Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[MetalSkulkBane]

3 minutes ago, SnooPigu said:

Anyone having a problem Shadow losing every fight hes been in this comic so far?

I didn't bothered me... for first 3-4 times

Afterwards it's just hard to ignore. I know "winning isn't everything", but this arguments looses credibility with each Shadow appearance.

Imagine playing Overwatch or TF2 and loosing 3 games in a row. That can still be fun, why not. Now imagine you lost 12 games in a row. Tell me if you're still having fun.

[Kuzu]

I'm way too old to care about power levels; but I can't expect everyone else to feel that way, so it's whatever to me.

 

 

36 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Okay, then enjoy the characters you do care about. Simple as that.

And if I character you don't like shows up, I think people have a right to voice their displeasure with it.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Fire-N-Space said:

I want to see Sega do things with them not have internet criticism down playing everything dictating their actions. 

That's a bit weird to consider since they haven't used them collectively since that arc in Sonic Runners.

1 hour ago, SnooPigu said:

Anyone having a problem Shadow losing every fight hes been in this comic so far?

I have a problem with Shadow starting a fight in almost every issue he's been in if that's what you mean.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

And if I character you don't like shows up, I think people have a right to voice their displeasure with it.

I don’t see anyone here saying they don’t, so not even sure what you’re trying to get at.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

And if I character you don't like shows up, I think people have a right to voice their displeasure with it.

Do they have to do it every time?

This can go both ways but people aren't as positively vocal about characters showing up

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I don’t see anyone here saying they don’t, so not even sure what you’re trying to get at.

Didn't this get started because you objected to someone being upset about the Deadly Six showing up in a future arc?

 

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Do they have to do it every time?

This can go both ways but people aren't as positively vocal about characters showing up

Because its more cathartic to talk about stuff that you hate. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

We did have Clutch for part of the Chao Races and I suspect we'll be seeing a nebulous new character who could go that way in the upcoming Belle story, so it's not like they haven't been trying.

Considering Clutch ends up getting beaten unceremoniously, and then has his main villain role upended by Starline, he doesn't really count. The arc was neat when it seemed like it was going to introduce this shady underground like character trying to act legit, but it's a moot point when he doesn't really do much in the end.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Really now?

In my opinion - yeah. Starline is severely overused in the comic IMO, and I've gone over my issues with him time and time again. The skunk bros are just kind of there IMO. Mimic is a villain with an interesting backstory, a very unique skillset, and his abilities to turn into anyone and anything gives off a incredibly creepy vibe that any other villain can't really do. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

31 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Didn't this get started because you objected to someone being upset about the Deadly Six showing up in a future arc?

Even if that were the case, where at any point did I say no one was allowed to express their dislike of the Deadly Six? (Especially when during the whole thing I also said I didn’t like them and outlined problems me and plenty of others have with the Deadly Six)

My main objection was on the idea of characters having zero potential, which is what I was actually challenging given the millions of times people throw that around for characters they don’t like.

[Kuzu]

If you weren't doing that, then I apologize. 

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Because its more cathartic to talk about stuff that you hate. 

I just find there's more to talk about -- in negatives

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Considering Clutch ends up getting beaten unceremoniously, and then has his main villain role upended by Starline, he doesn't really count. The arc was neat when it seemed like it was going to introduce this shady underground like character trying to act legit, but it's a moot point when he doesn't really do much in the end.

In my opinion - yeah. Starline is severely overused in the comic IMO, and I've gone over my issues with him time and time again. The skunk bros are just kind of there IMO. Mimic is a villain with an interesting backstory, a very unique skillset, and his abilities to turn into anyone and anything gives off a incredibly creepy vibe that any other villain can't really do. 

Oh okay, when you put it like that, it makes some sense.

[MetalSkulkBane]

13 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm way too old to care about power levels; but I can't expect everyone else to feel that way, so it's whatever to me.

It's not about power levels, you're missing the point. I don't need Shadow to be Mary Sue Jesus Chuck Norris.

Imagine your favorite character is Cream, but every appearance she tries to help, but just ends up being captured. Like no once or twice, but 6 times in a row. Or if Tails used inventions in fight, but they never-ever worked.

 

[Kuzu]

If it serves a purpose in the story, then whats the problem? It would be annoying, but its really not a big deal at the end of the day.

Like I get the need to see your favorite characters looking good, but Shadow looking cool and winning fights wouldn't change the stories that he's been in. 

 

That's why I said that its such a minor thing to be upset about; literally the same thing Tails fans complain about when he's "too weak" when that's not even the biggest issue.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Like I get the need to see your favorite characters looking good, but Shadow looking cool and winning fights wouldn't change the stories that he's been in.

...I think you incorrectly formed argument here?

If we state that  if "Shadow being cool wouldn't affect the story" then logic dictates he should be cool, because story would still work just fine  AND his fans would be happy.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

If it serves a purpose in the story, then whats the problem? It would be annoying, but its really not a big deal at the end of the day.

