Anyone else miss "3D"?

[knuckles20]

I have two major beefs with modern Sonic games: One being Sonic only playable character (a subject I'm not alone on) and the issue with 3D games.

If you like Colors or Generations that's fine but it's hard for me to take "best 3D Sonic games" title seriously because at least 50% of those games are in 2D.

Like why calls these games 3D if you're not gonna commit to the 3rd dimension? 

Either work on a fully 3D game or just call them what they truly are: 2.5D games. 

 

[Osmium]

The boost formula can't sustain a whole game so they have to resort to 2D sections for filler. 

[Multikaris]

4 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

The boost formula can't sustain a whole game so they have to resort to 2D sections for filler. 

Then why did they even include 2D in their non-boost game?

[Osmium]

1 minute ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Then why did they even include 2D in their non-boost game?

Most likely for variety. Lost World does a plethora of different things. 

[Multikaris]

6 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Most likely for variety. Lost World does a plethora of different things. 

I agree that their variety held them back and made them use 2D instead of I don't know, ALTERNATE CHARACTERS.

[StaticMania]

2D sections wouldn't bother people as much if there wasn't an entire game-play style devoted to 2D platforming.

 

Lots of 3D platformers have 2D sections, it's just natural...

[Azure P]

I do miss pure 3D games. Say what you will, even the acclaimed worst game of the series Sonic '06 didn't resort to this 2D gimmick.

 

This among many, many, many other reasons is why Sonic Unleashed is my most hated Sonic game (Yes, I liked Sonic '06 more than this game) and killed my interest in the series for the longest time.

[Blacklightning]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Lots of 3D platformers have 2D sections, it's just natural...

Just out of curiousity, how many can you think of where it takes up a sizeable chunk of the gameplay? Off the top of my head I can't think of any platformers that force it in to quite the degree Sonic does - whereas most other games treat it as a diversion, Sonic uses it as a crutch.

[JezMM]

Totally preaching to the choir here.  I felt Unleashed handled the balance just fine, but Colours is 80% 2D and Generations and Forces WOULD be fine if it weren't for Classic and Avatar being entirely/partially 2D as well.

 

I have respect for the fact that in a platformer, you want to be coming up with interesting hazards and obstacles for the player to overcome.  There are some obstacles and gimmicks that just would be hard to work in 3D, where the player can approach them from any angle or just "jump around them" etc.  I'd be fine with 2D staying in modern Sonic platformers for the reason of giving us the full variety of terrain, gimmicks and obstacles the dev team can come up with for each game, but right now there's just way way too much.  And sadly in the tiny portion of gameplay we've seen from Forces so far, either City Heights is a very simplistic tutorial stage, or we're getting another game where all the platforming meat is in the 2D sections and the 3D is just there to give a simplistic thrill ride from one 2D section to the next, as in Colours.

 

 

But yeah, I like how Unleashed did it, the main stages had just the right ratio, and the side stages had a nice mix of fully 3D and fully 2D.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Just out of curiousity, how many can you think of where it takes up a sizeable chunk of the gameplay? Off the top of my head I can't think of any platformers that force it in to quite the degree Sonic does - whereas most other games treat it as a diversion, Sonic uses it as a crutch.

I mean...Crash Bandicoot is the only example I can think of. I like it.

No other game of 3D-ness seem to have that problem.

[Tornado]

6 hours ago, StaticMania said:

2D sections wouldn't bother people as much if there wasn't an entire game-play style devoted to 2D platforming.

Or if the actual 3D sections weren't so frequently so linear that they might as well not have bothered.

[Endy]

2D sections are a pretty good idea, they're pretty fun when designed well and can lead to a good bit of traditional platforming the boost in a 3d space can't do, and it's a great way to change up the pace of the gameplay without resorting to a completely different gameplay. The problem is they resort to alternative gameplay styles anyway that just make them redundant. Another problem is that the the way 3d Sonic games are constructed is that they rely almost entirely on automation and scripting, and unfortunately the 2D sections are full of this as well. The platforming itself also tends to be pretty average, I'm not quite sure if that's a problem with the boost, 3d Sonic in general or if Sonic Team isn't inventive enough, but 2d sections are still a great but they are completely mishandled. So... the Sonic Team usual, basically.

[Indigo Rush]

2 hours ago, Tornado said:

Or if the actual 3D sections weren't so frequently so linear that they might as well not have bothered.

This. The "3D" that people praise the Boost formula for is little more than behind-the-back side-stepping and drifting; and when they actually get into the real open 3D exploring and platforming, Sonic is an absolute nightmare to handle, and you end up relying on enemy targets to dash towards to navigate the 3D space. It's a disaster. Sonic's 360 degree movement is just not up to snuff for a true platformer, which stinks because they used to be.

Whether or not there's merit to the boost, it's reliance on 2D is to prevent it from becoming a glorified Sonic Dash experience. 

[knuckles20]

On 7/24/2017 at 10:43 PM, ShroomZed said:

The boost formula can't sustain a whole game so they have to resort to 2D sections for filler. 

Which begs the question: Why call them 3D games if they have to resort to 2D? 

[StaticMania]

It used to be because even if there were 2D sections, the games would still be primarily in the 3rd Dimensions.

[Phos]

There is only one 3D Sonic level: The third section of Speed Highway, sometimes referred to by the name of it's BGM, "At Dawn".  All the others are 2D levels with the perspective changed.  

