Telltale Batman Season 2: The Enemy Within

[Vec]

Well...I have to say I failed to prevent him from becoming a villain...but somehow I don't regret it

[Ryannumber1gamer]

It seems for once that Telltale is actually going to follow through on their promise of "your choices impact...something". According to an article posted on the PlayStation Blog, there will be two finales for the game and depending on your choices with Joker (If you chose to be his friend or pushed him away) - the finale will reflect his role as a vigilante like Batman, or newly crowned Clown Prince of Crime. 

Episode 5 will also be 3 and a half hours long.

[Tara]

Season finale trailers

Vigilante Joker

Villain Joker

 

Dear god I hope that they don't just devolve Joker into "serial killer clown/totally not Jigsaw" like the recent comics have been doing.  John Doe has been the most interesting character for the whole season, so if it builds up to that, I'm going to be VERY disappointed.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I'm not really sure how I feel about Catwoman randomly turning against Batman again.

[Tara]

50 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm not really sure how I feel about Catwoman randomly turning against Batman again.

but their unsteady relationship it's so interesting how they devolve into the same petty quarrel and shouting matches every two minutes!!!!!!!!!

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Tara said:

but their unsteady relationship it's so interesting how they devolve into the same petty quarrel and shouting matches every two minutes!!!!!!!!!

True, true. I sure do love how the comic romance of cat and mouse between the two - the complexities of always being on opposing morals despite wishing to do the same thing, and the fact that Bruce and Selina actually care enough about each other to deal with petty bullshit in the comics has been devalued and destroyed down to just "hey, i love you, oh i love you too, let's be a superhero couple. 2 minutes later - SORRY BATS YOURE JUST A JOB JUST TROLLIN' YA THANKS FOR GIVING YOUR LIFE UP TO SAVE ME BYEEEEEEEE".

I don't particularly enjoy Telltale's take on the relationship

[Count Mario]

On March 22, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm not really sure how I feel about Catwoman randomly turning against Batman again.

It's pretty clear that her, Bane, and Harley are a new Suicide Squad being forced to follow Amanda Waller's orders because of explosive necklaces. Not that putting Catwoman into yet another circumstance where her agency is inhibited by needing you to save her by putting your life in jeopardy is still great.

And personally, I never really like comic book femme fatale thief romances like the ones Batman and Spider-Man have. It always gets old and I think the only time I liked it was in the Spider-Man 2 video game because it only lasted the length of a single game and Black Cat came to a friendly understanding about the type of double-life Peter needs to be responsible. Rather than milking the dead horse that is "will they/won't they, arrest them/join them" for years on top of years. Add in how the protagonist's conflict is based on superficial temptations like flirty sex appeal antics, "hey we have this costumed lifestyle in common so I don't have to feel lonely", and owing each other favors if they save the other person, and I don't really care that much since it feels more like an over dramatic shallow love-at-first-sight high school romance than something actually "real", if that makes sense. 

I feel like that type of romance only works best for a year one amateur story when the hero is still settling into figuring out what type of morals and lifestyle they should embody, especially since you can only give someone so many second chances until it is obvious that they will never change. Which then makes the hero look like a hypocrite for giving this one criminal constant exceptions from being caught by the law because, well, they're hot and do good things sometimes despite still stealing, hurting people to a minor degree, and even helping other more dangerous criminals otherwise.

This type of dynamic only stays interesting if actually develops towards both parties trying to finally have a serious relationship, but that hardly happens. And when it does, like Batman and Catwoman's current betrothal in the comics and Spider-Man/Black Cat in the 80's, it will inevitably get undercut by the story reverting back to the status quo somehow after a few years at most.

So yeah, Tara's last comment sums up my feelings succinctly.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Count Mario said:

It's pretty clear that her, Bane, and Harley are a new Suicide Squad being forced to follow Amanda Waller's orders because of explosive necklaces. Not that putting Catwoman into yet another circumstance where her agency is inhibited by needing you to save her by putting your life in jeopardy is still great.

And personally, I never really like comic book femme fatale thief romances like the ones Batman and Spider-Man have. It always gets old and I think the only time I liked it was in the Spider-Man 2 video game because it only lasted the length of a single game and Black Cat came to a friendly understanding about the type of double-life Peter needs to be responsible. Rather than milking the dead horse that is "will they/won't they, arrest them/join them" for years on top of years. Add in how the protagonist's conflict is based on superficial temptations like flirty sex appeal antics, "hey we have this costumed lifestyle in common so I don't have to feel lonely", and owing each other favors if they save the other person, and I don't really care that much since it feels more like an over dramatic shallow love-at-first-sight high school romance than something actually "real", if that makes sense. 

I feel like that type of romance only works best for a year one amateur story when the hero is still settling into figuring out what type of morals and lifestyle they should embody, especially since you can only give someone so many second chances until it is obvious that they will never change. Which then makes the hero look like a hypocrite for giving this one criminal constant exceptions from being caught by the law because, well, they're hot and do good things sometimes despite still stealing, hurting people to a minor degree, and even helping other more dangerous criminals otherwise.

This type of dynamic only stays interesting if actually develops towards both parties trying to finally have a serious relationship, but that hardly happens. And when it does, like Batman and Catwoman's current betrothal in the comics and Spider-Man/Black Cat in the 80's, it will inevitably get undercut by the story reverting back to the status quo somehow after a few years at most.

So yeah, Tara's last comment sums up my feelings succinctly.

