Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Kuzu]

12 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh, you mean in terms of having a presence in the climax of something.

And while I suppose that's true, you kinda have to segregate him since he doesn't really have much to do with Sonic. Same with Shadow really, which is why he's been hosed for the last decade.

Yea, but Shadow's too popular for them to really bench, hence why they started to bring him back recently.

 

The curse of popularity 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, but Shadow's too popular for them to really bench, hence why they started to bring him back recently.

 

The curse of popularity 

More like the curse of fucking up his character.

We’ve seen a damn good Shadow be well-written, angst and Black Arms past included—that last part I would’ve wanted cut out entirely in any other circumstances.

[dbzfan7]

27 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And what, pray tell, makes a character interesting and entertaining then?

For surface value characters that the Deadly Six were clearly made to be, how they talk and how they act is most important. They were never created to be deep characters and that is fine. For the six I personally would have it that they suck real bad at being villains and aren't threats unless they take things very seriously. That underlying theme alone can explain away why characters with such shallow personalities. A quick glance of ideas that doesn't really make them less shallow but at least entertaining. That would also mean Eggman doesn't have to suffer fill that kind of role he at times is made to fill.

Zavok should have an extremely hard time getting the six to actually focus. Only the old guy is really on the same page as him. The others just want to do whatever the hell they feel like. This is why their personalities are so wild and unfocused and shallow. As well as why they don't seem like good villains. They are all single note on the desire they care about. We get a little of this in the game with him having to "trick" Zeena but it's done in the typical way. The reason they become threats should be because Sonic unites them either through intentional or unintentional means depending on who. He either says or does something to make them want to work together to destroy him.

Zazz who actually likes to fight and hurt people should be overexcited to fight Sonic just as he was in the game, but he goes over ecstatic and tries the most complex ridiculous things to pound Sonic instead of just being simple. Be a like 6 step thinker to a 2 step problem kinda guy. Have him want to beat Sonic but be focused on making it brutal and cool and in a big way. And that fault is what makes him lose because of his personality flaw.

Zeena/Zomom are two that really would have 0 interest in Sonic and be against Zavok. One is the rebellious teenager girl who doesn't want to listen to some big red guy tell her what to do, and the other just wants to eat stuff and working hard just makes him hungrier which is no fun. They're harmless til we have Sonic do or say something that may piss them off. Like accidentally ruining Zomoms meal and insulting Zeena was in the game. Zomom can be the character who just wants to eat but bad luck screws him over and he ends up mad. Zeena could maybe think Sonic is cool til he says one thing he that is taken completely wrong no matter if he tries to put things delicately.

Zorr just doesn't care about anything. He just wants to be left alone but Zavok forces him to be evil. He's pure emo and cares of nothing of life in the game but is utterly forced to do what he does or he won't be left alone. He'd be the sympathetic to people who just hate situations being forced on them. Not really deep but it's relatable in a sense.

That's just coming up with stuff off the top of my head. Keeping things shallow and 2 dimensional but at least making things a little quirkier. Them being traditional villains was the wrong way to go about it. They should be I think a dysfunctional family that is only trouble when they actually work together, but somewhat sympathetic or humorous with all the trouble it takes just to make them become deadly. At least their one note traits can become quirky and somewhat entertaining. THEN and ONLY THEN should we consider adding depth as I said before "No amount of depth matters if a character can't do the one thing they're meant to in this media and be entertaining"

[DabigRG]

19 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Actually, it’s far more objective than you realize. I already went through the literal three dimensions that make up a character and their place in a narrative, but that doesn’t seem to matter. So I want to know what I’m missing here.

I'm just saying, it's pretty clear that what he finds funny or engaging evidently hasn't been present in the Zeti throughout most of their screen/panel time. Can't say why that is(I mean I probably could, but that's speculatory/judgmental), but that's the vibe he and a few others are giving off.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

For surface value characters that the Deadly Six were clearly made to be, how they talk and how they act is most important. They were never created to be deep characters and that is fine. For the six I personally would have it that they suck real bad at being villains and aren't threats unless they take things very seriously. That underlying theme alone can explain away why characters with such shallow personalities. A quick glance of ideas that doesn't really make them less shallow but at least entertaining.

