Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[SBR2]

38 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

I’m going to be real with you bro I think you should stop being a contrarian or the sake of being one. 

Ok so I can't like the Deadly Six? Nice to know that for such a not a hivemind that daring to have a different view on things makes you a contraian.

[thumbs13]

20 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That has less to do with how dark and mature the content is and more to do with writing quality, and it’s largely agreed that stories like ShTH and Sonic 06 weren’t that good anyway for plenty of reasons beyond how mature they wanted to be seen as.

But even then, we’re calling a spade a spade here—the Metal Virus is astronomically darker than the conspiracy and military raid revealed SA2’s Last Story that people exaggerate as being too dark for a cartoon mascot game. To say government conspiracies and genocide aren’t unsuitable for a cartoony mascot franchise, but content like bioterrorism in the same franchise feels like rising stakes, is a glaring double standard if there ever was one given that neither are what you’d expect in something like Sonic the Hedgehog and are more in the range of series like Resident Evil, especially something like the Metal Virus.

I’m not talking about the themes, I’m talking about the content: conspiracies, genocide, offscreen murder of children (much less bad guys trying to shoot them onscreen with realistic bullets in movies like the Incredibles), Disney has treaded into far darker content than what SA2 has had.

And that’s just Disney. Dreamworks with Kung Fu Panda has genocide in an action-comedy about talking animals doing martial arts.

What Disney animated works hasn’t done, to my knowledge, is bioterrorism. And that’s keeping Star Wars and Marvel out of it.

Bioterrorism is, like, technically correct, but it's just zombies. And Zombies have been done in kids works before.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

18 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Bioterrorism is, like, technically correct, but it's just zombies. And Zombies have been done in kids works before.

So has war, conspiracies, death, and even terrorism itself (we tend to use the term “supervillain” instead, but again a spade’s a spade). The point being, this stuff isn’t out of reach even for a mascot franchise like Sonic.

Edit: And I have to be frank, out of all the schemes I’ve seen Eggman pull in throughout every incarnation he’s been in, a weaponized virus was the last thing I’d imagine he’d ever use. He can make weapons that level cities, but a virus is just creatively insidious.

[Dejimon11]

27 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Ok so I can't like the Deadly Six? Nice to know that for such a not a hivemind that daring to have a different view on things makes you a contraian.

I’m not saying you can’t. This is coming as somebody who actually likes the characters. Your argument for why you like them as @Kuzu pointed out didn’t really feel like a good defense.  

[MetalSkulkBane]

On Zeti

1) We have no idea how strong they are. Game tells us very little. Because Sonic can die to final boos and to Motobug and to accidentally pressing wrong button and walking into a ditch like a dummy. So maybe Sonic beat them in game, but just barely.
Ironically they keep using some kind of enchantments, would that be juice from Lost World, armors in Worlds Unite or Emeralds in Metal Virus World Saga.
So it's a wide guessing range, but I think Sonic would have hard time fighting all six of them at once. Once comic comes out we'll know more.

2) Yeah, I am a little annoyed they back so soon. Not that I dislike them, comic did great job warming me up to them.  But It does makes world feels small and claustrophobic. I am open to possibility that Flynn has plans and good reason to do so, but I am skeptical in nature.

[Red Hot Jack]

I've grown to like the D6 too... they are selfish, genuinely wicked, they kind of have a charm in their design and... bits of what they have as personality, their trope, but yeah, they are not generic dark or anime villains, they are simple and fun, they even have humor instead of super dark traits which has potential IF they are used in actual funny ways. They are psychos.

I'm not sure what is @SBR2's stance, it's not so much for the point of making an "hot take", but just to say I do like them.

Lost World is not a good example for saying the Zeti = bad, after all Tails sucks in that game, it's arguably the worst written Sonic game, and for example Silver also debuted in a shitty game. 

As to whether they fit here, well... they were kept on the loose, right? And Zavok somehow fits into Starline's plot after Bad Guys.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

I’m going to be real with you bro I think you should stop being a contrarian or the sake of being one. 

