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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Side note, it's funny that how important "OCs" are gender/affinity divided. Starline, Mimic and Skuns are evil, while Tangle, Whisper, Jewel and upcoming Belle are good.

Oh, good observation. Now that you mention it, it's starting to bothering me 🙁 (just a little). I guess they want to play safe for now? With how small the cast numbers are, I can see some vocal minority fuss over any new female characters portrayed negatively in any way.

Related,

Spoiler

I was/am hoping Belle would be a villain or neutral. Her being a robot? created by Eggman/Mr. Tinker has so much potential.

It reminds me of some ideas Ian had for Archie Mega Man: robots sort of having free will but is forced to obey orders and is shown struggling/suffering, having an alliance/identity-crisis, a robot gradually learning to act & think like a human, etc...

 

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It is probably just a coincidence/oversight. They mentioned they wanted more female protagonists because they felt that Amy was the only one barring Blaze (but Blaze apparently can only be used in certain situations).  I have to remember where they said that though. And in the Post-Genesis wave Archie run they had introduced Cassia and Clove along with Breezie who could definitely be perceived as having many negative qualities. With IDW they probably haven't realized the imbalance yet. 

I know it is easy to think that people are "too sensitive" these days, but respectfully 99% of people aren't that sensitive. I truly don't think it is that deep.

On another note, I really like that brotherly moment between Sonic and Tails in the preview. I am looking forward to the next two arcs. Stylistically, sort of reminds me of "Champions" in a way, which was one of my favorite arcs.

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3 hours ago, prowerboy26 said:

It is probably just a coincidence/oversight. They mentioned they wanted more female protagonists because they felt that Amy was the only one barring Blaze (but Blaze apparently can only be used in certain situations).  I have to remember where they said that though. And in the Post-Genesis wave Archie run they had introduced Cassia and Clove along with Breezie who could definitely be perceived as having many negative qualities. With IDW they probably haven't realized the imbalance yet. 

I know it is easy to think that people are "too sensitive" these days, but respectfully 99% of people aren't that sensitive. I truly don't think it is that deep.

On another note, I really like that brotherly moment between Sonic and Tails in the preview. I am looking forward to the next two arcs. Stylistically, sort of reminds me of "Champions" in a way, which was one of my favorite arcs.

You have a point, but that is why I said "vocal minority" :P I know not everyone thinks that, but watching many sh*t happen in various fandoms makes me think it could be one of the reasons. I'm look forward to what kind of female villains (& any male support casts) they can add. 

IMO Post-reboot Archie is a little different since they got a large cast pretty quickly. Cassia & many of the other Eggbosses were also portrayed as redeemable/sympathetic & not really bad (forced to work under Eggman). Breezie was more neutral with a bunch of "positive" traits: threatening, powerful, confident, cunning, and flirty.

15 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

This cute picture was shown on the October 2020 Fanart Page of Sonic Channel. According to the site, this was created by しょうゆさし.

[art]

I know Sonic Channel accepts obscure characters (even Archie ones), but it's nice to see IDW get love & approval.

Not important but しょうゆさし is probably 醤油差し = Soy sauce dispenser lol.

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It's weird that the actually properly villainous post-reboot Archie female villains weren't brought up (Thunderbolt, Abyss and Carrotia). 

Still, as of now we've only got three new villain units (The Skunk Brothers, Starline and Mimic), so as long as they've got something lined up in the near future it shouldn't be that egregious. Although no idea how Clutch will affect things.

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1 hour ago, Your Vest Friend said:

It's weird that the actually properly villainous post-reboot Archie female villains weren't brought up (Thunderbolt, Abyss and Carrotia). 

Still, as of now we've only got three new villain units (The Skunk Brothers, Starline and Mimic), so as long as they've got something lined up in the near future it shouldn't be that egregious. Although no idea how Clutch will affect things.

Oh yeah. I don't remember readers' reactions to them that much compared with the other female villains (which were mostly positive).

Carrotia was constantly brainwashed to be a pawn so hard to say anything, I literally cannot remember what Abyss did, and Thunderbolt was.....the most loyal I guess? But was kind of portrayed as a creepy joke compared with Starline's.

I wonder if Clutch would be a one-time thing (since his current role is plot-specific), or gonna be a frequently appearing character.

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1 hour ago, Your Vest Friend said:

It's weird that the actually properly villainous post-reboot Archie female villains weren't brought up (Thunderbolt, Abyss and Carrotia). 

