Why doesn't Sonic get more complaints about being Overpowered than Shadow

[Dash Speed]

Lets clear this up, I've seen people complain about Shadow's "being to powerful or unbeatable" everywhere but the thing is, thats kinda not how it relates to him being a better character. Especially when Sonic is always the "asspull" one(sorry for my language) that gets the most powerful feats and is hailed and praised for stomping monsters, gods, abstract beings with a cocky one liner in tow. Shadow's haters moan he's so strong, but wheres the scorn when Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman throw massive power inflation in their moments in the games or comics. And somehow they are loved when they showcase "OP" they are on Shadow in a fight, like Shadow is a god mod sue that can't be defeated even though he has plenty, even in cannon material Sonic has to be one step ahead of Shadow in speed, resourcefulness, luck, chaos abilites that relate to Shadow's, fighting which makes Shadow look like the underdog here. Shadow had his moments, but isn't that what tension is for when the main character needs to be matched with a being on par if not better than him so he can look even more impressive when he defeats him at the end. IMO Shadow never felt like he was better than Sonic, Sonic has the OP factor here since he's the measuring stick how characters like Blaze and Silver have to be to stand a chance against him, and Shadow being better than them should not be a issue, because it's how he was created, a dark mirror of Sonic the Hedgehog that equals his OP plot shield status. 

Eggman, Knuckles, and Metal Sonic got their chance with Big Blue and he defeated them with his own natural abilites. Shadow's the first rival in the series that forced Sonic to take a level in badass for once to match his chaos power, and now he's equal to Shadow if not stronger and faster now. Shadow being that strong is well deserved since Sonic was ace op machine to begin with.

Can we just take Shadow as strong as he needs to be like Sonic without complaints. He can still be OP but have a well written personality and interesting character, like Raoh from Fist of the North Star, the only character to fight on par with Kenshiro.  Like In the anime, Shadow became only as strong as Sonic because well Shadow's the only character who can kill Sonic at full power(bracelets wise) without being a god, Knuckles can't do it and Eggman is too incompetant to do it to. Sonic was too powerful to be the main character some times. 

[Chris Knopps]

Cause Shadow needs guns to be powerful? lol

[Kuzu]

Nobody fucking cares that's why.

[rosedust]

Highkey who cares.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Nobody fucking cares that's why.

That's a little harsh...

I wouldn't say nobody cares. It's just something that's usually not thought about too often.

I will say Sonic is way too overpowered in boost games.

[Indigo Rush]

Bad, terrible, awful things happen to your mental serenity when you take Sonic's narrative too seriously. 

Infinite kicks Sonic against a wall and is faster than him. Sonic isn't OP anymore, so bask in it.

[Diogenes]

Sonic is the main character. Far more often than not he's the one who needs to deal with Eggman's biggest robot or the monster's true form in the end, so reasonably enough he's going to be one of the toughest characters in the series, and his win rate is naturally going to be inflated. But it's important not to conflate win rate with power level.

When it comes down to it, Sonic's powers are pretty modest. He's super fast, sure, with the agility to make proper use of that speed, and a spin that can smash through metal, but that's about it. Sure, technically he can use Chaos Control, but he essentially never does; as far as he knows, he hasn't used it since he and Shadow put the ARK back in place, in spite of having many opportunities to do so, so I can't realistically factor it into how strong he is. And Super Sonic requires all 7 emeralds and (as far as the story is concerned) only gets busted out when things are really going to shit; it's not part of his default toolkit. So most of Sonic's wins, Super Sonic final bosses aside, come from a fairly modest power set and enough pluck and determination to push through to victory. Which is a pretty solid formula for keeping your hero endearing, and making them, if not an underdog, at least reasonably challenged by whatever monstrous bullshit they've got to punch sense into at the climax of the story.

And then there's Shadow. Who, first off, has all the same base abilities as Sonic, the speed, the agility, the spins. He's got his own equal-to-Sonic Super form, if you insist on counting Sonic's. And unlike Sonic he does use his Chaos powers freely, teleporting around, stopping time, firing off bolts and blasts of energy, basically casually tearing spacetime a new one whenever something gets in his way. And then in ShtH we find out he's a good shot, he knows how to drive a motorcycle, he can flip a bus with one hand, and he's occasionally bulletproof. And at that point it gets a bit silly, not simply because he's (on paper) stronger than Sonic, but because he's being presented as a hypercompetent Sonic-but-more. Instead of filling his own niche, Shadow essentially makes Sonic redundant; anything Sonic can do Shadow should be able to match or exceed, with some extra tricks on top of it. And that's not how you go about making an endearing hero. An interesting villain, maybe, as someone Sonic has to continually strive to catch up to, but with Shadow firmly on the heroes' side and their rivalry being pretty limp (if it even still exists) there's no longer a dynamic between the two that makes it work.