What makes you think that's their aim?

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

.

I’m not talking about the themes, I’m talking about the content: conspiracies, genocide, offscreen murder of children (much less bad guys trying to shoot them onscreen with realistic bullets in movies like the Incredibles), Disney has treaded into far darker content than what SA2 has had.

And that’s just Disney. Dreamworks with Kung Fu Panda has genocide in an action-comedy about talking animals doing martial arts.

What Disney animated works hasn’t done, to my knowledge, is bioterrorism. And that’s keeping Star Wars and Marvel out of it.

Content, there we go! That's the word I was trying to think of. 

So are you agreeing with the simplicity point or just suggesting Sonic is capable of more intense stuff?

 

 

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So has war, conspiracies, death, and even terrorism itself (we tend to use the term “supervillain” instead, but again a spade’s a spade). The point being, this stuff isn’t out of reach even for a mascot franchise like Sonic.

Ah, okay.

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Edit: And I have to be frank, out of all the schemes I’ve seen Eggman pull in throughout every incarnation he’s been in, a weaponized virus was the last thing I’d imagine he’d ever use. He can make weapons that level cities, but a virus is just creatively insidious.

That was actually a quibble I remember having early on in the arc, funnily enough.

4 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

I’m not saying you can’t. This is coming as somebody who actually likes the characters. Your argument for why you like them as @Kuzu pointed out didn’t really feel like a good defense.  

To be honest, I don't think they were trying to--they were just affirming away from something Mike ended off with.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

2) Yeah, I am a little annoyed they back so soon. Not that I dislike them, comic did great job warming me up to them.  But It does makes world feels small and claustrophobic. I am open to possibility that Flynn has plans and good reason to do so, but I am skeptical in nature.

Which is ironic, considering they come from a land mass hidden in the clouds. I realize that IDW has had an issue with shuffling the same deck for a bit, but that's kinda what we've got to work with while at the mercy of approvals and an intentionally sparse quota.

For what it's worth in this case, the Zeti are a welcome return though I might be biased. As a preface, it's not like we haven't been doing new things since we last saw most of them and that was really only broken by Starline and friggin Shadow hijacking what was supposed to be a Rouge and Cream centered arc.  We knew they were gonna be a roaming issue back when the Metal Virus arc ended--its just that the implication was that they would turn up separately and perhaps set up side stories starring other characters. 

Doing this twist again surprisingly soon, I do feel like this encroaches upon another issue with the comic that is linked with yours in that there seems to be a recurring difficulty letting things breathe and in this case, cool down enough to hit for what are sometimes meant to be big comebacks. 

1 hour ago, Jack-al said:

 

Lost World is not a good example for saying the Zeti = bad, after all Tails sucks in that game, it's arguably the worst written Sonic game, and for example Silver also debuted in a shitty game. 

As to whether they fit here, well... they were kept on the loose, right? And Zavok somehow fits into Starline's plot after Bad Guys.

Yeah, I have to say, that's ultimately a major part oft the fundamental problem with them overall. There's a serious connect between who they are, what they're collecting meant to be, where they're intended to fit or intentionally stand out in this series, and bringing it home, a difficulty with establishing more than just a few of the bare necessities with them.

 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Jack-al said:

...it's arguably the worst written Sonic game...

It's not.

That game is they're debut and however bad a stance it may be, if it was your only exposure to them...it is grounds to call them the opposite of good.

[SBR2]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

What makes you think that's their aim?

Because he thinks that's the only reason I say the things I say. Both here and on twitter.

[dbzfan7]

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

On Zeti

1) We have no idea how strong they are. Game tells us very little. Because Sonic can die to final boos and to Motobug and to accidentally pressing wrong button and walking into a ditch like a dummy. So maybe Sonic beat them in game, but just barely.
Ironically they keep using some kind of enchantments, would that be juice from Lost World, armors in Worlds Unite or Emeralds in Metal Virus World Saga.
So it's a wide guessing range, but I think Sonic would have hard time fighting all six of them at once. Once comic comes out we'll know more.

