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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Man, how pissed off would people be if they actually get into a game. 

 

8 hours ago, Your Vest Friend said:

Well that would be terrible...for the comic.

Currently Tangle and Whisper seem to be the main outlets for some of the stuff that's not allowed for the game characters. If they made the jump into the games (that isn't a mobile game for cross-promotion), that would probably curtail any plans Ian had for them and have a knock on the comic narrative. Again.

 

7 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

It's the same logic that drives why Miyamoto's teams at Nintendo don't use Wario and Waluigi in their Mario platformers. They were made by specific teams for their specific takes on the Mario franchise. Even something as close as a seperate division can drive this wedge in what game makers want to do with their property.

In this case, the Freedom Fighters were made for Sega of America's needs not for Sega of Japan, and for the longest time SoJ went out of their way to scrub most of SoA's contributions to the series out. That also largely goes for the comics continuity which had long stayed outside of modern Sega's direct contribution and still held onto things they were reluctant to give a chance.

Pretty much my observation as well.

 

Though Waluigi is funny because while he primarily existed to give Wario someone to partner up, Miyamoto apparently helped with designing him. Was the Super Mario Land games not just made within Nintendo, though?

18 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

 

4 hours ago, SBR2 said:

He did say July. I don't know a lot about Dash are there like Cutscenes or dialogue boxes or anything like that? 

1. Sonic Dash is still going?

2. Did it tend to have events? I'm a tad surprised they didn't just put them in Speed Battle or that Runners sequel(How is that, btw?)

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@DabigRG

What I am saying is it ain't much to speak on.

It just happens. It kinda sucks we waited so long for that tbh.

Side note:

Spoiler

Folks on the net mad about shadow. I'm curious if they will suggest that shadow go even further in his bad characterization and actively start fighting omega and rouge because he does not value them and see them as friends. I would be curious to see the reaction to that

 

Yes I like to watch the world burn what of it

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15 minutes ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

Aaaand here they come!

 

Okay, so it is for Speed Battle.

Guess this is either opportune timing or they're running out of game characters.

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2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Okay, so it is for Speed Battle.

Guess this is either opportune timing or they're running out of game characters.

Infinite is still not in the game

 

I just want to point that out

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I already said this in a status update, but I think it bears repeating here:

I noticed something. The non-canon characters like the movie characters and the crossover characters have been labeled as "special" or "event" type characters.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SonicWindBlue/status/1277286792559984649


Tangle and Whisper are considered rare types. A type that, so far, has been designated only to canon characters. They aren't even super rare. The tweet also didn't even mention they're from the comics.

Make of this what you will.

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Let's hypothesize on this point. If this is more than just a one off crossover event for a mobile release and is just a step on canonizing Tangle and Whisper, how does the role of the comic change?

For the most part we've understood that the comics represented a spin-off that SEGA usually just lets do it's own thing while regulating enough to keep it in the spirit of the Sonic series as a whole, but if suddenly the possibility of elements being canonized into the series, what will that mean for how the comics and the events within effect the games? Is it possible for plots to be borrowed, or for expanded adaptations of games? Would the comics be suddenly used as a sort of introductory series to Sonic like how the Pokemon anime is for the games?

That's all just hypothetical in the case that this crossover isn't a one-off.

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1 hour ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

Aaaand here they come!

Well I'll be darned. A part of me assumed it was a well made prank, but they're actually here.

 

14 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I know Xander Payne had a much bigger presence in early versions of World Unite because of the editor, but I think the Mr. X connection was already planned.
From what I could tell though, he still had quite a lot of freedom overall. Might be worth asking how him.

Yeah I remember hearing he didn't get any comments on how he designed the comic-exclusive characters (aside from not using Honey Woman's design). Though the point was whether Ian not breaking formula and being overly-rigid in following the game plot was his idea or the editor's.

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That's how it was with Sonic for over a decade and likely other 80-90s IPs too. 
When the franchise is so fresh and yet selling like hot cakes, there's gonna creative liberties allowed that won't be as feasible later.

That makes sense. It was a response toward KingScoopaKoopa's comment that Ian may have been able to follow Ariga's formula, whether Ariga-level of loose adaptation would've been possible by Ian during his Mega Man run under editorial restrictions.