Still, as of now we've only got three new villain units (The Skunk Brothers, Starline and Mimic), so as long as they've got something lined up in the near future it shouldn't be that egregious. Although no idea how Clutch will affect things.

Oh yeah I forgot about them lol. I went with the few that I remember off the top of my head. But yeah those are relatively recent villainous female characters as well. Thanks for reminding me.

@KoDaiko I hope my comment didn't come off as antagonistic btw. I just wanted to respectfully counter the notion about sensitivity.

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Ian mentioned when creating Tangle (Whisper wasn't a thing yet) that female characters in Sonic are not free or simple or I'm not sure how he worded it, but I remember each case:

Amy is limited for being a love interest to Sonic

Blaze is limited because she is from another dimension and only shows up sometimes

Rouge is sexualized and kinda is an anti-hero

Cream is no fighter, she is basically a villager, and eventually became a minor character, like background character almost

So yeah, that's why Tangle and Whisper are liked so much by SEGA, they are simple, with fresh designs, pretty powerful with their moves/weapons and have strong personalities without being token girls, plus sometimes they work in pair, and the pairing works well.

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10 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

Oh, good observation. Now that you mention it, it's starting to bothering me 🙁 (just a little). I guess they want to play safe for now? With how small the cast numbers are, I can see some vocal minority fuss over any new female characters portrayed negatively in any way.

Related,

  Hide contents

I was/am hoping Belle would be a villain or neutral. Her being a robot? created by Eggman/Mr. Tinker has so much potential.

It reminds me of some ideas Ian had for Archie Mega Man: robots sort of having free will but is forced to obey orders and is shown struggling/suffering, having an alliance/identity-crisis, a robot gradually learning to act & think like a human, etc...

 

That's an interesting perspective.

Also, I kinda miss Archie Megaman.

9 hours ago, prowerboy26 said:

 And in the Post-Genesis wave Archie run they had introduced Cassia and Clove along with Breezie who could definitely be perceived as having many negative qualities. 

Oh?

9 hours ago, prowerboy26 said:

On another note, I really like that brotherly moment between Sonic and Tails in the preview. I am looking forward to the next two arcs. Stylistically, sort of reminds me of "Champions" in a way, which was one of my favorite arcs.

Peculiar little moment, that was.

6 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

 

IMO Post-reboot Archie is a little different since they got a large cast pretty quickly. Cassia & many of the other Eggbosses were also portrayed as redeemable/sympathetic & not really bad (forced to work under Eggman). Breezie was more neutral with a bunch of "positive" traits: threatening, powerful, confident, cunning, and flirty.

That's a good point.

6 hours ago, Your Vest Friend said:

It's weird that the actually properly villainous post-reboot Archie female villains weren't brought up (Thunderbolt, Abyss and Carrotia). 

Still, as of now we've only got three new villain units (The Skunk Brothers, Starline and Mimic), so as long as they've got something lined up in the near future it shouldn't be that egregious. Although no idea how Clutch will affect things.

Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that.

Plus there were also the returning Conquering, Nephtys, Sonar, Wendy, Blade, and Opal on the villains side, while the good had Coral, Pearly, Thorn, Dulcy's quartet, Echo, and Undina.

5 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

Oh yeah. I don't remember readers' reactions to them that much compared with the other female villains (which were mostly positive).

Carrotia was constantly brainwashed to be a pawn so hard to say anything, I literally cannot remember what Abyss did, and Thunderbolt was.....the most loyal I guess? But was kind of portrayed as a creepy joke compared with Starline's.

(Need to rearrange these)

Clutch is a female and part of me kinda doubts it at this point.

5 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I wonder if Clutch would be a one-time thing (since his current role is plot-specific), or gonna be a frequently appearing character.

I think the Witchcarters just got looked over because of all the Egg Bosses as well.

Abyss was a pirate who betrayed the Otter's crew to join Eggman for greater pillaging resources.

Thunderbolt was generally humorous, but a few logically found her annoying.

 

2 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

Ian mentioned when creating Tangle (Whisper wasn't a thing yet) that female characters in Sonic are not free or simple or I'm not sure how he worded it, but I remember each case:

Amy is limited for being a love interest to Sonic

Blaze is limited because she is from another dimension and only shows up sometimes

Rouge is sexualized and kinda is an anti-hero

Cream is no fighter, she is basically a villager, and eventually became a minor character, like background character almost

So yeah, that's why Tangle and Whisper are liked so much by SEGA, they are simple, with fresh designs, pretty powerful with their moves/weapons and have strong personalities without being token girls, plus sometimes they work in pair, and the pairing works well.

