Sonic Mania SPOILERS/Impressions Thread

[McGroose]

Just now, Alienrun said:

Also @McGroose (and anyone else who is surprised by the reactions going on here) I'm pretty nutreal about this myself, not so much because the desicion is justifiable but because we simply don't have enough info to even make a proper reaction. Speculation is fine, but when its baseless I tend to lose interest.

Its basically why I wasn't commenting, people have a right to complain about whatever they want and to whatever extent they want.

I completely agree with you, which is part of the reason I love SSMB discussions so much. I've just come to expect this. This whole thread has been a rollercoaster.

Cheers to 50+ pages of insane speculations and Oil Ocean zone rage.

[Sonicfan287]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Wait until the rest of the consumers and critics see and go on about the ending. This is nothing.

It wouldn't be unexpected to see the entirety of Mania be forgotten in favor of raging on about what has been done with the plot. It's sad but HIGHLY possible.

I don't think the critics will really care about the ending tbh. I'm sure they'll find reasons to criticize the game but I'm guessing most critics (and even a good portion of consumers who are just buying the game out of curiosity and because it's a good price) may not even get all the emeralds and just beat the game the normal way and not see that or even if they do, they won't know what it means or care that it links to some other Sonic game. Forces just has a lousy reputation to this point so the fact that there's any link there is making people feel somehow betrayed by the entirety of Mania. I don't think critics or casual fans will see it that way. If they have a beef with the game, it won't be because of one brief moment at the end of it. In terms of Sonic fans, including most on this board, oh yeah, I can see the ending and the exclusion of Amy (at least to this point) being heavy topics of criticism. 

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, McGroose said:

I completely agree with you, which is part of the reason I love SSMB discussions so much. I've just come to expect this. This whole thread has been a rollercoaster.

Cheers to 50+ pages of insane speculations and Oil Ocean zone rage.

I'll second that. Here's a glass to you and the others involved. Always a fun time.

Just now, Sonicfan287 said:

I don't think the critics will really care about the ending tbh. I'm sure they'll find reasons to criticize the game but I'm guessing most critics (and even a good portion of consumers who are just buying the game out of curiosity and because it's a good price) may not even get all the emeralds and just beat the game the normal way and not see that or even if they do, they won't know what it means or care that it links to some other Sonic game. Forces just has a lousy reputation to this point so the fact that there's any link there is making people feel somehow betrayed by the entirety of Mania. I don't think critics or casual fans will see it that way. If they have a beef with the game, it won't be because of one brief moment at the end of it. In terms of Sonic fans, including most on this board, oh yeah, I can see the ending and the exclusion of Amy (at least to this point) being heavy topics of criticism. 

That is my highest hope.

[McGroose]

I guarantee you that the big critics and reviewers won't care about the ending at all.

All of the rage will be exclusive to Sonic forums and youtube comments.

[Meta77]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Wait until the rest of the consumers and critics see and go on about the ending. This is nothing.

It wouldn't be unexpected to see the entirety of Mania be forgotten in favor of raging on about what has been done with the plot. It's sad but HIGHLY possible.

Most the internet is not as salty about modern games as a handful are here. Damn force isnt even out yet nor true story details and people cry as if satan tipped thier milkjug over. Cant even enjoy mania a few days away without people bashing and crying over forces still .

[Sonicfan287]

Just now, McGroose said:

I guarantee you that the big critics and reviewers won't care about the ending at all.

All of the rage will be exclusive to Sonic forums and youtube comments.

And who knows? Maybe if Forces ends up being good (which I haven't completely written it off yet), this will be looked at as a genius idea, to have these 2 games releasing this year that are linked together. I mean, other than Sonic 3 and Knuckles (which were meant to be one game anyway) and to a degree SA1 and 2, Sonic are never "to be continued" like this, so it would be a cool idea if it went into a BETTER game, which we don't know. Forces could be an amazing 3D game and then this looks like a good idea. If it's a lousy game, people will hate this part of Mania. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Meta77 said:

Most the internet is not as salty about modern games as a handful are here. Damn force isnt even out yet nor true story details and people cry as if satan tipped thier milkjug over. Cant even enjoy mania a few days away without people bashing and crying over forces still .

Well, if not for the connection I doubt it'd be happening to this degree. But now that the strings are tied...

Fun time's over.

(Though this guy will still be having a blast when he gets Mania)

[McGroose]

Going back to the actual Mania discussion, does anyone else think that the reason for the awkward lack of level transitions in some levels was because he was playing on time attack and not on Mania mode? He switched back and forth a lot.

[Sonicfan287]

1 minute ago, McGroose said:

Going back to the actual Mania discussion, does anyone else think that the reason for the awkward lack of level transitions in some levels was because he was playing on time attack and not on Mania mode? He switched back and forth a lot.

Unfortunately no, because time attack mode removes the bosses at the end of the acts and these zones still had bosses, even the ones that just faded into the next level. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, McGroose said:

Going back to the actual Mania discussion, does anyone else think that the reason for the awkward lack of level transitions in some levels was because he was playing on time attack and not on Mania mode? He switched back and forth a lot.

