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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

If you mean sonic's desire for reformation? Yes he outright states in and argues for it multiple times. That plot thread is still about and being used.

 

I mean, "Should we be rid of Eggman if this is what he's gonna keep doing?"

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Its actually kind of fucking creepy. Mr Tinker is a different guy, Mr. Tinker required removal of everything that makes eggman...eggman. Outside of IQ. For sonic to want tinker back , its own brand of unethical creepyness. He would see this man get his personality removed so he can feel comfortable. Shadow is ok with eggman being eggman and has come to terms with he's gonna have to kill him at some point. Sonic is at least fine with his memories being removed if eggman becomes something less evil. And this is some gerald robotnik territory.

Or, y'know, not that at all, actually.

Oj4m8UB.png

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23 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I mean, "Should we be rid of Eggman if this is what he's gonna keep doing?"

Yeah? Depending on if the story has lasting effects. It might come up more often

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Or, y'know, not that at all, actually.

Oj4m8UB.png

Yeah that's kinda cruel in a weird way. No one has any obligation to be someone they aren't. And the expectation for him to do that because he had some mental damage is weird. That scene I think is followed up by eggman saying he's legit gonna just be a dick anyway because he can. And even after all that comics later sonic is drumming away at that argument. Even after eggman is only helping to save his own ass. Sonic could not say a dang thing and it would be fine. His desire to continue bringing up that argument is for his own confort, he wants eggman to be someone else because that's what he wants. But he isn't thinking that maybe eggman doesn't want to be that. Because that idea makes him uncomfortable.

I'm not saying sonic isn't a completely manipulative emotionless weirdo

Sonic much like many of the sonic characters is very strong willed. He has a very specific view of the world. Sonic is in a position where that view is being questioned. Because its running up against who another person simply is. And in this instance, he kind of at the very least comes off as kind a manipulative douche. Its weird to be saying this about eggman. But I don't think for sonic, this kind of behavior is actually usual. To the degree in which it doesn't seem out of character. You could even suggest why he and shadow has continuous beef. Because shadow does not act in ways that make sonic comfortable. And he can't deal with that.

He's a free spirit. And eggman is in this situation is just kind of cold reality. And its fucking him up. Eggman's morality is uninteresting as hell. But this little situation that came out of it. Its kinda neat. Even if it isn't the intended outlook on the situation

 

 

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6 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yeah, I don’t know where you’re hearing that from.

Most complaints towards the “Sonic can never lose” center around the thought that the mandate would reduce tensions and stakes, and that Sonic would risk becoming a boring invincible hero as a result as they criticize in cases like Generations and Colors. No ones asking he permanently lose, just that he not always win lest he be seen as “perfect”.

But that fear is baseless because we've seen several times in Comics and I'd even argue in the games that raising the stakes isn't a no no to Sega it's just that by the end if the game or story arc he has to win.

This idea Sega wants him to be completely invincible is honestly baffling to me.

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1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

All this might be fine except Eggman admitted he liked being Mr. Tinker. A prior issue had him reminisce about it happily and proudly -  even mentioning the happiness he granted others as one of the reasons he liked it. He then had to quickly shake it and pretend he hated it. Sonic isn't incorrect at all, we've seen Eggman admit he doesn't mind being Mr. Tinkerer, and being in self-denial about that fact.

The problem isn't Eggman is incapable of being like Mr. Tinkerer, or Mr. Tinkerer is something Eggman hated - he clearly did like it, but something is convincing Eggman to remain a villain, and to try disassociate himself with Mr. Tinkerer altogether. Hell, the Zombot arc thematically works in this context - it's Eggman trying to burn whatever bridges he had with those who offered him redemption and a second chance at life. He specifically picks that village as his initial target after all.

But to be frank - Sonic telling him be more like him isn't fucked up, or cruel in any way. Eggman despite any positive aspects he has is a egotist evil megalomaniac. Sonic isn't asking him to be someone different, he's asking him to take up the positive traits of Tinkerer, and be more like him. Eggman might still have the flaws of being an egotist, but if he put his mind to doing good instead of doing evil things. He's a evil scientist who caused nearly the total destruction of the planet because he felt the need to make a comeback after being gone for what must've been a short hiatus. Sonic telling him to get his life together and do something positive, admirable, and all around better instead of being an evil dick isn't cruel, it's him telling Eggman he could actually have a happier and more positive life if he'd put his intelligence and positive traits to good use.

