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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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45 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

What did you think of them in previous appearances then?

Their the same now as there previous appearances but I'm afraid of them getting changed as fans love to say they have one personality trait. 

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36 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Their the same now as there previous appearances but I'm afraid of them getting changed as fans love to say they have one personality trait. 

Shouldn't that make it easier to plausibly do things with them then?

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4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, what do you mean by that?

 

The Metal Virus climax is the first time since Super Silver appeared alongside Super Sonic in any media. 

 

Outside of that, while Silver got an arc or two, it was mostly relegated in the Sonic Universe spin off

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

The Metal Virus climax is the first time since Super Silver appeared alongside Super Sonic in any media. 

 

Outside of that, while Silver got an arc or two, it was mostly relegated in the Sonic Universe spin off

Oh, you mean in terms of having a presence in the climax of something.

And while I suppose that's true, you kinda have to segregate him since he doesn't really have much to do with Sonic. Same with Shadow really, which is why he's been hosed for the last decade.

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14 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Ok so we're all adults so our views are skewed (though personally I don't hate the Deadly Six and think the extreme hate they get is kinda weird) but I often wonder what do kids think of the Zeti?

Like Sega wouldn't be pushing them so hard if there wasn't some call for them right?

One, that would infact be interesting to see. 
Two, no. May I point to shadow a character who is literally being changed because sega thinks this will be better for the bottom line, and no actual proof of this whatsoever. A matter of fact if you use the last decade or so of proof that watering down the strangeness of sonic doesn't actually work and you appeal to no one, its a lot of proof of the opposite. But Sega is committed this idea. So the deadly 6 could be the least popular people in the universe, someone at sega thinks they have value and untill that person stops being in charge that's all that matters

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

There is a thin line between creating cohesive word and Sonic Boom level of recycling.

And Between Deadly Six, Starline and Skunk Duo, we are really pushing on that line.

That is also my problem. I would have hoped maybe we could move on to more original characters. There's an entire world, and in archie the universe comics were used to expand that world. You used the other characters to discover more characters and broaden that world. Here the spin off books while good, never really establish much in terms of anything new and just recycle concepts. Sometimes quite literally in the case of the left over shadow andriods. I wish there were more exploration in the book. However Ian flynn warned us way back when , when people were curious about the lack of place names about how this world is going to be a bit less tangible in that way. 

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On 2/18/2021 at 4:00 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Just give me Starline as the villain...hell I'd take the Skunk Bros as the villains....why do we have to keep coming back to the Deadly Shits. I do not understand the fascination of using these guys so much.

Mining 0 potential is still 0.

Except it’s not zero potential, and I say this as someone who also hates the fuck out of the D6.

If there is any chance of making a hated character actually worth a damn, why in the world would that be a bad thing beyond simply not wanting them to get any attention?

How many characters does it take to get this point across? People said Big had zero potential (I sure as hell did, and I’ve since changed my mind as a whole after seeing Ian make him interesting in Archie); people said Shadow had zero potential; people said Silver and most of the extended game cast after 1994 had zero potential for one reason or another; I could go on, but this song and dance is really getting old every time someone sees characters they don’t like getting any spotlight, and it’s not because they have zero potential.

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2 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Except it’s not zero potential, and I say this as someone who also hates the fuck out of the D6.

If there is any chance of making a hated character actually worth a damn, why in the world would that be a bad thing beyond simply not wanting them to get any attention?

How many characters does it take to get this point across? People said Big had zero potential (I sure as hell did, and I’ve since changed my mind as a whole after seeing Ian make him interesting in Archie); people said Shadow had zero potential; people said Silver and most of the extended game cast after 1994 had zero potential for one reason or another; I could go on, but this song and dance is really getting old every time someone sees characters they don’t like getting any spotlight, and it’s not because they have zero potential.