[Wraith]

Shadow being more powerful than Sonic is kind of a weird thing to make a deal about. Blaze could just as easily be a match for Sonic and there aren't many complaints about her. 

Sonic has also won all their fights anyway so there's clearly something Sonic's got that Shadow doesn't. You can make a dynamic out of that. How Sonic is simply sharper at exploiting weaknesses or something like. There's nothing inherently wrong with Shadow having more powers as is. 

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

And then there's Shadow. Who, first off, has all the same base abilities as Sonic, the speed, the agility, the spins. He's got his own equal-to-Sonic Super form, if you insist on counting Sonic's. And unlike Sonic he does use his Chaos powers freely, teleporting around, stopping time, firing off bolts and blasts of energy, basically casually tearing spacetime a new one whenever something gets in his way. And then in ShtH we find out he's a good shot, he knows how to drive a motorcycle, he can flip a bus with one hand, and he's occasionally bulletproof. And at that point it gets a bit silly, not simply because he's (on paper) stronger than Sonic, but because he's being presented as a hypercompetent Sonic-but-more. Instead of filling his own niche, Shadow essentially makes Sonic redundant; anything Sonic can do Shadow should be able to match or exceed, with some extra tricks on top of it. And that's not how you go about making an endearing hero. An interesting villain, maybe, as someone Sonic has to continually strive to catch up to, but with Shadow firmly on the heroes' side and their rivalry being pretty limp (if it even still exists) there's no longer a dynamic between the two that makes it work.

I suppose I can take a shot since it involves a character I like.

 

This was an important point of Sonic Adventure 2; Shadow was essentially Sonic, but better. He had all of Sonic's abilities plus his own. Unlike Metal Sonic, who was specifically designed to surpass Sonic, Shadow was inherently superior. From their first meeting onward, the entire game is Sonic trying to catch up to Shadow. Shadow looked down on Sonic because he saw him as an inferior version of himself, but Sonic slowly but surely was catching up to him. They tied in their fight in Green Forest, and it's implied that Sonic beats him in their final fight aboard the Ark. More than anything else, Sonic manages to utilize the ability that set him and Shadow apart, effectively closing the gap between them that existed. This effectively earns Shadow's respect and he comes at Sonic with everything he's got, finally utilizing all of his abilities (at the time) in that boss fight. Also, it should be noted that Shadow has freely admitted that Sonic is better than him. 

The reason people don't complain about Sonic (or Eggman) being "OP" is because he's the driving force of the series, the one the conflict centers around and that one that's expected to resolve it. He's not necessarily "overpowered", but he is the star of the show at the end of the day. It's called Sonic the Hedgehog for a reason, and not "Sonic & Shadow". Additionally, Shadow served his purpose well in Sonic Adventure 2 as I illustrated, but they kind of half-assed him in subsequent appearances. In SA2, he was a better Sonic because he was the bar that Sonic had to catch up to by the ending, which he did. Afterward, they kept piling on more and more abilities on Shadow, while still trying to portray him and Sonic as "equals" despite everything that Shadow has, on top of all of Sonic's base abilities. And there's absolutely no  reason he needs these abilities either. Chaos Control and Chaos Spear already filled specific niches, so why they keep adding things like Chaos blast, and his inhibitor rings? They're just there to make Shadow look "cooler" but only serve to make him look like a bland, god mode DBZ character.

If they actually want people to see Sonic & Shadow as equals (or whatever), then they need to tone him the fuck down...which they kind of have done I guess. Every boss fight with him limits him to Sonic's abilities and Chaos Control. Because it's kind of hard to take a rivalry series when one party is so blatantly stronger than the other.

 

 

 

As a side note, don't equate power levels with popularity.

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Infinite kicks Sonic against a wall and is faster than him. Sonic isn't OP anymore, so bask in it.

Sonic just generically grunts when hitting walls and shows ZERO signs of damage from being thrashed around and beaten.

Still doesn't count, he's still OP.

Fight me.

[Darth InVaders]

G04 D@*& IT, Shadow is Sonic's equal. Also Knuckles is Sonic's equal. That means Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow are all equals.

