Concepts/Things In Mania You Dislike

[Mad Convoy]

10 minutes ago, Jango said:

There, I was being annoying, I admit and I'm sorry, that was kinda of an ass. No more condescending posts from me. I guess Mania gets praise enough, a few critics wouldn't hurt. It's just... IDK, we got a lot of Sonic games before that tried to capture the essence of the old games, but they always failed someway somehow, be it the physics, the music, the aesthetics... Then, when we finally get a game that does the franchise's justice, I still read some people saying things like the "game lacks creativity and identity" or "the physics are far from perfect"... I can't help but get confused, this game, Mania, needs to be appreciated, it's as high as this franchise got in ages. It's not me saying, it's not me being a fanboy, it's a bunch of people all around the gaming industry confirming it.

To address your confusion... I for example don't really like playing Classic Sonic games, so it didn't take long for the game to lose me (and well, it only had me at all because it looked a lot like Sonic CD, the one Classic Sonic game I actually enjoy playing). That isn't the same as not appreciating Mania-- its just that I'm not gonna lie and say that I love everything and Mania is a personal high for me in terms of Sonic when that isn't remotely true, and as a fan I do have the right to express that and still be treated with respect. Just like you're not gonna lie that you do consider Mania to be a personal high for you in terms of Sonic and everything Sonic games should strive for, and as a fan you do have the right to express that and still be treated with respect.

We don't have to agree on that matter, but that isn't the same as people not appreciating Mania. Its just that they noticed some faults that affected their playthrough of the game and felt the need to highlight or note them-- not just a few critics, issues with stuff like the special stages are extremely widespread and common, so its important to make that known so any Mania 2 or whatever can rectify it before the problem has the chance to metastasize in future games.

And well, that's probably the point of this topic. Get a basic idea of Mania's issues together so that we can discuss how they can be improved the next time around.

[Tara]

This may seem petty to talk about now but one thing I don't like about Mania is its initial release period.  We knock Sega for its inclusion of Denuvo DRM and that's perfectly fair, but that isn't even the only problem with the game.  At launch the game was riddled with bugs that impacted core features of the game.  Black screens, crashes, just painfully frustrating things.  It took me three times just to clear Flying Battery as Tails because the game would fail when coming out of special stages.

I've heard Denuvo causes performance issues in games, but afaik that is a result of memory usage, which lowers framerate and requests more resources for the game to operate, which I don't think is what's causing it.  And many people when I talk about this will point out that the game was developed by independent, freelance devs and thus are more prone to problems.  I don't think that's true, and I also don't believe in treating indie devs as different than big publishers when it comes to core functionality.  Anyway, it's beyond the point because I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.  I don't know why the game was released as it was, but I know that many of us, myself included, forgave it because the base game was solid.

And I guess that is my problem.  If we weren't already starved for good Sonic content, this would never be accepted.  Even though I love Mania, I feel it validated the sort of "release first, patch later" strategy that games have been pulling for awhile now.  Again, I'm not saying it's any one entity's fault.  Nor am I saying this to undermine Sonic Mania as an achievement, but I don't personally feel it was ready for release when it was released, even after being delayed once.

I could be mistaken in some of my claims, and if I am feel free to let me know.  I'm just saying that it did succeed at bringing down what could have been a fantastic experience to me.  Not entirely, but enough that I need a break from Flying Battery for another decade.

[Celestia]

24 minutes ago, Jango said:

There, I was being annoying, I admit and I'm sorry, that was kinda of an ass. No more condescending posts from me. I guess Mania gets praise enough, a few critics wouldn't hurt. It's just... IDK, we got a lot of Sonic games before that tried to capture the essence of the old games, but they always failed someway somehow, be it the physics, the music, the aesthetics... Then, when we finally get a game that does the franchise's justice, I still read some people saying things like the "game lacks creativity and identity" or "the physics are far from perfect"... I can't help but get confused, this game, Mania, needs to be appreciated, it's as high as this franchise got in ages. It's not me saying, it's not me being a fanboy, it's a bunch of people all around the gaming industry.

The way I see it--and I've said this in the past when people were complaining about people disliking Forces--something that a majority of fans have in common is that we want the series to be the best it can be. It's what fans in any fanbase want, really. Even people who absolutely love Mania may look at it critically, in the hopes that any issues they may have with it will be addressed in future games.