I mean there is some aspects in that in which I would agree with you. I'm not particularly a fan of these types of romances, but there was always enough in Batman and Catwoman's characterization that kept me hooked. In Batman's rouges gallery, Catwoman was always one of the characters who was meant to relate, but bounce off Batman's personality in many ways. There's plenty "will they/won't theys" but there's also plenty of moments where both characters are given trusted information, asked to change, or whatever that showed they were trying. 

There's a lot of times where it's the characters' flaws, their actual relatable flaws that cause a split. Hush for example had Batman and Catwoman finally agreeing to be together, Catwoman actively changing her morals to be with Batman, the reason why they ended up not together by the end was because of Batman's own distrust, because he wasn't sure if them being together was something they did together, or yet another planned moment by Hush.

There's fallout behind his decision, and Catwoman still has to hold onto his identity and live with the fact that Batman's own flaws is the reason they can't be together. I find that stuff interesting.

Compare that to say New 52 where we had Batman and Catwoman having random sex on rooftops, or compare it to The Batman's version of Catwoman who pretty much was just a flirty thief with nothing interesting other than that.

I can't speak for much about Black Cat because while I am a Spidey fan, I haven't read many of the stories involving her. From what I've seen of her, the bigger problem is that Black Cat doesn't really have a conflict, per say. With Batman and Catwoman, either of them could compromise their morals to be with the other. Batman's leaned that way before and has had to pull himself back from the brink and Catwoman's done it a lot of times.

But Black Cat I've never actually seen her wishing to give up a life of crime to be with Peter. She's usually used in a way to have Peter reevaluate his own morals and responsibilities, if he wants to use his powers selfishly, or use them to help others, Spider-Man 2's game tie-in being a good example as you said. It also doesn't help that in every other non-comic product, she's always used to represent evil, as opposed to an anti-hero. Spectacular Spidey has her helping Symbiote Spider-Man a few times, but it's not really to a huge degree to be fair. Web of Shadows is absolutely worse, having her act as someone who constantly drives Spider-Man to the dark side and the dark ending having Spider-Man say screw MJ and hook up with Black Cat, who's more than willing to go and destroy more things around the city etc.

I guess that's a reason I do dislike Catwoman in this series. There's no evolution. Anytime they try to do something nice with Selena, the rug is usually pulled from our feet and it's revealed she never changed and was a bigger dick than the majority of the characters in the story.

[Count Mario]

6 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I mean there is some aspects in that in which I would agree with you. I'm not particularly a fan of these types of romances, but there was always enough in Batman and Catwoman's characterization that kept me hooked.

That example you pointed out with Hush is VERY interesting. It is so easy to have the morally ambiguous character's flaws threaten the relationship rather than the protagonist's own.  And I will always appreciate stories where Batman isn't perfect lol.

I didn't mean to portray Batman and Catwoman's relationship over the decades as NEVER being compelling, there had to be some moments where it was. I was more so talking about the common type of interaction we see from most writers, especially in the New 52 and most adaptations. Sort of like how you described Black Cat lol. I am a Batman fan, but haven't read too many of his comic book stories involving Catwoman. I have much more intimate experience with reading Spider-Man.

With Telltale specifically, I was sort of fine with Bruce and Selina's interactions in season one. Aside from how they tried to push a dumb love triangle conflict with Harvey (what is it with Telltale having face-heel turns because of love triangle drama?). Although I must say that the season 1 chapter 2's ultimatum between saving Harvey or Selina at the mayoral debate is probably my favorite sequence in this whole series so far, the build-up, scenario, and tense atmosphere was perfect. But their relationship getting rehashed this season with even less interesting relevant conflict because... I don't know, John's risk of going bad only because he's a codependent lover boy and Harley spontaneously hitting on you in front of John for no reason apparently doesn't bring enough romantic tension. And it makes the finality of Bruce and Selina's separation near the end of season 1 look redundant.

Black Cat in the comics has sometimes had Catwoman's conflict, but most adaptations prefer her only caring about adrenaline highs from parkour antics and embody selfish temptations just like you described. There was a point in 80's where she accepted and tried to work with Peter having a double life and focused on trying to do heroics only. Although now she's a crime boss because Superior Spider-Man (Doc Ock was in Peter Parker's body for a year or two) clocked her right in the face when he caught her stealing and left her to get arrested, which made her crave revenge and villainy on the drop of a dime. Which... was a petty development for her. Since he was doing his job as a superhero and Felicia expected complicity because she's a love interest. Although I freaking cheered when Ock actually acted like a hero instead of playing up the repetitive "will they, won't they" BS like Peter does.

All in all, I completely agree with you about the problem with Catwoman being her lack of evolution. I could complain about all of the villains this season. Especially Riddler, they completely wasted his potential. He deserved a revamp like Two-Face becoming mayor or Penguin taking control of Wayne Industries instead of being Jigsaw with riddles who gets killed off to hype other villains. All of the John bonding and Joker molding is still the best part though.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

12 minutes ago, Count Mario said:

That example you pointed out with Hush is VERY interesting. It is so easy to have the morally ambiguous character's flaws threaten the relationship rather than the protagonist's own.  And I will always appreciate stories where Batman isn't perfect lol.

I didn't mean to portray Batman and Catwoman's relationship over the decades as NEVER being compelling, there had to be some moments where it was. I was more so talking about the common type of interaction we see from most writers, especially in the New 52 and most adaptations. Sort of like how you described Catwoman lol. I am a Batman fan, but haven't read too many of his comic book stories involving Catwoman. I have much more intimate experience with reading Spider-Man.