It has been said that so many times. "Knuckles is as strong as Sonic is fast", "Shadow can equal (or at least rival) Sonic's speed" blah blah. Sonic has beaten all of them cause he's Sonic the hero of the series with the willpower and heart to overcome anything in the end. And also plot - if Sonic lost, the bad guy would have won, Sonic would be dead, the game story would be over. The first is part of his personality, not his power, therefore it does not make him "overpowered". The second part is just logical to continue the series.

When Shadow has a Chaos Emerald nearby to power himself, he has more diverse powers than when Sonic has an Emerald to power himself. Since this power depends on a Chaos Emerald, it does not count as hard against him.

When the outcome of the battle does not mean much (especially when both characters can be controlled by the player in both viewpoints) the battle most often ends in a draw.

[Shadowlax]

Simple, they want main character man to be the strongest. They want kirito. But sometimes main character man isn't the strongest, sometimes he actually has to... you know work hard to keep up with individuals or to fight them, because you know, it creates compelling characters and things like that. And they don't care about that. 

 

They care about main character man being the strongest. 

Also there's a contingent of folks who don't like shadow and the idea that he could... rock a lot of the cast angers them. 

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The reason people don't complain about Sonic (or Eggman) being "OP" is because he's the driving force of the series, the one the conflict centers around and that one that's expected to resolve it. He's not necessarily "overpowered", but he is the star of the show at the end of the day. It's called Sonic the Hedgehog for a reason, and not "Sonic & Shadow".

Eh,  no offence that's silly. I read plenty of comic books where the main character is a crazy person with gadgets. The punisher is literally an asshole with guns he fought the entire Avengers and won, eventually he got captured and went to trial, but he messed them up bad. I was going to mention batman but some folks would count infnite money as a power, so I went with someone more... small time. 

My point is, the punisher didn't have to be the strongest or the coolest to be the main character of the comic, nor does daredevil, or batman. They have to be compelling and charismatic, and that's why people like those characters. That's why people like sonic characters and sonic himself, the idea that shadow being stronger than sonic  or being OP is silly. There are people stronger than you in real life does that automatically make you not important, not the director of your own life, no. That's something you deal with, having to deal with that makes things interesting. 

I feel like the reason people don't complain about sonic is that his powers for the most part are simple, he goes fast that's it. There are other people with other powers some stronger than he is literally and figuratively some people have crazy powers sonic does have, and some people like shadow have both. And some people like silver are like dhalsim to sonic's zengief and should literally beat him 9-1 match up. But that last one is for another thread, point is the reason that folks don't think sonic is op because reletive to his peers he isn't. With out super sonic he's just a go fast animal, there are quite a few of them, and they could reck him tbh. So its less seen as him being OP as him over coming challenges. 

I also think shadow's inhibitor rings are fine, I find them to be harsh reminders for reality I guess. 

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Eh, thats no offence dumb. I read plenty of comic books where the main character is a crazy person with gadgets. The punisher is literally an asshole with guns he fought the entire Avengers and won, eventually he got captured and went to trial, but he messed them up bad. I was going to mention batman but some folks would count infnite money as a power, so I went with someone more... small time. 

My point is, the punisher didn't have to be the strongest or the coolest to be the main character of the comic, nor does daredevil, or batman. They have to be compelling and charismatic, and that's why people like those characters. That's why people like sonic characters and sonic himself, the idea that shadow being stronger than sonic  or being OP is silly. There are people stronger than you in real life does that automatically make you not important, not the director of your own life, no. That's something you deal with, having to deal with that makes things interesting. 

I feel like the reason people don't complain about sonic is that his powers for the most part are simple, he goes fast that's it. There are other people with other powers some stronger than he is literally and figuratively some people have crazy powers sonic does have, and some people like shadow have both. And some people like silver are like dhalsim to sonic's zengief and should literally beat him 9-1 match up. But that last one is for another thread, point is the reason that folks don't think sonic is op because reletive to his peers he isn't. With out super sonic he's just a go fast animal, there are quite a few of them, and they could reck him tbh. So its less seen as him being OP as him over coming challenges. 

I also think shadow's inhibitor rings are fine, I find them to be harsh reminders for reality I guess. 

That's nice, but what do any of those characters have to do with Sonic? 

And did I ever even say Sonic needs to be "overpowered?" I just simply pointed out that his place in the series puts him inherently on a higher tier than everyone else. This isn't a fucking comic book with an ensemble cast and a large scale plot, it's a simple ass story about a cocky blue hedgehog and his friends fighting against a mad scientist.

