Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[KoDaiko]

Seeing that everything got messy and confusing once they tried to connect/explain everything, I think they should've kept the entire thing ambiguous like the old days and roll with it.

Like Kirby, Mario, or any other series that usually have little to no connection between each game (unless convenient) but still feels related.

[SBR2]

22 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

I'm telling you right now that it's not going to work out in the way you're asking. Given how Zelda fans are still arguing about the Zelda timeline and how what was established in the Hystoria contradicted itself maybe it's not the best idea. 

I mean at least Sonic is a more simple franchise than Zelda. Really at most it'd be some minor lore expansion and a timeline. Probably finally confirm that Classic Sonic’s "other dimension" is a split timeline due to the Time Eater.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:35 PM, calamityCons said:

You can say that all you like, but sadly it legitimately is not that easy. Penders set a precedent to Sega of Japan with his antics, and he has left a mark on the Sega brand whether we like it or not. Many of the mandates are made in direct response to Penders’ lawsuit and the characters he wanted to keep. The no family members mandate, the no alternate outfits mandate, the no crying sonic mandate, etc. They are rightfully nervous and mistrusting of the writers for the american sonic comics specifically because of the years long legal battles Archie and Sega were forced to undergo.

Basically, it is easier said than done because of this situation. It is not fair, and Sega SHOULD put more trust in the IDW creative team’s writing chops and characterization. But I honestly cannot blame them for being cautious about this, if I had a property that I loved, and someone from another country that doesn’t speak my language decides to work under me, create fan characters, and then sue for the rights to their fan characters, then demand royalties and mandatory consultation whenever I needed to use those fan characters? That’s only the basics of what Penders was demanding, and I still would find myself becoming more guarded and cautious about my property if i were in those shoes. 

It sucks and I hate it, but like. You can’t just undo that kind of impact yknow?

I’d almost buy that paranoia if things were handled as carelessly as it was with Penders to begin with, but this time Sega’s covered their bases even before IDW got the license.

At this point, they can actually afford to loosen the leash a bit since as far as things goes, Ian can’t pull a Penders even if he wanted to—any attempt would be dead on arrival. Doesn’t help that their input has a more detrimental effect than Ian following along with what the characters are actually capable of (like the issue with Shadow during this arc, for example).

[Pengi]

On 8/12/2020 at 2:35 AM, calamityCons said:

You can say that all you like, but sadly it legitimately is not that easy. Penders set a precedent to Sega of Japan with his antics, and he has left a mark on the Sega brand whether we like it or not. Many of the mandates are made in direct response to Penders’ lawsuit and the characters he wanted to keep. The no family members mandate, the no alternate outfits mandate, the no crying sonic mandate, etc.

Those guidelines have nothing to do with Ken Penders. Sega doesn't want anyone messing around with their characters, changing how they look and act or giving them a backstory (parents etc.) that isn't in the games.

[Shadowlax]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:35 PM, calamityCons said:

You can say that all you like, but sadly it legitimately is not that easy. Penders set a precedent to Sega of Japan with his antics, and he has left a mark on the Sega brand whether we like it or not. Many of the mandates are made in direct response to Penders’ lawsuit and the characters he wanted to keep. The no family members mandate, the no alternate outfits mandate, the no crying sonic mandate, etc. They are rightfully nervous and mistrusting of the writers for the american sonic comics specifically because of the years long legal battles Archie and Sega were forced to undergo.

Basically, it is easier said than done because of this situation. It is not fair, and Sega SHOULD put more trust in the IDW creative team’s writing chops and characterization. But I honestly cannot blame them for being cautious about this, if I had a property that I loved, and someone from another country that doesn’t speak my language decides to work under me, create fan characters, and then sue for the rights to their fan characters, then demand royalties and mandatory consultation whenever I needed to use those fan characters? That’s only the basics of what Penders was demanding, and I still would find myself becoming more guarded and cautious about my property if i were in those shoes. 