Obviously, not all criticism is necessarily "right" and it especially isn't always in good faith (there are definitely people who are petty about this stuff), but this is where we can loop things back around. When I read Iko's post most of what I saw was criticisms I've seen brought up before--again, even by people who love the game. You obviously don't need to agree with any of it, but when some complaints are common enough it might be worth at least hearing 'em out?

 

 

Y'know I still really hate how the bonus stages in this game are useless aside from the medals to unlock stuff. Cool stuff, but still. If you could get shields and maybe keep [a fraction of, maybe?] your Rings or something that'd be nice. Basically, once I got perfects in every bonus stage there was no reason to keep hopping back in there, and accidentally hopping into one is the worst. Okay, not the worst, but it's mildly frustrating, and I won't stand for that! It's a shame because I love Blue Spheres, just not enough to want to play it without some sort of reward if it's doubling as a bonus game.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

6 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Y'know I still really hate how the bonus stages in this game are useless aside from the medals to unlock stuff. Cool stuff, but still. If you could get shields and maybe keep [a fraction of, maybe?] your Rings or something that'd be nice. Basically, once I got perfects in every bonus stage there was no reason to keep hopping back in there, and accidentally hopping into one is the worst. Okay, not the worst, but it's mildly frustrating, and I won't stand for that! It's a shame because I love Blue Spheres, just not enough to want to play it without some sort of reward if it's doubling as a bonus game.

Admittedly, I can't remember much of S3&K's stages but for this game, I think my major issue with them was oversaturation. I went for 100%ing Mania, and eventually did by getting all the gold medals and trophies and such, but these stages were a massive pain, and I can easily explain why. You get little to no time to actually focus on them and improve at a single one. It feels like something that should majorly be a trial and error type thing where you learn the correct routes and such to take, but because of the random nature of the stages and their selection, it largely means that once you fail one stage, you go onto another one and by the time that stage loops back around, you will likely not remember much of the routes and paths you took in that stage.

It got so bad that in order to make headway, I had to start looking up YouTube walkthroughs in order to see the stages' correct routes and actually keep them in mind for when the special stage looped back around again. It's easily one of the most frustrating parts of the game and have made me downright despise Blue Spheres in general.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

As I said in another topic, I don't like that Hyper Knuckles and Super Tails didn't get a proper final battle against Heavy King and Eggman. It's honestly another example of lost potential because they were trying to stick to the formula in S3&K by having Sonic be the only canon character to go Super and fight Eggman. Even if it was a non-canon battle, it would be been nice to see.

Potential for what, though? Most likely they'd have the exact same boss.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Potential for what, though? Most likely they'd have the exact same boss.

I should've clarified that somewhat that they could've changed it slightly depending on the attributes of a given character like Knuckles' reduced jumping, but on top of the fact none of the other bosses were changed to account for things like that, and on top of that, there isn't much potential as a whole, I should've been more clear.

Regardless however, I still would've preferred given them a non-canon battle for getting the Chaos Emeralds like Sonic has, even if it is non-canon. I don't really see why it isn't a case unless you use cheats other than Sonic 2 having Sonic alone VS Eggman and Sonic 3 and Knuckles having Doomsday Zone be a Sonic-exclusive battle.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, SaberX said:

-Metallic Madness style of music is terrible.

I can tolerate a lot of things but this opinion is like running a cheese grater over my soul.

Anyway to throw a few quick criticisms out there, a lot of the bosses kinda suck, either because they rely on gimmicks that don't really work well, because they involve too much waiting for an opening, or because they just don't take advantage of anything "Sonicy" and reduce the gameplay to the most basic platforming elements, which Sonic isn't actually that good at. Also I've never liked blue sphere much to start with, but the problem's exacerbated by how many stages of it there are, and by there being no reason to replay them once you've got all gold medals.

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, JezMM said:

For what it's worth I kinda get where they're coming from with the drop dash feeling better in Forces, but I think that comes from the fact that it makes you feel like a cool dude to use it effectively in that game (compared to just navigating the stages in Sonic's vanilla state which feels like garbage).  It kind of tricks you into feeling like you're playing a proper 2D Sonic game because it operates in the same basic way as it does in Mania AND you're in control of it.  Meanwhile when Classic Sonic is normally doing "physics" stuff in Forces, it's being heavily scripted and you may not even be in control at all.

 

One point I will disagree on is the cartooneyness of Oil Ocean's Act 1 boss not fitting in with Classic Sonic aesthetic.