Zavok should have an extremely hard time getting the six to actually focus. Only the old guy is really on the same page as him. The others just want to do whatever the hell they feel like. This is why their personalities are so wild and unfocused and shallow. As well as why they don't seem like good villains. They are all single note on the desire they care about. We get a little of this in the game with him having to "trick" Zeena but it's done in the typical way. The reason they become threats should be because Sonic pisses them off. He either says or does something to make them want to work together to destroy him.

Zazz who actually likes to fight and hurt people should be overexcited to fight Sonic just as he was in the game, but he goes over ecstatic and tries the most complex ridiculous things to pound Sonic instead of just being simple. Be a like 6 step thinker to a 2 step problem kinda guy. Have him want to beat Sonic but be focused on making it brutal and cool and in a big way. And that fault is what makes him lose because of his personality flaw.

Zeena/Zomom are two that really would have 0 interest in Sonic and be against Zavok. One is the rebellious teenager girl who doesn't want to listen to some big red guy tell her what to do, and the other just wants to eat stuff and working hard just makes him hungrier which is no fun. They're harmless til we have Sonic do or say something that may piss them off. Like accidentally ruining Zomoms meal and insulting Zeena was in the game. Zomom can be the character who just wants to eat but bad luck screws him over and he ends up mad. Zeena could maybe think Sonic is cool til he says one thing he that is taken completely wrong no matter if he tries to put things delicately.

Zorr just doesn't care about anything. He just wants to be left alone but Zavok forces him to be evil. He's pure emo and cares of nothing of life in the game but is utterly forced to do what he does or he won't be left alone.

That's just coming up with stuff off the top of my head. Keeping things shallow and 2 dimensional but at least making things a little quirkier. Them being traditional villains was the wrong way to go about it. They should be I think a dysfunctional family that is only trouble when they actually work together, but somewhat sympathetic or humorous with all the trouble it takes just to make them become deadly.  

So, their group dynamics—their personalities interacting or clashing with each other and the rest of the cast.

And where exactly did you have to change their whole character to come up with this?  All you’re really doing is making them more or less cooperative and effective based on a given situation they’re in. That’s not really a massive change of their characters.

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm just saying, it's pretty clear that what he finds funny or engaging evidently hasn't been present in the Zeti throughout most of their screen/panel time. Can't say why that is(I mean I probably could, but that's speculatory/judgmental), but that's the vibe he and a few others are giving off.

You don’t have to like something to understand the appeal of it, nor do you have to dislike something to understand why something is unappealing, dude.

That’s why things are a lot more objective than you think.

[DabigRG]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, but Shadow's too popular for them to really bench, hence why they started to bring him back recently.

 

The curse of popularity 

Ikr

17 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

More like the curse of fucking up his character.

We’ve seen a damn good Shadow be well-written, angst and Black Arms past included—that last part I would’ve wanted cut out entirely in any other circumstances.

Fact of the matter is Shadow has been accustomed to a specific story type and often tone that hasn't been properly utilized since 06 in the games and Total Eclipse in comics. Now that the franchise has been reigned in to doing simpler, less branching stories, it's hard to include him without omitting at least some of what made him work in his heyday.

So it's either use his developed character in a limited capacity (which Sonic Team and apparently a few fans don't want) or fudge it just to make him stand out more as a big deal.

 

 

 

[dbzfan7]

11 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So, their group dynamics—their personalities interacting with each other.

And where exactly did you have to change their whole character to come up with this?  All you’re really doing is making them more or less cooperative based on a situation they’re in. Not really a massive change.

That's the point. I didn't change shit at the surface level but at the very least made them mildly entertaining. Even then still wouldn't even consider them good. Just at least have something. They're still shallow uninteresting characters as I wrote them, but at least there is some fun there so they don't completely charisma suck away all entertainment. I barely added to their layers but rather switched the context for their actions. I used context to make something out of them. I did nothing with their overall characters and instead reconstituted the entire dynamic. That is what would have to change bare minimum and from the arcs in IDW and Archie I've seen them in that really isn't the case with their direction.

Giving a backstory or whatever on their current ways of acting and behavior is like putting a ton of Band-Aids on a leaking jug of sewage water. I can stop it from leaking but man it still tastes like shit. You're looking more at how to flesh them out as in depth characters while I'm saying it's pointless if they're not at the very least fun or quirky to make their shallowness has some value to it. Re-contextuallizing their shallowness is what I did. Just randomly throwing what I said and applying it to them wouldn't work as that's not how they are nor hint at acting.