It sucks and I hate it, but like. You can’t just undo that kind of impact yknow?

 

On 8/13/2020 at 12:50 PM, Pengi said:

Those guidelines have nothing to do with Ken Penders. Sega doesn't want anyone messing around with their characters, changing how they look and act or giving them a backstory (parents etc.) that isn't in the games.

I feel like its a wee bit more complicated than what both of you are saying.

Outright, yes. Ken Penders had a gigantic effect on how they management spin off materials. No, not all of the issues he caused are soley because of the lawsuit. Its also because of the OOC characterizations.

But this is very key here, it wasn't just ken. While I do not want to downplay the sheer effect ken has had on how sega deals with some of its material. I do think focusing soley around ken misses some finer details. In particular, there are some Ian based issues that sega may have issues with as well. There are a combinations of things that got us to this point . If you hear Ian speak on things you will notice him say he used to get away with a bunch of things he just can't anymore. I think part of the reason sega is so strict is to crack down what they feel are misinterpretations sure. But I think an element that gets lost when you focus soley on ken as to why those interpretations aren't particularly favorable for sega. Or in some cases what ever a particular branch of it wants.

Its also weird to have this discussion because we are missing information, information that Ian himself or other people working on the book may not have. A good example is shadow right? He's kinda weird. A lot of the fanbase has decided " Sega USA man had a bad idea" , and while that's not unrealistic focusing on one potential aspect ignores if you pay attention to how they want him to be characterized it could actually be  not just SOA but rather a general response and over correction to how Ian Used shadow in archie. Not Ken, Ian.  I just feel like focusing on one focal point as the " problem " kinda obfuscates the issue of us lacking information. There could and usually are a number of things that lead us to this point.

[Pengi]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like its a wee bit more complicated than what both of you are saying.

I was responding to the statement that Ken Penders' legal action was the catalyst for "The no family members mandate, the no alternate outfits mandate, the no crying sonic mandate, etc."

It's nonsense. Those guidelines were in effect before the legal issues with Penders. When Sonic Team got given more control over the Sonic brand, they took it.

Yuji Naka didn't like Sonic having siblings in Sonic Underground. But there was nothing Sonic Team could do about it at the time.

This is all absolutely normal, run of the mill stuff for a licensed product. Licensees, more often than not, don't get carte blanche to change the way characters look or give them long lost brothers or change their personalities.

[Empire88]

I feel like it is in between. 

Licensed content absolutely has mandates all the time from any brand/series. It is so people who are using the property don't do things that are not in line with how the characters are officially presented and so there aren't major altercations. So the existence of mandates/guidelines isn't problematic on it's own. 

My issue with the guidlines for the comic is that from what I have heard, it seems that SEGA/Sonic Team is so restrictive and overly protective (moreso than other brands), to the point it seems like the characters are relatively static as compared to dynamic. Maybe in response to the initial Archie run, SEGA started to be more strict with their property when they saw an opportunity in the post-Genisis wave reboot (it seems that way). But now it feels like they went so far the other way out of fear that we get rules that are reductive. For example, for the longest time they were scared of even using Cream. 

[DabigRG]

It is indeed a combination of both.

Sega like any company has a vision they want to maintain for their franchise and as the years go by, what that vision is and how thorough they are about what can fit it changes accordingly. The reason Archie and the cartoons were able to become such standout deviations is because the franchise was very hot out the oven and as long as Sonic was front n center, they were free to do whatever unless Sega specifically had a request.

The Knuckles comic is the biggest case of this, as Penders apparently only agreed to write for that book because he realized he'd have more freedom compared to the main Sonic stories. Which in addition to explaining a LOT about what all came out of that, naturally implies that Sega endorsed the book's existence themselves due to Knuckles popularity but then had no idea what they actually wanted for the character at the time and so said yes to what he proposed the series involve. Which to give them a little slack, probably didn't sound as ridiculous as it ended up becoming in hindsight, but the fact is they said yes to The Last Echidna having a series where generations of two divided colonies of his people are not only alive, but frequent powerful presences in the series overall.

