Sonic Mania SPOILERS/Impressions Thread

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Marcello said:

How paranoid lol It's a neat connection to Forces that doesn't actually hurt Mania at all. I don't understand the anger.

I'm less angry than I am annoyed. The connection to Forces seems shoehorned and superfluous, and I personally dislike it.

Forces as a whole is doing a lot of things that I think are really dumb, from its new villain to its OC-generator, and I'm mildly irked by Mania having anything to do with it. I don't think it makes Mania any less of a good game, but I can't help but roll my eyes at this decision.

Just now, VEDJ-F said:

Man, the final boss is pathetic.

Disagree.

I thought both the bad-ending final boss, where Eggman transports you to the different Heavies during your battle, and the good-ending final boss, where you fight both Eggman and the Heavy boss, were really cool.

I'm really satisfied with them both, thematically and conceptually. I haven't played them yet, of course, but they look fun to fight.

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't think he minded. It's a job and he got paid to do it.

But I also don't think it was something he'd have done on his own either. If left to his own creative vision with no interference, I believe we'd have more (possibly all) original zones, and no connection to Forces whatsoever.

So it's not that I think he minded, but I do think it was definitely a compromise of the creative vision he had for the game.

Would he have done it himself? Probably not. Obviously if Forces didn't exist, or wasn't releasing so close, or wasn't even an anniversary title, it wouldn't be pushed, and he probably wouldn't come up with it on his own.

Does it "compromise his vision"? No it fucking doesn't. Oh my god, he had a framing device to go to old levels and also a very, at-the-end reference to another game! It must have been so hard for him.

Also people keep going on complaining about old stages, how they're "harming creative vision" and "making the game less original" when 1) the old stages have a fuck ton of new things to them, original or borrowed ideas on its own, so it obviously didn't restrain them too much, and 2) even the new stuff have several references to older games, even modern games. Or do you think Iizuka "forced" the Metal Sonic boss fight, with the Generations reference and 8-bit Silver Sonics? Well, no, I'm guessing you like that and Iizuka doesn't make games to please anyone?

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Also people keep going on complaining about old stages, how they're "harming creative vision" and "making the game less original" when 1) the old stages have a fuck ton of new things to them, original or borrowed ideas on its own, so it obviously didn't restrain them too much, and 2) even the new stuff have several references to older games, even modern games. Or do you think Iizuka "forced" the Metal Sonic boss fight, with the Generations reference and 8-bit Silver Sonics? Well, no, I'm guessing you like that and Iizuka doesn't make games to please anyone?

I still like the revamped old stages, but I would have preferred all new ones. Yes, the old stages have all-new layouts and I think they're great, but still would have preferred all new environments - like each installment of the Genesis games gave us.

Having a preference for option B doesn't mean I hate option A.

[NoKaine]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Either way, I don't think Izuka hates us or the series, but I do think he usually has awful ideas for it. His track record is pretty bad.

If you just thought he had bad ideas, you wouldn't be willing to blame perceived issues on him, especially ones you don't know are his fault or not, or make things up about what he'll do to a Mania sequel.

And yeah, someone who worked on Sonic this long would have a pretty spotty record, especially when you seem to put all flaws solely on him.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, NoKaine said:

If you just thought he had bad ideas, you wouldn't be willing to blame perceived issues on him, especially ones you don't know are his fault or not, or make things up about what he'll do to a Mania sequel.

I didn't do that.

I responded to someone else's speculation and said "Yeah, that'd be bad if it happened."

I don't actually think it will.

[NoKaine]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I still like the revamped old stages, but I would have preferred all new ones. Yes, the old stages have all-new layouts and I think they're great, but still would have preferred all new environments - like each installment of the Genesis games gave us.

Having a preference for option B doesn't mean I hate option A.

I don't care if you like or not but you seem to imply that somehow it "hurt" his vision, and thus a flaw, and only a "true sequel" would have nothing but new levels.

The only thing it seem to "hurt" is that he doesn't get to call Green Hill Schmeen Schmill Zone. I'm sure Ted Lopez was so distraught in having to make kickass remixes of already great songs.

[Jango]

What if the first delay (original release date was Spring) was actually to make this connection to Forces?

Conspiracy theories much? You guys know me.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I don't care if you like or not but you seem to imply that somehow it "hurt" his vision, and thus a flaw, and only a "true sequel" would have nothing but new levels.

What I said was that it compromised his vision for the game, not "hurt" it. And this is true.