12 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'm just saying, it's pretty clear that what he finds funny or engaging evidently hasn't been present in the Zeti throughout most of their screen/panel time. Can't say why that is(I mean I probably could, but that's speculatory/judgmental), but that's the vibe he and a few others are giving off.

I wrote my own shallow 2D characters of what could at the very least work to not make them feel like a total waste of time. Context really is something. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Ikr

Fact of the matter is Shadow has been accustomed to a specific story type and often tone that hasn't been properly utilized since 06 in the games and Total Eclipse in comics. Now that the franchise has been reigned in to doing simpler, less branching stories, it's hard to include him without omitting at least some of what made him work in his heyday.

So it's either use his developed character in a limited capacity (which Sonic Team and apparently a few fans don't want) or fudge it just to make him stand out more as a big deal.

All that really says to me is that Sonic Team can’t properly write the character the way they used to, because why would any of his traits actually need to be omitted or limited to make him work?

We can have him as a bored Unfunny we can laugh at due to being surrounded by buffoons or have him intentionally placed in a narrative unbecoming of him that stirs a giggle while at the same time garnering sympathy at his plight; we can have him lounge and relax in less intense stories showing how he is on a normal regular day. It just seems like artificially restraining him in places he could actually grow from.

5 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's the point. I didn't change shit at the surface level but at the very least made them mildly entertaining.

I know. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you from the start—you don’t have to change their whole characters entirely to make them worthwhile.  
 

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I know. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you from the start—you don’t have to change their whole characters entirely to make them worthwhile.  

You do have to though as what I said can't work at this point as we've established what they are etc. What I put down was mere hindsight of how they should have been from the beginning. They can't become what I said because that's not what they are. That's what I'm trying to say. Their roots are garbage so building on their roots with depth won't help. For example you can say Zomom eats a bunch cause his mom doesn't love him.....it's implied in Lost World but I don't care he still acts boring and uninteresting so knowing his reason does jack shit.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

You do have to though as what I said can't work at this point as we've established what they are etc. What I put down was mere hindsight of how they should have been from the beginning. They can't become what I said because that's not what they are. That's what I'm trying to say. Their roots are garbage so building on their roots with depth won't help. 

Actually, yes they can. At any point they can be made exactly like that, all that’s needed is a situation that divides them (kinda like where they are now).

And they don’t really have any roots to begin with beyond originating from Lost Hex, so I don’t see where one can’t be built.

The real question is whether they’ll actually go that route at a certain point, and that’s not something that can be accurately answered in the near future.

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Actually, yes they can. At any point they can be made exactly like that, all that’s needed is a situation that divides them (kinda like where they are now).

And they don’t really have any roots to begin with, so I don’t see where one can’t be built.

The real question is whether they’ll actually go that far, and that’s not something that can be accurately answered in the near future.

Look I'm just gonna agree to disagree at this point haha. The biggest pain is spending my brain power on these characters at all. I'd rather not even butt heads on them period. 

That was a fun talk 

[Wraith]

I don't think there's a point in debating someone who isn't particularly endeared to them as characters. Even under Ian's pen they're kind of destined to just fill that "punching bag" role they were made for. They're characters that lack nuance beyond their negative traits and thus are easy to use to generate conflict. They're still koopalings, even when their dialogue is bearable. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I mean there’s nothing wrong with having a punching bag either. Prior to Archie Sonic’s first reboot, we had one in the form of Drago Wolf for that exact purpose, so having six punching bags with the Deadly Six is all the merrier if all we need is a character or more to get their ass kicked.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I don’t really mind the Deadly Six reappearing because I think Ian at least did a decent job on Zavok in Bad Guys, arguably better than he’s been used before, I’m just more frustrated that it hasn’t even been ten issues since he last appeared and they’re already back as the villains.

Like, throughout IDW, we’ve gone Metal>Eggman>Zavok>Starline>Eggman again (maybe)>Zavok again, and that’s not including the fact that if you took Bad Guys into account, it’s significantly less than ten issues ago we last saw the Deadly Six. I really wish we could just get a new villain introduced already. Mimic was the last one they introduced a hell of a long time ago and he IMO still remains the most interesting out of any of IDW’s villains thus far.