My whole point was saying is that there's no  reason (keyword) for Shadow to have as many powers as he does right now. I already pointed out the initial purpose his character served in Sonic Adventure 2, but afterward all of that was just kind of ignored. And no, him having all of those powers isn't teaching any "lesson" because Sonic still kicks his ass in games like Generations, so I'm left wondering what less you' think they're trying to teach.

[Shadowlax]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's nice, but what do any of those characters have to do with Sonic? 

To point out a character doesn't have to be the strongest to be genuinely interesting, which is what I feel a lot of the complaints about shadow being OP come from. 

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And did I ever even say Sonic needs to be "overpowered?" I just simply pointed out that his place in the series puts him inherently on a higher tier than everyone else.

It kind of doesn't? He's just kind of the guy who ends up beating the guy , but there are others who can infact beat whoever guy it is ussually. 

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This isn't a fucking comic book with an ensemble cast and a large scale plot, it's a simple ass story about a cocky blue hedgehog and his friends fighting against a mad scientist.

Yes and we are talking about the power levels about in these simple ass stories. Which is a thing that often happens in comic books, hence the comparison. That's how comparisons work, you find similarities and compare them. 

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My whole point was saying is that there's no  reason (keyword) for Shadow to have as many powers as he does right now. I already pointed out the initial purpose his character served in Sonic Adventure 2, but afterward all of that was just kind of ignored.

He was in several video games and had a whole character arc, and is featured in games to this day? Doesn't really seem like ignored to me, heck they are using " is shadow really a bad guy" as a trailer stinger so... yeah. 

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And no, him having all of those powers isn't teaching any "lesson" because Sonic still kicks his ass in games like Generations, so I'm left wondering what less you' think they're trying to teach.

He fights the sonic adventure 2 version of the character in a time paradox yes, and it is a fun lesson when they are used correctly. Like say sonic 06. Which infact houses the best version of his character

You seem incredibly upset at the idea of shadow being a strong , and sonic possibly not being the strongest, so you may need to calm down. I feel like you are getting upset about other characters being included in things, not in thread but in others , but characters having any sort of value when sonic name is on the box , and I feel like you are loosing the narrative. The main characters is sometimes not the strongest or the coolest or the most important.. Sometimes he has to work for things, and that's ok. 

[Sega DogTagz]

Its also worth pointing out that no less than half of Shadow's screen-time is devoted to either himself, or some proxy pointing out that Shadow is unbelievably powerful. In his earlier games, he can't go two seconds without shoving his title in someones face. Later, Mephilies spends an entire monologue telling us how Shadow is so powerful that the entire planet united against him in fear. Every manual has to mention his ability to match Sonic at his own game and thats in-between bouts of him tanking gunfire, single handedly turning the tide of the black arms vs humanity war and making light work of uber-tier characters like Silver.

Not only is Shadow a monster, but the game attempts to remind you of that fact at every possible turn. Its that kind of fatigue that leads some people to grow weary of it all and just label him OP. In the simplest terms, he is Sonic+++. Thats pretty OP by any stretch.

 

Personally, I don't consider him OP. While I do place him on the highest tier not reserved for Sonic, people seem to overlook the drawbacks of all that power. Shadow crashes in ways that other characters don't. In a sense, he's a glass cannon. (Its kinda odd considering he is a brick wall, but hear me out) When Shadow goes all out, it comes with a heavy price. When he's overdone it, he's come down with Amnesia. He gets burned out and stays that way longer. In Battle, it took the entire length of the game for him to recover his full power. Other characters recover much, much faster. Sure he has a ton of powers, but he isn't winning any wars of attrition. That's where Sonic has him beat.

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

To point out a character doesn't have to be the strongest to be genuinely interesting, which is what I feel a lot of the complaints about shadow being OP come from. 

It kind of doesn't? He's just kind of the guy who ends up beating the guy , but there are others who can infact beat whoever guy it is ussually. 

Yes and we are talking about the power levels about in these simple ass stories. Which is a thing that often happens in comic books, hence the comparison. That's how comparisons work, you find similarities and compare them. 

He was in several video games and had a whole character arc, and is featured in games to this day? Doesn't really seem like ignored to me, heck they are using " is shadow really a bad guy" as a trailer stinger so... yeah. 

He fights the sonic adventure 2 version of the character in a time paradox yes, and it is a fun lesson when they are used correctly. Like say sonic 06. Which infact houses the best version of his character

You seem incredibly upset at the idea of shadow being a strong , and sonic possibly not being the strongest, so you may need to calm down. I feel like you are getting upset about other characters being included in things, not in thread but in others , but characters having any sort of value when sonic name is on the box , and I feel like you are loosing the narrative. The main characters is sometimes not the strongest or the coolest or the most important.. Sometimes he has to work for things, and that's ok. 