Ariga said it may be different now, but Ian was able to do loose adaptation under SEGA's supervision post-reboot with the FFs and more original characters.

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How so?

.....uh.....let's just say reading the discussion over the direction/characterization/pacing of Ian's writing reminded me (idk why) of how I felt about the Mario pitch and people's reaction to it. Just me being unnecessarily salty. 

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40 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Let's hypothesize on this point. If this is more than just a one off crossover event for a mobile release and is just a step on canonizing Tangle and Whisper, how does the role of the comic change?

For the most part we've understood that the comics represented a spin-off that SEGA usually just lets do it's own thing while regulating enough to keep it in the spirit of the Sonic series as a whole, but if suddenly the possibility of elements being canonized into the series, what will that mean for how the comics and the events within effect the games? Is it possible for plots to be borrowed, or for expanded adaptations of games? Would the comics be suddenly used as a sort of introductory series to Sonic like how the Pokemon anime is for the games?

That's all just hypothetical in the case that this crossover isn't a one-off.

The comics relied heavily on you at least playing Forces. It'll never be a introductory tool, but I could easily see Sega going "if you wanna see more of your favorite characters, read the comics for more details"

Game adaptations are also a given. Archie adapted a decent chunk preboot, and spent a lot of time on unleashed postboot. If an actual game comes out, I'm confident we'll get something from the comics about it. If it's just a remake or a classic game, less so.

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Considering Sonic Team's seeming intent of segregating characters (classic and modern, games and TV show, etc.), it wouldn't surprise me if they also want to keep "game" and "comic" characters separate aside from more "loose" mobile games like these. It's not a perfect 1:1 comparison, but it does fall in line with their recent principles.

At the same time, I wonder if this would perhaps open the door for comic characters to make appearances in, say, Sonic racing games, the "Mario and Sonic" games, and the like.

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26 minutes ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Considering Sonic Team's seeming intent of segregating characters (classic and modern, games and TV show, etc.), it wouldn't surprise me if they also want to keep "game" and "comic" characters separate aside from more "loose" mobile games like these. It's not a perfect 1:1 comparison, but it does fall in line with their recent principles.

At the same time, I wonder if this would perhaps open the door for comic characters to make appearances in, say, Sonic racing games, the "Mario and Sonic" games, and the like.

Well, Sticks did make it into Rio 2016. I think you are basically right though. I imagine the hierarchy for such things would be mobile games, then Olympics games, then stuff like racing games or maybe stuff like a party game or party mode.

Yeah, I'm excited about this, not too lie, even if like Sticks, this just winds up being a one off. Still, it does make IDW Sonic just feel a bit more noteworthy.

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 4:16 PM, KoDaiko said:

I know Whisper was based on the avatar creator in Forces, but it throws me off everytime I see her missing eyelids (and the position).

I got used to it in 2D art, hopefully I can get used to 3D.

I think it's more the areas around her eyes being that color rather than her missing eyelids.

19 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Or why Wario ware characters don't show up in the mario crossover games. Which, they should

It would've been neat to see characters like Mona, Jimmy T, and Ashley pop up in stuff like Mario Kart, yes.

I haven't seen anything from that spinoff series in years, though.

18 hours ago, Silvereyes said:

Honestly, I chose that fight purely because I think there would be alot more backlash if any of the other characters lost outright. In my hypothetical, it would be rewritten in a way that still has Jet choose to die with his teammates that be a coward.

I suppose that makes sense.

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Well, I havn't played Lost World, or even remember any of its marketing. I keep forgetting it's a main line Sonic game even, I can't help but think of it as a spin-off title. I have seen RadicalSoda's review of Lost World and I know he was critical, with Zeena being very much "the girl" of the Deadly 6, with a very stereotypical personality.

That's fair.

I honestly don't remember much of his review after the first part, likely because he released them so far apart for whatever reason. The only further(?) thing I remember is him experimenting with what Zavok would look like within the red jaws.

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I think though that with good writing, her personality can be very entertaining, especially when paired up with her opposite. One little element I love about the Cream vs Zeena fight is this panel:

MkZCxLN.jpg

I think it speaks volumes about Zeena that she thinks Cream is a nice selfless girl just so she can feel morally superior. It probably doesn't occur to Zeena that people can be nice just for the sake of it, that there must be an ulterior motive. Zeena is a stereotype, but I think unlike half the Deadly Six, one that can be utilised very well with good writing.