With Telltale specifically, I was sort of fine with Bruce and Selina's interactions in season one. Aside from how they tried to push a dumb love triangle conflict with Harvey (what is it with Telltale having face-heel turns because of love triangle drama?). Although I must say that the season 1 chapter 2's ultimatum between saving Harvey or Selina at the mayoral debate is probably my favorite sequence in this whole series so far, the build-up, scenario, and tense atmosphere was perfect. But their relationship getting rehashed this season with even less interesting relevant conflict because... I don't know, John's risk of going bad only because he's a codependent lover boy and Harley spontaneously hitting on you in front of John for no reason apparently doesn't bring enough romantic tension. And it makes the finality of Bruce and Selina's separation near the end of chapter 1 look redundant.

Black Cat in the comics has sometimes had Catwoman's conflict, but most adaptations prefer her only caring about adrenaline highs from parkour antics and embody selfish temptations just like you described. There was a point in 80's where she accepted and tried to work with Peter having a double life and focused on trying to do heroics only. Although now she's a crime boss because Superior Spider-Man (Doc Ock was in Peter Parker's body for a year or two) clocked her right in the face when he caught her stealing and left her to get arrested, which made her crave revenge and villainy on the drop of a dime. Which... was a petty development for her. Since he was doing his job as a superhero and Felicia expected complicity because she's a love interest. Although I freaking cheered when Ock actually acted like a hero instead of playing up the repetitive "will they, won't they" BS like Peter does.

All in all, I completely agree with you about the problem with Catwoman being her lack of evolution. I could complain about all of the villains this season. Especially Riddler, they completely wasted his potential. He deserved a revamp like Two-Face becoming mayor or Penguin taking control of Wayne Industries instead of being Jigsaw with riddles who gets killed off to hype other villains. All of the John bonding and Joker molding is still the best part though.

Speaking of Riddler, I have a theory they're going to pop out the captain obvious reveal and have Joker reveal he killed Riddler. I could see it in the Vigilante portion where Batman gets angry with Joker, Joker reveals everything he did was to help and be like Batman - including killing the Riddler because "he deserved justice". It'd be a major turning point of the two.

For villain, it's more tricky, but I could see Joker saying something like "I guess you could say the moment I was born Batsy was when I blew Riddler's brains aaaall over that boat!". 

Either that or they'll ignore the plot point entirely because it was just used - as you said to hype up the pact. 

[Count Mario]

5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Speaking of Riddler, I have a theory they're going to pop out the captain obvious reveal and have Joker reveal he killed Riddler. I could see it in the Vigilante portion where Batman gets angry with Joker, Joker reveals everything he did was to help and be like Batman - including killing the Riddler because "he deserved justice". It'd be a major turning point of the two.

For villain, it's more tricky, but I could see Joker saying something like "I guess you could say the moment I was born Batsy was when I blew Riddler's brains aaaall over that boat!". 

Either that or they'll ignore the plot point entirely because it was just used - as you said to hype up the pact. 

I forgot that mystery was even a thing lol. I remember how Selina tries to claim that he seemed like a nice person before despite us having no indication of that whatsoever.

I can see both of those scenarios happening though, good job. Although I can't really get into the dramatic reveal of John killing Riddler, aside from never seeing them interact and Riddler barely being focused on, when we know it stems from something as trivial as Nygma "rudely" cutting off John's jokes.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah, it's one of the many reasons why I'd say Season 2 is really not very good compared to Season 1. A lot of the details that's meant to give complexities to the characters falls into "Show, don't tell". 

We're told Riddler is a good person at some point, but we never see that in the lunatic psychopath ways he acted. 

We're told that Harley is meant to have a relatable and sympathetic side because of her father, yet she just snaps when he's mentioned and she turns on Bruce with little to no evidence.

We're told that Bane holds high respect for his men, yet he tortures them, and on top of that, wants to destroy Bruce for no real reason.

John and Mr. Freeze is pretty much the only characters to have their development or sympathetic points shown at all.

[Count Mario]

I can't even get into Freeze's conflict because he doesn't get that much individual focus besides one conversation where you manipulate his obsession to get on his good side and having mercy because he needs low temperatures. I only feel bad for him because of my nostalgia for Heart of Ice. So rather than seeming sympathetic, he looks more like crazy Dr. Frankenstein iceman with necrophilia. I only hope that he comes back in Episode 5 so that your actions mean something.

Harley's practically bipolar. The most I can say is that at least getting on her good side does not seem too easy...?

This series went the manly steroid junkie brute route for Bane, the mistake that so many stories make instead of tactical mastermind with flexible prideful morals route. I think the only scene he impressed me a little bit is when he confronts you out of nowhere at the spa. And I think that's only because the situation reminded me of this scene from Dexter that always makes me crack up:

Spoiler

 

They should have held back on the urge to throw in so many villains without proper direction. I wonder where the story will go next season though. I hope they tackle Ra's and Scarecrow. I have a weird idea that might work if they fuse some comic book concepts and be as radical as they were with Dent and Cobblepot.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just finished Episode 5 and it's...uh. It's a mixed bag.

Joker: Vigilante

Spoiler

My biggest issue with this episode in all honesty is the choices. They hype up the fact that there's two different finales and it still falls directly back onto it's face with the same artificial bullshit that Telltale always ends up doing. There's small things I can assume will be changed if you go with villain Joker. I'm sure the first chapter is likely Batman and Bane fighting Joker as opposed to Joker/Batman fighting Bane. The chapter where Batman patches himself up after the chapter 1 fight likely wouldn't have Joker...but that's about it.

