Sonic Mania SPOILERS/Impressions Thread

[Zippo]

Have there been any reports or posts of anyone else downloading or having the game? Sega has more or less stopped caring about Mania leak videos being online, so streams should be fine now.

[McGroose]

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

I feel like it's fair to call Shadow the Hedgehog's story a hot nonsensical mess as well.

Trust me, Shadow was my least favorite game too. But the story was just bad, not a clusterfuck like 06. At least I knew what exactly was happening in Shadow.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, Jango said:

I'm gonna be honest with myself and say that I'm actually glad I saw the spoilers, especially the one regarding Forces' connection.

I must come out and say why I think this decision will ultimately do more harm than good. Hope you understand.

This game was made to appeal to classic fans, and classic fans only. It was stated multiple times that this is the game to >that< kind of fans. And, unlike soulless previous attempts, this IS the Sonic 4 as you've truly imagined it. 

Then, someone decides to insert not a nod or easter-egg, but a whole plot device and, on top of that, a cliffhanger. Both of them from a game that has COMPLETELY DIFFERENT mechanics, aesthetics, and most important: target audience. Target audience. 

I want someone to give me ONE good reason to justify this decision: end a game with a cliffhanger to a completely different game. Can you imagine how annoyed the people who want nothing to do with Sonic Forces will feel when the game meant for them has no true ending? How weird it will be for people who don't even know about Sonic Forces? What these people are supposed to do? They're being forced to either buy the game to see it's ending, or watch it on YT.

But right now Sonic Mania has no ending. And that's not good at all. It had NO RIGHT to be like this. This was a big mistake.

As if this isn't enough, other part of the game suffers from it: level transitions. Sure it's "just" a minor thing for some, but thanks to Forces' shenanigans, most of them are lazy ass teleportation stuff to justify the game's villain Infinite... It's bad because both Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon have cool transitions. I think all levels were going to have unique transitions, but they had to change it near the end of production to the same basic teleportation thingy... And what about the Sonic Island? Scrapped? Never meant anything? 

IDK man. We shall find out if I'm wrong or right on tuesday. But mark my words, the Forces' connection was a mistake and will do more harm than good.

This whole comment = SEGA-Sense.

3 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Wow, good job putting Sega at such a ridiculously shitty standard. Don't take into account that anyone with common sense would know that if you make a story as poorly explained as you described would be objectively terrible. "But it's Sega!" Ya, and Sega's been proven to be dumb, but I can only think of one time they've made a story that was true shit (06). Boom, for as awful as it was, still had an acceptable story. You can criticize the gameplay as much as you want, but to criticize the story of a game prior to it's release is incredibly unfair. All you know so far is that Eggman rules the world, there's a resistance, and he's somehow made some older enemies loyal to him, likely due to some form of dimension traveling via that mysterious purple gem (which could be in Infinite). I'd say we know 5% of the story.

Forces isn't Generations. One of the main selling points of this game is the story alone. This game will probably be as story-driven as Adventure 2.

While the Forces title may/will be as story driven as SA2, whether it will make sense and/or be any good is the issue.

Keep in mind how bare boned the series has been plot wise since Colors, that is a LONG time to forget how deeper stories work.

Just like how since S3&K it was a LONG time to forget how Classic Sonic works.

To have near to nothing in your plots for so many years then all of a sudden try to go Hollywood, who knows how it will turn out.

It might be unfair to criticize the plot of Forces at this current time, but based on how much there is to explain in the plot, and how many characters they are throwing into the mix, I don't see them handling it very well.

We'll see, but I doubt it will be anything on par with Unleashed, Black Knight, etc, back when they did deep plots frequently thus remembered how to make them.

[Jango]

What the hell is SEGA-sense?

[Dee Dude]

16 minutes ago, Jango said:

I'm gonna be honest with myself and say that I'm actually glad I saw the spoilers, especially the one regarding Forces' connection.

I must come out and say why I think this decision will ultimately do more harm than good. Hope you understand.

This game was made to appeal to classic fans, and classic fans only. It was stated multiple times that this is the game to >that< kind of fans. And, unlike soulless previous attempts, this IS the Sonic 4 as you've truly imagined it. 