Oh, I remember. It was in an interview or something around the start of the book where they said Tangle was there because the series didn't have "a real Kickbutt female character."

Which, not to be that guy, but that's Sega's own damn fault.

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I would argue that 4 varied female central is still pretty good * unconvincing cough* Mario *cough*. Many franchises struggle are proud to have 1 token ass kicking lady, like Tawna 2.0 in Crash (which to be fair, no one in this universe is walking bad ass)

And honestly I don't see Tangle kicking more asses than Amy, Rouge or Blaze. She's more of newcomer rookie, mostly acting as support to bigger heroes. Even in her own mini she was almost incompetent.

And since when being sexy antihero means you can't kick ass? I don't remember Han Solo being a wuss or a virgin.

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Its kind of sign of the changing of times; hyper-sexualized femme fatales aren't considered acceptable role models nowadays.

Which is weird, because they've severely downplayed how shady Rouge is, to the point where she can show up and talk with the heroes and nobody seems to have a problem with it. She was far more amoral of a character in the original Archie continuity, but fans complained how OOC it was, so Flynn downplayed the hell out of it.

Which isn't really Flynn's fault, because the games were more or less portraying her as a straight up good guy as well. There's never been much moral ambiguity surrounding Rouge, outside of a token comment about wanting to steal something.

 

So that's a weird comment to make, because Rouge was the action oriented female before Blaze, and she's apparently limited in what you can do with her. 

I never got the feeling the series was lacking in female representation. In fact, for a platformer born in the 90's, Sonic has a surprisingly varied female cast as almost none of them feel too stereotypical at times.

 

But eh, I can at least commend Tangle and Whisper for not being too on the nose as characters and they integrate pretty well. Never got that feeling from the Archie cast.

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35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Which isn't really Flynn's fault, because the games were more or less portraying her as a straight up good guy as well.

Well, this can easily be fixed...now that she doesn't randomly work for the government anymore.

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9 hours ago, prowerboy26 said:

 I hope my comment didn't come off as antagonistic btw. I just wanted to respectfully counter the notion about sensitivity.

Oh it's totally fine, I didn't read anything as hostile! I hope you didn't read mine as mean-spirited too. You made a good point, and I saw it as a exchange of opinion.

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Clutch is a female and part of me kinda doubts it at this point.

Oh really? Rouge said "he/him" in the preview so I assumed he was male. Could be a mislead?

Quote

I think the Witchcarters just got looked over because of all the Egg Bosses as well.
Abyss was a pirate who betrayed the Otter's crew to join Eggman for greater pillaging resources.
Thunderbolt was generally humorous, but a few logically found her annoying.

I also think the Witchcarters just wasn't important aside from the reference.

Thank you for explaining Abyss because I did remember she was ocean/pirate related but totally forgot about the Otter crew. I don't think she really did anything significant in the story tho?

Quote

Oh, I remember. It was in an interview or something around the start of the book where they said Tangle was there because the series didn't have "a real Kickbutt female character."

Which, not to be that guy, but that's Sega's own damn fault.

To be fair, I don't think SEGA is too focused on adding female characters just because they're female. 

Idk if they don't care or just wants to keep the status quo/norm they built long ago (which I will give some respect, some companies rush to add diversity because its popular/trendy and it sometimes clashes with what they have) or females are considered in the concept phase but it just so happens only the males make it (which is what happened with Mega Man 11). But I think there's nothing wrong with that.

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I never got the feeling the series was lacking in female representation. In fact, for a platformer born in the 90's, Sonic has a surprisingly varied female cast as almost none of them feel too stereotypical at times.

I think you can fit them into stereotypes if you want to, but yeah. Sonic characters (used to) have distinct personality to make up for lower cast numbers.

Quote

Its kind of sign of the changing of times; hyper-sexualized femme fatales aren't considered acceptable role models nowadays.

Which brings back to my original point: one of the reasons I worry is because given it's a series "for kids", Idk how people will react to female villains in the same level as the Bad Guys in IDW. Archie had a much larger cast and I don't remember any important female villains that were in the same level.