No matter your choices, Joker will still go insane, get pissed off and turn against you. Doing the vigilante path - he won't agree with Batman's code and says true justice is murdering evildoers while the other characters try to pin the blame directly onto Batman for Joker's creation. Which doesn't work if you legitimately treated John as a friend. It assumes every single action taken as Bruce is a front to manipulate Joker. For me personally, literally the only thing I did which can be considered as such was when I didn't trust him in Episode 1 and he found out later. Literally everything else, I did have Batman defend him at several points and help with Harley and such.

In the end, Joker ends up in Arkham, Bruce (or if you went the villain route - possibly Harley (I'm not sure, making a guess). That's the cliffhanger.

In terms of other choices. I really hated this episode a lot with a good few of them, because a lot of them try to push the absolute assumption that Batman acted like an irrational nutcase through the entire story and at the very end, tries to pin a really dickish claim that he's the exact same as his father. The final choice is a pretty terrible sadistic retread of Season 1's choice - where you choose to either give your identity to Lady Arkham to save Alfred, or do nothing.

Here, Alfred's entire sickness - shaking, fainting, etc is explained away with Alfred claiming he "felt helpless" and he plans to leave Bruce completely. None of your choices before this will impact things. He won't take into account the numerous things Batman has done to help the city, he doesn't care that if Batman hadn't been there, The Pact or The Agency would've unleashed a deadly virus onto the city and possibly other places, he doesn't care about anything you've done unless it makes Bruce look terrible. He specifically mentions the fact that "Batman created Joker". He might have a point...if there was literally only two choices that impact this. The first being the Villain/Vigilante choice - which either way he'll blame you for "creating a greater evil than simple John Doe", and the second being the literal one line of advice you give Joker (I said use your grudges to motivate you to do good - someone it got corrupted and twisted into "Use your grudges to fuel anger and hatred"). 

The end result is either Alfred leaving or you give up being Batman. It's specifically "Quit Batman, or Quit Alfred".

And I get the idea here. I get that Alfred worries over Bruce's life. But then you also remember that Alfred is also in-canon a spy, he condoned Bruce's father's behavior (something brought up by Alfred in fact), he kept Bruce out of the know in several important pieces of info which Bruce had to forgive him for in Season 1. I know Alfred is afraid for Bruce. But Alfred also literally sees Bruce as his own child, and by my own choices - Bruce sees him as his father, having practically disowned Thomas Wayne. I don't know many versions of Alfred that would literally just fuck off despite knowing the full reasons for why Bruce has to do what he does and basically just leave him to die.

It's a shame, because Telltale's version of Bruce and Alfred's relationship is probably one of my favourites in the entire Batman mythos, but they throw Alfred so insanely out of character just to force in a final choice for the finale that is "difficult" despite how terrible it looks on Alfred's part. Instead of a father/son relationship which is what Alfred and Bruce had up to this point, Alfred acts like a girlfriend trying to get her boyfriend to change, complaining about how "Bruce can claim this and that, but I know you'll never change". 

Other than that, there's a few more ass-pulls that come out of nowhere and doesn't work as a proper "mystery conclusion". The major conflict of the episode is Joker believing Waller killed Riddler and pinned him for the murder. Joker and Waller were obviously the biggest suspects. In the end, there's an ass-pull to drag out more conflict and "surprise us" that it was Tiffiny, who somehow knew exactly where they all were, used a drone to kill Riddler, escaped before Batman could figure out who it is and leave absolutely no clues whatsoever other than motive - which both Joker and Waller had anyway. Another typical Telltale excuse to try "shock the player even if it doesn't make sense".

And the worst thing was, I still was decently enjoying the episode. Catwoman was actually shown pretty decently for once, there was a good satisfaction of turning the tables on Waller, a want to help Joker. But that final portion with Alfred and Tiffany all but ruined the episode right at the tail end for me.

 

[Tara]

Episode iinks

Vigilante Joker

 

Villain Joker

 

I'll give my full thoughts in a bit.  Being prepared to sit through TWO episodes, though... at least one of them had better be good lol.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I'll give credit where it's due - watched the intro to the villain Joker version and it's completely different to the Vigilante version. 

[TheOcelot]

I also played the Vigilante Joker version yesterday. It was decent and yet definitely a flawed episode, much like Ryan said. The ending felt underwhelming for both Joker and Batman.

I replayed Episode 4 today and set Joker on the path to becoming a Villain (when John offers to go and talk to Harley on the bridge after Bruce tries to talk to her, refuse to let him try). I'm more looking forward to playing this version. Can't help but feel that I'm going to prefer Villain Joker over the Vigilante version.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

38 minutes ago, TheOcelot said:

I also played the Vigilante Joker version yesterday. It was decent and yet definitely a flawed episode, much like Ryan said. The ending felt underwhelming for both Joker and Batman.

I replayed Episode 4 today and set Joker on the path to becoming a Villain (when John offers to go and talk to Harley on the bridge after Bruce tries to talk to her, refuse to let him try). I'm more looking forward to playing this version. Can't help but feel that I'm going to prefer Villain Joker over the Vigilante version.

Villain's story is absolutely more interesting and has a far better climax. That said, the actual ending is still the same crap - only the after-credits scene is different.

[TheOcelot]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Villain's story is absolutely more interesting and has a far better climax. That said, the actual ending is still the same crap - only the after-credits scene is different.