It was indeed a good showing of her as a villain, which kinda goes to show how Lost World ultimately had nothing for her to do or honestly anything do with her; it's a large part of the reason why I've taken to referring to her and to a lesser extent Zomom as the Filler Two.

It's been opined a few times that she might not have been quite as awful if Amy, Rouge, or yes Cream had been more involved to contrast her with amidst some of her more non-progressive comments, but that is just a big coating to the core issue. 

Also, off topic, but the emerald belt was messin with me for a good couple of minutes before I remembered what it was.

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I mean, for Zeena, I think it is obvious that she is meant to be an attractive woman. She's got the body proportions, the long hair, her foot claws effectively serve as high heels. Even her top half looks almost like a green jumper covering a bust, and her lower half look like black leggings, even though she is naked like all the other Deadly 6. I think the key difference with Zeena is, she is a woman, with monster details laid on top, while the other Zeti look like they were designed from the ground up to be monsters, and have far more exagerated proportions.

You are right at the end of the day. I think part of it is the colouring scheme, it seems completely different from how other Sonic characters are coloured. I think proportions come in again, the fact that the Zeti aren't based on real life animals. Lost World had its art style, and I just don't think it gels with the art style of the usual Sonicverse. That, and well, like I said, I think Zomom and Zor are just ugly, and I mean that in the most basic way possible. But you know, I know nothing about art design.

That's female character designs for ya--they tend to be obvious about their gender.

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I mean, from what I know, Zavok just seems like a very generic villian, who wants to rule the world while bossing around his team. Unless there is something I don't know, there is nothing about Zavok that is remotely interesting.

His reception of being bland evil guy is one that isn't exact, but at the same time hasn't really been helped. Zavok, compared to the other Zeti, is vaguely notable in that he's not really a archetype and it seems Sonic Team's [initial] portrayal of him was to have him be not necessarily rounded, but at least have a few different sides/angles to him.

For starters, his character type per their pattern is intended to be what TvTropes calls the Arrogant Kung Fu Guy--real talk, it took months for it to click for me that that's literally what he is. And a big part of that is, again unlike the other Zeti, it's more peppered around him than literally his characterization: it's why he has that cyan top ponytail, as well as the Asian elements of Dragon Dance(the theme for Sky Road Act 2), the drums at the beginning of his boss theme, and likely Master Zik's very existence. Now his personality does have that undercurrent in it if you know to look for it(being calm and formal in speech, preferring to watch his enemies to learn what he can, getting them as emotional as possible so he can enjoy it in all out battle), but it's generally not drawn attention to.

 And there's little things like his genuine respect for Master Zik, his consideration of the other Zeti as brothers despite using(or with at least Zazz. occasionally abusing) them at times, gradually developing what was almost respect for Sonic(mostly in the Japanese version), his dedication to improving himself per his place among the Zeti(his bio for the Olympics), and for what it's worth, the fact that he's actually kinda grounded to practicality compared to other villains and yet technically an alien who was partially dragged into the big conflict of Sonic's World. Plus, his interactions with Eggman is honestly the most interesting & well-developed part of his(and collectively, perhaps the Deadly Six as a whole) character.

Overall, it makes him a character who could be rather decent and sorta is a bit more complicated than he's given credit for, but combined with the writing of the era he was introduced in not being that great, somewhat confusing to miminalistic portrayals, a bizarre & yet baisc character design(he literally looks like the devil), and him being another serious alternative villain with little flash, he's overall pretty lost

Oh and the idea that he likes world domination is a weird one, to say the least: I know it was on those English trading card things, but nothing about the character or the Zeti in general suggests they actually care about that.

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Well, yes, you are right. It's just more a comment about how Sega can seemingly be very arbituary about what characters they want and what characters they basically exile. Infinite seems to of been banished from existence for the time being due to Forces not being received well, but despite Lost World not being a huge success, and I've yet to see anyone be more than lukewarm about any of the Zeti, Sega seems to want to keep Zavok around. I think it says alot Zavok got the third spot in the villian's team in Team Sonic Racing, I do not believe that would of happened if someone at Sega didn't like him.

