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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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18 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

....adding scene of character doing something cool with zero drawback to narrative would somehow reduce quality of the story. Sure.

Well promise is promise. We're both tired of yapping about hedgehog-I-won't-mention. Let's pick new topic.

 

I know, how about a story where Knuckles is stupid  and gets tricked by Eggman. I know it's been done to death and everyone hates it, but as long as it serves the story it fine.

...that was petty of me and I'm shutting up now.

You're not helping your case at all if you're gonna act like this. 

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If the goal is to use him as a tool to make Sonic better, then that could be a reason. I'm not saying that it's the case here particularly, but you can find some reasons.

For better or worse, this is (no longer) a World of Sonic comic, but more a Sonic one.

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Shadow has a pretty clear cut character arc about putting others before his own ego. If your only take away from all of that is that he wasn't being presented as some all powerful figure that saves the day, then yea, you kind of missed the point of the story. Yes, it might have been cool to watch him kick ass, but that's not what the story was about, so it really shouldn't what people should be concerned about.

Can you guys please stop giving Shadow fans a bad name by only being concerned about power levels and character feats?

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1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

You're not helping your case at all if you're gonna act like this. 

Please forgive me for using arguments, examples and snarky wit in argumentation.

This discussion is finished, I'm just replying to you. Don't reply back and you're free of this clearly irrational fanboy.

And I already explained,  that it's not about powers levels.

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40 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I know, how about a story where Knuckles is stupid  and gets tricked by Eggman. I know it's been done to death and everyone hates it, but as long as it serves the story it fine.

I mean Knuckles continues to be dumb and gullible so this probably will happen eventually, yes.

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean Knuckles continues to be dumb and gullible so this probably will happen eventually, yes.

Characters aren't allowed to have flaws dude, don't you know. They have to always be positive and on point. 

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Well she's not an active fighter and has no real personal reasons for getting involved.

The best I can see is her being dragged along on some conflict involving Tangle and Whisper as the odd woman out.

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The dislike for Shadow in IDW is obvious and i'm surprise gets so much pushback. He's not allowed to do anything interesting. This'll continue to be an issue until we get a regular Shadow appearance, which I think will happen eventually.

If the book got cancelled today, Shadow's treatment would be terrible, but I feel like the more he appears and we get through this weird phase, it'll be easier to like him.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Well she's not an active fighter and has no real personal reasons for getting involved.

The best I can see is her being dragged along on some conflict involving Tangle and Whisper as the odd woman out.

Pretty much my first guess as well.

After all, she was designed to be a Tails/Cream to Tangle and also acts as something of a minder for her. Add in her musuem of rare gems and she's got to have some sort of skill that would allow her to fit into an adventure scenario. It's just a matter of actually seeing it happen, past or present.

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2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

The dislike for Shadow in IDW is obvious and i'm surprise gets so much pushback. He's not allowed to do anything interesting. This'll continue to be an issue until we get a regular Shadow appearance, which I think will happen eventually.

If the book got cancelled today, Shadow's treatment would be terrible, but I feel like the more he appears and we get through this weird phase, it'll be easier to like him.

Because its obvious that despite how polarizing this new interpretation of him is, he still manages to garner people's attention.

Like I said, this is Sega's misguided attempts at keeping him fresh.

 

You know all of those weird ass writing changes that happen in Marvel and DC? Yea, that's what this is.

23 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much my first guess as well.

After all, she was designed to be a Tails/Cream to Tangle and also acts as something of a minder for her. Add in her musuem of rare gems and she's got to have some sort of skill that would allow her to fit into an adventure scenario. It's just a matter of actually seeing it happen, past or present.

Would need an arc focused on Tangle for that.

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On 2/21/2021 at 6:30 PM, DabigRG said:

and she's got to have some sort of skill that would allow her to fit into an adventure scenario. It's just a matter of actually seeing it happen, past or present.

This series has chaos emeralds, phantom rubies, warp topaz and a gaggle of self described treasure hunters. Jewel's expertise as either a tracker or appraiser would be in high demand if the story ever needed to throw her front and center.  I'm half surprised Starline never attempted to pump her for any info on where he might be able to mine a second warp topaz. If anyone would know, it would be her...

That being said I don't think she ever needs to be thrust into that spotlight. She serves her purpose as a supporting cast member and can have her small victories by being helpful here and there. She pulls her weight by doing the little things, like admin.

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On 2/20/2021 at 8:29 AM, DabigRG said:

Yeah, IDW was bound to be a lot more barren compared to Archie with it's original content and that's not including both Sega's mandates and Flynn being less beholden to it.