 

Indulge me for a second. Let's look at issue #36.
- There is a giant avalanche that supposedly is big treat. Whole drama hangs on it.
- Shadow's ego been causing troubles for last 3 years and he finally decides to work with Sonic.
- Story end with Shadow not helping and avalanche being dangerous like box of matches at the bottom of the sea.

Imagine alternative scenario: Right after Belle kicked Starline in the beak, Shadow appears in the room. He glares angrily at Starline, but passes him and jumps outside to the avalanche. He uses his Chaos Control powers to slow down time.
This is enough to distracts Starline for a few seconds. In this confusion Sonic runs around, carrying everyone to safety. Shadow buys him just few/several seconds, but that's just enough to get everyone to safe spot, like a bunker in this building. Shadow lets go and avalanche buries only him and Starline.
Then even play out exactly like in a book, only Sonic was never buried.

Scene I described isn't complicated. We can gain 2  by removing Sonic/Shadow failed plan , maybe 3rd by deleting few now unnecessary panels.

 

Now, I'm not a professional writer, payed by IDW and worshiped by fandom. I'm just a doofus who wrote few fanfics that no one reads. So illuminate me how my scenarios is vastly inferior to the one that required to sacrifice Shadow once again on the altar of "purpose in the story". Because frankly it eludes me.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Indulge me for a second. Let's look at issue #36.
- There is a giant avalanche that supposedly is big treat. Whole drama hangs on it.
- Shadow's ego been causing troubles for last 3 years and he finally decides to work with Sonic.
- Story end with Shadow not helping and avalanche being dangerous like box of matches at the bottom of the sea.

What's important isn't whether or not Shadow stopped the avalanche, but that he put off going after Starline and put aside his grudge against Sonic to try to help protect people.

[Kuzu]

And I once again state, this is meaningless to me. Maybe it matters more to you and other people but I honestly care more about character's overall contribution to the story over if they look cool or not. Shadow losing doesn't affect me in any way, and I'm old enough to be secure in my favorites not always looking good. It's ok for characters to screw up. 

And your scenario doesn't really change anything about the overall outcome of the story arc besides just giving Shadow a moment to look cool, which kind of goes back to my point about you being more concerned about your favorites doing cool shit than the actual story itself.  And if that's your concern, then fine. But like...bro, it's ok for Shadow to screw up. He doesn't always have to be the one in control of the situation and be one of the key players in every story arc he's in. It's ok for him to be in a more supportive role where his contributions are minimal.  As Diogenes mentioned, the important part of the issue is Shadow getting over himself and helping Sonic, not if he stops the avalanche or not. 

 

This is something I would have probably argued about if I was fourteen years old, and cared more about characters doing cool shit. And rest assured, I love watching characters kick ass. But I'm 27, not 14 so I can appreciate characters doing more mundane stuff without getting insecure about it.

 

[Zaysho]

I honestly think for the narrative it was more important this Shadow stopped throwing a tantrum and attempted to do the right thing for a change. Especially coming off the heels of the big L he took at the start of the Metal Virus arc.

It's just a step closer for him to actually becoming a more likeable character after the bizarre emphasis on making him look like a belligerent jackass.

[Sega DogTagz]

Shadow gave us what we needed to see. In his last truckload of appearances, he's been "Hard Pass", "Not Interested", "Go F#ck Yourself" at every opportunity to contribute to the collective, even when their goals would likely have aligned. By choosing to join up with Sonic, he showed that he is now willing to actually take a second to think about the ramifications and the objective before putting on the horse blinders and blitzing straight ahead.

That's the single biggest milestone he needed to hurdle to get his character train going in the right direction. We don't need him to fall in line with Sonic and Co., but we do need him to be able to realize that at the very least scorning the people who are on the same side is counterproductive. Shadow has been little more than a Bull charging at a matador's cape lately. Its hard to be an effective character when that hair trigger allows anyone and everyone to dictate your next move. Shadow has to reel that back in if he's to regain any sense of control over his own narrative. For the first time since the start of Metal Virus, it feels like he is starting to do just that.

 

I'm happy with what we got out of his latest appearance. The debt repaid quip while subsequently feeding the Chao also allows him to maintain his morally ambiguous stance, and keep his distance from the rest of the group.

[Kuzu]

31 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I honestly think for the narrative it was more important this Shadow stopped throwing a tantrum and attempted to do the right thing for a change. Especially coming off the heels of the big L he took at the start of the Metal Virus arc.

It's just a step closer for him to actually becoming a more likeable character after the bizarre emphasis on making him look like a belligerent jackass.

I feel like this has been  a ( very flawed) attempt at breathing some life into the character by giving him some very flawed character traits that he has to work past. As opposed to just being a team player who is willing to work with anyone, no there's some actual friction whenever Shadow shows up, because you don't know if he'll actually help...or just make shit worse.

Which is....frustrating, to say the least, but it keeps the intrigue around the character I suppose than if he were just a willing ally and nothing else. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

 But like...bro, it's ok for Shadow to screw up

For fudge sake... I know that. I LIKE when characters screw up.