Perhaps. We know he can at least fight 3 enhanced Zeti back to back when 2 levels have you fight 3 of them in it. Then there's the whole whether you take game balance literally or not as it would make more sense it was a 3 v 1 situation in the story, but the game made it easier by letting you fight them back to back in one level each. You can interpret this how you like.

[VO.SUPER]

I rather like the D6 and have been growing fond of them. I just wish I knew even a bit of what they are. A little context helps with the situation.

[Wraith]

I don't think I'll ever like the Deadly Six but they're much more interesting to watch when they're not limited to the constraints of Modern Sonic's strict artstyle/animations. That new variant cover is great.

[Zaysho]

The Six are pretty bland and generic and their role in the game is to shout empty threats and make Eggman look like less of a loser in comparison. I kind of appreciate them enough in the comics though; I don't think Ian does anything outstanding with them or anything, but I like seeing them act like an actual unit and playing off of each other, and I sort of liked how Zavok was portrayed in the "Bad Guys" mini. I even liked them a bit in that second awful Mega Man crossover because the short stories of them capturing Sonic and Rock showed how they play off of each other and made them look like they can do more than just talk shit.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I rather like the D6 and have been growing fond of them. I just wish I knew even a bit of what they are. A little context helps with the situation.

What, in terms of species or individually?

7 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Perhaps. We know he can at least fight 3 enhanced Zeti back to back when 2 levels have you fight 3 of them in it. Then there's the whole whether you take game balance literally or not as it would make more sense it was a 3 v 1 situation in the story, but the game made it easier by letting you fight them back to back in one level each. You can interpret this how you like.

Oh yeah, realistically speaking, there's no reason Zazz, Zomom, and Master Zik wouldn't have continued their gangpile together.

 

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

It's not.

That game is they're debut and however bad a stance it may be, if it was your only exposure to them...it is grounds to call them the opposite of good.

I mean, considering the competition or even it's own cohesion, he/she's not wrong.

[Kuzu]

I will probably never actually like the Deadly Six; i still feel like they're too bland and boring for me to ever care about them. But, I can at least appreciate what Ian is trying to do with them and make them feel like actual threats. And for what its worth, he did give Zavok some sliver of depth in how he considers the group his pack as opposed to his lackeys.

If the upcoming arc can expand on that familial connection, then I think I can actually start being interested in them. But I won't know until I see it, and given that Sega has an aversion to dynamic and rounded characterization lately, I have my doubts that will happen, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

I wanna care about the Six, but I've had very little reason to.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If the upcoming arc can expand on that familial connection, then I think I can actually start being interested in them. But I won't know until I see it, and given that Sega has an aversion to dynamic and rounded characterization lately, I have my doubts that will happen, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

I wanna care about the Six, but I've had very little reason to.

To give some slight degree of fairness towards SEGA, I imagine that the aversion to dynamic and characterization may matter less to the Zeti. As much as I hate what they're doing to Shadow, and to a lesser degree - Knuckles, they're two of the most popular characters in the entire fandom, to the point Post-Reboot Sonic Universe nearly entirely rotated around those two characters and their adventures, while obviously - the Zeti are far, far more controversial, reception wise in the fandom.

My point being that SEGA are more likely to keep a tighter leash on Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles for example, and what they'll approve and allow in each of their characterisations to ensure they remain as "on-brand" as possible to their whims and visions, than they would the Zeti - a group of villains who get are sparsely used as is, and even less so as an entire group, and who don't have a particular fanbase in general. As long as Ian remains at least somewhere in the ball-park of what their personalities are supposed to be, I imagine SEGA will be more lenient. We already kind of saw it with the Metal Virus arc, where even though they had their personalities in check, they were turned up to eleven, and portrayed as far more cruel and sadistic than in LW for example.