Then, someone decides to insert not a nod or easter-egg, but a whole plot device and, on top of that, a cliffhanger. Both of them from a game that has COMPLETELY DIFFERENT mechanics, aesthetics, and most important: target audience. Target audience. 

I want someone to give me ONE good reason to justify this decision: end a game with a cliffhanger to a completely different game. Can you imagine how annoyed the people who want nothing to do with Sonic Forces will feel when the game meant for them has no true ending? How weird it will be for people who don't even know about Sonic Forces? What these people are supposed to do? They're being forced to either buy the game to see it's ending, or watch it on YT.

But right now Sonic Mania has no ending. And that's not good at all. It had NO RIGHT to be like this. This was a big mistake.

As if this isn't enough, other part of the game suffers from it: level transitions. Sure it's "just" a minor thing for some, but thanks to Forces' shenanigans, most of them are lazy ass teleportation stuff to justify the game's villain Infinite... It's bad because both Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon have cool transitions. I think all levels were going to have unique transitions, but they had to change it near the end of production to the same basic teleportation thingy... And what about the Sonic Island? Scrapped? Never meant anything? 

IDK man. We shall find out if I'm wrong or right on tuesday. But mark my words, the Forces' connection was a mistake and will do more harm than good.

 

 

Dude...it's literally just one ending. 

Being connected to Forces doesn't ruin it from being primarily Classic.

Even if it implies a prequel to Forces, it's still a mere secret that leave newbies curious.

You don't see Modern Sonic popping up anywhere in Mania do you?

Also, SEGA- Sense is something Chris made up.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Jango said:

What the hell is SEGA-sense?

It's basically nonsensical and self-indulging operations.

1 minute ago, Dee Dude said:

Dude...it's literally just one ending.

Being connected to Forces doesn't ruin it from being primarily Classic.

This is true. No matter what Mania itself still is fantastic.

[McGroose]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

This whole comment = SEGA-Sense.

While the Forces title may/will be as story driven as SA2, whether it will make sense and/or be any good is the issue.

Keep in mind how bare boned the series has been plot wise since Colors, that is a LONG time to forget how deeper stories work.

Just like how since S3&K it was a LONG time to forget how Classic Sonic works.

To have near to nothing in your plots for so many years then all of a sudden try to go Hollywood, who knows how it will turn out.

It might be unfair to criticize the plot of Forces at this current time, but based on how much there is to explain in the plot, and how many characters they are throwing into the mix, I don't see them handling it very well.

We'll see, but I doubt it will be anything on par with Unleashed, Black Knight, etc, back when they did deep plots frequently thus remembered how to make them.

My point exactly, "who knows", apparently a quarter of the SSMB knows because they're already criticizing the entire story as if they know the entire thing already.

And I really hope it's not on par with Black Knight. Those stories were incredibly unfitting for Sonic. 

If Sonic games had a rating system for plot complexity, I'd put Unleashed somewhere in the Middle and Adventure 2, Shadow and 06 at the top.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, McGroose said:

And I really hope it's not on par with Black Knight. Those stories were incredibly unfitting for Sonic.

I'm not really sure how. There are many who place Black Knight at the top or close to it of storytelling in this franchise.

The game play was the issue, but the plot was heralded far and wide for the most part.

(Plus got to dig a female villain, that was well done)

[Jango]

8 minutes ago, Dee Dude said:

Dude...it's literally just one ending.

Being connected to Forces doesn't ruin it from being primarily Classic.

You don't see Modern Sonic popping up anywhere do you?

I think you're not seeing the big picture. People are going to invest in this game from beginning to end. They will get all the Emeralds expecting to see the true ending that NEVER COMES. This is awfull. 

It's like watching 90 minutes of soccer and find out the last 5 minutes will be decided on basketball. Sorry if my analogy isn't the best.

[Jetronic]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I feel like it's fair to call Shadow the Hedgehog's story a hot nonsensical mess as well.

Let me put it like this, as other have put it :

Shadow the hedgehog's story is utter ridiculous and uneeded, and everyone in 06 is just a complete idiot.

1 hour ago, Jango said:

What the hell is SEGA-sense?