It's possible...

It could be the transitions were only used during big key moments, done to emphasize what scenes there are in the game. Make them more special.

[expansivelovestories]

Yes; I agree that definitely for Sonic to be pulled out and brought back to his current timeline/dimension etc will allow something to have changed enough for there to be a new plot for the next entry in the series: either a zone pack DLC using the Mania engine and assets, which may be what happens?; or of course a second, separate Retro/PGW/Sega 2D Sonic!!

it is probably unwise to get into it (but the pages here are moving fast enough that it will not really be noticed!) but maybe there is a Mania Epilogue DLC eventually to arrive, which would be incredible and well worth this sort of intermingling!!

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Most the internet is not as salty about modern games as a handful are here. Damn force isnt even out yet nor true story details and people cry as if satan tipped thier milkjug over. Cant even enjoy mania a few days away without people bashing and crying over forces still .

Disliking what we've seen of it isn't tantamount to "crying" over it.

I think it's fine to be critical of what Sega's shown us so far.

[Meta77]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Disliking what we've seen of it isn't tantamount to "crying" over it.

I think it's fine to be critical of what Sega's shown us so far.

Thats the thing. They have shown next to noting. But like all 3D sonic games youll always have that segment that grits their teeth into their sleep. Ill do reasonable thing and wait till they are ready to show more instead of 06ing the game and trying to push something out fast as they can. Least mania will appease many for a a bit

[Blue Wisp]

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It could be the transitions were only used during big key moments, done to emphasize what scenes there are in the game. Make them more special.

Should've been used to flesh out the story instead of big key moments.

Some glaring issues I have is that there's some level order that just doesn't make sense. How does Sonic go from Lava Reef to Little Planet (assuming Metallic Madness is in Little Planet) just like that? Or from Hydrocity to the Tornado and Mirage Saloon. 

It's a small detail that adds up man.

[Sonicfan287]

1 minute ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

Should've been used to flesh out the story instead of big key moments.

Some glaring issues I have is that there's some level order that just doesn't make sense. How does Sonic go from Lava Reef to Little Planet (assuming Metallic Madness is in Little Planet) just like that? Or from Hydrocity to the Tornado and Mirage Saloon. 

It's a small detail that adds up man.

I could swear I noticed Little Planet in the background of Lava Reef towards the end of Act 2? Maybe Robotnik was once again able to chain it up (to Angel Island this time) or somehow the time travel/reality manipulation is allowing all these places to coexist a lot closer to each other than before?? I'm not sure. I don't think the game puts too much thought into things like that. 

[Dannymax440]

How exactly did the Chemical plant bosses played out?

I've also noticed on how a majority of the excluded Classic levels have gotten a representation based off their known gimmicks in both new and old zones.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Dannymax440 said:

How exactly did the Chemical plant bosses played out?

I've also noticed on how a majority of the excluded Classic levels have gotten a representation in their known gimmicks in both new and old zones.

So which excluded ones didn't make the cut at all? Could the Sonic Head Island be Mirage Island from Sonic 4? As Japan called it a "continent", I suppose this Sonic Head Island should be the size of Australia. 

[Speedi]

Just now, Meta77 said:

Thats the thing. They have shown next to noting. But like all 3D sonic games youll always have that segment that grits their teeth into their sleep. Ill do reasonable thing and wait till they are ready to show more instead of 06ing the game and trying to push something out fast as they can. Least mania will appease many for a a bit

Skepticism is fine, I don't really see what's wrong with people calling a game's story bad when we've had plenty of interviews speaking on it and at least one trailer focusing on it. You make it sound like the only thing we have to go off of is the first teaser from 2016. Don't put yourself on some kind of pedestal just because you have a different opinion then someone else about something. It's fine if you don't agree with it, but to call them unreasonable for not liking the way the story is shaping up is going too far.

[Dr. Mechano]

14 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Thats the thing. They have shown next to noting. But like all 3D sonic games youll always have that segment that grits their teeth into their sleep. Ill do reasonable thing and wait till they are ready to show more instead of 06ing the game and trying to push something out fast as they can. Least mania will appease many for a a bit

I've seen enough to say that I think Infinite seems like a bland tryhard villain without much personality so far, and that I find the OC generator (something that will take up about a third of the game) to be a bad idea.

I'm also just not a fan of the boost gameplay style, and vastly prefer the more fluid 3D movement of the older 3D games, but eh.

I don't expect it to be unplayable like 06. but I do expect to dislike it. And that's okay.

At this point I'm just hoping the classic Sonic levels are at least fun, and that Eggman steals the show in the story cutscenes. There may be redeemable qualities in Forces yet, and I hope to enjoy those qualities even if I dislike the game overall; which I think I will.

[Dannymax440]

1 minute ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

So which excluded ones didn't make the cut at all? Could the Sonic Head Island be Mirage Island from Sonic 4? As Japan called it a "continent", I suppose this Sonic Head Island should be the size of Australia. 

