaze or Tangle and Whisper where they hinted at relationships but didn't take it further.  With the Sonic movie example, I'm not saying that Sonic and others can't be in a relationship...it's that THIS Sonic wasn't seeking a sexual relationship but a parental one.   He lost OWL MOM and wanted to fill that void in his life.   James Marsden came in and became a father figure to Sonic.  They leave it at that...something considered entirely appropriate for a kid's movie.  If they took it further and had Sonic pining for James Marsden, it would be Sonic 06 all over again.  It's the same thing with lesbian or gay relationships in comics, movies and TV shows...they can HINT at it but they can't outright say it.  It's a children's property at the end of the day and they're in it to make money.  They're not going to go out of their way to offend the majority of parents and appease a few.   It doesn't work like that.    You can get away it in other media, but Sonic The Hedgehog is not the place where you'll OFFICIALLY see the characters go beyond established societal norms.  Maybe in the future.

[SatAMhog]

2 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

As Big Panda said, making a hetro character bi is more natural than flipping their preference to the complete opposite.

...you know love isn't just about sex, right? it can be emotional/romantic too. Unless the kids are very small, they should know/have some form of crush and love. There's multiple RL stories where a kid asks a gay adult "why don't you have a [partner of the opposite gender]?" and they totally understand the answer, "well I like [same gender]". 

Like hetro romance, it should be treated as natural and not put too much focus on the orientation/preference itself. It will feel forced if they take the time to point out a man is dating another man and how it's 'different', with the other characters reacting "wait, you're gay!?" "wait, what doesn that mean??"...unless it's important to the story. It won't if the man casually introduce his bf and no one makes a fuss.

They can have Sally mention she was close with a male character in the past, while ""dating"" a girl (cuddling, holding hands, whatever people associate with love) in the current time. They can have her blushing or flirting with both male and female characters. Sure it can be interpreted differently by people, and parents can make up excuess for their kids, but that's enough for the writer to say she's bi. I mean adult readers immediately theorized Tangle was lesbian because she was excited at Blaze, same with Whisper for becoming besties with Tangle.

You do have a point...love isn't just about sex but not everyone sees it that way.    But again, I stress my point with the wording.  Companies like IDW and Sega have certain guidelines they have to go by when it comes to children's content.  A lot of parents don't want their kids discussing sexual preference if it's outside the realm of established societal norms of "boy and girl" because of what it might lead to(intercourse for one).  If it's "boy/boy or girl/girl" relationships, it's considered too much in the realm of children's media.   Sure, we as adults know the difference and can decide for ourselves.  But kids are not considered to have a brain mature enough nowadays which is why we get a lot of stupid cartoons and not the stuff we grew up with like SatAM which were more mature(though there are still good cartoons being made, they're just harder to find). Let's say they have Sally explore another relationship with say Nicole...they'd have to stop at "best friend" because it's what is considered acceptable.  Sally can't outright say she's "bi" to Nicole in official Sonic media.  She could say "best friend" and it would work because it's innocent sounding.   It's all in the wording and what won't offend.   If Sonic were an adult show, you'd see Sally looking into Nicole more but it wouldn't happen right now.   TBH, I'd love to see that because Sally and Nicole have a lot of history and it would make for an interesting dynamic but Archie Sonic is only online now though dedicated fans(and to be honest, it could happen in that book as that book is not under Sega mandate).

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

Your first point that no one is talking about "banging"...they're talking about Sally being bisexual and whom she prefers to be with.  A sexual preference is literally what it means...whom you prefer to have sexual relations with.  Again, it's the context of the word.  Being in a "relationship" is a lot more innocent sounding than "sexual preference" or "discovering one's sexuality". 

It is just as possible to be openly bisexual without fucking anyone as it is to be openly straight without fucking anyone. Nobody looks at Amy's crush on Sonic and thinks it's the first step in turning the series into furry pornography; why would a character being bisexual be any different.

2 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

To a parent and especially corporate entity, that sounds too borderline especially with the word "sex" in it.  LGBT issues are considered adult issues outside the established norm.  It's not going to fly in children's media which is why you don't see it in Sonic media like the games, comics or cartoons.

And that should change, because gay, bi, and trans kids read comic books and play video games just the same as straight ones do and deserve heroes they can see themselves in just as much.

2 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

Your second point...my point about Sonic "living his own way" is in reference of his heroic nature to help others not how he loves someone.  IF Sonic were more of an adult book, I'm sure more LGBT issues would be pushed, but it's not an adult book...it's a children's book about a blue hedgehog destroying robots from a wacky scientist named Dr. Eggman Ivo Robotnik.  It's not a trashy romance novel you can buy from the drug store.

Okay your insistence on constantly equating any kind of LGBT content with sex or "trashy romance novels" is starting to make this seem like you actually do have a problem with the subject itself.

2 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

Your third point...that's just one example and I cited others before like Sonic and Blaze or Tangle and Whisper where they hinted at relationships but didn't take it further.  With the Sonic movie example, I'm not saying that Sonic and others can't be in a relationship...it's that THIS Sonic wasn't seeking a sexual relationship but a parental one. 