Some random term he came up with to describe something that has no meaning, makes no sense, ill-advised tapping into one's own desires, passions, whims without restraint, without having to say the whole thing.

I agree with black knight's story being good though.

[Mauro Fonseca]

12 minutes ago, Jango said:

What the hell is SEGA-sense?

A meme he keeps trying to force to justify his hate boner for SEGA Japan. It's more palatable than "those damn Japs", admittedly.

[AuroraRedwinters]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'm not really sure, just throwing guesses on this one, but there has to be some reason for the ending being the quality it is.

 

I wonder if that is the real reason why the game got delayed from the original Spring 2017 release - hence the reason for the rushed looking ending. It still looks nice, but it does feel rushed.

I feel like I need to see what has to be unlocked in the extras and see if anything special happens when you finish with all three characters getting a good ending. Maybe there is some extra bonus cut scene or something.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Jetronic said:

Some random term he came up with to describe something that has no meaning, makes no sense, ill-advised tapping into one's own desires, passions, whims without restraint, without having to say the whole thing.

Pretty much that. It all-encompasses my thoughts about SEGA's business practices without having to make drawn out rants/discussions/explanations, it sums everything up in a single term that's easier to swallow than a bunch of "EYARGH SEGA!!" nonsense.

On the topic of Mania's ending...

Are they going to say that by Classic being gone Classic Robotnik spent "X-Years" conquering the world until Classic appeared in the present?

Or rather, without Classic, wouldn't his own dimension wind up just like Modern Sonic's dimension too?

Why did the Chaos Emeralds stay behind as well? Why not go with Classic?

Does this mean Forces is going to show that gem popping out of a hole and conking Modern Eggman on the head to explain how he got it?

[EmmBee]

Isn't it a bit too soon to be theorizing who ruined what and how? The game isn't even out yet, shouldn't we wait for a chance for the developer themselves to talk a bit about the game before we place all of this blame on people? Interpret interviews and developer blogs however you'd like from there and then form a decent theory.

I'm not even that huge of a Modern series fan, I totally get why people would dislike Forces and the connection it has with Mania. But it's tiring as fuck to keep hearing "Sega-sense" left and right just because of that ending. Like I think we've gotten the point.

I doubt me saying anything about it would do anything but oh well.

[McGroose]

Didn't the recent interview over Sonic Forces, the one that got tremendous amounts of shit on mind you, explain how Classic Sonic's involvement in Mania was basically a choice made really early on in Development? By that point, Mania was just a dream in Taxman's head.

That would mean that the Forces story would have to have been reworked as well, and I doubt that happened.

Just now, EmmBee said:

Isn't it a bit too soon to be theorizing who ruined what and how? The game isn't even out yet, shouldn't we wait for a chance for the developer themselves to talk a bit about the game before we place all of this blame on people? Interpret interviews and developer blogs however you'd like from there and then form a decent theory.

I'm not even that huge of a Modern series fan, I totally get why people would dislike Forces and the connection it has with Mania. But it's tiring as fuck to keep hearing "Sega-sense" left and right just because of that ending. Like I think we've gotten the point.

I doubt me saying anything about it would do anything but oh well.

Now wait a minute thar...

*Spits in spittoon*

Wait just a cotton-picking minute...

are you saying, and I quote, "wait for a chance"?

God damn it man have you lost yer mind?!

That's too reasonable round these here parts

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Didn't the recent interview over Sonic Forces, the one that got tremendous amounts of shit on mind you, explain how Classic Sonic's involvement in Mania was basically a choice made really early on in Development? By that point, Mania was just a dream in Taxman's head.

That would mean that the Forces story would have to have been reworked as well, and I doubt that happened.

I don't know... It's possible they started reworking both titles plots along the way to make them, well, make some sort of sense by being connected at some point.

No matter how it turns out, it will be... Interesting.

It's like I said, now I'm expecting that gem from Classic's dimension to pop out of a hole and hit Modern Eggman on the head at this point.

Though it makes me wonder...

Doesn't this mean the SAME gem is hidden on Angel Island in Modern Sonic's dimension as well, meaning there should be TWO of them...?

[McGroose]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Doesn't this mean the SAME gem is hidden on Angel Island in Modern Sonic;s dimension as well, meaning there should be TWO of them...?