[Wraith]

If you're willing to admit that there's not much to them then you shouldn't be shocked that nobody is really excited for more. 

[VO.SUPER]

It would be cool if Ian was allowed to establish a backstory for the Zeti. It could go a long way towards developing them. It'd depend on SEGA though to say, "Yeah fine."

[Rabbitearsblog]

It's pretty interesting that the hot conversation on this series went from how Shadow was being portrayed in this series to whether or not it's relevant to have the Deadly Six come back to the series. 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

More like the curse of fucking up his character.

We’ve seen a damn good Shadow be well-written, angst and Black Arms past included—that last part I would’ve wanted cut out entirely in any other circumstances.

 

I don't really have the same vehement hatred that every one else has; characters aren't always going to have good writing, and given how controversial Shadow was, even at his best, I don't expect anything he does to not ruffle people's feathers. 

He's too prominent of a figure to not ruffle people in some way. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

55 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If you're willing to admit that there's not much to them then you shouldn't be shocked that nobody is really excited for more. 

No one’s shocked tho.

But a character not having much of anything means more can be done with them if the chance is given. If anything, most of the comic cast is in good hands barring Sega’s interference on certain portrayals.

[DabigRG]

21 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So, their group dynamics—their personalities interacting or clashing with each other and the rest of the cast.

And where exactly did you have to change their whole character to come up with this?  All you’re really doing is making them more or less cooperative and effective based on a given situation they’re in. That’s not really a massive change of their characters.

 

I mean Zor's passive aggressive prick in canon, but other than that, he only made Zazz as manic mentally as he is everywhere else.

 

24 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

You don’t have to like something to understand the appeal of it, nor do you have to dislike something to understand why something is unappealing, dude.

That's fair.

 

18 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

. They're still shallow uninteresting characters as I wrote them, but at least there is some fun there so they don't completely charisma suck away all entertainment. 

They don't just suck, they charisma suck.

18 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I wrote my own shallow 2D characters of what could at the very least work to not make them feel like a total waste of time. Context really is something. 

I just saw and it's solid for what it is. It's good to have examples/scenarios for these type of discussions.

 

21 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

All that really says to me is that Sonic Team can’t properly write the character the way they used to, because why would any of his traits actually need to be omitted or limited to make him work?

Because he doesn't have his own side of the story to star in, Team Dark isn't remotely a thing officially, there's no tailor made villain that can believably give him a challenge or affirm how far he's come, and has to contend with the fact that Sonic (or sometimes other characters) is the protagonist of the proper story.

It's not necessarily the traits that are the problem, but the ability to use their characteristics and emphasize the qualities of what makes it feel like a story with Shadow in it.

21 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

We can have him as a bored Unfunny we can laugh at due to being surrounded by buffoons or have him intentionally placed in a narrative unbecoming of him that stirs a giggle while at the same time garnering sympathy at his plight; we can have him lounge and relax in less intense stories showing how he is on a normal regular day. It just seems like artificially restraining him in places he could actually grow from.

I know. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you from the start—you don’t have to change their whole characters entirely to make them worthwhile.  
 

Well that runs into a different part of the problem: almost everytime we've seen him lately, it's been less "Hey Shadow, long time no see" and more "Yo, Shadow's here--things are about to get intense."

 

38 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

You do have to though as what I said can't work at this point as we've established what they are etc. What I put down was mere hindsight of how they should have been from the beginning. They can't become what I said because that's not what they are. That's what I'm trying to say. Their roots are garbage so building on their roots with depth won't help. 

 

35 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Actually, yes they can. At any point they can be made exactly like that, all that’s needed is a situation that divides them (kinda like where they are now).

And they don’t really have any roots to begin with beyond originating from Lost Hex, so I don’t see where one can’t be built.

The real question is whether they’ll actually go that route at a certain point, and that’s not something that can be accurately answered in the near future.

I'm gonna cut in the middle man here and say Deebz is being too total about the right problem: what has being gimping the Zeti from day one is not their entire content, but their context.

In Lost World, the Zeti were arguably within their rights to lash out when Eggman enslaved them to colonize their land and Sonic just treated them as fodder to step around on his way up to Eggman;where they crossed the line is deciding to wipe out the entire world below just to primarily get back at Eggman and continue to target Sonic. But the story never really acknowledges the former past Eggman using the Conch on them and instead just treats them as a greater evil that Sonic hastily took off the leash.