Then what does it have to do with completely different characters in completely different relationships? It's completely irrelevant.

2 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

It's the same thing with lesbian or gay relationships in comics, movies and TV shows...they can HINT at it but they can't outright say it.  It's a children's property at the end of the day and they're in it to make money.  They're not going to go out of their way to offend the majority of parents and appease a few.   It doesn't work like that.    You can get away it in other media, but Sonic The Hedgehog is not the place where you'll OFFICIALLY see the characters go beyond established societal norms.  Maybe in the future.

I mean if you're a coward, sure. Things don't change by just sitting around waiting for it; what progress has been made has come from pushing forward regardless of what the pearl-clutchers think.

[thumbs13]

46 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

You can get away it in other media, but Sonic The Hedgehog is not the place where you'll OFFICIALLY see the characters go beyond established societal norms.  Maybe in the future.
 

The rest of your Helen Lovejoy-esque fearmongering is whatever, but this is the part where people differ. Sega the company and the various products under it are different. That's why Sega Hardlight was able to get away with the pride flag, and Penders could have made Rotor gay. I agree, we'll never see a gay Sonic character in the games. The movies, the comics, and hypothetical future cartoons? Who knows.

[SatAMhog]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It is just as possible to be openly bisexual without fucking anyone as it is to be openly straight without fucking anyone. Nobody looks at Amy's crush on Sonic and thinks it's the first step in turning the series into furry pornography; why would a character being bisexual be any different.

And that should change, because gay, bi, and trans kids read comic books and play video games just the same as straight ones do and deserve heroes they can see themselves in just as much.

Okay your insistence on constantly equating any kind of LGBT content with sex or "trashy romance novels" is starting to make this seem like you actually do have a problem with the subject itself.

Then what does it have to do with completely different characters in completely different relationships? It's completely irrelevant.

I mean if you're a coward, sure. Things don't change by just sitting around waiting for it; what progress has been made has come from pushing forward regardless of what the pearl-clutchers think.

First point, being "straight" is considered okay and completely innocent...that's why you can away with Amy crushing on Sonic but not Amy crushing on Blaze.  "Boy/Boy" and "Girl/Girl" relationships don't fly in children's media.

Second point, there are gay, bi and trans kids but they're in the minority.  It is a shame but the truth of the matter is that LGBT material is still considered "too adult" for a lot of parents.

Third, me equating LGBT content with "sex" and "trashy romance novels" was just to illustrate a point, nothing more.   If I offended you with how I worded my examples, I apologize...I didn't mean anything by it.

Fourth, I'm just using the Sonic movie scenario to explain that you won't see Sonic explore his sexuality or any other character for that matter.

Fifth, people in general are slow to change.  That's why I think you won't see things change in the immediate future when it comes to Sonic.

[thumbs13]

4 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

First point, being "straight" is considered okay and completely innocent...that's why you can away with Amy crushing on Sonic but not Amy crushing on Blaze.  "Boy/Boy" and "Girl/Girl" relationships don't fly in children's media.

 

...Do you really think that Sonic has a lower age range than children's cartoons and goddamn disney sitcoms, which have had gay characters before?
This argument feels like it was dragged out of 2005 and forgot to check what year it was in.

[SatAMhog]

4 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

The rest of your Helen Lovejoy-esque fearmongering is whatever, but this is the part where people differ. Sega the company and the various products under it are different. That's why Sega Hardlight was able to get away with the pride flag, and Penders could have made Rotor gay. I agree, we'll never see a gay Sonic character in the games. The movies, the comics, and hypothetical future cartoons? Who knows.

Oh c'mon, I was just trying to make a point.   The pride flag you CAN get away with because not all kids would know what it means and it can blend in the background.  Penders says a lot of things and is never 100% percent honest.  I imagine he was saying he could've made Rotor gay to get brownie points.  They're streamlining the movies, comics and cartoons so they could probably get away with some stuff in the future.

[SBR2]

You do realize the word Sex is in the official name for straight right? Do you think saying a character is Heterosexual will lead to lots of straight sex being shown? 

It's also hilarious you say Same sex relationships can't be shown in childrens media when Adventure Time had Marci and Bubblegum being an official pairing, Ok KO had Enid be Bisexual and get together with Red Action, Steven Universe featured several relationships between the largely Female coded Gem race, Ducktales and the Loud House have characters who have 2 dads.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

First point, being "straight" is considered okay and completely innocent...that's why you can away with Amy crushing on Sonic but not Amy crushing on Blaze.  "Boy/Boy" and "Girl/Girl" relationships don't fly in children's media.

You're certainly making an effort to keep it that way.

You started out saying that you didn't think it was an appropriate subject for Sonic, now you're pivoting to some nebulous group of other people being the obstacle.

8 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

Fourth, I'm just using the Sonic movie scenario to explain that you won't see Sonic explore his sexuality or any other character for that matter.