Sure. I don't see why not. Here's three ideas:

1. There's one gem that Modern Eggman, somehow, manages to find. Not totally unbelievable. He can make time travel work.

2. There are two identical gems for each time and Modern Eggman just happened to find the one in his world.

3. The gem has become sentient on it's own, becoming Infinite. Eggman and Infinite strike a deal out of mutual benefit, not because Infinite was created by Eggman.

Eitherway, I think it's safe to say that the Gem is a very important mcguffin in Sonic Mania and quite possibly Forces. We should be paying less attention to Classic Sonic's ending and more about the significance of that gem. I think that the gem is the only thing connecting these two games together, but only in the sense that both use the same device.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, McGroose said:

Sure. I don't see why not. Here's three ideas:

1. There's one gem that Modern Eggman, somehow, manages to find. Not totally unbelievable. He can make time travel work.

2. There are two identical gems for each time and Modern Eggman just happened to find the one in his world.

3. The gem has become sentient on it's own, becoming Infinite. Eggman and Infinite strike a deal out of mutual benefit, not because Infinite was created by Eggman.

Eitherway, I think it's safe to say that the Gem is a very important mcguffin in Sonic Mania and quite possibly Forces. We should be paying less attention to Classic Sonic's ending and more about the significance of that gem. I think that the gem is the only thing connecting these two games together, but only in the sense that both use the same device.

I don't see an all-powerful gem becoming sentient and partnering with some random fat guy who gets a jolly kick out of fighting a furry blue animal when its only goal likely isn't to conquer but to instead destroy the entirety of reality.

I'm suspecting us to go through Heroes all over again where it just takes over Eggman's entire army and goes total hell all over the planet under the guise of benefiting Eggman's cause while in the end waiting to kill him off too.

Though that's just me thinking as a gem that can warp and ruin any and everything with a flick of a finger.

[Multikaris]

27 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

 

While the Forces title may/will be as story driven as SA2, whether it will make sense and/or be any good is the issue.

Keep in mind how bare boned the series has been plot wise since Colors, that is a LONG time to forget how deeper stories work.

Just like how since S3&K it was a LONG time to forget how Classic Sonic works.

To have near to nothing in your plots for so many years then all of a sudden try to go Hollywood, who knows how it will turn out.

It might be unfair to criticize the plot of Forces at this current time, but based on how much there is to explain in the plot, and how many characters they are throwing into the mix, I don't see them handling it very well.

We'll see, but I doubt it will be anything on par with Unleashed, Black Knight, etc, back when they did deep plots frequently thus remembered how to make them.

Man, Forces is having more and more parallels to Sonic 4. From the music to the long time to forget how serious stories work (which was actually shorter than when they forgot how physics worked), to the fact that the other thing providing what we wanted died (or ceased to even try to do so, in boom's case.), to people like MeltingMan234 serving as Nicochi equivalents, right down to the marketing. 

 

So, I now wonder how they'll miswrite these serious stories?

[McGroose]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I don't see an all-powerful gem becoming sentient and partnering with some random fat guy who gets a jolly kick out of fighting a furry blue animal when its only goal likely isn't to conquer but to instead destroy the entirety of reality.

This is Sonic the Hedgehog. You intentionally described the scenario as being ridiculous when most of what you said has already happened in probably 3+ games already.

[Sonicfan287]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

 

Doesn't this mean the SAME gem is hidden on Angel Island in Modern Sonic's dimension as well, meaning there should be TWO of them...?

Technically not though, although I'm not clear if this is suppose to be 2 different alternate universes or a time travel thing.... because if it's a time travel thing, that gem on Angel Island would be gone in Modern Sonic's time because of the events of Mania. If they're 2 different universes, then yes?? Unless that purple thing only exists in Mania's universe ... I don't know, that's why I hate the premise that "classic Sonic" is somebody else... he's just a younger Sonic as far as we know. I like the plot much better that in Sonic's absense Robotnik's plans were able to succeed, hence the dark future in Forces but that doesn't work if "Modern Sonic" is around to stop Robotnik but then it's not even the same Robotnik?? I don't know... I don't get it... 