The decision to include old zones came from Sega, not Taxman. He rolled with it and created some great original stages using the themes and environments of those old zones, but it clearly wasn't what he had planned from the beginning. He agreed to the stipulations, rolled with it, and still made something great within the boundaries Sega set for him.

And I would still like to see him make a sequel to this game will all new stages.

[NoKaine]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I didn't do that.

I responded to someone else's speculation and said "Yeah, that'd be bad if it happened."

I don't actually think it will.

You seemed to agree with it, though. As if you actually believe they could "drop the physics" (whatever the hell that means)--

Okay, hold on, "dropping the physics"? What the hell does that mean? Do people really think they "dropped the physics" for 4 and Generations?

It's rather clear that Sonic Team ultimately either doesn't know how to (the Hedgehog Engine and coding could impact the physics, and they seem to have lost the original source code) use the original physics, but there's absolutely nothing implying that they don't WANT to, or that they actively WANT their 2D Sonic games to not have the same physics as the Genesis games.

So saying that Iizuka would for some damn reason actively change the physics of the game, despite the fact that he likely hired Taxman BECAUSE he can make the original physics is really, really dumb and obviously rooted in a rather irrational hatred of Iizuka and Sonic Team, and not because you honestly see it coming.

[Jango]

Taxman indeed confirmed that his idea was a package featuring his remasters of 1, 2 and CD, plus a COUPLE of new zones as a bonus. 

[NoKaine]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

What I said was that it compromised his vision for the game, not "hurt" it.

You can't say it "compromised" anything unless you know what his vision was.

Nevermind that AGAIN the game isn't technically his to begin with, that he was hired to work on a game SEGA was making anyway.

SEGA mandated how many remixed levels there are, but you don't know exactly what he wanted to do. He could've put in old levels to begin with.

Same goes for the ending.

 

6 minutes ago, Jango said:

Taxman indeed confirmed that his idea was a package featuring his remasters of 1, 2 and CD, plus a COUPLE of new zones as a bonus. 

So, then, we got the better end of the deal, yeah?

[Dr. Mechano]

9 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You seemed to agree with it, though. As if you actually believe they could "drop the physics" (whatever the hell that means)--

 

9 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

seemed

Well, there's the problem: I think it's important to focus on what people actually say, not what they "seem" to say.

In the interest of clarification, I didn't - and don't - think that Izuka is trying to actively harm the series or that shoehorning the superfluous homing attack into Mania 2 is even a remote possibility.

I still do think Izuka has contributed mostly awful ideas to the franchise - with the best intentions, I'm sure - and has ultimately done more harm than good over his tenure at Sonic Team. So far, Forces looks bad to me; Infinite and the OCs are particular red marks against the game for me right now. So Mania's connection to it annoys - but doesn't anger - me, as I feel the game should have stood on its own without that connection. And even if that somehow was Taxman's idea, I'd still dislike it.

Once again, I still think Mania is a good game despite all this.

These are my actual positions, and I hope I've cleared them up enough to not be ascribed views I don't actually have.

[Blue Wisp]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

MAYBE SONIC GOT SUCKED INTO MANIA 2! 

Well...

He did.

And it's coming out this Holiday 2017 for Xbox One, Playstation 4, Nintendo Switch and PC.

[Jango]

2 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You can't say it "compromised" anything unless you know what his vision was.

Nevermind that AGAIN the game isn't technically his to begin with, that he was hired to work on a game SEGA was making anyway.

SEGA mandated how many remixed levels there are, but you don't know exactly what he wanted to do.

Same goes for the ending and Forces connection.

 

So, then, we got the better end of the deal, yeah?

And Taxman will likely never public admit if he was OK or not about making the connection. Re-imagined zones? Pretty sure he was okay with it tho'.

Yes, we got the best out of the deal, the returning levels are changed enough to justify their comeback. I just don't agree with the ammount of returning zones for a NEW game. If Taxman's original idea was made instead, it wouldn't be the case, since he pitched a "collection" (something a lot of people been asking too), the new zones would totally get people off guard. 

In any case, I just want more games done like this (sprite based, classic physics, animated intros and endings). Just take it easy with adding old zones to it :V One or two important zones are OK (like Angel Island or Hidden Palace). But I think we all had enough of Green Hill and Chemical Plant...

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Jango said:

In any case, I just want more games done like this (sprite based, classic physics, animated intros and endings). Just take it easy with adding old zones to it :V One or two important zones are OK (like Angel Island or Hidden Palace). But I think we all had enough of Green Hill and Chemical Plant...

Yes, agreed.