We have comically mean bullies (Skunk bros.), guy who betrayed & murdered his entire team (Mimic), obsessed fanboy who is ok being abused by Eggman and having failures kick him in the ass (Starline), and I guess powerful but publicly despised (Zavok). I won't say they're irredemable, and they're definitely going to be developed further which may change things. But as of now they aren't that sympathetic and is will stay and enjoy their time as a pure villain.

Seeing recent trends...I personally don't think they would've been portrayed that way, or readers would've been fine if any of them were female (or maybe they would; it really depends on the work and fandom). Guys are usually given a pass because they're like the default, but there tends to be double standards when minorities/women are given the same role.

But that's just me, perhaps IDW will prove my worry wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing brutally evil female villains that I can enjoy being defeated.

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1 hour ago, KoDaiko said:

Which brings back to my original point: one of the reasons I worry is because given it's a series "for kids", Idk how people will react to female villains in the same level as the Bad Guys in IDW. Archie had a much larger cast and I don't remember any important female villains that were in the same level.

The Iron Queen and Lien-Da, pre-reboot?

Phage and Egg Bosses Thunderbolt, Wendy Witchcraft, and Conquering Storm Post-Reboot?

Hell, you can even include Mecha Sally herself before the Second Genesis Wave. Each of them had arcs that lasted around 2 to 4, or even 10 issues in some cases.

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3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I would argue that 4 varied female central is still pretty good * unconvincing cough* Mario *cough*.

Ch'yeah :lol:

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Many franchises struggle are proud to have 1 token ass kicking lady, like Tawna 2.0 in Crash (which to be fair, no one in this universe is walking bad ass)

Yeah, I saw that in GameStop the other day. It's like, Borderlands wut

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

And honestly I don't see Tangle kicking more asses than Amy, Rouge or Blaze. She's more of newcomer rookie, mostly acting as support to bigger heroes. Even in her own mini she was almost incompetent.

Doesn't mean much when they're constantly on the side, if that.

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

And since when being sexy antihero means you can't kick ass?I don't remember Han Solo being a wuss or a virgin.

A sentence I've never expected to see.

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Its kind of sign of the changing of times; hyper-sexualized femme fatales aren't considered acceptable role models nowadays.

Which is weird, because they've severely downplayed how shady Rouge is, to the point where she can show up and talk with the heroes and nobody seems to have a problem with it. She was far more amoral of a character in the original Archie continuity, but fans complained how OOC it was, so Flynn downplayed the hell out of it.

Which isn't really Flynn's fault, because the games were more or less portraying her as a straight up good guy as well. There's never been much moral ambiguity surrounding Rouge, outside of a token comment about wanting to steal something.

I mean there was her helping Eggman blow up a prison filled with Government employees and the moon, then mocking Shadow for his existence potentially being a sham all to get her hands on the Emeralds.

Mr. Flynn was just respecting what came before in the comics and Penders was going off of what Sega initially defined the character as in her debut(minus her resolution that was also ignored in the games, of course) while being moderately interested in using her.

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

So that's a weird comment to make, because Rouge was the action oriented female before Blaze, and she's apparently limited in what you can do with her. 

I never got the feeling the series was lacking in female representation. In fact, for a platformer born in the 90's, Sonic has a surprisingly varied female cast as almost none of them feel too stereotypical at times.

 

But eh, I can at least commend Tangle and Whisper for not being too on the nose as characters and they integrate pretty well. Never got that feeling from the Archie cast.

Honestly, I'd say IDW is also just jumping on the bandwagon regarding the female characters being what most people talk about and take away from most continuities. 

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2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Well, this can easily be fixed...now that she doesn't randomly work for the government anymore.

If recent media is any indication, Rouge is more or less just another good guy now. 

28 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I mean there was her helping Eggman blow up a prison filled with Government employees and the moon, then mocking Shadow for his existence potentially being a sham all to get her hands on the Emeralds.

Mr. Flynn was just respecting what came before in the comics and Penders was going off of what Sega initially defined the character as in her debut(minus her resolution that was also ignored in the games, of course) while being moderately interested in using her.

Yea, but Rouge was ultimately working against Eggman and Shadow, the villains. Subsequent appearances just more or less ignored all of that and made her into Shadow's friend.

 

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3 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

 

Oh really? Rouge said "he/him" in the preview so I assumed he was male. Could be a mislead?

Oh, did she? Huh.

Perhaps I'm just used to those sort of species/designs being feminine.