It's probably some mix of favoritism/reverence, utility, and most noticeable of all, convenience.
Similar thing happened with Silver, but the different is most of Silver's appearances had him as a major factor in the story or as part of the greater whole as it were. Zavok being a new recurring villain is noteworthy, but otherwise most of his subsequent appearances have had him as just another boss fight or just another playable character with little to no role in the plot and/or minimal input as a character: he's effectively just another recurring character, one they put little effort into compared to the other characters even in these times.

Meanwhile, most Sonic villains tend to be or become super powerful forces of nature before being killed off by a super state hero as a climactic wrap up for the story, while the Zeti are quippy dicks just kinda vanish in a puff of smoke or fly away in-game before the actual final boss and get a probably not gonna actually happen sequel hook associated with them rather than their demise being a clean cut to the resolution. They seemed to have the Deadly Six as characters who could just be reused by design. 

Infinite is sorta similar in just being removed from play before Eggman takes center stage, to be fair, but the distinction is how he was written out a bit more dramatically within a cutscene. That and his particular impact as a villain/character needs more explanation than "asshole who lives in this space and can do this," being derived from the Phantom Ruby and all(which also gets used by the final boss and is seemingly destroyed anyway). Now it's possible that they do intend to bring him back, but a combination of him needing more exposition and/or having a more significant return in mind is why they're keeping him under wraps. 

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Yeah, I know the PC port of Lost World is meant to be pretty half assed. (Surprised Sega bothered really, especially when alot of Sonic games havn't been ported, like Unleashed and Colours.) I guess it's just the fact I bought it on sale, I know it isn't very good, and honestly, it's not a concept I think looks good. I just bought because I am a Sonic fan. Same with Forces actually, own that too, yet to touch it, despite it being very short.

I should get around to it, just for the sake of completion.

Oh, is that it? 

I mean, I'd kinda assume it's because it was an easier port thanks to the graphic style and resused geometry in places.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Infinite is still not in the game

 

I just want to point that out

Infinite is very much a good go to in this instance, though I'm thinking more of Marine, Eggman, the other three Zeti, the Werehog, Mephiles, Sticks, and maybe even someone like Shahra or Lumina. 

Most of the big names(and Zeena & Classic) are in there, but there's still a decent couple left to go.

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1 hour ago, KoDaiko said:

 

Yeah I remember hearing he didn't get any comments on how he designed the comic-exclusive characters (aside from not using Honey Woman's design). Though the point was whether Ian not breaking formula and being overly-rigid in following the game plot was his idea or the editor's.

That makes sense. It was a response toward KingScoopaKoopa's comment that Ian may have been able to follow Ariga's formula, whether Ariga-level of loose adaptation would've been possible by Ian during his Mega Man run under editorial restrictions.

Hm...maybe.

Airing on the side of it being at least partially his choice, he might have felt obligated to follow the general rhythm of the games early on to really make the comic feel like the game brought to life or something.

1 hour ago, KoDaiko said:

Ariga said it may be different now, but Ian was able to do loose adaptation under SEGA's supervision post-reboot with the FFs and more original characters.

I mean, it probably helps that most of the games they did that with had little plot to their stories.

1 hour ago, KoDaiko said:

.....uh.....let's just say reading the discussion over the direction/characterization/pacing of Ian's writing reminded me (idk why) of how I felt about the Mario pitch and people's reaction to it. Just me being unnecessarily salty. 

Oh dear, was it not good or something?

2 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

I already said this in a status update, but I think it bears repeating here:

I noticed something. The non-canon characters like the movie characters and the crossover characters have been labeled as "special" or "event" type characters.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SonicWindBlue/status/1277286792559984649


Tangle and Whisper are considered rare types. A type that, so far, has been designated only to canon characters. They aren't even super rare. The tweet also didn't even mention they're from the comics.

Make of this what you will.

Oh fuck me, I just remembered SEGA had a sizable hand in their designs.

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2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

The comics relied heavily on you at least playing Forces. It'll never be a introductory tool, but I could easily see Sega going "if you wanna see more of your favorite characters, read the comics for more details"

Game adaptations are also a given. Archie adapted a decent chunk preboot, and spent a lot of time on unleashed postboot. If an actual game comes out, I'm confident we'll get something from the comics about it. If it's just a remake or a classic game, less so.