In the case of characters, they almost always have to be painstakingly conceptualized, pitched, designed, and redesigned in order to officially make into the book. The big three OCs went through numerous changes and tests before they were ready to go and even the smaller names had to contend with at least one redesign per what Sonic Team would allow at the time.

Lanolin, Scruffy, and Stars only got so far out of convenience.

I mean its so barren the world is nameless. And its to make the world much like the characters who live on it these days, more malleable. That will likely come in handy because I think if the movies continue to exist and be successful and the cartoon is what I think it is sonic's world and the characterization of those who live on it are going to go through some pretty big overhauls. For better, or for worse

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On 2/21/2021 at 6:53 PM, Kuzu said:

Because its obvious that despite how polarizing this new interpretation of him is, he still manages to garner people's attention.

Like I said, this is Sega's misguided attempts at keeping him fresh.

 

 

Its funny you say that. A shadow the hedgehog type character in DC is going through something right now. Occasionally the out of touch people in charge have ideas on how to enhance a brand or a character that's just that, out of touch. And everyone including the audience who doesn't enjoy these changes has to deal until the person leaves is removed from what they are doing in some cases or it get so bad they are forced to abandon ship or maybe the concept entirely. 

We are in a weird position where it feels likes sega doesn't hold the comic book in high enough regard to read the disdain as anything other than a minority. There's this weird feeling where a collective group of fans are expecting and almost waiting on a failure on a bigger product like the game and the cartoon to get bad reception so sega can change course. 

On 2/21/2021 at 4:50 PM, thumbs13 said:

The dislike for Shadow in IDW is obvious and i'm surprise gets so much pushback. He's not allowed to do anything interesting. This'll continue to be an issue until we get a regular Shadow appearance, which I think will happen eventually./

To be fair to sega, I would say that he is allowed to do interesting things. But it seems both writers are invested in trying to fix him emotionally he is rather ineffective as a character and this in itself is also a problem albeit from a good place. 

Quote



If the book got cancelled today, Shadow's treatment would be terrible, but I feel like the more he appears and we get through this weird phase, it'll be easier to like him.

I do agree we need a regular shadow appearance, because shadow hasn't really had one in the book. He never got a story where we got a clear motivation from him. I think writing a story where he gets to be the cool competent operator people expect him to be with a success along with establishing something in regards to why he's doing anything might do a lot for people who want this character to at least be decent. 

I've seen the suggestion to give him a mini series. And I suppose something like that may help. I also feel like there are other issues that wouldn't help. I think something he desperately needs than his previous comic iteration did is interact with this characters and world at large. As of currently shadow feels like a fever dream that sonic rouge, omega and sometimes amy and eggman  have. His actions have very little effect on the world around him and he leaves very little impression on few people which is particularly odd for someone with a very strong personality. Stories where's around but like actually get to not just be competent but interact with other's will do wonders. Show new dynamics and avenues where the character can be characterized. And at least in my opinion, giving him a mini-series is just asking Ian to isolate him again which doesn't help. 

I do agree that shadow appearing more and being better and doing things would help. But if no one is thinking of what the character needs. Its only going to make things worse

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On 2/21/2021 at 1:40 PM, Zaysho said:

I honestly think for the narrative it was more important this Shadow stopped throwing a tantrum and attempted to do the right thing for a change. Especially coming off the heels of the big L he took at the start of the Metal Virus arc.

It's just a step closer for him to actually becoming a more likeable character after the bizarre emphasis on making him look like a belligerent jackass.

This seems like revisionism. Because he's always done the right thing. In this book I mean. 
In issue 6 he's willing to make a choice that's rather grim to help the whole. Later in that book. He decides against it and listens. In 19 while he is helping his response to sonic didn't come from anywhere, as flawed as it turned out to be it came from the previous interaction. And prior to that outburst that everyone hates he was, helping people. In the recent issues, it can easily be interpreted as shadow a character who still is reasonably upset that he could have stopped everything if he hadn't listened to sonic and rouge attempting to solve a problem. Having found the cause of so much of the books issues so far. 

The idea that he did the right thing for a change is a weird perspective. An why this book for so many didn't scan. He's been doing the right thing the entire time. This lesson is one he was already aware of , his ire prior was justified in a sense. The only lesson he learned here was " never defy the protagonist know your place" . I don't really know how I can read that as anything different. 

 

 

On 2/21/2021 at 2:49 PM, Kuzu said:

 

 

If Shadow fanboys can't tolerate him not being the most powerful person in the scene, then that's on them. 

I don't know if this is your intention. But this feels like you and some others don't want shadow fans in the fanbase. And while that is certainly a prerogative you can have.  I feel as though its rather toxic and a bad look. 