That's more your own opinion than anything as you changed your mind. That doesn't mean everyone changed their mind. I'm sure some people have and others like me have not. I say they have zero potential because they are based completely on character tropes rather than being actual characters. You'd have to change them into entirely different characters from what they are to be any good which is funny as then they're not really the same character. Though to be fair that's what they have been doing with the main cast for years so perhaps looking at it from that angle you are right.

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9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

All characters are based on existing archetypes

True but instead of using extra building blocks for the deadly six they just stopped at the beginning lol

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3 hours ago, Cadence said:

One, that would infact be interesting to see. 
Two, no. May I point to shadow a character who is literally being changed because sega thinks this will be better for the bottom line, and no actual proof of this whatsoever. A matter of fact if you use the last decade or so of proof that watering down the strangeness of sonic doesn't actually work and you appeal to no one, its a lot of proof of the opposite. But Sega is committed this idea. So the deadly 6 could be the least popular people in the universe, someone at sega thinks they have value and untill that person stops being in charge that's all that matters

That is also my problem. I would have hoped maybe we could move on to more original characters. There's an entire world, and in archie the universe comics were used to expand that world. You used the other characters to discover more characters and broaden that world. Here the spin off books while good, never really establish much in terms of anything new and just recycle concepts. Sometimes quite literally in the case of the left over shadow andriods. I wish there were more exploration in the book. However Ian flynn warned us way back when , when people were curious about the lack of place names about how this world is going to be a bit less tangible in that way. 

Yeah, IDW was bound to be a lot more barren compared to Archie with it's original content and that's not including both Sega's mandates and Flynn being less beholden to it.

In the case of characters, they almost always have to be painstakingly conceptualized, pitched, designed, and redesigned in order to officially make into the book. The big three OCs went through numerous changes and tests before they were ready to go and even the smaller names had to contend with at least one redesign per what Sonic Team would allow at the time.

Lanolin, Scruffy, and Stars only got so far out of convenience.

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4 hours ago, Cadence said:

One, that would infact be interesting to see. 
Two, no. May I point to shadow a character who is literally being changed because sega thinks this will be better for the bottom line, and no actual proof of this whatsoever. A matter of fact if you use the last decade or so of proof that watering down the strangeness of sonic doesn't actually work and you appeal to no one, its a lot of proof of the opposite. But Sega is committed this idea. So the deadly 6 could be the least popular people in the universe, someone at sega thinks they have value and untill that person stops being in charge that's all that matters

 

I mean you're kinda preaching to a brick wall on the Shadow point. I sincerely don't see how he's any different now than he's ever been. People keep saying he is but I really truly don't see it.

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2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's more your own opinion than anything as you changed your mind.
 

Tell me something I don’t know over the past 15 years of being on this forum besides it being my own opinion.

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That doesn't mean everyone changed their mind. I'm sure some people have and others like me have not. I say they have zero potential because they are based completely on character tropes rather than being actual characters. You'd have to change them into entirely different characters from what they are to be any good which is funny as then they're not really the same character. Though to be fair that's what they have been doing with the main cast for years so perhaps looking at it from that angle you are right.

I’m not telling you to change your mind, and I’m also not telling you to like them either. I still don’t like the Deadly Six, but this idea of “zero potential” is anything but given every character is based on tropes—there is not one single work of fiction out there that this doesn’t apply to, spanning from before the word “trope” even entered the English lexicon.

And you don’t have to change the whole character of the Deadly Six to be any good given what little they already have. I don’t know where this idea of changing characters entirely to be good comes from, but people have said this before with every other character and I’m pretty sure anyone with a degree of flexibility knows this isn’t true whether you like the character or not.

They could make the Deadly Six much better characters by giving them more background to who they are and why instead of keeping them as 2-dimensional caricatures based on narrow ranges of expression, or giving them more teeth and impact which is actually what Ian has done since he first started writing them to begin with—the acts they did during the Metal Virus arc sure as hell isn’t something you could see Sonic Team’s writers pull off over the past few years by comparison, and had Sonic Team actually put more depth into the D6 like they’ve done with at least the Babylon Rouges or even the Chaotix, none of us would be giving them the level of dislike they’ve received since their debut. And even in doing so, Zazz could still be the zany bloodthirster he is, Zomom the hungry glutton, and Zor the emo romantic (I honestly don’t even know if that word actually applies, but it’s the vibe I could best describe him as) as they continue wrecking with all things technological.