Sonic and Eggman share a lot of flaws despite one being good, and one being bad. Both have the terrible habit of treating their fights as games, being egotistical people who express that egotism in differing ways, they enjoy taunting others in their battles, etc. But the difference is Sonic's flaws are counteracted with his positive traits. Eggman's traits can be positive, but he instead wastes it on evil purposes. When Sonic says "Be more like him", he isn't saying "Be a completely different person and change all of your personality traits", he's saying "Just try to strive to be more like him, in kindness, or admirable traits". 

I feel like the issue iwth this take is two things. He after saying that said I like being evil more.

And the other issue is those aren't his traits, those are the traits of someone else induced by a head injury. Everyone has the capacity not be an asshole. But eggman choosing to be one anyway, is what he wants to do. Sonic asking him to effectively be someone else , which is I dunno selfish at the very least.

And here's the thing, you are still arguing at sonic's perspective. Eggman doesn't see it as a waste, eggman see's it as who he wants to be.

"Just strive to be more like him"

" That's not who I am "

Then what, its just asking eggman to ...someone else. At the core of this its sonic uncomfortable with idea that eggman's just chooses to not do good and even when offered an alternative...chooses to still be bad. That's why he has that whole bit with metal. He's upset because he felt like metal choose to just be bad. Its baffling to him that people with thier own agency choose to be dicks. He hates it, it makes him uncomfortable.

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11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like the issue iwth this take is two things. He after saying that said I like being evil more.

Except no, he's clearly displayed being in self-denial about this fact. He literally set in place a plan that would not only completely raze any chance of returning back to that version of himself, but on top of that, when he was questioned about it, he let the facade slip and reveal that he did enjoy being Mr. Tinkerer.

You can't take him saying "I like being evil more" at his word. He's literally showcased before this point that he's trying to fool himself into hating his time as Mr. Tinkerer when the comic already showed that clearly isn't the case. 

11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

And the other issue is those aren't his traits, those are the traits of someone else induced by a head injury. Everyone has the capacity not be an asshole. But eggman choosing to be one anyway, is what he wants to do. Sonic asking him to effectively be someone else , which is I dunno selfish at the very least.

No, they aren't. You can argue those traits and Eggman becoming a pacifist was created by the blow to the head that caused him to lose his memory, but the traits of Mr. Tinkerer from the beginning were shared with Eggman. The very first thing he does is use his intelligence to free himself from the prison cell. 

He still loves tinkering, creating, and inventing. He still enjoys getting attention from other people, and on top of that - he still has the egotistical taste that Eggman had in full. He even retains a lot of Eggman's negative traits. He still has a great interest in Sonic, and regards him as a friend, as well as wanting to impress him - something that regular Eggman does a lot.

The key difference here is that Mr. Tinkerer is, and always was Eggman. The only difference is with the memory loss, he was no longer evil. He had no reason to be evil. And when that happened, Mr. Tinkerer didn't just magically lose Eggman's key traits - he applied them - good and bad - into positive things.

Eggman's unique style and taste, and even his goal of Eggmanland - it became the basis of a amusement park meant to give happiness to children. His egotism and rivalry with Sonic - it became a friendship with Sonic - as he wanted to impress Sonic, and asked him to return to check in periodically. His need for attention - it drove him to construct and befriend the villagers, making deeper bonds with them, and enjoying their genuine admiration and appreciation for him.

Sonic is not asking him to be someone else. He clarified that is not what he was asking of Eggman. Asking Eggman to try be like someone else, and to actually be someone else is two different things. He's asking Eggman to take on the admirable aspects of Mr. Tinkerer, that's it. And the reason being is that Mr. Tinkerer is literally Eggman's core character traits all being used in some way - positively, and for the benefit of others.

And again - Sonic asking someone to change is not selfish. This is not some regular person. This is Dr. Eggman, a man who has terrorised millions, and unleashed a literal world-ending virus onto the world. If anyone should be getting a message of "just be yourself", it is not Dr. Eggman. He is someone with great gifts and the potential for good wasting it being evil for god knows why. Sonic is entirely in the right to point out how shitty Eggman as a person is, and how he could easily change if he wanted to.

11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

And here's the thing, you are still arguing at sonic's perspective. Eggman doesn't see it as a waste, eggman see's it as who he wants to be.