 

On 2/21/2021 at 3:58 PM, Kuzu said:

Characters aren't allowed to have flaws dude, don't you know. They have to always be positive and on point. 

...He's done nothing positive for 4 years.   If this was archie I would agree with you, but this isn't and he's done nothing positive for 4 years. Its why this argument doesn't hold much weight Nothing he's done , has resulted in anything good for 4 years 

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22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

So has he always done the right thing or has he done nothing positive for four years.

You can do the right thing. And nothing good or positive come out of it and sometimes have the writers actively crap on a character even still. The last part didn't happy Shadow isn't cyclops ( thank god ) but a good example of something similar in this book. 

Shadow was laughed at and was right about what was going to happen to eggman. And not only did he never get to actually chew sonic out about specifically that or address rogues involvement. Even in the alleged " original version " with him sacrificing himself in issue 19,  that would be removing his ability to address these things. But as things went despite being right he was the only one that did actual introspection. Rouge did none and was actively smug about it and sonic just resigned himself to the status quo. This is a scenario where unintentionally the writers have essentially showed the audience that even shadow is right he's wrong and nothing he says matters. 

He's done the right thing the whole time, but he's also done nothing positive for his character or the world at large for 4 years. Because the writers decided that nothing he does, matters. 

Recently Ian Flynn spoke on this specific thing, not even liking the argument or scenario that was presented. And saying the entire thing seemed tonedeaf considering recent world events. It was just an excuse for a narrative to justify why sonic and co don't keep track of eggman. Something that frustrates him. So not only did this actual concession on part of shadow result in nothing positive or none of the characters involved acknowledging he did that. The point of the story was to justify a single plot point that in the long terms didn't end up mattering much and felt tone deaf and out of touch the more time went on. And will likely just go undressed forever. 

So when you get to the last arc shadow is a character "learning a lesson " of something he knew...already. Something he didn't need to learn, if anything the two characters he interacted with may have needed to learn a lesson more than he did. And to evena's credit It felt like she tried to put something in there for rouge albeit small ( it actually does the illusion of change thing I mention later very well ) . But this brings up the bigger issue, sonic characters the game ones can't change. Him learning a lesson is ultimately meaningless , he's going to return to how they want him to be. Epically a lesson his status quo already knew. So focusing on that type of growth that can't go anywhere is ineffective method of developing this character. Thus resulting in him simultaneously doing the right thing, but also doing nothing positive. Ian mentions the illusion of change, but that can't really exist if the thing shadow is contemplating on is something he already agrees with and did the first time he appeared. 

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I feel like your problem is more with the metanarrative rather than the actual narrative itself (And yes, I'm aware of the irony of ME saying this). You're looking at Shadow's actions as justified by real world circumstances, rather than how they correlate in the story itself. Which isn't wrong, but it's kind of flawed. Like you said, none of these characters are going to ever change in meaningful ways because this is a comic book designed to go on indefinitely. But that doesn't mean that you can't judge their actions in the story itself and how that goes. 

I'm not saying it's perfect, especially if Flynn himself has called out how constricted he is by the Status Quo. But like, I liked it for what it was and think you're looking it from a flawed perspective. 

 

 

On a side note, you didn't really need to different posts to respond. 

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Every time Shadow decided to pick a fight with Sonic in the middle of a crisis, he was choosing his grudges over the bigger picture. His last appearance has him choosing the bigger picture over the grudge.  He transitioned from doing the wrong thing to doing the right thing. There's nothing else to it.

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If people want to interpret the story with Sonic and Shadow as "never defy the protagonist ever", fine but that's such a reductive way to seeing it and doesn't really say anything.  The premise was inherently flawed from the beginning, and could only end in the way it did, otherwise it would simply break the narrative of the series. 

Even Archie had no solid answer for this, and outright confirmed that the multiverse straight up enforces the status quo that Sonic has to fight Eggman no matter what, and that will never actually change long term.

 

If Flynn is frustrated by that, then he's working on the wrong series. 

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Preview pages look great.


 

Spoiler

 

Although now I am full on paranoid and looking for Mimic everywhere. Lanolin and Jewel both have heavy "hindsight is 20/20 imposter vibes" going on here

Should have stuck a tracking beacon in that dudes skull.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Preview pages look great.


 

  Hide contents

 

Although now I am full on paranoid and looking for Mimic everywhere. Lanolin and Jewel both have heavy "hindsight is 20/20 imposter vibes" going on here

Should have stuck a tracking beacon in that dudes skull.

 

 

Look at the palms of the hands.

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