Super Emeralds Deconfirmed for Mania

[Diogenes]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

My post was to cater to those seeking the return of a Hyper concept while also catering to your ideals of avoiding a lot of the baggage that had to come with them.

Except it did nothing to cut down on baggage, it's basically exactly the same as in 3&K but with the names filed off and you can still go Super after starting on the Super Emeralds.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Except it did nothing to cut down on baggage, it's basically exactly the same as in 3&K but with the names filed off and you can still go Super after starting on the Super Emeralds.

Well...

I tried for you.

It gets rid of the whole Super Emerald concept altogether in favor of a more minimal type of "Powered Up" concept that's there if you're good enough and if not, you still get the basics that are dandy on their own.

If it's the idea of challenge/difficulty that bothers you, well... That's why you've still got the basic goods.

It's like you're begging for a steak, but without the meat. Just the bone itself that supported the meat.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It gets rid of the whole Super Emerald concept altogether in favor of a more minimal type of "Powered Up" concept

Which is basically what the Super Emeralds already were. You brought the Chaos Emeralds to Hidden Palace, they turned into bigger emeralds, then you had to power them up. All you changed was that you could still use the Chaos Emeralds while powering them up and that has nothing to do with why I'm against the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms.

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

If it's the idea of challenge/difficulty that bothers you, well...

It has literally nothing to do with that. Like, I'm aware that I may not have explained my issues with it in the clearest of terms, but difficulty has never factored into it at all. My problems with it are more about narrative/thematic impact and redundancy.

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's like you're begging for a steak, but without the meat. Just the bone itself that supported the meat.

It's a bit more like I ordered a steak, which is a good and reasonably sized meal, and people want to put an entire second steak on top of my steak, which is clearly too much, and you're suggesting as a solution that they use a different seasoning on the second steak.

[Chris Knopps]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Which is basically what the Super Emeralds already were. You brought the Chaos Emeralds to Hidden Palace, they turned into bigger emeralds, then you had to power them up. All you changed was that you could still use the Chaos Emeralds while powering them up and that has nothing to do with why I'm against the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms.

It has literally nothing to do with that. Like, I'm aware that I may not have explained my issues with it in the clearest of terms, but difficulty has never factored into it at all. My problems with it are more about narrative/thematic impact and redundancy.

It's a bit more like I ordered a steak, which is a good and reasonably sized meal, and people want to put an entire second steak on top of my steak, which is clearly too much, and you're suggesting as a solution that they use a different seasoning on the second steak.

Your argument pretty much seem to entirely revolve around

"I don't like it, so forget about it. Stick with the basics and skip the extra."

And while there's nothing wrong with wanting the basic experience, something perfected in the most simplistic/minimal manner possible, if the core experience is as fine-tuned as it can get and ready to go, adding extra into the product isn't going to be a detriment in any way, especially if the extra content is irrelevant to the plot and serves only as incentive for challenge seekers to keep coming back and enjoying something tough for the casuals to get their hands on.

It's all well and good you just want the game, the main game, and nothing else. At the same time, it really is fairly closed-minded to be so wholeheartedly against so many, if not all topics that revolve around anything besides the core experience itself being in the games. Though you do strike me as more of a casual player than one dedicated to drawn out experiences, at least with Sonic, and some folks are that way, but the franchise isn't always just a casual experience, or rather, shouldn't be.

Now and then something you can breeze through with no toppings is fine, but it's not a mandatory thing, nor' should it be.

It's great you want to enjoy your steak, but it would help you a lot to open up to the idea of wanting, and being okay, with more, otherwise you'll always go for as minimalistic as possible and that's just not an idea that's kosher with a lot of folks.

[Diogenes]

Super forms are the extra. You don't need extra extra. If you're going to start arguing for extra extra, why not extra extra extra? Add an Ultra form too if you think anything "optional" is automatically justified. Add a dozen increasingly stronger transformations for the truly hardcore to grind for.

It's not like I'm against optional or bonus content. But Hyper forms are such a sloppy sort of addition. It's narrative clutter and redundant mechanics. You want more stuff to do with the game, ask for something better than this.

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Though you do strike me as more of a casual player than one dedicated to drawn out experiences

Nope.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Super forms are the extra. You don't need extra extra. If you're going to start arguing for extra extra, why not extra extra extra? Add an Ultra form too if you think anything "optional" is automatically justified. Add a dozen increasingly stronger transformations for the truly hardcore to grind for.

It's not like I'm against optional or bonus content. But Hyper forms are such a sloppy sort of addition. It's narrative clutter and redundant mechanics. You want more stuff to do with the game, ask for something better than this.

Nope.

The idea is to make the extra content simplistic, not overly extravagant.

Again, the thought was to cater to Hyper fans in a way that would be natural, fun on the side, nothing crazy or out of the norm.

And if you're not, then that's fine, but going by your general conversations you do seem to have a preference for simplistic, casual fun over anything else in Sonic.

Perhaps not other franchises, but with Sonic, you do strike me as "less is more" by and large.

Not a bad mindset, but it does tend to be your mindset.

Things being "optional" does not justify any and everything, but something that has been done already and doesn't do anything to be a detriment to the game/experience as a whole is harmless and just added incentive to play/enjoy the whole experience.

You don't like Hyper, you don't want Hyper, it's not a topic you like bringing up/discussing, that is your reasoning and that's fine. I just gave it a shot at being the middle man and catering to both your side and the "For It" side of the fence.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And if you're not, then that's fine, but going by your general conversations you do seem to have a preference for simplistic, casual fun over anything else in Sonic.

No, what I have a preference for is well designed games. Part of that is elegant, efficient design. Hyper forms are clutter. They're junk food, and not even good junk food.

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Things being "optional" does not justify any and everything, but something that has been done already and doesn't do anything to be a detriment to the game/experience as a whole is harmless and just added incentive to play/enjoy the whole experience.

So you know I have said repeatedly that I think it does harm the game, right? Because I'm not seeing any counterarguments, nor any arguments justifying it beyond "I want it!"

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

No, what I have a preference for is well designed games. Part of that is elegant, efficient design. Hyper forms are clutter. They're junk food, and not even good junk food.

So you know I have said repeatedly that I think it does harm the game, right? Because I'm not seeing any counterarguments, nor any arguments justifying it beyond "I want it!"

It's not a matter of "I want it" but rather a matter of making it a concept that suits what both sides of the fence want, a means of giving to those for something while also letting those against it know it's not something that's going to distract from the core experience itself.

As far as me personally, I'm fine with Super Sonic as Hyper was the precursor to the homing attack and...

Eh...

After it ruined stage layout and/or enemy placement in recent years, THAT'S something that does bother me.

The subject of Super Emeralds and Hyper Forms are take it or leave it. With or without I'm fine, the only point was to support those who have a demand for it and think of a way that would appeal to those not in favor like yourself.