I'd appreciate it if you didn't give these condescending remarks thank you very much. I don't really get how thought I'm getting worked up when my response was reasonable, but ok.

You...are not actually addressing my point though...at all. I point out the flaws in how Shadow's character has been handled, and the only response you give me is "Calm down bro" acting as if somehow I said something wrong by pointing this out. Your point on how the main character doesn't have to be the best is fine, but it has literally nothing to do with my original response. So I'm left wonder what exactly are you trying to convince me of that relates to my original point.

 

And lastly, I see you love picking specific parts of my post without actually addressing the whole thing so I'd also appreciate it if you didn't do that and just gave one big response rather than trying refute my individual points while ignoring the gist of what I'm trying to say.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'd appreciate it if you didn't give these condescending remarks thank you very much. I don't really get how thought I'm getting worked up when my response was reasonable, but ok.

I'm not trying to be condensing, you seemed... extremely upset and hostile. I'm legitimately urgining you to calm down. 

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You...are not actually addressing my point though...at all. I point out the flaws in how Shadow's character has been handled, and the only response you give me is "Calm down bro" acting as if somehow I said something wrong by pointing this out. Your point on how the main character doesn't have to be the best is fine, but it has literally nothing to do with my original response. So I'm left wonder what exactly are you trying to convince me of that relates to my original point.

Him having these powers are fine because it allows his character to be uniquely powerful, while adding some perspective to sonic and a lot of characters by being uniquely powerful he uses them in fun interesting ways. And in future could be used in fun interesting game mechanics. Also asking " why does this characters have all these powers" when he's not the only one who has powers. He shoots energy and can do time and space stuff, but blaze also has powers along with going fast, mainly fire, and silver while he can't go fast can produce enough telekensis to keep up with sonic, not to mention the idea of a character with the power to control kenitic energy in a world of sonic being so unbelievably OP its actually nuts. 

But to summarize

• They make him unique and intersting
• They make him play unique and interesting when used
• They make him an interesting fight for sonic when used
• He's not the only one with the ability to go fast and with powers 

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

And lastly, I see you love picking specific parts of my post without actually addressing the whole thing so I'd also appreciate it if you didn't do that and just gave one big response rather than trying refute my individual points while ignoring the gist of what I'm trying to say.

I'm not though

Also to get back to that point , I don't get your point. He has these powers to make him unqiue to give him some stuff unique to himself, but it seems like you just want him to be sonic. He has these powers to make him more interesting. 

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not trying to be condensing, you seemed... extremely upset and hostile. I'm legitimately urgining you to calm down. 

Well...I wasn't. I don't get how you thought my response was hostile, but I assure you that it takes a lot more than me talking on a video game forum to get me worked up.

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Him having these powers are fine because it allows his character to be uniquely powerful, while adding some perspective to sonic and a lot of characters by being uniquely powerful he uses them in fun interesting ways. And in future could be used in fun interesting game mechanics. Also asking " why does this characters have all these powers" when he's not the only one who has powers. He shoots energy and can do time and space stuff, but blaze also has powers along with going fast, mainly fire, and silver while he can't go fast can produce enough telekensis to keep up with sonic, not to mention the idea of a character with the power to control kenitic energy in a world of sonic being so unbelievably OP its actually nuts. 

But to summarize

• They make him unique and intersting
• They make him play unique and interesting when used
• They make him an interesting fight for sonic when used
• He's not the only one with the ability to go fast and with powers 

I'm not though

Also to get back to that point , I don't get your point. He has these powers to make him unqiue to give him some stuff unique to himself, but it seems like you just want him to be sonic. He has these powers to make him more interesting. 

I'll argue that they don't really make him any more interesting than he already was with just his personality and story. He was a popular character before they started adding all of these powers onto him, so what was the point? Did they think he needed more powers to be a better character or something?

In any case, I feel like the way his abilities are utilized haven't been the best either. Mostly because they're at their peak in games that are inherently poorly designed. So that already colors my perspective of them. I'll break it down.

Chaos Control

- It's his signature ability, so I'm not gonna rag on it too much. But in Sonic Adventure 2/Heroes, it's a time stop. In the case of Heroes, the entire level grinds to a halt until time moves again as most hazards don't activate while it's active. In his game, it literally let's you skip large portions of the level, but in most cases you have to progress and kill a specified number of enemies, so skipping the level is pointless. It's a bit useful in boss fights where it prevents the boss from moving while you wail on it, but it hasn't really been used in a way that makes the game fun to play.