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43 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I mean you're kinda preaching to a brick wall on the Shadow point. I sincerely don't see how he's any different now than he's ever been. People keep saying he is but I really truly don't see it.

He acts a lot more stupid than pragmatic.

Basically, they did a Knuckles with Shadow.

Him being turned into a Zombot during the Metal Virus arc because he thought running away from a fight is coward is stupid, because he had no problem running from fights that were too risky even if he’s the ultimate life form—case in point, when Sonic fought him to a draw on Prison Island in SA2, he ran because there was something more important than fighting; hell during his intro, he didn’t even bother fighting Sonic to prove his power.

Shadow’s stubborn as hell, but he’s pragmatic enough to know what to do when shit hits the fan instead of going full Vegeta to prove his strength when it doesn’t suit him. He knows he’s strong and capable, and unless you directly insult him (I.e. calling him a “faker”) or directly challenge his title in the same way of challenging Sonic as the Fastest Thing Alive, he couldn’t—or rather shouldn’t—care less about those he deems weaker than him getting in his way when he’s more than capable of effortlessly getting around them. That’s the ego Shadow should have.

So when he gets touched by infected Zombots and told to run to stave off infection, his reaction should’ve been “Oh shit, better get the hell away”...or unleash his inhibitor rings like Ian originally planned if he was still going to fight. Or throw Chaos Spears to keep them at bay. Or teleport away...see what I mean by being stupid with all these other options he had? I’m not saying he’s a genius and that he can’t screw up and not become a Zombot anyway, but he’s not this dense, and that’s the problem people have had with his portrayal.

Now mind you, I’m still catching up with the issues, so I can’t say much for his recent portrayal in the last few issues if that’s been rectified somewhat.

 

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m not telling you to change your mind, and I’m also not telling you to like them either. I still don’t like the Deadly Six, but this idea of “zero potential” is anything but given every character is based on tropes—there is not one single work of fiction out there that this doesn’t apply to, spanning from before the word “trope” even entered the English lexicon.

And you don’t have to change the whole character of the Deadly Six to be any good given what little they already have. I don’t know where this idea of changing characters entirely to be good comes from, but people have said this before with every other character and I’m pretty sure anyone with a degree of flexibility knows this isn’t true whether you like the character or not.

They could make the Deadly Six much better characters by giving them more background to who they are and why instead of keeping them as 2-dimensional caricatures based on narrow ranges of expression, or giving them more teeth and impact which is actually what Ian has done since he first started writing them to begin with—the acts they did during the Metal Virus arc sure as hell isn’t something you could see Sonic Team’s writers pull off over the past few years by comparison, and had Sonic Team actually put more depth into the D6 like they’ve done with at least the Babylon Rouges or even the Chaotix, none of us would be giving them the level of dislike they’ve received since their debut. And even in doing so, Zazz could still be the zany bloodthirster he is, Zomom the hungry glutton, and Zor the emo romantic (I honestly don’t even know if that word actually applies, but it’s the vibe I could best describe him as) as they continue wrecking with all things technological.

More background wouldn't really change much since how they act IS the problem more than anything else. It would be nice sure but how they act is the problem. They are boring and uninteresting. They could continue to have no background or interesting motivation and that wouldn't be the end all be all of what royally screws them over. It's how they talk and act which ruins them. They both say and do nothing interesting. That more than anything ruins them. A one note character can even be fine if they are at least entertaining. They can't even be fun as one note characters.