Agreed. Just finished Villain Joker and it was a lot more exciting. Tiffany, Jim Gordon, Selina Kyle and Joker have much more interesting-better written stories. Made me care for these characters a lot more than in the Vigilante version.

Spoiler

Selina and Tiffany's reveals when Bruce was locked-up in Joker's trials was unexpected! As was Jim's betrayal (although not has interesting). Batman reviving Joker was a nice touch! 

The wacky scene when they are sitting at the table (with Harley, Joker and Alfred) really suited John Doe/Joker's crazy personality.

I know it's disappointing that Joker ends up back in Arkham just like in the Vigilante version. At least he's now in his full Joker persona in Arkham.

The Villain story is the best episode of Season 2 for me. As a whole, I prefer Season 1. Although, I have enjoyed the build-up from John Doe to Joker. Don't know if I want a Season 3 though.

[Tara]

On 3/22/2018 at 2:09 PM, Tara said:

Dear god I hope that they don't just devolve Joker into "serial killer clown/totally not Jigsaw" like the recent comics have been doing.  John Doe has been the most interesting character for the whole season, so if it builds up to that, I'm going to be VERY disappointed.

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED.

More accurately, I'm really disappointed in the Villain Joker ending.  I'm not really going to go too much into it, because honestly I thought it was pretty boring.  It was all just the typical horror movie/SAW tropes that were repulsive, boring, lacking in character development, or even an iota of creativity.  Like, at times, they try to drop a hint of depth to it, but it's overshadowed by gratuitous violence and one-dimensional conflict.  One thing I will say is that I am a little bit annoyed by how modern Batman is always going on and on about how Batman creates his own enemies.  Sometimes this is handled fine, but for this story, the Villain Joker ending specifically, it's absolutely maddening.

Seeing Jim, Alfred, Tiffany, EVERYONE blame Batman for the existence of super criminals in Gotham is preposterous.  The very first episode of the season details how the Riddler was a horrible criminal on a grand scale that predated Batman.  Bane, Harley, etc. all existed before Batman according to this mythos.  Batman was created in response to the villains here.  It established that much.  They may have a point with John Doe as the Joker, because Bruce's tampering and manipulation may have very well led him to being who he is, but everyone else? Er... no.  Just no.  Like, Jim even talks about how before Batman showed up, all they had to worry about was gangsters when literally Arkham Asylum is a thing here.

Note that I'm referring specifically to the lore in this series, not the Batman universe as a whole.

And what's with these characters being like "the Riddler was actually a nice guy shame he's dead =("  Like, I was hoping eventually they'd show us this.  That we'd see a side of the Riddler that we missed out on in the first episode.  But nope.  We're just sort of supposed to take their word for it.  Catwoman even gets in a fight, screaming "The Riddler was my friend!"  Selina, your friend puts people in boxes and slices their fingers off.  I know she's a thief, but that's a pretty shady alliance.

Basically, the Villain Joker ending, in my opinion, was awful.  Generic, boring, and just... surprisingly uneventful given all the carnage going on.

Now the Vigilante Joker on the other hand.  I was actually quite surprised at how much I liked it.  All the characters were motivated by goals and ideologies, there was actual moments of introspection, there were some genuinely heartwarming and funny moments on top of some pretty sad moments.  The fight scenes were cool, the character interactions were charming, and while it was also very violent, the violence felt supported by the narrative, as opposed to the narrative being supported by the violence.  It didn't feel like it was added just for shock value.  That being said, it wasn't perfect, and there were some things that did bother me quite a bit.  Spoilers below.
 

Spoiler

 

The main problem I had with it, honestly, was that John Doe's motivations and struggles were extremely predictable.  Like, "Oh, you're a vigilante and you fight for justice but you won't kill?!?!?!  0/10 worst superhero so mad!!!"  Like, yes, we've heard this all before from Under the Red Hood and even the more traditional Joker of Arkham City lampshades the fact that Batman would spare the life of a killer even after being personally wronged by him on countless occasions.  It's an old, old, old, old, old conflict that I'm kind of sick of.

And also, Waller suddenly has a heart towards the end.  Like, "oh I know you think I'm bad but I really did do it because I thought it was right."  Like, excuse me, she kept the virus to herself and hired violent criminals as top-ranking authorities in her organization and had lots of people killed, she's... no.  You can't just flip that around and say "she's trying her best guys come on."  And Tiffany's face heel turn, in addition to the revelation that she killed the Riddler, came completely out of nowhere.  Like all that characterization from the previous episode just somehow disappeared.

And Alfred leaving.  It's easy to be mad at Alfred for this, and I totally get that.  Like, Alfred has always been a loyal, loving companion to Bruce.  So for him to just get up and leave like "actually Bruce fuck you!" is pretty... er.... out of character, yeah.  But I'm actually more upset at Bruce.  When Bruce sees that his crusade is having lasting psychological and physical effects on his closest companion, you would think he'd be... a little more understanding of his decision?  Instead, the two just bicker like a couple of children.  I... er, kind of hope they'll retcon this ending.  While I don't mind Bruce and Alfred's friendship coming into question or Alfred questioning rather or not he should stay, I feel like it was not handled well enough here and would need a lot more buildup and attention to truly feel natural as opposed to petty and forced.

 

On a lighter note, though, this game is absolutely stunning on the visual front.  Seriously, this game gives me Batman: The Animated Series vibes sometimes with its moody atmosphere and lighting, slow orchestral music.  And the camera work is phenomenal.  These compositions are absolutely beautiful.

And also Black Panther makes an appearance.

(It's joke.  Sorry!!)