[Endy]

7 minutes ago, Phos said:

There is only one 3D Sonic level: The third section of Speed Highway, sometimes referred to by the name of it's BGM, "At Dawn".  All the others are 2D levels with the perspective changed.  

I don't understand this logic and why it's so popular. Technically you could squish down literally any 3d game and just call it a "2d game with the perspective changed", but even Sonic's 3d games present their own set of challenges that would not be possible in a 2d plane, and there are so many mechanics and level design that wouldn't be possible. Linear level design does not mean it may as well just be 2d, that's absurd.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

I would like for a full 3D game to be made as well. The problem is that the full 3D games thus far are so littered with problems that Sonic Team went in this direction looking for a solution. I agree that mostly 2D is not satisfying when there are already much better 2D experiences for Sonic.

Nothing they have tried so far in the 3D has really worked. That really stinks for me because I can't stop dreaming about the day I finally get to play an excellent 3D Sonic game that can compete with the best platformers out there in quality.

[Phos]

9 minutes ago, Paaaaaaaa said:

I don't understand this logic and why it's so popular. Technically you could squish down literally any 3d game and just call it a "2d game with the perspective changed", but even Sonic's 3d games present their own set of challenges that would not be possible in a 2d plane, and there are so many mechanics and level design that wouldn't be possible. Linear level design does not mean it may as well just be 2d, that's absurd.

Just putting a fork in a road doesn't mean you can't do it in 2D.  The genesis games have two layers that Sonic can be in, otherwise loops wouldn't work.  They already have a pseudo 3rd dimension, but people don't call them 3D games for that.

[Milo]

12 hours ago, Tornado said:

Or if the actual 3D sections weren't so frequently so linear that they might as well not have bothered.

 

9 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

This. The "3D" that people praise the Boost formula for is little more than behind-the-back side-stepping and drifting; and when they actually get into the real open 3D exploring and platforming, Sonic is an absolute nightmare to handle, and you end up relying on enemy targets to dash towards to navigate the 3D space. It's a disaster. Sonic's 360 degree movement is just not up to snuff for a true platformer, which stinks because they used to be.

Whether or not there's merit to the boost, it's reliance on 2D is to prevent it from becoming a glorified Sonic Dash experience. 

All the more reason why I keep advocating the notion that Boost gameplay should be spun off into a flagship racing series; while 3D Sonic platformers should return to a more traditional playstyle (whether it be Adventure, Lost World, or something new).

3D platforming is not the priority of the Boost playstyle and it painfully shows everytime the game shifts away from high-speed thrills for platforming sections. Aside from the controls being unsuited for slower movement, the level design never gets any more complex than basic precision-platform hopping affairs; which only serve to break up the flow of constantly fast-paced gameplay (this is also why I considered Unleashed to have the stronger level design, as later Boost games have a higher focus on platforming and 2D elements). Adding to this are a large absence of zone/level-specific gimmicks and enemies only existing for boost fodder, resulting in all of the levels structurally blending together and having minimal variety outside zone themes and decorations. For what's supposed to be a 3D platformer, all of this makes for exceptionally dull and repetitive game design for that genre.

If your 3D gameplay for your 3D platformer is too limited in scope and too costly in resources to create fully 3D levels without constant filler/crutches, then maybe the 3D platforming genre isn't exactly fit for your 3D gameplay in the first place.

[Phos]

2 hours ago, Yeow said:

 

All the more reason why I keep advocating the notion that Boost gameplay should be spun off into a flagship racing series; while 3D Sonic platformers should return to a more traditional playstyle (whether it be Adventure, Lost World, or something new).

3D platforming is not the priority of the Boost playstyle and it painfully shows everytime the game shifts away from high-speed thrills for platforming sections. Aside from the controls being unsuited for slower movement, the level design never gets any more complex than basic precision-platform hopping affairs; which only serve to break up the flow of constantly fast-paced gameplay (this is also why I considered Unleashed to have the stronger level design, as later Boost games have a higher focus on platforming and 2D elements). Adding to this are a large absence of zone/level-specific gimmicks and enemies only existing for boost fodder, resulting in all of the levels structurally blending together and having minimal variety outside zone themes and decorations. For what's supposed to be a 3D platformer, all of this makes for exceptionally dull and repetitive game design for that genre.

If your 3D gameplay for your 3D platformer is too limited in scope and too costly in resources to create fully 3D levels without constant filler/crutches, then maybe the 3D platforming genre isn't exactly fit for your 3D gameplay in the first place.

Oh yeah the platforming post Unleashed (which didn't really have any to speak of) might as well have been designed for a megaman level.  

But to get back to your first point, Unleashed for a long time has reminded me of a really awkward version of Hydro Thunder.  

[Detective Kaito]

Just give me a Sonic game with Sonic Adventure 1's gameplay and level design (Sonic's story). It's so simple but SEGA refuses to do it. If they fix the spam dash, the glitches and polish it, it would legit be a great 3D Sonic game.

[SBR2]

I think I might be the only person who has never been bothered by this.

[Azure P]

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

Just give me a Sonic game with Sonic Adventure 1's gameplay and level design (Sonic's story). It's so simple but SEGA refuses to do it. If they fix the spam dash, the glitches and polish it, it would legit be a great 3D Sonic game.

Just please don't include Amy or Big as a game play style. I replayed Sonic Adventure recently and it reminded me why I liked Sonic Adventure 2 a whole lot more.

[StaticMania]

There's nothing wrong with having Amy playable...seriously. Increase her accel and turning ability then there's literally no problem.