Heck, we know that Sally was a character they didn't have a hand in making (as far as we know) that they had interest in doing more with, specifically directing Penders to do a Miniseries starring her down to what the plot could be, told him not to kill her off in Endgame even after that didn't go well, allowed a few game demonstrations that would include her, and supposedly still had enough approval towards her that apparently helped Spark of Life get produced the way did. I'd imagine it's because she fit what was cool from a female perspective during the nineties and maybe someone on the approval team had been around for over a decade.

Back to the point at hand though, Sonic as a series has a lot more established definition to it compared to then and as such, most spinoff materials produced or even ongoing by the 2010s(the stigma against parents first cropped up near the end of Iron Dominion, for instance) has to either meet that stricter enforcement or in Boom's case, be different enough to operate independently. They allowed Archie to continue what it was doing through grandfather clause until Penders made it necessary to drop most of that to be on the safe side and seemingly eased up on some game restrictions around the same time(Gemerl, Chip, Dark Gaia, and apparently the Nocturnus were allowed for the reboot after being vetoed from appearing preboot), but then Archie's evident apathy towards the series compared to their own brands and IDWs positive buzz gave them the excuse to go whole hog on creative management. 

Which they're still technically looser about for big things, for record: Compare what IDW allowed for Eggman and Cream vs Gemerl and one of Whisper's teammates.

[Empire88]

Yeah exactly. And I definitely expected them to get stricter with Sonic because like you said the series now has an established image and style. Which on its own isn't an issue. It just seems they seem a little....too protective with some small rules here or there. But that could just be my read.

About Cream though, weren't they strict with her appearing when IDW started? I think Ian had to keep pushing. 

[Kaotic Kanine]

55 minutes ago, prowerboy26 said:

About Cream though, weren't they strict with her appearing when IDW started? I think Ian had to keep pushing. 

I don't think that was the case. The cover for Issue 8 (or I think it was 12? Whichever started the "Battle for Angel Island") had Cream appearing along with the rest of the cast, showing she (as well as Big and Omega) were intended to debut by the end of the first story arc. But then they decided to delay their debuts so those characters would be introduced in their own issues so as to stand out more, whereas they would've gotten lost in the shuffle (in a sense) being introduced at the start of the finale of Season 1, whilst that story also had to juggle interactions for the previously established characters 

Not gonna lie, though, I really wish Ian and the IDW crew compromised a way to introduce Cream, Omega, and Big in IDW Sonic's first season. Not only would so those three could participate in the "Battle for Angel Island" alongside literally every other major cast member, but I can't help but feel their introductions in the midst of the Metal Virus wasn't the best choice. Like, while Cream ultimately got great spotlight throughout the Metal Virus, it would've been even better if she was established before things went to hell? And it especially would've made Cheese's sacrifice more compelling to new readers, since they'd actually get to know the little guy before he's essentially killed off. Meanwhile, Omega found himself literally torn to pieces in his debut, while Big was first introduced to us already as a Zombot 

But I digress. Cream certainly feels more free in IDW than she was in Archie, given that she actually got to do cool stuff in IDW. Meanwhile in Archie... Well, you all know how I feel, and I won't go into that

[Kuzu]

It's kind of a consequence of the book just diving headfirst into its overarching story arcs without really establishing it's characters; the first four issues introduced Sonic, Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Tangle, and Blaze and then immediately afterwards, we're thrown into the first story arc of figuring out what happened to Eggma. There's not much room to breathe, and even worse, this had really bad effects on subsequent character introductions. 

The Chaotix, Shadow, and Rouge are introduced in issues 5 and 6, but Shadow is the only one who really gets his character fleshed out given the bulk of Issue 6 is focused on him and Sonic, while the Chaotix or Rouge don't get much between these two issues. 