 

And the voice work, especially on the Vigilante Joker ending is astonishingly good.  There's a huge range of deliveries from quiet to loud, to soft to forceful, and everything in between.  And the fact that Batman and the Joker of all people can just have a tender moment is actually... pretty great.  I don't think that's been done, or at the very least done well, since The Killing Joke.

The great voice acting is just one reason I really hate the voice modulator that Batman uses.  So many great lines ruined by a robotic sounding distortion.  Anthony Ingruber's Joker is really good in this episode, channeling a sort of mix between Mark Hamill and Jack Nicholson while also throwing a bit of Heath Ledger in for good measure.

So basically, even though there were some points that were really dumb about the Vigilante Joker ending, I actually quite enjoyed it.  It actually felt like I was watching a Batman story, which is more than I can say for a good majority of this season, unfortunately.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

While I don't subscribe to the theory that it's him in the post-credits scene if you go with Vigilante Joker - anyone else hoping the villain of a potential Season 3 is Hush? 

[Count Mario]

As somebody who played the Vigilante storyline first and watched the Villain storyline later And I must say... I am so overwhelmed by the dissonance in plot quality that I am going to replay the entire Telltale Batman series for reevaluation to end with the Villain scenario next time. The Villain storyline felt like a much tighter, properly paced, and thematically compelling narrative. The Vigilante storyline was decent and Joker's dialogue is freaking beautiful, but I don't have many other praises. Don't get me wrong, the Villain storyline is still far from perfect. But for all of this season's faults, I really liked what it was going for. If anything, most of its flaws stem from the baggage of having to wrap up poorly developed plotlines from the rest of the season, while everything new they did with Joker's transformation managed to engage me at least somewhat more than I expected.

So the Vigilante storyline:

Spoiler

Starts off with Joker showing up to help fight against the Agency and Bane. It's a funny dream come true seeing him fight side-by-side with Batman using his own Jokerangs and wind-up teeth grappling gun. Although I think this is the third Bane boss fight, so his presence is getting rather trite even if his Venom formula was improved to last longer. I will say that I like the touch of giving him a mask modeled after his Dark Knight Rises iteration, it makes me take him slightly more seriously considering how ridiculous he looks as a goatee luchador alcoholic.

And the dialogue Joker has with Alfred in the alley was such a goldmine. Especially when he asks if Bruce's parents haunt Wayne Manor. Learning a bit of backstory about Alfred was nice too.

But then Joker hands over the virus to Batman and he just... makes it inert by putting it in the Batmobile. I'm with Joker, that was a pretty anticlimactic conclusion to solving the main motivation of both the Pact and Waller for the entire season. So I guess the episode is going to focus on Joker's fate exclusively. That can still work by making the stakes more personal than external, I suppose. But I would have kept the virus around as a plot thread. Maybe tie down Batman and Joker's adventure to finding out how to alter or destroy it. It would be similar to the Fellowship in Lord of the Rings venturing to destroy the One Ring, except replace Sauron with Waller and Mordor with I guess ACE Chemicals having the necessary resources and deserted proximity for the job.

 

But Joker gets out of control in the very next sequence. The urge to kill and not want to let go of grudges was very predictable. He is at least insane, so the conflict feels slightly justified. I can still get into it if it is executed with enough captivating emotional storytelling, depth, and pacing. Joker's turn happens way too soon for the twist to feel properly tragic or suspenseful though. And the fact that he probably goes crazy whether or not you decide to hand him over to Waller for Catwoman dumb. I usually don't mind our choices not changing much of anything too much so long as the story is told well enough to maintain the illusion that our choices matter, but that sucks almost as badly as Harvey immediately going all police state in season one regardless of whether or not you saved him from becoming the Phantom of the Opera and didn't sleep with Catwoman.  

 

And did we really need a second fight with the entire Pact plus Catwoman? I'm getting sick of them showing up with their shallow characterizations and getting knocked down as frequently as bowling pins. The only pluses for this sequence was the cool close-up shot/shadowy lighting on Joker standing on the spotlight and Catwoman being a tolerable ally. But her role is still forgettably small.

 

Analyzing the crime scene with Tiffany and Gordon was boring. Gordon's apology, while heartfelt, comes out of nowhere without development and is all he contributes to the story. Harley shows up for another trite boss fight and gets another embarrassing defeat. There was no interesting point to this sequence other than finding Joker's location at ACE Chemicals. You want to know what could have been a lot better? If Joker replaced Tiffany. Think about it. We get to analyze crime scene evidence with Joker. Joker gets to interact with Gordon. Joker gets to fight against Harley and have his emotions tested. But hey, we at least got a voice disguise gag, right?

 

Despite the earlier shortcomings, I did kind of like the final confrontation at ACE Chemicals. Joker's fighting choreography with his Bat-rip off tools is awesome and his voice acting is  decently profound. When he says that he feels betrayed by the suggestion to undo all of his rehabilitation by going back to Arkham kills those agents to only laugh with blood on his face I felt sympathetic and a little unnerved. The music for the final portion was touching too.

 

Although I can't get into Joker's argument that Bruce is like Waller. That would only work if he maybe compared Waller using the Suicide Squad to Bruce using Joker to stop the Pact, but he only goes on a bland tirade about justice being subjectively defined without properly explaining why he is better. And the main crux of his anger is being accused of Riddler's murder by Bane, which is extremely petty for a motivation since that hasn't inhibited or hurt Joker in any way. It's only playground trash talk from a sore loser and irrelevant otherwise.