Well it's still early in the comic's lifetime. After this whole Zombot problem is taken care of, they could do more than a few one off issues. And it helps that IDW prioritizes GNs over floppies, so collecting will be much easier than with Archie.

Also on the topic of game adaptation, it may be possible that IDW could start getting game material early, working with concept art of future games which they could adapt into long term stories, perhaps incorporating things the game couldn't cover that was on the cutting room floor. Something like the Pre-Forces comics, but on a grander scale. That would definitely make the wait between announcements much more bearable, and could do a lot to help with more lackluster story elements in the games.

1 hour ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Considering Sonic Team's seeming intent of segregating characters (classic and modern, games and TV show, etc.), it wouldn't surprise me if they also want to keep "game" and "comic" characters separate aside from more "loose" mobile games like these. It's not a perfect 1:1 comparison, but it does fall in line with their recent principles.

At the same time, I wonder if this would perhaps open the door for comic characters to make appearances in, say, Sonic racing games, the "Mario and Sonic" games, and the like.

The thing is the comic is definitely in a more unique situation, because it's in a similarly vague place as the games, and unlike something like Sonic X, it isn't stuck in a short term licensing deal for a limited number of episodes.

It takes place squarely in the game universe as we see, with similar adaptation of mechanics from games, but without the huge alterations previous adaptations had. And with how SEGA have been working with IDW, it's almost like they're acknowledging these comics as a serious branch for engaging with Sonic, though with definite differences for sure.

We could be in a similar situation as the Pokemon anime, where it stands as a huge branch worldwide for exposing people to the world of Pokemon and filling in details for kids that maybe the games don't touch upon. And the anime usually gets material from TPC very early in production to get to work on the anime.

Again though, all hypothetical. At the least it's fun to theorize even if it's implausible.

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I don't think (not anymore) it means anything, but yeah they are being added to the game, they aren't "special event characters" like the 3 from the movie. 

Plus, IDWSonic is basically set in Modern Sonic, so Tangle and Whisper are built around Modern Sonic, more or less, besides fitting a lot.

As Ian, Evan, Katie and everyone at SEGA said, it's a start and it could lead possibly to more.

The reason why you don't get Sticks anymore in stuff is because Boom is dead, and Sticks was from that continuity, with Boom dead, she's gone too, with Archie dead, the Freedom Fighters are lost and forgotten too, besides being tied to the Archie vs SEGA difficulties. 

I just want to celebrate that these 2 cool, strong fan favorites are in 2 mobile games.

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I don't think suddenly the games will become super reliant on the comics. Maybe cameos here and there, at the most, maybe adaptation of more important characters (Tangle, Whisper, etc).

I think the biggest thing being influenced will be the way the comics are presented to us, and what they mean for how we as fans interact or perceive them. For starters, instead of one-off issues like the Team Sonic Racing comic, or the old special issues, could we be given long scale arcs in advance to build up to the release of the game with revelation of game mechanics or story-beats?

Unlike animation, comics don't need to be planned out so far in advance, and are not so rigid with what changes can or can't be made, so long as the approval process goes smoothly, and if SEGA keep a good relationship with the IDW gang, it could lead to them being more important as Sonic material to consume. It also helps that the comics can provide consistency that the games don't always have, due to the fact that the writing team especially for Sonic have been more intimate and cooperative with SEGA.

IDW's the best company for this took, considering how good they are with just compiling these series together in their huge collections. (Let's get our omnibus already dammit!)

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1 hour ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

The reason why you don't get Sticks anymore in stuff is because Boom is dead, and Sticks was from that continuity, with Boom dead, she's gone too, with Archie dead, the Freedom Fighters are lost and forgotten too, besides being tied to the Archie vs SEGA difficulties. 

I would love for Sticks to become a canon immigrant.

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It might also help that as it stands, IDW Sonic is basically the only Sonic thing happening right now. No announced games, the movie sequel is at least 2 years away, we've yet to see the rumoured cartoon series materialise. Might as well mine the one Sonic thing going on right now, and probably good idea to do it while IDW Sonic is still so young. Arguably it would be more difficult for such a thing to happen if IDW Sonic had far more issues and stories behind it.

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