I mean, could be.

Quote

I also think the Witchcarters just wasn't important aside from the reference.

That's another part of it, yes. 

Quote

Thank you for explaining Abyss because I did remember she was ocean/pirate related but totally forgot about the Otter crew. I don't think she really did anything significant in the story tho?

Not really, she just accompanied The Battlelord and was responsible for Shellbreaker's trust issues.

Quote

To be fair, I don't think SEGA is too focused on adding female characters just because they're female. 

Idk if they don't care or just wants to keep the status quo/norm they built long ago (which I will give some respect, some companies rush to add diversity because its popular/trendy and it sometimes clashes with what they have) or females are considered in the concept phase but it just so happens only the males make it (which is what happened with Mega Man 11). But I think there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm talking more about how their actual lineup can be perceptible, lame, non-simple(?), whatever issue they apparently all have.

Wrap your head around that third one, btw

 

Quote

I think you can fit them into stereotypes if you want to, but yeah. Sonic characters (used to) have distinct personality to make up for lower cast numbers.

Which brings back to my original point: one of the reasons I worry is because given it's a series "for kids", Idk how people will react to female villains in the same level as the Bad Guys in IDW. Archie had a much larger cast and I don't remember any important female villains that were in the same level.

We have comically mean bullies (Skunk bros.), guy who betrayed & murdered his entire team (Mimic), obsessed fanboy who is ok being abused by Eggman and having failures kick him in the ass (Starline), and I guess powerful but publicly despised (Zavok). I won't say they're irredemable, and they're definitely going to be developed further which may change things. But as of now they aren't that sympathetic and is will stay and enjoy their time as a pure villain.

 

 

Quote

Seeing recent trends...I personally don't think they would've been portrayed that way, or readers would've been fine if any of them were female (or maybe they would; it really depends on the work and fandom). Guys are usually given a pass because they're like the default, but there tends to be double standards when minorities/women are given the same role.

But that's just me, perhaps IDW will prove my worry wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing brutally evil female villains that I can enjoy being defeated.

I think that a combination of the female villains generally an uncommon side thing and the ones we did see(before the reboot anyway) were some variation of regal witch, femme fatale, or sexy authority figure.

Most of which (arguably like Rouge herself) were probably down to Penders, Bollers, and maybe Strom being more at home with how 80s and 90s comics generally operated compared to the loose motifs Sonic Team decided on.

Also, probably not the best sign you went with an out of universe descriptor for Zavok. 😅

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The Iron Queen and Lien-Da, pre-reboot?

Phage and Egg Bosses Thunderbolt, Wendy Witchcraft, and Conquering Storm Post-Reboot?

Hell, you can even include Mecha Sally herself before the Second Genesis Wave. Each of them had arcs that lasted around 2 to 4, or even 10 issues in some cases.

I guess that sorta proves the point though: with the possible exception of Phage, most of them were subordinates or affiliates who were only truly notable because the authors went out of their way to make them so or they had ties that made them an out of context addition.

.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, but Rouge was ultimately working against Eggman and Shadow, the villains. Subsequent appearances just more or less ignored all of that and made her into Shadow's friend.

Only because she was made a deal to uncover the truth about Project Shadow--any obstruction of their plans was entirely incidental, not to mention a last minute side effect of basically taking a bonus.

Which probably explains why she also stalked and repeatedly beat down a starving Amy, apparently.

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40 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I guess that sorta proves the point though: with the possible exception of Phage, most of them were subordinates or affiliates who were only truly notable because the authors went out of their way to make them so or they had ties that made them an out of context addition.

Not really seeing the difference over the idea of female villains having any prominence in this series, because it has happened before with Archie a lot more than it has been happening with IDW.

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The Iron Queen and Lien-Da, pre-reboot?

Phage and Egg Bosses Thunderbolt, Wendy Witchcraft, and Conquering Storm Post-Reboot?

Hell, you can even include Mecha Sally herself before the Second Genesis Wave. Each of them had arcs that lasted around 2 to 4, or even 10 issues in some cases.

 I didn't mention pre-reboot since my memory of the series is waaaay more vague and I never got to read many of the issues. From what I hear, Iron Queen sounded like a strong villain aside from the possibly overthrowing Eggman part. Kinda want to see someone like her in IDW (Wait, isn't she like a Zeti power-wise?). Mecha Sally was a mixed bag. She's just Mecha Sonic #2, a robot pawn for Eggman, but there was a nice twist of making Sonic & co. to fight their friend. But she lost her formal personality and everything so the "we don't wanna fight you!" "we know you're in there!" struggle would be kind of pointless. Also she would eventually need to be cured, so unfortunately cannot be recurring.