 

Then there's Tiffany... Honestly, I like the idea of her being Riddler's killer. It aligns with her internal conflict and is more surprising than John or Waller being the culprit. Your sidekick being a murderer, and also not a brat like Damian Wayne, can be a juicy conflict to explore. And it is SLIGHTLY foreshadowed in how she wants to use guns by partnering with Batman and her reaction to Gordon saying she seems to know a lot about guns at the crime scene. But that foreshadowing is way too minimal. The silhouette in the first episode looks nothing like her (it vaguely resembled John to me) and a rifle was used, while she claims to have used a drone in her confession. Why would she even know that Riddler was on the boat? And I know she's a tech wiz, but I don't think she would be knowledgable in making weapons (yet) in that short period of time between Lucius and Riddler's deaths. Not to mention, Riddler's irredeemability drains away from making this conflict tense enough. There is no way you can actually say she deserves to go to jail for killing such a narcissistic unrepentant scumbag who murdered her father. This is one of the times where Batman's no kill rule preaching ends up looking more obnoxious than insightful. If we actually saw more of the supposedly nice Riddler that Catwoman sees him as and maybe show that he was either mentally ill or could change for the better before being killed, then the ultimatum to turn in or mentor Tiffany would feel more eventful. Joker considering to kill Tiffany also feels empty since they have interacted so little, along with everything else.

And lastly, Alfred is a tool. I don't even have a problem with him leaving because the toll it has left on him is completely understandable. It is his reasons that I find unreasonable. His claim that Batman creates super villains has no grounds outside of Joker (and kind of Two-Face but not really). Everybody else already went bad before Batman existed, and Thomas Wayne's shady crimes ended up influencing Gotham's criminals more than Batman ever did. Alfred has a point about manipulating a mentally ill person like John to stop the Pact, but that is it. I am not even against the idea of Alfred getting fed up with Batman at some point. The Dark Knight Rises even did the same thing (although I didn't care for it in that film either). But if you want to make that work, Alfred needed a lot more focus this season. And he deserves it because I always thought his PTSD was more intriguing to explore than all of the undercover antics that felt less like a Batman game and more like The Departed: Supervillain Edition (that would make for an awesome game or comic book in its own right though).

Oh yeah, Avesta exists and you can ask her to work for you. Um... okay. I don't really care lol.

 

In the Villain storyline though:

Spoiler

Joker and Harley invade Wayne Industries, detonate the virus to kill everybody inside and in a bunch of other locations, and Joker declares that he will become Bruce's best enemy. Now THAT is how you make a game intro hook you in. The deaths might have been a bit gratuitous, but I don't mind that since it's the Joker and he still keeps all of his trademark ridiculous zaniness. I like how it connected to the last time Joker and Harley came to Wayne Enterprises too.

I also really like Joker's motivation in here. He feels betrayed by Bruce, so he wants to make all of his friends betray him to teach him how that feels. The way this builds up into the creepy funhouse trials is delicious. I dig how personal this goes, and I am a sucker for the trope where a hero's close ally becomes one of their greatest archenemies. Although it is VERY easy to write poorly. 

Yes, Joker is fairly SAW-esque in this chapter. But... I don't really mind because of that and his flair. I mean, c'mon. He locks Bruce and Selina together while narrating their challenge like a game show host and forces Telltale's Bat Family to play an elementary school card game equivalent of truth or dare in a fake fancy dinner. It's all so freaking stupid, but the lovable kind of stupid that makes me love Joker, and I will never forget Alfred's British accent uttering "Never have I ever". If none of his playfully morbid antics makes you smirk even once... I don't know what to tell you. They could have easily made Joker into being the typical creepy serial killer clown like in the New 52 for stories like Death of the Family and Endgame, but they retain his childish trolling sense of humor and occasional awkward endearing mistakes in balance with scary actions and efficient planning somewhat similarly to Heath Ledger's interpretation in The Dark Knight. The intro where Batman dissects a box out of Bullock worried me that Joker would end up being like the New 52 version, but that jack-in-the-box twist was Classic Joker. Riddler tried his own SAW shtick in episode 1, but that was much more distasteful because it lacked any real depth to it besides using random riddles to inflate his ego and get petty revenge. That got old very fast, while Joker wants to stylishly poison the relationship Bruce has with every one of his allies.

Gordon, Selina, Tiffany, and Alfred's roles/developments feel a lot more satisfying in the Villain storyline's scenario than in the Vigilante storyline. And Avesta is just kind of there like in the Vigilante storyline, but I don't care lol. But the main issue coming up here is that Joker's bond betrayal trials aren't as effective as they should be. Part of the issue is because he probably should have interacted more with Gordon, Selina, Tiffany, and Alfred in previous chapters. Sure, his main goal is to torture Bruce physically and psychologically, but Joker's interest in picking these four people and know what puppet strings to pull should feel more built-up. I can't remember John interacting Gordon even once, although he does show up on top of the GCPD building right after Gordon leaves to mock Batman and Gordon's relationship. He barely interacted with Catwoman despite checking out Riddler's hideout with her. And there is no way he can tell Tiffany is a murderer from that one short exchange in a closet room.