While obviously under different circumstances, both Worlds Unite(well not really, but I honestly don't remember what Sigma was up to in comparison) and for the most part IDW(which at least had scenes before their inclusion and maybe after the climax) were primarily operating off if that first impression, with only a bit of flavor being applied to pass the time. They were just bad guys brought in courtesy the real masterminds to fight the good guys as they try to save the world and got to do/be little else.

The catch 22 that separates the Zeti from every other recurring Sonic character besides Eggman Nega and I guess Vanilla is that they've only ever been the antagonists to root against rather than the true focal points of what is [at least partially] their story, which is obvious in comparison to Eggman(SA2, Lost World) Metal(Rivals 2, Sonic 4, arguably Heroes), Chaos, Shadow, and the Babylon Rogues; one can even make a case that the other straightforward villains(Eggman in the Modern era, Void, Mephiles/Solaris, Infinite) at least got a puzzle piece that can lobbed in that direction.

Sure, they have a few moments that sorta carry that feel, but it's seldom enough to even split between the six of them. It's precisely why Bad Guys(and in theory TSR) was such a standout, as Zavok finally shed the Big Bad moniker and joined a group of [villain] protagonists in their own little side story. He's still evil by nature, but with them being the focal point of the story, he got to be an active agent of it and expressed way more characterization (governed by notes from Sonic Team themselves, for the record) than he did in Lost World aka the closest claim he had to being an okay character.

That, in addition to the lack of sufficient lore or personal motivation, is where they're disability as staying powers lie.

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

No one’s shocked tho.

But a character not having much of anything means more can be done with them if the chance is given. If anything, most of the comic cast is in good hands barring Sega’s interference on certain portrayals.

if I don't care about a character, then no amount of "potential" they have is going to endear me to them. 

This is partially why Silver is still somewhat overlooked aside from diehard fans. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I mean there’s nothing wrong with having a punching bag either. Prior to Archie Sonic’s first reboot, we had one in the form of Drago Wolf for that exact purpose, so having six punching bags with the Deadly Six is all the merrier if all we need is a character or more to get their ass kicked.

It's worth noting that he got tired of that and so repurposed him into an Egg Boss who, iirc, had some form of suggestion/leash installed in him and had an implied insecurity to him.

But then he's been wanting to do more with the Oni anyway, so problem solved.

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I don’t really mind the Deadly Six reappearing because I think Ian at least did a decent job on Zavok in Bad Guys, arguably better than he’s been used before, I’m just more frustrated that it hasn’t even been ten issues since he last appeared and they’re already back as the villains.

Like, throughout IDW, we’ve gone Metal>Eggman>Zavok>Starline>Eggman again (maybe)>Zavok again, and that’s not including the fact that if you took Bad Guys into account, it’s significantly less than ten issues ago we last saw the Deadly Six. I really wish we could just get a new villain introduced already.

We did have Clutch for part of the Chao Races and I suspect we'll be seeing a nebulous new character who could go that way in the upcoming Belle story, so it's not like they haven't been trying.

Still, it's also a reflection of his limited the antagonistic cast is especially in comparison to either continuity of Archie.

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Mimic was the last one they introduced a hell of a long time ago and he IMO still remains the most interesting out of any of IDW’s villains thus far.

Really now?

50 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

It's pretty interesting that the hot conversation on this series went from how Shadow was being portrayed in this series to whether or not it's relevant to have the Deadly Six come back to the series. 

Fine by me, honestly.

They need the work a helluva lot more than he does.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

if I don't care about a character, then no amount of "potential" they have is going to endear me to them. 

Okay, then enjoy the characters you do care about. Simple as that.

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is partially why Silver is still somewhat overlooked aside from diehard fans.

Which has a lot more to do with how Sonic Team has handled him along with not promoting him along with the rest of the cast. But that’s for a different topic all together...

[SnooPigu]

Anyone having a problem Shadow losing every fight hes been in this comic so far?

[Fire-N-Space]

17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Shouldn't that make it easier to plausibly do things with them then?

I want to see Sega do things with them not have internet criticism down playing everything dictating their actions.