Thunderbolt was an obsessive fan like Starline but aside from that her role was just one of the many minions of Eggman (I reread her wiki and it said she was supposed to be "irredeemable" so I guess she counts?). Neph and Cassia/Clove was more of a sympathetic not-villan that doesn't make you happy of their defeat. We don't know much about C.S and she didn't really do anything aside from the epic group showdown. I feel like the overabundance of Eggbosses really...diluted? thinned down their significance aside from establishing locations.

Does Phage count as a female? I assumed she was a genderless virus. It was a unique concept though. 

44 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I guess that sorta proves the point though: with the possible exception of Phage, most of them were subordinates or affiliates who were only truly notable because the authors went out of their way to make them so or they had ties that made them an out of context addition.

Kind of. Rough and Tumble were baddies already from the start who were temporarily being hired by Starline/Eggman, and we see them messing around by themselves. From what we know, Mimic's ability is overpowered but he aligns with those who benefit him and only cares about himself. Starline was explained earlier. Zavok is...Zavok.

To be specific, I hoping to see more independently "problematic" female characters. Not just badass. Like terrible parents, manipulating abusers, irredeemable henchmen/bullies, inhumane scientists, even straight-up murderers...but female.

But it's true that I look forward to seeing more female baddies in general. Ladies that can work on their own without Eggman and enjoys being evil, that I can laugh at their hulimiating defeat by our heros like the Bad Guys. Given IDW aims to create fewer well-developed characters instead of a bloated somewhat shallow cast (as Ian said in his Bumblekast), I do want to trust their plans for the future.

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57 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Not really seeing the difference over the idea of female villains having any prominence in this series, because it has happened before with Archie a lot more than it has been happening with IDW.

I was just pointing out how most of them were henchwomen.

If IDW ever does the same, they'll have the reign and the time to actually establish a big female villain.

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Bad Guys #1 spoilers:

Spoiler

Was pretty alright with the issue, although I have to admit it somewhat got me on it's bad side by having Starline bust everyone out literally not one issue after they were already imprisoned. Mimic is alright, he hasn't been seen since Tangle and Whisper, which was a year or so ago, but Zavok, Rough and Tumble have literally only been in jail for one issue (#32) before immediately being busted out again.

I liked how Zavok was portrayed in this issue. Having him realise something was fishy right away, but making plans for it, and accounting for Starline's inevitable backstabbing is something I liked. Mimic is as cool as always, and Rough and Tumble is kind of just there, for the most part.

I like how Zavok displays actual care for the Deadly Six too. While his aim is mainly getting payback on Eggman, I like how his secondary goal is aiding the Deadly Six, who he refers to as his pack. It's a nice moment of showing them as a family, somewhat, which had been sorely lacking in every other appearance.

I'm still not feeling Starline much at all, however. I do like him, but the whole shtick of calling out Eggman, while making some blatantly idiotic moves of his own is really frustrating. If Starline is going to start boasting about how he's much more better than Eggman when it comes to planning, and keeping his eye on the bigger prize, then I'd rather his failings come from that, rather than coming off as hypocritical.

I wanted to see Starline acknowledge his failures, and plan accordingly for the future. Instead, he's trying his hand again with Zavok, and he can't even acknowledge his own errors in the Metal Virus crisis. He tries to claim Eggman "misused the Warp Topaz" when it was the only thing left that fixed the mess, and he tries to claim that in some roundabout way, Eggman's short-sightedness caused this mess (which yeah - it did have a had in it, because he did so without ensuring he could control it), but it only went from bad to worse when Starline called in the Zeti, despite the fact how blatantly obvious of a bad idea that is, due to their history with Eggman.

To me, Starline's failings should be Eggman's successes. Eggman doesn't plan ahead, but he's also quick on his feet, easier to make snap decisions, and knows how to turn a failing situation to his advantage. Eggman is adaptable, Starline is a tactician. But instead, it's coming off that Starline keeps making bad plans, and then blaming others when his obviously bad plans go horribly wrong. 