 Because I have no good reason to argue from Eggman's perspective. We've seen Eggman's perspective, and it's that even he doesn't know what he wants. We've seen him acknowledge and admit he liked being Mr. Tinkerer, he liked everything he got from it. Metal Sonic reminded him of his identity, but that didn't magically wipe Mr. Tinkerer, or memories of that time from Eggman. Eggman got a taste of what it would be like to be humble, or a kindly inventor, or hell - just using his abilities for good - warts and all, and he liked it. That fact cannot be denied.

You claim Eggman doesn't see it as a waste and being himself, but that argument is logically flawed from the core. That is why the whole argument was even established in the comic - we've already seen Eggman pretty much admit he was in self-denial, and needed an excuse for returning to evil as is. Nothing Eggman says can be trusted because Eggman at this point is essentially trying to prove to himself this was the better path. Somewhere in there, he knows he could've remained Mr. Tinkerer and probably had a happier life, and now he's trying to find something, anything to justify burning that bridge and returning to villainy.

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I'm gonna end this here. Because there's a key point that I think we disagree on that I think speaks to the nature of just how we view things and it wont go anywhere.

You think eggman liking it matters. And think It hits some core insecurity that indicates a desire to be different. Or at least the ability to be

I don't think it does really. I think at the end of the day, regardless of what he can be. It matters what he chooses to be. And what he's has chosen to be before. As a guy who likes anti heroes. Usually I would agree with your take, with eggman... I can't.

Not going to say you are wrong @Ryannumber1gamer because its a valid read. I just don't agree. I don't think it matters much, particular in this situation.

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Even if Eggman chooses to be evil, the fact of the matter is that he did like being Mr. Tinker and Sonic is disappointed in him for choosing to fall back into old habits in spite of that.

I don't think Sonic is as in the wrong as you're trying to say given he defended the guy.

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8 hours ago, SBR2 said:

But that fear is baseless because we've seen several times in Comics and I'd even argue in the games that raising the stakes isn't a no no to Sega it's just that by the end if the game or story arc he has to win.

This idea Sega wants him to be completely invincible is honestly baffling to me.

Not exactly. Granted the comics tend to have better writing and a bit more freedom with its stakes and storytelling, but there’s always the chance Sega would strong-arm things to their detriment.

It also doesn’t help the game’s writing doesn’t really sell the stakes as well, often by intention. At the very least, folks want Sonic to genuinely struggle and earn his victories, not win them with the ease that makes the entire threat look trivial.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Even if Eggman chooses to be evil, the fact of the matter is that he did like being Mr. Tinker and Sonic is disappointed in him for choosing to fall back into old habits in spite of that.

 

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I don't think Sonic is as in the wrong as you're trying to say given he defended the guy.

 

I think his motives makes sense.

Its just kind of really selfish and kinda messed up giving the proceedings that I like that. Maybe you forgot, but the preamble to this is that I think the idea is neat. Yeah its a bit of admonishment of sonic's character its a kind of interesting accidental dip into ...actual character flaw. And I find that interesting.

Yeah I think sonic's kind of wrong, but that's good. In story or at least a narrative plot that consists of characters stating ideals at each other. This is a genuine albeit accidental dive into someone's personality and its kind of neat.

Its a good character flaw. Sonic needs to believe everyone can and will be better if you push them, seemingly for him to function. The notion that isn't the case makes him unconformable.  That's relatable as hell specifically in our current times of the world being various types of on fire.

This is good. This is a good flaw

 

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21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

But that's not what you framed it as; you framed it as Sonic being some type of sociopath for...not wanting to see someone, even his arch enemy, be killed? 

No yeah its still a good flaw.

Its just also that. Like at the end of the day its sonic going " Gonna let you live because coming to terms with the notion that not only that you can't change that you will continuously choose not to change and this will result in millions dead" no that's kinda sociopathic. Obviously he isn't thinking about it that literally, but that's what is occurring.  Its a good flaw. Its sonic being selfish about what he feels the world should be , its his live free attitude coming to bite him in the rear. Hypothetically anyway, Ian flynn isn't probably gonna address that in ernest. But the potential is there.

Its like a happy accident. The happy accident is that guy who seems cool is actually kinda messed up

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Eggman in most of the games isn't established to have a notable bodycount. It's easy for Sonic to wave off arresting or ending him there since again Eggman is like Team Rocket in that he's wacky and doesn't really do anything to put him down there in Sonic Death Row. And even then, Sonic in something like Black Knight doesn't really make a fuss about not killing off his villains (even agreeing on a mission to slay King Arthur) or not condemning one to eternal prison. When he tells Tikal that just sealing Chaos shouldn't be done, he's pointing out it won't really solve the big problem (Chaos being a menace) just lock it up again until some future conqueror breaks it out again (and recall Chaos couldn't be killed no matter what Sonic used on him).