Chaos Spear

- Ok, it's essentially an energy wave. But it's hardly utilized either. It's a 2P exclusive and a boss exclusive move in SA2. It's only exclusive to the final boss in his game, and it's literally useless in 06 since it only stuns the Enemy.

 Chaos Blast

- Breaks the flow pretty badly because you're forced to stop to use it.

 

But overall, I feel the problem with Shadow's abilities is that while they could make him a unique character, they're never utilized as such. There's also the fact that all of his abilities are offensive and suited to something to like a beat'em up or a third-person shooter, but Sonic is a movement based platforming series. If Shadow had his own series, sure but since he's confined to the main series, I feel his abilities are a bit out of place. 

Now granted, all of those abilities could make for a good boss fight but what happens if you actually had to implement him as a playable character? Blaze gets a pass since her abilities are related to her movement and she still plays like a character from this series while still being unique, similar to how Tails and Knuckles are in the Classic 2D games. Silver has only had one major playable appearance and hardly doubt they're ever going to consider using him again in a main role. Shadow might be in the same boat, but he's still a pretty recognized character so I'm gonna entertain the idea that he might be playable one day.

 

 

But the Tl;DR version is that I don't feel all of these extra abilities Shadow has really fit in line with the series design philosophy, or rather, they're not implemented in ways fit the series. They're more suited to a genre that's not Sonic, so because of that, they just feel really out of place and are just there to make him seem "cool and badass" I guess. And yes,  I did prefer him when he was just a Sonic clone because he was actually fun to play with when he was.

[Shadowlax]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Well...I wasn't. I don't get how you thought my response was hostile, but I assure you that it takes a lot more than me talking on a video game forum to get me worked up.

I'll argue that they don't really make him any more interesting than he already was with just his personality and story. He was a popular character before they started adding all of these powers onto him, so what was the point? Did they think he needed more powers to be a better character or something?

You don't, but there are a lot of people who like shadows powers. You not liking them, is totally fine, but understanding the need to make a popular syllable character unique to sell things is something outside of just something you like. 

Example: I don't like amy's hammer, I would rather like shadow she have super strength and there just be a mutation in " mobian" hedgehogs that caused that, but the hammer makes unique and visually defines her as well as compliments her personality. I don't have to like the thing, but I have to understand. It isn't just about gameplay utility, because these characters aren't just sold in games, they are also sold in other mediums, and this is problably going to increase over the next few years, so just because its not the most technically useful in a 3d sonic game... that's fine , they will use it in other places

 

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But the Tl;DR version is that I don't feel all of these extra abilities Shadow has really fit in line with the series design philosophy, or rather, they're not implemented in ways fit the series. They're more suited to a genre that's not Sonic, so because of that, they just feel really out of place and are just there to make him seem "cool and badass" I guess. And yes,  I did prefer him when he was just a Sonic clone because he was actually fun to play with when he was.

If you like boring clones, you do you. But I like his powers, and while I don't agree that it doesn't fit this series because you can easily incorporate the 3 powers and some of the stuff you missed like his rage mode, inhibitor rings, super strength ect into speed platforming game play.

However, I will semi agree I would much rather see him use things things in a game that isn't a sonic a traditional sonic game. Whether that be like a fighter situation or maybe a character action situation

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You don't, but there are a lot of people who like shadows powers. You not liking them, is totally fine, but understanding the need to make a popular syllable character unique to sell things is something outside of just something you like. 

Example: I don't like amy's hammer, I would rather like shadow she have super strength and there just be a mutation in " mobian" hedgehogs that caused that, but the hammer makes unique and visually defines her as well as compliments her personality. I don't have to like the thing, but I have to understand. It isn't just about gameplay utility, because these characters aren't just sold in games, they are also sold in other mediums, and this is problably going to increase over the next few years, so just because its not the most technically useful in a 3d sonic game... that's fine , they will use it in other places

 

If you like boring clones, you do you. But I like his powers, and while I don't agree that it doesn't fit this series because you can easily incorporate the 3 powers and some of the stuff you missed like his rage mode, inhibitor rings, super strength ect into speed platforming game play.