I actually thought of a theory that would've perfectly explained Chaos, Shadow and company returning. Assuming Sonic Mania takes place after S3&K and before Sonic Adventure, after those events, the timeline is now altered so that Robotnik's plans in Sonic Adventure worked and he got Perfect Chaos to level parts of the world, was able to get Shadow to join his team and none of the villains were defeated because no Sonic. But that doesn't make a lick of sense if Modern Sonic is around to witness all of this. So yeah, I don't know. 

[Alienrun]

I both love and hate how this has now become a Sonic Forces thread instead of a Mania one...

 

 

Also @McGroose (and anyone else who is surprised by the reactions going on here) I'm pretty nutreal about this myself, not so much because the desicion is justifiable but because we simply don't have enough info to even make a proper reaction. Speculation is fine, but when its baseless I tend to lose interest.

Its basically why I wasn't commenting, people have a right to complain about whatever they want and to whatever extent they want.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, McGroose said:

This is Sonic the Hedgehog. You intentionally described the scenario as being ridiculous when most of what you said has already happened in probably 3+ games already.

Repetition is kind of a usual thing in this franchise so it wouldn't be out of the norm at all to have Heroes plot 2.0, or rather 3.0 since they did a Heroes in Lost World too.

2 minutes ago, Sonicfan287 said:

Technically not though, although I'm not clear if this is suppose to be 2 different alternate universes or a time travel thing.... because if it's a time travel thing, that gem on Angel Island would be gone in Modern Sonic's time because of the events of Mania. If they're 2 different universes, then yes?? Unless that purple thing only exists in Mania's universe ... I don't know, that's why I hate the premise that "classic Sonic" is somebody else... he's just a younger Sonic as far as we know. I like the plot much better that in Sonic's absense Robotnik's plans were able to succeed, hence the dark future in Forces but that doesn't work if "Modern Sonic" is around to stop Robotnik but then it's not even the same Robotnik?? I don't know... I don't get it... 

I actually thought of a theory that would've perfectly explained Chaos, Shadow and company returning. Assuming Sonic Mania takes place after S3&K and before Sonic Adventure, after those events, the timeline is now altered so that Robotnik's plans in Sonic Adventure worked and he got Perfect Chaos to level parts of the world, was able to get Shadow to join his team and none of the villains were defeated because no Sonic. But that doesn't make a lick of sense if Modern Sonic is around to witness all of this. So yeah, I don't know. 

It could be that Mania was about racing for that dimensions stone while Forces is about a race to find the second stone within its dimension.

Double the stones, double the power, but if the Modern cast can find it before the villains, maybe they can counter the gem from Classic's dimension.

[Sonicfan287]

Just now, Alienrun said:

I both love and hate how this has now become a Sonic Forces thread instead of a Mania one...

 

 

Also @McGroose (and anyone else who is surprised by the reactions going on here) I'm pretty nutreal about this myself, not so much because the desicion is justifiable but because we simply don't have enough info to even make a proper reaction. Speculation is fine, but when its baseless I tend to lose interest.

Its basically why I wasn't commenting, people have a right to complain about whatever they want and to whatever extent they want.

I'm only mad about it becoming a Forces discussion because it's detracting from the game itself. I'd much rather be talking about some of the great level design we saw, the EPIC final level (I didn't see the final boss itself so I can't comment, nor do I wish to know), some of the surprises in the game and the wonderful music... the game was so fantastic from the 60% or so I saw of it and yet we're all discussing the ending and what it means or why they chose to do it that way. It's worth talking about but so is the 12 zones that came before it. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Sonicfan287 said:

I'm only mad about it becoming a Forces discussion because it's detracting from the game itself. I'd much rather be talking about some of the great level design we saw, the EPIC final level (I didn't see the final boss itself so I can't comment, nor do I wish to know), some of the surprises in the game and the wonderful music... the game was so fantastic from the 60% or so I saw of it and yet we're all discussing the ending and what it means or why they chose to do it that way. It's worth talking about but so is the 12 zones that came before it. 

Wait until the rest of the consumers and critics see and go on about the ending. This is nothing.

It wouldn't be unexpected to see the entirety of Mania be forgotten in favor of raging on about what has been done with the plot. It's sad but HIGHLY possible.