[Shadowlax]

I would argue shadow doesn't even get that. Not even because of my already listed issues with that issue and its writing. (writing set up for something rather than writing a character)  Forget all that , issue 19 just says " none of that characterization mattered. " and effectively throws that entire issue out of the window. I personally don't think a lot of characters actually get characterization they get rushed for some big plot. I think its part of the reason we are doing shorter stories. Ian Flynn just had the IP owner pull his whole shit out from under him, and his shit was already flawed. Maybe tell shorter narratives to establish who they are before sega goes " No " again.

Can't wait for sega to decide that blaze is actually just an physician named princess and not a princess or some shit

[Kuzu]

I'm mostly ignoring the stuff that came later; the point being that some characters were better established than others while others got bits and pieces every now and then. 

[Shadowlax]

Fair enough.

 

Comic question. If you could introduce a new character. What would they do

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

I 

Not gonna lie, though, I really wish Ian and the IDW crew compromised a way to introduce Cream, Omega, and Big in IDW Sonic's first season. Not only would so those three could participate in the "Battle for Angel Island" alongside literally every other major cast member, but I can't help but feel their introductions in the midst of the Metal Virus wasn't the best choice. Like, while Cream ultimately got great spotlight throughout the Metal Virus, it would've been even better if she was established before things went to hell? And it especially would've made Cheese's sacrifice more compelling to new readers, since they'd actually get to know the little guy before he's essentially killed off. Meanwhile, Omega found himself literally torn to pieces in his debut, while Big was first introduced to us already as a Zombot 

Yeah, that's a general point of criticism for the Metal Virus Saga.

Like he did a well enough job introducing Cream's family and Gemerl within the arc, but then while pull off a tough balance decently when you can do an easy step better I guess?

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 I think its part of the reason we are doing shorter stories. Ian Flynn just had the IP owner pull his whole shit out from under him, and his shit was already flawed. Maybe tell shorter narratives to establish who they are before sega goes " No " again.

Hey Mr Bitters

Oh, correction: it was the editor of IDW wanting to give Evan Stanley a chance to write a bunch of stuff since she's expressed interest in doing so.

[Shadowlax]

Things can serve multiple purposes?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Things can serve multiple purposes?

I want you and everyone else reading this comic and posting in this topic to remember this very statement from here on out.

[Dr. Detective]

I don't agree that Cream's debut needed to be a part of the jumble that happened in the first season. Her debut was fine. 

Although, I love the idea of stretching things out, making the stories longer, and giving characters more scenes but when you do that people complain about it taking forever and moving too slow so hopefully we've gone past the point of needing anyone else in the main cast established.

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Things can serve multiple purposes?

That they can: saying this once again this weekend SDA, the order of events can a say a decent amount about how things come to be and under what climate. I just can't see that being a reason considering what we've already known about the timeline and process of production for IDW compared to Archie.

I am curious how things like Pirate Plunder Panic, Spark of Life, and this upcoming Chao arc got pitched for lincensing approval, now that I think about it, but we'll at least find out the latter.

29 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I don't agree that Cream's debut needed to be a part of the jumble that happened in the first season. Her debut was fine. 

Although, I love the idea of stretching things out, making the stories longer, and giving characters more scenes but when you do that people complain about it taking forever and moving too slow so hopefully we've gone past the point of needing anyone else in the main cast established.

I suppose. Though the point about her, Omega, and Big has more to do with how people feel we should've gotten more downtown and side story issues after Metal was dealt.

Not only would it allow time to flesh out the material that were introduced and also introduce their smaller names, but it'd also be breathing room to establish who they all are and what the world is before it all gets threatened when Eggman returns with the completed Metal Virus.

Could've also cleaned up the finale issues according to get more of them since you're not squeezing in setup for that and also maybe free up Mr. Tinker for a few more appearances.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose. Though the point about her, Omega, and Big has more to do with how people feel we should've gotten more downtown and side story issues after Metal was dealt.