However, I will semi agree I would much rather see him use things things in a game that isn't a sonic a traditional sonic game. Whether that be like a fighter situation or maybe a character action situation

Its not that I inherently don't like his powers, but rather how they're used. Like in Sonic X, they're only there to let him wipe out armies of robots and curb-stomp Sonic with no effort. While in the comics, they're more balanced by how using them is dangerous to him and those around him and so he limits himself to his basic abilities unless he absolutely needs to bust them out. That latter is fine, the former is not.

And hey, I'd rather he'd be a clone than just being inherently unfun to play as. You probably can incorporate his powers in some way that doesn't compromise the spirit of it being a Sonic game (I actually came up with a concept before posting this), but they never have so as it stands, his powers aren't really interesting to me outside of just making him a powerful character which isn't even among one of the reasons I like him. I like him more for his personality than his power set if I'm quite honest.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its not that I inherently don't like his powers, but rather how they're used. Like in Sonic X, they're only there to let him wipe out armies of robots and curb-stomp Sonic with no effort. While in the comics, they're more balanced by how using them is dangerous to him and those around him and so he limits himself to his basic abilities unless he absolutely needs to bust them out. That latter is fine, the former is not.

And hey, I'd rather he'd be a clone than just being inherently unfun to play as. You probably can incorporate his powers in some way that doesn't compromise the spirit of it being a Sonic game (I actually came up with a concept before posting this), but they never have so as it stands, his powers aren't really interesting to me outside of just making him a powerful character which isn't even among one of the reasons I like him. I like him more for his personality than his power set if I'm quite honest.

It's funny considering that even taking out his Chaos based powers, the guy still has a ton of underused aspects of him that could easily help set him apart without making him ridiculously powerful. Exhibit A: His hovershoes as I mentioned in this status: https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=881602&type=status

And taking into consideration his powers, he could in theory hold his Chaos attacks in his hand and use it like a makeshift torch, thus allowing him to traverse dark areas without needing the torch (ala a level in Sonic 4), use it to charge technology that needed Chaos Energy, slow things down ala Bullet Time allowing him to execute far more precise platforming or dodge obstacles that are too fast to dodge otherwise, charge it up to do that big aura thing he did in 06 to barrel through enemies like a more powerful Boost...

Jeez when I put it like that, he's ridiculously versatile and powerful compared to almost anyone else except maybe Blaze.

[Salamander]

It's the underdog factor, plain and simple.  Most characters in the series, if they have "powers" at all, have abilities which look very narrow and restrained; Sonic is the fastest thing alive, Tails can use his tails to fly, Knuckles is very strong.  These powers are rarely ever even presented as being useful in a combat context, because Sonic is a platforming-based series rather than a combat-based one, so they actually end up looking rather modest even if rationally they could be used in ways that make them unbeatable, again because the player is rarely given the opportunity to use them that way.

And then there's Shadow, who has more powers than you can shake a stick at and which are consistently presented as trivialising most encounters Shadow is faced with.  Sure, Sonic could technically use some of the same abilities, but he pretty much never does, and with Super forms generally reserved for the finale these days then they're basically not a factor.  The result is that people remember Shadow as an extremely powerful character because that's the way the series sells him, and the series doesn't do the same thing for Sonic.

This tends to create an innate favouritism towards Sonic.  It's partly nostalgia, partly the fact that he's the title hero, but it is mainly that he is generally shown as being less powerful - and people do love an underdog.  When a powerful character wins a battle, it's not interesting; it's the expected result.  When there is no challenge, nobody cares.  But when a less powerful character wins a battle, it's against the odds, it's more difficult, and that makes it more satisfying.  People are generally predisposed to seeing victories by less powerful characters or forces; this is probably another reason, actually, why there have been more calls for Eggman to take the final boss role, because quite aside from his popularity and the nostalgia factor then after seeing him be trivialised by all sorts of monsters of the week it feels like more of a success for him to take the top spot.

It's likely that Shadow was made so powerful in the first place to make it more satisfying to defeat him; he's a force for other characters to react to, for other characters to be made more interesting.  That also extends to some of the battles he's been involved with in the comics.  Throw Shadow against anyone, and the baseline assumption is that Shadow will win; if it turns out to be an actual challenge, then that's more interesting even for Shadow fans than if he just instantly defeated his opponent easily.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, FFWF said:

 

This tends to create an innate favouritism towards Sonic.  It's partly nostalgia, partly the fact that he's the title hero, but it is mainly that he is generally shown as being less powerful - and people do love an underdog.  When a powerful character wins a battle, it's not interesting; it's the expected result.  When there is no challenge, nobody cares.  But when a less powerful character wins a battle, it's against the odds, it's more difficult, and that makes it more satisfying.  People are generally predisposed to seeing victories by less powerful characters or forces; this is probably another reason, actually, why there have been more calls for Eggman to take the final boss role, because quite aside from his popularity and the nostalgia factor then after seeing him be trivialised by all sorts of monsters of the week it feels like more of a success for him to take the top spot.