I honestly think you've have to make them completely new to make them any good from 0 potential. But that's how I feel. I believe you'd have to tone down their one trait severely or somehow at least make that one trait either endearing or entertaining. The closest I ever gave a crap was when Zomom said "Mom was right I am a failure". Probably the one time I at least laughed but mostly cause he was a terrible character. So maybe the solution is they admit they are shit characters XP

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27 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

More background wouldn't really change much since how they act IS the problem more than anything else. It would be nice sure but how they act is the problem. They are boring and uninteresting. They could continue to have no background or interesting motivation and that wouldn't be the end all be all of what royally screws them over. It's how they talk and act which ruins them. They both say and do nothing interesting. That more than anything ruins them. A one note character can even be fine if they are at least entertaining. They can't even be fun as one note characters.

Technopathic, multi-colored devils who take control of machines and a techno-viral apocalypse go out to torment civilians, put the heroes at their limits and nearly cause the end of the world are boring and do nothing interesting? All because of how they act?
 

Dude, that’s not “zero potential,” that’s hating for the sake of hating—and again, I don’t care for them either.

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I honestly think you've have to make them completely new to make them any good from 0 potential. But that's how I feel.
 

just told you how to make them interesting without changing them entirely, dude. And that’s before being specific.

And this...

Quote

I believe you'd have to tone down their one trait severely or somehow at least make that one trait either endearing or entertaining.

Isn’t even doing much to change them either, if at all.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Technopathic devils who take control of machines and a viral apocalypse, torment civilians, put the heroes at their limits and nearly cause the end of the world are boring and do nothing interesting? 
 

Dude, that’s not “zero potential,” that’s hating for the sake of hating—and again, I don’t care for them either.

just told you how to make them interesting without changing them entirely, dude.

And this...

Isn’t even doing much to change them either, if at all.

 

 

Anything can sound interesting and good if you remove context from it. It's a shame they made characters with that idea so poor an uninteresting. The premise is utterly destroyed by the characters it's given to.

Call it whatever you want, I still stand by what I said.

No you didn't you just told me what you think would work. I don't think what you said would work as at the end of the day if they can't entertain, then adding layers won't even save them. Them being shallow is only part of why they suck. That they aren't the least bit entertaining is what cripples them more than anything else. You can have a shallow entertaining character and a boring shit fully layered character. 

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19 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Anything can sound interesting and good if you remove context from it.

Good thing I didn’t then.

Quote

No you didn't you just told me what you think would work. I don't think what you said would work as at the end of the day if they can't entertain, then adding layers won't even save them. Them being shallow is only part of why they suck. That they aren't the least bit entertaining is what cripples them more than anything else.
 

know it would work because the lack of such is the main problems of why people say they don’t like them. They’re stereotypical, 2-dimensional, with little drive beyond eating (Zomom), vanity (Zeena), and melodrama (Zor), with mainly Zazz, Ziks, and Zavok being the only ones that seem to somewhat break that mold to any degree (and even then it’s not much).

All people know about them is how they look and how they act. If they actually had more background to actually reinforce these two dimensions, they’d each be a lot more interesting beyond simply being part of a group. We don’t know why they act the way they do, just that they are, and it’s that lack of added context to each of their characters is why they’re no where near as interesting as the other characters. They don’t have any actual hobbies beyond their personalities; they don’t have any actual drive beyond their personalities; they don’t have any goals and ambitions beyond their personalities; no reason for being, no reason for doing, they just act for the sake of acting.

That is the core problem with the Deadly Six, all of which can be solved by actually delving into an actual background that fleshes them out into three dimensional beings and give them a greater sense of character over the things they do and why.

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You can have a shallow entertaining character and a boring shit fully layered character. 
 

And I’ll bet you the main difference between the two is nothing more than a matter good and bad writing. And that’s without considering personal tastes.

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3 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's more your own opinion than anything as you changed your mind. That doesn't mean everyone changed their mind. I'm sure some people have and others like me have not. I say they have zero potential because they are based completely on character tropes rather than being actual characters. You'd have to change them into entirely different characters from what they are to be any good which is funny as then they're not really the same character. Though to be fair that's what they have been doing with the main cast for years so perhaps looking at it from that angle you are right.