And the other half of the issue is that Joker could have gone deeper in staining these relationships for life. Gordon might have betrayed Batman, but it was to save the city by getting a map to all of the virus bomb spots. Selina isn't that morally ambiguous at this point unless you've been a total dick to her, although I appreciate her teamwork with Bruce this episode instead of being insufferably . Like I mentioned in my review of the Vigilante storyline, Riddler is too irredeemable for sympathy and Tiffany is almost entirely in the right for avenging her father. If the plotline surrounding Riddler's murder were written better, this would help support both Tiffany and Selina's relationships being tested against Bruce. And Joker could have dug a lot more into how Alfred hid the truth about Thomas and making Alfred blame Bruce for his PTSD, but that only works if Alfred got more focus like he deserved this season. All of this amounts a climax in the story that should really pay off on their internal conflicts and how you have treated these characters throughout the entire series. Gordon could have used a bit more screen time in showing how he overcame his injuries to stop the bombs, and both Selina and Tiffany's capture should have been shown or foreshadowed more.

I even didn't mind Joker and Harley's relationship this episode too, but a couple things bug me. It's awkward how Harley goes from being dominant all of the time to being head over heels for John and following his lead sometimes. Becoming infatuated with him on the bridge at the end of Episode 4 isn't enough for me. It's still around a 50/50 partnership, but this would flow better if there was a scene where Joker asserted his standing against Harley as an equal or the new boss.  Also, I couldn't really tell whether or not Harley knew that Batman is Bruce Wayne. It is never explicitly stated and it is a bit weird for Joker to not tell her that, although it could work if it's because he knows she will kill Bruce as soon as possible while he wants to play with him for as long as possible. That dinner party 2v2 matchup was sweet though.

The final battle could have had more stakes and more interesting attacks on Joker's part compared to the Vigilante storyline, but it's still alright. He should have at least thrown his playing cards. Joker's line about always being the knife in Bruce's side was awesome, it perfectly defines their relationship.

Alfred leaving Bruce makes more sense in this storyline since he has to feel responsible for Joker committing so much mass murder and seeing upfront the effect Batman has had on other people like Tiffany and Selina. His arguments are still BS, but his overall decision is more justifiable here.

All in all, the Vigilante storyline feels like an afterthought checking off boxes that were developed around planning the Villain storyline ahead of time. Which is a damn shame given how much I love Vigilante Joker's design and character interactions with Bruce, Alfred, and Waller. I love the themes for both Jokers and the final fight though, here they are if you want to listen:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85fVCGaNNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wtHxqqLTK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3vC8n6vN0Q

 

5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

While I don't subscribe to the theory that it's him in the post-credits scene if you go with Vigilante Joker - anyone else hoping the villain of a potential Season 3 is Hush? 

What a coincidence, I considered the same thing. But considering the difference with the Villain ending, nah. Both after-credits scenes were seriously meh, although the Vigilante one did tug my heartstrings a tiny bit.

As for Hush, well... They can't disappoint us more than Arkham Knight did. At least, that is what I'd like to say, but I just remembered that Mr. Freeze doesn't return in either episode 5 version. I don't know where he'd fit, but that still sucks. Bane doesn't show up for closure in the Villain storyline either, but... who cares lol.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

18 minutes ago, Count Mario said:

 

In the Villain storyline though:

  Hide contents

I even didn't mind Joker and Harley's relationship this episode too, but a couple things bug me. It's awkward how Harley goes from being dominant all of the time to being head over heels for John and following his lead sometimes. Becoming infatuated with him on the bridge at the end of Episode 4 isn't enough for me. It's still around a 50/50 partnership, but this would flow better if there was a scene where Joker asserted his standing against Harley as an equal or the new boss.  Also, I couldn't really tell whether or not Harley knew that Batman is Bruce Wayne. It is never explicitly stated and it is a bit weird for Joker to not tell her that, although it could work if it's because he knows she will kill Bruce as soon as possible while he wants to play with him for as long as possible. That dinner party 2v2 matchup was sweet though.

 

To be fair...

Spoiler

There's no specific moment where Harley is legitimately head over heels in love with Joker. There's several points where you can tell she's lying through her teeth and still stringing Joker along (Example - during the Do You Never game, Joker turns to Harley like a lost sad puppy when she keeps her finger down for all three portions until she clarifies smugly "not you puddin'", which we know from previous experience to be bullshit).

On top of that, Harley isn't joyfully giving up her moments to please Joker. It's clear that Joker has to specifically beg and convince her at points to do what he wants and he still is too afraid of her to own up directly to his actions - as shown by the fact he went behind her back with giving Gordon the locations of the bombs.

There's a few game over screens too where if Bruce does nothing, Joker will try to stop Harley from unleashing the virus, only for her to ignore him and do so anyway. Plus of course she completely loses it and tries to flat out kill Joker if you reveal what he did. 

 

[Count Mario]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

To be fair...

  Hide contents

There's no specific moment where Harley is legitimately head over heels in love with Joker. There's several points where you can tell she's lying through her teeth and still stringing Joker along (Example - during the Do You Never game, Joker turns to Harley like a lost sad puppy when she keeps her finger down for all three portions until she clarifies "no you puddin'", which we know from previous experience to be bullshit).

On top of that, Harley isn't joyfully giving up her moments to please Joker. It's clear that Joker has to specifically beg and convince her at points to to what he wants and he still is too afraid of her to own up directly to his actions - as shown by the fact he went behind her back with giving Gordon the locations of the bombs.

There's a few game over screens too where if Bruce does nothing, Joker will try to stop Harley from unleashing the virus, only for her to ignore him and do so anyway. Plus of course she completely uses it and tries to flat out kill Joker if you reveal what he did. 

 

Spoiler

True, very true. And Joker praises her for making the demands at Wayne Enterprises. But he's still in charge of so many ideas. You're ultimately right though.