You can bring up his depictions in Western works like SatAM, but the thing is that they, as a rule, have Eggman be ruling Mobius so he's too powerful for Sonic to touch him.

So yeah, the current "debate" happened since they're bringing up an issue that the games traditionally do not try to tackle.

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On Eggman and his like of being Mr. Tinker, I think a big problem that the Doctor has is that he did enjoy it. He enjoyed it a lot. He was wanted, he was appreciated, he was beloved, and people would stand up for him. It all feeds his ego, but it also all shows him that he actually is valuable. The problem that Eggman in my eyes had with it is that he wasn't able to make that impact of his own agency. Without the memory loss he wouldn't have made that choice, and people would have judged him to no end off of who he is and always had been. He can't make the choice to be beloved and that absence of agency in a control freak like him would naturally eat him up. He wants all of what Mr. Tinker had, but he can't have any agency in it. He can however choose to be a villain. He can choose to try and conquer the world and that is not countered by any preexisting POVs. He has total control and agency which allows him to have the control he yearns. Mr. Tinker has everything Eggman wants except the agency to choose that path. Eggman has the agency to choose that path, but because of who he is he can't, and in a way Mr. Tinker is an afront for his need for control even when he has everything Eggman wants. That's why he can both like his time as Mr. Tinker but also prefer to choose villainy. It comes down to personal agency and experience and expectations. Eggman's life choices is what has put him where he is, and has taken away the ability to be Mr. Tinker of his own free will.

Having repeated myself like four or five times there, I did realize though that Eggman does have an interesting conversation he can have with Shadow now. Mainly, that Shadow wanted to "deal" with him for the threat he could be when he was helping society. In short, Shadow became G.U.N. against Gerald and that would be an interesting exchange between the to IMO.

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2 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Aight, new BumbleKast. Anyone wanna sift through it to get the good info?

Is that the second episode with Kureeji Lea? I got through part of and have to pick it back up.

 

Speaking of whom, did I even share her overall outline of Cassia and Clove's arc?

48 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't feel like cataloging the whole thing

But I found this bit interesting

They are being encouraged to not directly reference the games.  Explains some stuff.

Lines up with IDW being "inspired by" the game's.

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3 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Okay. What counts as a direct reference? Because at this point they've referenced every modern game aside from colors at least once. They're not doing the whole "author's note: buy the games" thing Archie postboot did, but they still call back to things a lot.

 

I dont think they want characters to reference events from games or particulars. But they arent stringent about to where it's a full on no. It very much seems like there is information in the games that someone communicating with ian sees as conflicting. The example was zavok being the d6 leader, he said that never came up when he got notes on him.

Also they seem to be wanting to change details about the series, but not concrete on what they want to do. So things may change.

 

Something else interesting. Dissapointing non answer. Some asks "will there be world building" Flynn-bot says "there will be new places in the world they go to, yes" which sounds like, there will technically be new places they might not be named or matter at all.

Silvers time travel makes no sense for how hes supposed to function as a character. Dont think about it, it only causes pain. He would like to explore the funky metal future, but he thinks he cabt really.

If there was a sonic multiverse crossover he doesn't think he could get any other sonic besides classic

Doesn't think he could work with penders and sega to get the penders characters back. He also doesn't think appealing to him would work

Sally acorn's potential bisexuality in future literature would be solely dependent on sega. Also he warns if old characters came back. They would be very different.

That's the stuff I remember

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Sally acorn's potential bisexuality in future literature would be solely dependent on sega. Also he warns if old characters came back. They would be very different.

 

I don't think Sally's sexual preferences are a subject appropriate for a children's comic IMO.  It's good for fan fiction but the official stuff should never go down that road.  Sonic's not about that stuff.

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10 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

I don't think Sally's sexual preferences are a subject appropriate for a children's comic IMO.  It's good for fan fiction but the official stuff should never go down that road.  Sonic's not about that stuff.

Why not.

She likes boys and girls. Amy gets to like a boy. Rouge likes two boys. Why cant she like a boy and a girl. How is that not appropriate? You can suggest sonic isnt about romance,  but even then they have characters clearly smitten for others.

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