Part of the charm of the Genesis games was that each new game came with a full set of new stages. I want to see more classic games in the same vein, each with their own new batch of all-original levels.

[expansivelovestories]

9 hours ago, Celestia said:

I think it's really cute how they tied these games together. I guess it helps that I don't think Forces is gonna be the worst thing ever. That said, regardless of whether or not Forces does a good job following up on this, I can understand finding this ending underwhelming on it's own.

I'm not seeing the correlation here? What does ending have to do with that? If anything SEGA not considering those canon alone makes it unlikely we'll see Super Tails / Hyper Knuckles, but I wouldn't be surprised if they snuck 'em in there as secrets.

Speaking of which...I wonder if this game has debug mode and the like. Now that's something this game needs or it won't feel like a true successor to me >:U

The way I see it, we got a longer game out of it. I know people consider returning zones a bad thing even in Mania, with it only getting a semi-pass cuz they did some cool stuff with it, but it's something I've wanted the series to do more of anyway (not the whole "more old zones than new ones" part but eh, I can deal).

Yes; after all, Sonic 3 & Knuckles / Sonic Adventure were tied together in a fairly similar way, in that S3K introduced many important plot elements that would be developed in unique ways throughout Adventure!

This also keeps open a door for the next 2D and 3D games to be related: this could be very special, as we are nearing the 20th anniversary of Sonic Adventure!!   

[Eggman]

So do any of the new characters have names? Does the final boss even have one?

[Osmium]

So Mania's ending really does tie into Forces? 

Well, FUCK. 

[Your Vest Friend]

41 minutes ago, Eggman said:

So do any of the new characters have names? Does the final boss even have one?

Nothing official bar one, but since that one is one of the Hard Boiled Heavies (Heavy Gunner), it can be guessed what the other regular ones are (either things like Heavy Ninja, Heavy Magician, Heavy Knight or things based on the weapon like Heavy Blade, Heavy Magic, Heavy Charger). Leader seems like he might be on top so maybe has a different naming scheme.

[Zers Editor]

So, this is how it looks to me. Generations should be tossed away, cause it was confirmed to be un-canon and made solely for the celebration.

Modern (1) and Classic (2).

1. (past) - Colors - Lost World - Forces
2. S1 - S2 - S3 - S&K - SM

In the good Mania ending, he travels into the Modern universe. Bold-marked is a crossing point between the two and in the end of Forces, Classic Sonic comes back into his dimension.

Have some corrections?

[Chris Knopps]

I do hope we get more projects from Whitehead Team that don't tie into Sonic Team's projects in the future.

To say I'm okay with the idea of using 2D titles as a gimmick to sell games from Sonic Team would be an impressive lie.

They shouldn't need a bunch of fans making side titles in order to help their games sell, they should be competent enough to sell their games without help.

Therein lies my biggest issue, they lack confidence in their own skills/projects and have resorted to stuff like this to hopefully  move copies.

This isn't some east vs west issue as was mentioned by @Celestia, that's not what I'm going for here, it's a matter of coming off too d@$n desperate.

If we've literally reached the point where it takes making side projects from fans to sell a main project from "professionals" then yeah, that's sad and bad.

[Dr. Mechano]

I really like that there's conspicuously no "4" on the elevator.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

I really like that there's conspicuously no "4" on the elevator.

I mean, Whitehead himself seems to loathe Sonic 4 so it's no surprise. Everyone wants that thing retconned.

[Adamis]

But what if... it wasn't "desperate" as you're implying ?

You seems to love blaming Iizuka and Sonic Team out of nowhere. Unless we hear something from Taxman or someone from the team, there's nothing to indicate who took whichever decision and it's tiresome to see multiple posts consisting of "baw Iizuka is the worst because he must have linked this game I didn't play to this other game I didn't play".

What's the problem with having two games forming a bigger story than two separate games ? Heh, it could be argued that some 8-bit games like 1 and 2 are linked to the MD games and no one sees a problem with that. And even if you don't like the connection, just play Mania. No one told you to buy Forces.

Oh, and calling Mania a "side" game just diminishes the value of the game more than it being linked to another game.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, Adamis said:

Oh, and calling Mania a "side" game just diminishes the value of the game more than it being linked to another game.

Oh, I agree.

I think Mania is a far more "important" game than Forces for the franchise as a whole. Mania is a grand return to a gameplay style that hasn't been used in two decades. Forces is just another boost game.

Either way, Mania is every bit as much a "main series" game as the Genesis titles were, and to me personally, far more of a big deal in the grand scheme of things than Forces is.