I mean, I could be wrong, it's SEGA that we're talking about, but I have more hope of them caring less about the Zeti than they do towards Shadow, that's for sure.

[Wraith]

If they are SEGA made characters no one will ever be allowed to elaborate on their backstories or relationships in the context of this book though. They can make their encounters more entertaining but the lack of substance that makes them so forgettable will always be there.

[SBR2]

I just don't get why every character needs to have a deep backstory. The Zeti are just a bunch of evil assholes wrecking shit because they're evil assholes. 

Why do we need to know what made them the way they are? Can't they just be jerks? 

[FlameStream]

I think the problem is less that they're simple in background, but more simple in mind/motive/character. The latter typically makes a character hard to care about.

[Wraith]

16 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I just don't get why every character needs to have a deep backstory. The Zeti are just a bunch of evil assholes wrecking shit because they're evil assholes. 

Why do we need to know what made them the way they are? Can't they just be jerks? 

They don't need to do anything. They can keep writing boring characters if they want. I'd just prefer if they didn't.

[Zaysho]

18 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I just don't get why every character needs to have a deep backstory. The Zeti are just a bunch of evil assholes wrecking shit because they're evil assholes. 

Why do we need to know what made them the way they are? Can't they just be jerks? 

Wanting the Six to have some kind of group dynamic and personality beyond what Lost World did isn't asking for "deep backstory" or whatever argument you're making up in your head. They don't actually need to be sympathetic or "deep" or whatever. They just have to do something together and feel like an actual team, because they don't in the games.

Best example is IDW TMNT's version of Bebop and Rocksteady; they're a couple of losers sharing a brain cell that get picked up by the Foot and turned into monsters. They're not deep characters, but they're some of the most fun characters in the entire series because their entire schtick is they're the best of friends who just like kicking ass together. Even when they're bashing the Turtles' brains in they're having the time of their lives. It really isn't asking for much to give the Six something like that, especially since Ian already has.

[Soniman]

Don't think anyone would be demanding more depth if Sega didnt present questions and intrigue but then provided zero answers. What's the Lost Hex? Never explained. What are the Zeti? Never elaborated on. Why are they so aggressively xenophobic to anyone that's not them? Never looked into. Why and how do they control machinery on a world that seemingly had none until Eggman invaded? *shrug* 

They wanna be the Koopalings or similar to a rag tag bunch of villians but the thing with the Koopalings is that Nintendo didn't bother to present them as anything more complex  than Bowser's not-kids henchmen so literally all the justification you need for them to exist is right there. They wanna destroy Mario because that's what Big Boss Bowser wants, simple and easy to understand. The D6 are just this weird anomaly who even 8 years after SLW still have not been given adequate justification for why they exist in the world and why they do what they do, shits baffling because other Sonic characters at LEAST have that going for them 

[Red Hot Jack]

They don't need a motive, they are sick psychos, genuinely wicked, I like that. If anything I would rather have more background lore about them, more info on who they are, rather than what makes them evil, it's not necessary for every villain. And yes, sadly Ian can't add much as he's not allowed, he can only flesh out and expand on the game material. Maybe the encyclospeedia will give us something though?

[DabigRG]

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I will probably never actually like the Deadly Six; i still feel like they're too bland and boring for me to ever care about them. But, I can at least appreciate what Ian is trying to do with them and make them feel like actual threats. And for what its worth, he did give Zavok some sliver of depth in how he considers the group his pack as opposed to his lackeys.

If the upcoming arc can expand on that familial connection, then I think I can actually start being interested in them. But I won't know until I see it, and given that Sega has an aversion to dynamic and rounded characterization lately, I have my doubts that will happen, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

I wanna care about the Six, but I've had very little reason to.

 

7 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

To give some slight degree of fairness towards SEGA, I imagine that the aversion to dynamic and characterization may matter less to the Zeti. As much as I hate what they're doing to Shadow, and to a lesser degree - Knuckles, they're two of the most popular characters in the entire fandom, to the point Post-Reboot Sonic Universe nearly entirely rotated around those two characters and their adventures, while obviously - the Zeti are far, far more controversial, reception wise in the fandom.