Even with the deal with Zavok, Starline is still hypocritically making Eggman's mistakes. Despite the fact that Zavok has managed to successfully overpower and usurp them twice, Starline still thinks of him as a simple brute he can screw over when the time comes, and it just doesn't gel with me. You can't keep claiming Starline is the antithesis to Eggman, and is working to not repeat his mistakes, when he does nothing but repeat Eggman's mistakes, and then says "I need to stop doing that", or "It was so and so's fault".

Still cautiously optimistic. I decently liked what I've seen so far, but I still need to see some improvements before I can really say I enjoy this. I liked the prison break itself, and I thought Zavok was probably the best portrayed in this (A very pleasant surprise, because I expected him to be the weakest aspect), but there's still a lot I'm pretty bleh about. The art is absolutely fantastic too. 

 

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26 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

 I didn't mention pre-reboot since my memory of the series is waaaay more vague and I never got to read many of the issues. From what I hear, Iron Queen sounded like a strong villain aside from the possibly overthrowing Eggman part. Kinda want to see someone like her in IDW (Wait, isn't she like a Zeti power-wise?).

Basically.

She was [retconned into] a technomage, with the ability to manipulate any nearby machinery. She wasn't able to do much until she had Iron King killed the Yagyu Bride to take over their clan and convince the others to follow her, then hooking up with Snively was her ticket to a greater power grab with Eggman losing his mind.

Considering how much technology was involved in almost every part of the world, she was definitely a powerful middle ground between Eggman and Naugus.

26 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

Thunderbolt was an obsessive fan like Starline but aside from that her role was just one of the many minions of Eggman (I reread her wiki and it said she was supposed to be "irredeemable" so I guess she counts?). Neph and Cassia/Clove was more of a sympathetic not-villan that doesn't make you happy of their defeat. We don't know much about C.S and she didn't really do anything aside from the epic group showdown. I feel like the overabundance of Eggbosses really...diluted? thinned down their significance aside from establishing locations.

The Bride of Conquering Storm is kinda like Abyss with more paneltime and Tundra except more appealing: she was big on strength and against weakness, which is why she remained aligned with Snively(and ultimately Eggman) when Regina was defeated and kicked out Lightning when he failed to back up his proposal by besting her. The reboot seemed to wanna make her a bit more respectable by having her accept whoever whereas the new four clans were supposedly segregated aside from Dulcy's Shinin Warriors, but she was otherwise the same and initially disliked Lord Hood because he came across as a coward.

You're right in that while they were meant to have individual arcs or at least roles in major stories, the sheer number of Egg Boss, while better managed than the Freedom Fighters, could be a bit much depending on how you look at em.

26 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

 

Kind of. Rough and Tumble were baddies already from the start who were temporarily being hired by Starline/Eggman, and we see them messing around by themselves. From what we know, Mimic's ability is overpowered but he aligns with those who benefit him and only cares about himself. Starline was explained earlier. Zavok is...Zavok.

We were talking about the females in Archie, but whatever.

26 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

To be specific, I hoping to see more independently "problematic" female characters. Not just badass. Like terrible parents, manipulating abusers, irredeemable henchmen/bullies, inhumane scientists, even straight-up murderers...but female.

But it's true that I look forward to seeing more female baddies in general. Ladies that can work on their own without Eggman and enjoys being evil, that I can laugh at their hulimiating defeat by our heros like the Bad Guys. Given IDW aims to create fewer well-developed characters instead of a bloated somewhat shallow cast (as Ian said in his Bumblekast), I do want to trust their plans for the future.

We'll have to see. Perhaps that's exactly what characters like Blaze, Jewel, and even Vanilla need to enable some spotlight.

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13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Bad Guys #1 spoilers:

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Was pretty alright with the issue, although I have to admit it somewhat got me on it's bad side by having Starline bust everyone out literally not one issue after they were already imprisoned. Mimic is alright, he hasn't been seen since Tangle and Whisper, which was a year or so ago, but Zavok, Rough and Tumble have literally only been in jail for one issue (#31) before immediately being busted out again.

 

Yeah, this probably would've been cooler if there'd been a little more time. Another issue aggravated by the pandemic?

Quote
Spoiler

I like how Zavok displays actual care for the Deadly Six too. While his aim is mainly getting payback on Eggman, I like how his secondary goal is aiding the Deadly Six, who he refers to as his pack. It's a nice moment of showing them as a family, somewhat, which had been sorely lacking in every other appearance.