You didn't actually make any kind of point about that. The existence of one story that doesn't involve a character's sexuality doesn't mean that there won't, can't, or shouldn't be other, completely unrelated stories that do involve a (potentially entirely different) character's sexuality.

[SatAMhog]

5 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

You do realize the word Sex is in the official name for straight right? Do you think saying a character is Heterosexual will lead to lots of straight sex being shown? 

No one in children's media outright states they're "heterosexual".  It's just considered a given normal and has been for a long time.  Being "bi" however is not and takes time like anything else to become normal.  It's just become more relevant with the rise of social media and the internet that you see a lot more material with this kind of subject matter pop up.

[Shadowlax]

18 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

The rest of your Helen Lovejoy-esque fearmongering is whatever, but this is the part where people differ. Sega the company and the various products under it are different. That's why Sega Hardlight was able to get away with the pride flag, and Penders could have made Rotor gay. I agree, we'll never see a gay Sonic character in the games. The movies, the comics, and hypothetical future cartoons? Who knows.

I think the chances are pretty high. While I think they have more control of the products under them that you are giving them credit for I also think they just dont care. As long as you dont make claims about their core characters preferences. I dont think they care what you do in that regard. I think they only thing stopping this in future is the digression of the writers ( example: Ian flynn just not wanting to do relationships rn) or the people immediately in charge of the production. Like say if paramount doesn't want that. Otherwise I don't think they care and there are pretty good chances of seeing LGBTQ folk in sonic in future.

 

I want to be clear. This is just my take. It could turn out sega is bigoted as all get out. But from what I gathered I don't think they care much. I just dont think they are inclusive enough to claim any of the core are LGBTQ

[Wraith]

gonna be real awkward when those times tangle was staring in awe at blaze turn out to have been hinting at something

[Big Panda]

8 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

No one in children's media outright states they're "heterosexual".  It's just considered a given normal and has been for a long time.  Being "bi" however is not and takes time like anything else to become normal.  It's just become more relevant with the rise of social media and the internet that you see a lot more material with this kind of subject matter pop up.

I think you’ll find that being gay or bi is very much normal, my friend.

And nobody in children’s media would say “homosexual” or “bisexual” either.

At the very least they’d just say “gay”.

Or, ideally, they’d say nothing at all. A character will be depicted as being in a relationship (the kid-friendly depiction; hand-holding, cuddling, blushing, maybe kissing) with somebody who is the same gender, and nobody will question it. Nobody will say “HEY LOOK THOSE DUDES ARE GAY” at every given opportunity. They’ll just think nothing of it and move on.

It really couldn’t be simpler.

[SatAMhog]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're certainly making an effort to keep it that way.

You started out saying that you didn't think it was an appropriate subject for Sonic, now you're pivoting to some nebulous group of other people being the obstacle.

You didn't actually make any kind of point about that. The existence of one story that doesn't involve a character's sexuality doesn't mean that there won't, can't, or shouldn't be other, completely unrelated stories that do involve a (potentially entirely different) character's sexuality.

How am I making an effort to keep it that way?  I'm stating my opinion...if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  I stated that I didn't think it's appropriate subject for Sonic because it's not... Sonic's not about discovering one's sexual choice, it's about saving the day from a robotic madman named Eggman.  Sega's kept the story around that and I don't see them changing it around anytime soon.   Sure, they could in the future but I just don't see it happening.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

gonna be real awkward when those times tangle was staring in awe at blaze turn out to have been hinting at something

Ian flynn said that he's not doing anything like that right now. Outright when someone asked about tangle and whisper. It wasn't intended to hint at anything.

Unfortunate but Flynn in his own words "he would prefer characters be judged by what they do, not who they date" the ship wars burnt him out.

Maybe someone else will write eventually and do something with it.

[StaticMania]

Man, why is this even happening?

It's always just one person too.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Ian flynn said that he's not doing anything like that right now. Outright when someone asked about tangle and whisper. It wasn't intended to hint at anything.

he said he was done with relationships and then fed the nicole/sally fire. i dont trust that man. i do not

[SatAMhog]

3 minutes ago, Big Panda said:

I think you’ll find that being gay or bi is very much normal, my friend.

And nobody in children’s media would say “homosexual” or “bisexual” either.

At the very least they’d just say “gay”.

Or, ideally, they’d say nothing at all. A character will be depicted as being in a relationship (the kid-friendly depiction; hand-holding, cuddling, blushing, maybe kissing) with somebody who is the same gender, and nobody will question it. Nobody will say “HEY LOOK THOSE DUDES ARE GAY” at every given opportunity. They’ll just think nothing of it and move on.

It really couldn’t be simpler.

That's a fair point...in some places it is the norm and is perfectly acceptable.  No argument there.  In some circles, it is not and that's why I think Sega has to tow the line with what's considered normal and what is not...to cater to everybody, which is why adult relationships aren't a big issue in Sonic and are played off for comedy in the games(Amy's fangasm with Sonic lol).