My point being that SEGA are more likely to keep a tighter leash on Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles for example, and what they'll approve and allow in each of their characterisations to ensure they remain as "on-brand" as possible to their whims and visions, than they would the Zeti - a group of villains who get are sparsely used as is, and even less so as an entire group, and who don't have a particular fanbase in general. As long as Ian remains at least somewhere in the ball-park of what their personalities are supposed to be, I imagine SEGA will be more lenient. We already kind of saw it with the Metal Virus arc, where even though they had their personalities in check, they were turned up to eleven, and portrayed as far more cruel and sadistic than in LW for example.

I mean, I could be wrong, it's SEGA that we're talking about, but I have more hope of them caring less about the Zeti than they do towards Shadow, that's for sure.

The thing is Sonic Team clearly had some degree of a greater vision for these guys' inclusions in the overall series and that's become even more obvious with the IDW comic to play around in. 

I've generally been of that mindset since first seeing in teasers for Lost World given how different they immediately felt from most villains and the game's handling of their miniscule lore & especially the ending gives impression that they had a sequel in mind, which is somewhat typically of companies like Sega, counting their chickens before they hatch in marketing they're latest creations as the next big thing and basically assuming each product will go over well. I mean, while I did briefly call out how inconsistent and not very cohesive the story is yesterday for the same reason, their having Eggman give them a big name drop(that is never used again, for the record), the emphasized mention of their ability to make machines do "interesting things," and of course Eggman declaring his intent to find another Conch so he can control again while making them stronger for some friggin reason all point to them being  intended to have a continued impact in the series.

I've also usually brought up their various character bios when talking about them, primarily because of the details that sometimes stray from flavor text in favor of stuff that would think would have more precedence when either compared to other characters or when taking how vague many of their characterizations are in practice--Master Zik and Zor have supplemental info that isn't super necessary to understand their characters, but does a fair bit to contextualize the group with relative ease. Hell, one of the reasons I'm generally tickled by Zavok's frequent presence in the games (you know, on top of how out of theme they tend to be for what we understood of him) is that his profiles almost always make him come off as having a more rounded and thought out personality than most of those appearances care to remotely acknowledge in the actual product. The Olympics emphasize his title for the new "Strongest Warrior" [among the Zeti]  in how he feels dedicated to hone his skills when given the opportunity, which is why his seriously vengeful and vaguely sadomasochistic bordering on monstrous character would genuinely be honored to compete in them. And we don't need to explain how infamously confusing his role in Team Sonic Racing's story is, which kinda smells of there being some considerable cut or two even without remembering that Sumo Digital evidently wanted to tell a story using the character universe. It's like there's genuinely some interest behind the scenes to make him a household name as people to to assume is the case, yet also a dispassion in actually doing anything beyond checking off the barest obligation that is his inclusion.

And that brings us to the comic, which is accurately the medium that can make the most out of them. Y'all mentioning Sega preventing expansion and not caring about their portrayal compared to other characters, respectively, is ironic because it was confirmed a good while back that the Deadly Six apparently have about as many notes for how they are to be used as Knuckles and Cream do. Mr. Flynn has in fact touted them a notable example of Sonic Team's tighter oversight, with Zeena in particular having the most directions provided for her, with positive (and the obvious less than high spoken) implications; this has led to one change that we know of in how he originally had her quite literally kick(or heel?) Cream while she was down, but Sega pointed out that it was a step too far for her cruelty. The takeaway here is that, while he obviously had his ideas and intentions for how to use them, what we've gotten from them is more or less Sonic Team's slightly filtered vision.

Their appearance in the upcoming will probably have them be a bit more comical outside of the doomsday scenario(which Zomom wasn't too affected by anyway), but nonetheless more threatening than they were again because they lack the original restraint of having no one to terrorize or endanger personally.