 

3 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

True but instead of using extra building blocks for the deadly six they just stopped at the beginning lol

I'm kinda 1/6 on that, given that that is one of the only bits of info on their conceptualization they have.

Still, it's very possible and even inherent for characters to start out pretty simplistic and gain more to them over the time. Hell, look no further than most of the Classic cast.

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I mean you're kinda preaching to a brick wall on the Shadow point. I sincerely don't see how he's any different now than he's ever been. People keep saying he is but I really truly don't see it.

He was far less abrasive, antisocial(especially in the disorder context), and stubborn in games like Heroes, 06, both Rivals games, Colors DS, and even certain runs of his own game than he is here.

To say nothing of everything after Home in preboot Archie.

 

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

Can the Zeti take control of Belle?

Most likely. 

Should prove interesting, since we've only seen them take control of a sentient robot in limited capacities. This could be the first time it actually matters and gets explored.

46 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You know, Flynn could make next arc about Chaos. We're slowly going through all Sonic Forces generals.

And I know that Chaos is good guy now, but I'm pretty sure Starline could make his own artificial Chaos or something like this.

You know what, he was free to use in Archie and thus should be fine here. Although his presence in Forces Speed Battle may or may not put in the public consciousness a little too much, depending on how generous Sonic Team is feeling. 

Certain rumors not withstanding.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That is the core problem with the Deadly Six, all of which can be solved by actually delving into an actual background that fleshes them out into three dimensional beings and give them a greater sense of character.

And I’ll bet you the main difference between the two is nothing more than a matter good and bad writing.

No that is the reason for them being shallow, but that is not the core of the problem. Being shallow is fine, especially in a series with this demographic. The classic Sonic characters aren't exactly deep in anyway but they had something to at least make them entertaining. It's the fact they are not entertaining in the least that ruins the six. You can give them the most interesting and crazy backstory you want, you can have reasons for their personalities. But none of that matters if at the end of the day the way they present themselves is boring and uninteresting. At that point you've already lost with the characters. The surface value is the problem more than anything else. If they're not the least bit entertaining then why should anyone care about wanting to learn anything else about them? Before any of that can even happen they need to actually BE entertaining. 

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

I'm kinda 1/6 on that, given that that is one of the only bits of info on their conceptualization they have.

Still, it's very possible and even inherent for characters to start out pretty simplistic and gain more to them over the time. Hell, look no further than most of the Classic cast.

True as I said simplistic and shallow aren't an issue if at the very bare minimum you're entertaining. A simple potato chip can still be good, while a complexly made one with several factors going into it's conception and flavouring can still be utter shit if it tastes like shit. First off make them at least fun to see on the surface level, then worry about the undertones.

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12 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

No that is the reason for them being shallow, but that is not the core of the problem. Being shallow is fine, especially in a series with this demographic. The classic Sonic characters aren't exactly deep in anyway but they had something to at least make them entertaining. It's the fact they are not entertaining in the least that ruins the six. You can give them the most interesting and crazy backstory you want, you can have reasons for their personalities. But none of that matters if at the end of the day the way they present themselves is boring and uninteresting. At that point you've already lost with the characters. The surface value is the problem more than anything else. If they're not the least bit entertaining then why should anyone care about wanting to learn anything else about them? Before any of that can even happen they need to actually BE entertaining. 
 

And what, pray tell, makes a character interesting and entertaining then?

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4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And what, pray tell, makes a character interesting and entertaining then?

Not directed this way, I realize, but that, suh/ma'am, is somewhat subjective.

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3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Not directed this way, I realize, but that, suh/ma'am, is somewhat subjective.

Actually, it’s far more objective than you realize. I already went through the literal three dimensions that make up a character and their place in a narrative, but that doesn’t seem to matter. So I want to know what I’m missing here.

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