Eh not sure. Haven't seen the full game to know which ones

[Megabox91(Renzy)]

17 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Thats the thing. They have shown next to noting. But like all 3D sonic games youll always have that segment that grits their teeth into their sleep. Ill do reasonable thing and wait till they are ready to show more instead of 06ing the game and trying to push something out fast as they can. Least mania will appease many for a a bit

Thank you, all of this complaining about a game that we've haven't seen much of is really damn annoying. It's like when Generations was first being shown and people were comparing about modern Sonic's levels being too linear after ONLY seeing Green Hill. Wait until you see the game in its entirety before passing judgement on it o

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, McGroose said:

So, for everything saying that Mania and Forces are clearly connected, let's think carefully about what that implies.

If Sonic Mania is a direct prequel to Forces that explains how Classic Sonic ended up in Modern Sonic's time, That means that Forces is going to have to show how Classic Sonic gets teleported to the universe where Eggman rules, either via a CGI cutscene or an ingame cutscene. Sega isn't good at storytelling in Sonic (Honestly, give me one example and I'll argue against it), but even they wouldn't just slap a card saying "play Mania first" then just show Sonic dropping in Green Sand Hill zone. Give as much shit to Iizuka as you want, but he and anyone with common sense would know that's a terrible idea.

So one scenario that's possible is that Forces will begin by recreating the ending of Mania, and I mean the entire ending. They can't just show Classic Sonic going through a portal, because people who play Forces only will not understand what happened, and Classic Sonic can't talk to anyone to explain what happened. We need to know how he got in the portal. But if we see how that happens, then the ending of Mania is spoiled at the beginning of the Forces. Not to mention that Forces story was likely finalized before Mania was even approved of by Sega.

Or the more likely alternative is that Forces and Mania are not connected whatsoever and the ending of Mania being suspiciously ambiguous is pure coincidence. 

Mania and Forces were heavily advertised as two completely separate games and I believe this applies to the stories as well. If there is SOME kind of connection, it'll be that the mystery emerald discovered is used again in Forces somehow, but nothing else, which is totally possible. Modern Eggman could somehow get his hands on this emerald and cause all sorts of havoc. 

Mania Sonic might be the one in Forces, but I doubt he went to Forces immediately in Mania's ending. My theory is that Modern Eggman messes with Mania Sonic's time well after his battle with Classic Eggman and the final HBH in the purple void.

That sure is some optimism for Segas competence. And given how they treated classics inclusion given that interview a few days ago, I'm not really trusting of the idea that Sega have given it that much thought. Like, you're actually insinuating that the ending, which has SIMILAR properties that have been shown in Forces is mere coincidence, and that it's more likely they still have nothing to do with eachother. I mean...?

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

That sure is some optimism for Segas competence. And given how they treated classics inclusion given that interview a few days ago, I'm not really trusting of the idea that Sega have given it that much thought. Like, you're actually insinuating that the ending, which has SIMILAR properties that have been shown in Forces is mere coincidence, and that it's more likely they still have nothing to do with eachother. I mean...?

It's like someone else said a few days ago, it's as if not even SEGA know why Forces is happening. It's just a thing and to help it sell copies they did Mania.

Forces seems to have had a purpose at one point, a good direction, and it was lost along the way, likely when they started getting paranoid over being serious again.

We've seen as much paranoia from them over making Forces as we have confusion.

[Sonicfan287]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's like someone else said a few days ago, it's as if not even SEGA know why Forces is happening. It's just a thing and to help it sell copies they did Mania.

Forces seems to have had a purpose at one point, a good direction, and it was lost along the way, likely when they started getting paranoid over being serious again.

We've seen as much paranoia from them over making Forces as we have confusion.

Honestly, Forces should've just been "Robotnik takes over the world" because it's what we've been waiting for since the beginning. Focus on that Sonic vs. Robotnik vibe and have Tails and Knuckles be alternate playable characters. It would've been a nostalgic adventure while also being something brand new. Instead it's way overcomplicated and I don't know why. It could still be fun to play (I'm a bit more forgiving on story if the game is actually fun which we have yet to see) and therefore still a decent title but this just seems like such a slam dunk of an idea and they've found a way to make it convoluted. 

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Forces seems to have had a purpose at one point, a good direction, and it was lost along the way, likely when they started getting paranoid over being serious again.

It's not like "serious" can't work with Sonic, but I feel like Sega's just really bad at it.

I feel like they should focus on being charming first; Because doing that is a great way to get us to like - and therefore care about - the characters. Mania manages to do this quite well, despite its minimalistic story, as the characters are highly animated and display tons of personality.

I think darker Sonic stories can work, but they should take a page from the Mario RPGs and balance the more serious themes with the same likable, whimsical charm that got us to like these characters in the first place, and not go so overly dark that it feels like a forced cry for relevancy.

There's a balance they could strike and they just never do whenever they try for more "serious" stories. Remember, the people behind Shadow the Hedgehog genuinely thought it was a gripping, well-written serious story. It actually wasn't meant to be a comedy, unbelievably.