Not only would it allow time to flesh out the material that were introduced and also introduce their smaller names, but it'd also be breathing room to establish who they all are and what the world is before it all gets threatened when Eggman returns with the completed Metal Virus.

Could've also cleaned up the finale issues according to get more of them since you're not squeezing in setup for that and also maybe free up Mr. Tinker for a few more appearances.

You say that now, but at the time of that first arc coming out the issues introducing the characters wasn't met with a ton of enthusiasm on here by some. There was a definite push for something more serious or meaningful to happen so that they could start caring about the scrapes they were getting into. Doing what you're suggesting right now would not have been met with a ton of acceptance at the time.

It's interesting because I always champion things like this. I like the idea of longer arcs and more chances to show this stuff off but a lot of people don't and yet still suggest ideas that would only make getting to this point an even longer endeavor anyway. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Long arcs aren’t exactly the problem—or at least they shouldn’t be, but misblaming things tends to be a bad habit among a lot of people.

It’s really the pacing. Like, if the pandemic didn’t hit at the time it did, for example, the Metal Virus arc would’ve finished up sooner.

And to further emphasize how long arcs aren’t bad, let’s not forget House of Cards and it’s problems—it’s among the shortest arcs written, and yet we’ve given it just as much flak as the Iron Dominion arc (which I actually liked, but can’t deny that it had a ton of issues).

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

You say that now, but at the time of that first arc coming out the issues introducing the characters wasn't met with a ton of enthusiasm on here by some. There was a definite push for something more serious or meaningful to happen so that they could start caring about the scrapes they were getting into. Doing what you're suggesting right now would not have been met with a ton of acceptance at the time.

Oh, was it? I must admit I'm blanking overall and just remember smaller complaints.

I mean it's possible to do serious and meaningful without going plague for an extended period of time and all, but that's besides the point.

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

It's interesting because I always champion things like this. I like the idea of longer arcs and more chances to show this stuff off but a lot of people don't and yet still suggest ideas that would only make getting to this point an even longer endeavor anyway. 

.

[NeoZDuwang]

Oh is that...

Spoiler

CHACLON!?

 

[Silvereyes]

I've followed this thread on and off since the IDW issues started coming out, and yeah, there definetly was a lot of complaints about each issue featuring the formula of Sonic + reintroducing an ally for an issue. It was only when the metal virus arc really kicked off, and we've now had a few issues with Sonic barely in them that particular issue has vanished. Not to mention from the summaries of #31-#34, it sounds like we're going to be getting some plots with Sonic not really involved in them, so it definetly feels like the book is confident enough to let other characters carry a story without needing Sonic present.

[DabigRG]

3 minutes ago, Silvereyes said:

I've followed this thread on and off since the IDW issues started coming out, and yeah, there definetly was a lot of complaints about each issue featuring the formula of Sonic + reintroducing an ally for an issue. It was only when the metal virus arc really kicked off, and we've now had a few issues with Sonic barely in them that particular issue has vanished. Not to mention from the summaries of #31-#34, it sounds like we're going to be getting some plots with Sonic not really involved in them, so it definetly feels like the book is confident enough to let other characters carry a story without needing Sonic present.

Okay, that's one of the things I remember and it's also what I was trying to get across when I talk about having some more breathing room between the two sagas.

I just used Mr. Tinker as a quick example of something I recall people felt was wasted and wished there could've been more done with it before he inevitably became Eggman again.

That honestly applies for a couple of characters that would've been great to show now that the war was over: spotlight for the Chaotix daily operation, what Shadow is up to after all the fighting, and yes, adventures with any of the three dummied out characters. But the one I personally recall bringing up a couple of times was Amy working with the Restoration to fix the world, which could've given us some insight on her time as a leader and more importantly, shown her just helping people return to their lives.