Your arguments on this event are like price tag on rare  object: high, but drops rapidly as object becomes more common (gosh, that's tortured metaphor). Your technically right, but sheer quantity does have change things.

Let me use absurd hyperbole.

Image Sonic story would involve him kicking dude in a balls. Imagine it works in the context, maybe is kinda funny and whole story is considered pretty good. So who cares, right?

Now imagine 3 years has passed and Sonic been kicking people in the balls in every story he's been in. By now you start wondering what's writers obsession with this one gag. Newcomers start knowing Sonic as "this dude who kicks people in balls". And even if gag is dropped, it will never go away. Like many parts of Sonic past, it will forever get stuck to him. (Also that strongly implies that writers just doesn't know how to write story about Sonic without making him kick people and that just speaks poorly of their writing skills.)

I know that his characterization is bigger problem, but that's Sega mandate, that I have to live with. His endless marathon of failure is just little bonus, free of charge.

[Kuzu]

I honestly have no idea what I can even say at this point. Like I said, I don't care if Shadow loses or not. Think you're focusing on the wrong things and missing the entire point of the story. But it's clearly a bigger deal for you than it is for me, so agree to disagree I guess. I don't really have much else to add. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I honestly have no idea what I can even say at this point. Like I said, I don't care if Shadow loses or not. Think you're focusing on the wrong things and missing the entire point of the story. But it's clearly a bigger deal for you than it is for me, so agree to disagree I guess. I don't really have much else to add. 

Fine then. Last point and I promise to shut up.

You said that "your scenario doesn't really change anything about the overall outcome of the story arc besides just giving Shadow a moment to look cool, "

I could argue that it gives payoff to avalanche, but whatever.

If it doesn't change anything then why not use it? It gives exactly same outcome, but shuts traps of every Shadow fanboy. So why not do it? You argued that "if failure serves the plot, then it's not a problem".  But I just proved it doesn't. Unless I'm missing something.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Fine then. Last point and I promise to shut up.

You said that "your scenario doesn't really change anything about the overall outcome of the story arc besides just giving Shadow a moment to look cool, "

I could argue that it gives payoff to avalanche, but whatever.

If it doesn't change anything then why not use it? It gives exactly same outcome, but shuts traps of every Shadow fanboy. So why not do it? You argued that "if failure serves the plot, then it's not a problem".  But I just proved it doesn't. Unless I'm missing something.

Sometimes fans aren't worth trying to please because the nature of fandom is that they're unpleasable. You could literally cater to every whim of the fandom, and someone would still complain about it. 

If you're main concern is trying to please people, then the quality of your work is going to suffer for it. 

 

If Shadow fanboys can't tolerate him not being the most powerful person in the scene, then that's on them. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

On 2/21/2021 at 8:49 PM, Kuzu said:

Sometimes fans aren't worth trying to please because the nature of fandom is that they're unpleasable. You could literally cater to every whim of the fandom, and someone would still complain about it. 

If you're main concern is trying to please people, then quality of your work is going to suffer for it. 

....adding scene of character doing something cool with zero drawback to narrative would somehow reduce quality of the story. Sure.

Well promise is promise. We're both tired of yapping about hedgehog-I-won't-mention. Let's pick new topic.

 

I know, how about a story where Knuckles gets tricked to trust Eggman. I know it's been done to death and everyone hates it, but as long as it serves the story it fine.

...that was petty of me and I'm shutting up now.

[SnooPigu]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

...I think you incorrectly formed argument here?

If we state that  if "Shadow being cool wouldn't affect the story" then logic dictates he should be cool, because story would still work just fine  AND his fans would be happy.

 

Indulge me for a second. Let's look at issue #36.
- There is a giant avalanche that supposedly is big treat. Whole drama hangs on it.
- Shadow's ego been causing troubles for last 3 years and he finally decides to work with Sonic.
- Story end with Shadow not helping and avalanche being dangerous like box of matches at the bottom of the sea.

Imagine alternative scenario: Right after Belle kicked Starline in the beak, Shadow appears in the room. He glares angrily at Starline, but passes him and jumps outside to the avalanche. He uses his Chaos Control powers to slow down time.
This is enough to distracts Starline for a few seconds. In this confusion Sonic runs around, carrying everyone to safety. Shadow buys him just few/several seconds, but that's just enough to get everyone to safe spot, like a bunker in this building. Shadow lets go and avalanche buries only him and Starline.
Then even play out exactly like in a book, only Sonic was never buried.

Scene I described isn't complicated. We can gain 2  by removing Sonic/Shadow failed plan , maybe 3rd by deleting few now unnecessary panels.

 

Now, I'm not a professional writer, payed by IDW and worshiped by fandom. I'm just a doofus who wrote few fanfics that no one reads. So illuminate me how my scenarios is vastly inferior to the one that required to sacrifice Shadow once again on the altar of "purpose in the story". Because frankly it eludes me.

I agree.