I think its created a " favoritism " towards sonic, Shadow is still for whatever reason extremely popular because one of the reasons is because he is, not just powerful a character that by nature but also a character who is powerful outside the context of sonic in a sense. We'll get to that in a second though

I don't think a powerful character winning isn't interesting, have you played DMC before, Dante literally runs though person after person, its what make the Virgil type fights interesting. Them winning all the time and getting all girls ever thats when that starts to get uninteresting, but having someone be powerful and just have a lopsided fight that lasts literal seconds can provide interesting things to the story for both characters. Its kind of my hope for forces... amonst a lot of other hopes, mostly its not being bad. But it seems pretty clear that that infnite is just ripping people from space time, so there could legit just be two shadow's running around, and I would like if now shadow had grown so powerfl, he beats sonic adventure 2 shadow i'm presuming with little to no effort. That communicates the strength of the character now, and provides an interesting context. 

As for the early point I made, shadow is also a powerful character, outside of the context of the thing he's in, which is weird. Take the forces bad guy trailer,  they tried to go " hey look at this new bad guy isn't he cool, we made a new trailer for him he has his own theme sonic" and a lot of the reaction has been " he looks fucking dumb, why's shadow a badguy" . This could change upon release, but putting him beside characters you want to look cool, like back in soinc 06 tends to have the opposite effect. So he is also effectively powerful in the context of sonic as a brand along with inside the brand itself. 

The edge meta is real

3 hours ago, FFWF said:

It's likely that Shadow was made so powerful in the first place to make it more satisfying to defeat him; he's a force for other characters to react to, for other characters to be made more interesting.  That also extends to some of the battles he's been involved with in the comics.  Throw Shadow against anyone, and the baseline assumption is that Shadow will win; if it turns out to be an actual challenge, then that's more interesting even for Shadow fans than if he just instantly defeated his opponent easily.

He actually does defeat opponent instantly and its actually quite funny. I would like to see it more often. 

 

6 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its not that I inherently don't like his powers, but rather how they're used. Like in Sonic X, they're only there to let him wipe out armies of robots and curb-stomp Sonic with no effort. While in the comics, they're more balanced by how using them is dangerous to him and those around him and so he limits himself to his basic abilities unless he absolutely needs to bust them out. That latter is fine, the former is not.

And hey, I'd rather he'd be a clone than just being inherently unfun to play as. You probably can incorporate his powers in some way that doesn't compromise the spirit of it being a Sonic game (I actually came up with a concept before posting this), but they never have so as it stands, his powers aren't really interesting to me outside of just making him a powerful character which isn't even among one of the reasons I like him. I like him more for his personality than his power set if I'm quite honest.

I also like his personality, but he's more than that. He's a character, that's in a kind of action kid series, and he needs powers and things to differences himself, its apart of character design. These things help sell him to people, and they have been working for years. 

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I also like his personality, but he's more than that. He's a character, that's in a kind of action kid series, and he needs powers and things to differences himself, its apart of character design. These things help sell him to people, and they have been working for years. 

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like the type of powers they've given him only really appeal to hardcore 13 year old Shonen Anime nerds, ya know the ones that try to shoehorn stuff like Dragon Ball Z into everything because it's "cool". Those were a particular vocal subset of Shadow fans about 11 years ago when he was still a prominent figure.

It just feels...cringe to me. And I grew up in that era and was influenced by it to an extent.

[Shadowlax]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like the type of powers they've given him only really appeal to hardcore 13 year old Shonen Anime nerds, ya know the ones that try to shoehorn stuff like Dragon Ball Z into everything because it's "cool". Those were a particular vocal subset of Shadow fans about 11 years ago when he was still a prominent figure.

Eh, or people who like dumb cool shit. Like me, I like DMC and that game is filled with over powered fuckery, but its fun. 

Sometimes things are cool and fun

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It just feels...cringe to me. And I grew up in that era and was influenced by it to an extent.

if you feel need to cringe, that's on you. To use your own example, I watch DBZ super now, its dumb there is a form called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but that's ok because its a fun time. Sometimes its ok to have fun with something and make it crazy, not everything needs to be restricted to " not cringe" because everything is " cringy" to someone