 

Spoiler

 

It was mostly reserved for Master Zik, while the others mainly just seem to annoy him a bit. Well except for maybe Zomom, but that's more notable for a lack of reaction than anything.

But yeah, it is still something that would get a good way in developing him more and distinguish him from Eggman.

 

Quote
Spoiler

 

I'm still not feeling Starline much at all, however. I do like him, but the whole shtick of calling out Eggman, while making some blatantly idiotic moves of his own is really frustrating. If Starline is going to start boasting about how he's much more better than Eggman when it comes to planning, and keeping his eye on the bigger prize, then I'd rather his failings come from that, rather than coming off as hypocritical.

I wanted to see Starline acknowledge his failures, and plan accordingly for the future. Instead, he's trying his hand again with Zavok, and he can't even acknowledge his own errors in the Metal Virus crisis. He tries to claim Eggman "misused the Warp Topaz" when it was the only thing left that fixed the mess, and he tries to claim that in some roundabout way, Eggman's short-sightedness called this mess, when it only went from bad to worse when Starline called in the Zeti, despite the fact how blatantly obvious of a bad idea that is.

To me, Starline's failings should be Eggman's successes. Eggman doesn't plan ahead, but he's also quick on his feet, easier to make snap decisions, and knows how to turn a failing situation to his advantage. Eggman is adaptable, Starline is a tactician. But instead, it's coming off that Starline keeps making bad plans, and then blaming others when his obviously bad plans go horribly wrong. 

Even with the deal with Zavok, Starline is still hypocritically making Eggman's mistakes. Despite the fact that Zavok has managed to successfully overpower and usurp them twice, Starline still thinks of him as a simple brute he can screw over when the time comes, and it just doesn't gel with me. You can't keep claiming Starline is the antithesis to Eggman, and is working to not repeat his mistakes, when he does nothing but repeat Eggman's mistakes, and then says "I need to stop doing that", or "It was so and so's fault".

 

Yeah, that can a bit of a questionable trend to continue, as Phi can attest. It's especially weird considering Starline is indeed the perfect sorta character to explore the other pole with.

This here made more sense with Snively because he himself was kind of a fussy runt who was trying outdo the man he admired for being such an amazing intellectual in the first place. Mind you, Julian was originally more sinister than Eggman generally is, so maybe it's also just natural for him to be that way compared to Starlight. 

 

Quote

Still cautiously optimistic. I decently liked what I've seen so far, but I still need to see some improvements before I can really say I enjoy this. I liked the prison break itself, and I thought Zavok was probably the best portrayed in this (A very pleasant surprise, because I expected him to be the weakest aspect), but there's still a lot I'm pretty bleh about. The art is absolutely fantastic too. 

 

Spoiler

 

.

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

This here made more sense with Snively because he himself was kind of a fussy runt who was trying outdo the man he admired for being such an amazing intellectual in the first place. Mind you, Julian was originally more sinister than Eggman generally is, so maybe it's also just natural for him to be that way compared to Starlight. 

With Snively, it makes more sense as to why he's the way he is. When it came to Eggman and his method of planning, Snively's problem was never that he saw Eggman as short sighted, or what have you, he just wanted Eggman out of the way so he could take control. Snively is simply a backstabbing lackey who wanted to use Eggman's armies and robots for his own goals, not make his own plans.

An earlier arc by Bollers (long before Flynn's run) showcased it, Snively is accidentally given credit for breaking a group of villains out of Knothole's prison. Snively wasn't the one who did it, and when he was placed in charge of these villains, he couldn't handle it because he not only didn't have experience leading other villains who can question your actions, but they could easily turn on him as well. Snively in general is inept at creating his own plans.

Even when Eggman went insane, Snively had no issue taking up all of his armies, his robots, his bases, basically everything Eggman had created, and simply handing it to the Iron Queen, who could put it to better usage. The only time Snively had an issue with Eggman directly was when Eggman had stopped giving a shit about taking over the world, but rather - when he began obsessing and going crazy over killing Sonic.

With Starline however, the whole point is Starline is meant to be a genius in his own right, able to lead, and make plans. He's conceptually meant to be an antithesis to Eggman and his way of planning, but so far, he's just been hypocritically repeating Eggman's mistakes, and then either shifting the blame, or simpling making a note to stop doing it, even though he keeps doing it anyways.

It's just frustrating IMO, it makes Starline weaker as a villain IMO.

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