Have you seen these guys:

Heck have you seen THIS guy

 

The difference is, is that the boss it was based on was a lot more intimidating with glassy optics rather than bog-standard googly eyes like a common Badnik. No buck teeth either. This gave the original mini bosses (even many of Mania’s) more stature compared to the grunt laborers. 

 

On topic, the thing I can barely stand about Mania is the silly tone. That’s why I didn’t buy it on release, and i’ll Probably wait on it for a while longer. Lack of playable Amy also hurts. 

[Jango]

"Metallic Madness music is terrible"...? DUDE BUT THAT SAX? C'mooooon lol

@Mad Convoy and @Celestia Absolutely, I agree with both of you. And I get the critics, I have my share aswell, like the Bonus Stage's only reward being medals instead of rings, shields, lifes and what-not like Sonic 3. But some critics are just "what?", like the physics and music. We finally get the 1:1 physics (perhaps even more precise than ever) and a soundtrack that doesn't just shamefully use the Genesis synths and soundfonts and call itself "retro".

I mean sure, Oil Ocean's bosses do suck, that's a fair critic. Some zones missing transitions? Also fair. But the physics? C'mon.

[Sega DogTagz]

I can name a few things that rubbed me the wrong way. The first two are fairly obvious and I'm sure have been harped on to death by now, but they are at the head of the line for a reason.

Zone Selection. Seriously bro? I said it when we got our first look at GHZ and CPZ and I'll say it again now. It doesn't really matter how refreshing and cool those two remix stages turned out to be, in my eyes its an absolute tragedy that on the heels of Generations, and the eve of Forces, those stages didn't get blacklisted by the Mania team. I honestly cant wrap my head how that wasn't the first thing brought up in the initial brainstorming session. Its neigh unforgivable and made even worse by the fact that it toys with our heartstrings. Those of us who were really looking forward to stages like Mystic Cave getting a fresh coat of paint were instead given CPZ. AGAIN. At this point its a slap in the face. Keep raising our hopes and then curbstomping them back into oblivion.

Hit Box. Pinching was a known problem in the originals. Every once in a while you take a death while your pushing your way through a moving puzzle, and you just cant shake the feeling that you made it through in time to avoid that particular fate. Mania made that worse by a factor of ten. Somehow.

Special Stage. First off, I love the special stages. The UFO catch is glorious and blue sphere is great in moderation. But that's just the problem. There is no moderation. I swear if I boot up a new save file I can spend 80% of my time in the first few zone doing nothing but special stages and spend next to no time in the zones themselves. They are so obtrusive and flow breaking that you'd think the special stages were the core game. To make matters worse, they lowered the ring cap to trigger a lamppost down to 30. Why? All that does is make matters worse. I would have welcomed a cheap enemy or two right in front of a lamp-post just so I wouldn't have to be constantly reminded that I was actively avoiding a section of the game to continue playing the game I came in the door for... lol sounds like Unleahsed and Adventure's problems all over again. Whodathunkit?

Aside from that, almost all of the rest of Mania comes up roses. Even gives you MeanBeanMachine to play on the side. I hope that is a trend the continues. Put a little arcade room in each future title. Doesn't even have to be the whole game. Just upload Studiopolis Act 1 and 2 followed up with a link the PSN store. It'd be great.

[expansivelovestories]

30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Anyway to throw a few quick criticisms out there, a lot of the bosses kinda suck, either because they rely on gimmicks that don't really work well, because they involve too much waiting for an opening, or because they just don't take advantage of anything "Sonicy" and reduce the gameplay to the most basic platforming elements, which Sonic isn't actually that good at.

I haven't yet been able to play firsthand; but, I have seen the bosses in videos, and I think that in some ways, there is just this sense of a reminder that the original trilogy's boss (and eventually miniboss) design is unforgettably high level!   

The first game's zenlike simplicity remains especially impressive; but then of course also the many inventive, head on approaches by Eggman in Sonic 2, and the true tour de force seen throughout Sonic 3 & Knuckles!!  

I think it is a good thing that there is an area of 2D Sonic in which the Mania team can improve; some day, the bosses from their first game will also be surprising in contrast to those in their second and third games!  It is one area where room for improvement will feel natural and be exciting for the new and old fans, as well as the team themselves!  

[BlueFlare]

1 hour ago, SaberX said:

 

- Not a fan at all of Metallic Madness. Who am I kidding? I don't like that freaking stage and I hope it never comes back...its the only stage in the game that I do not replay it.

-Metallic Madness style of music is terrible. At least the stage 2 is less toxic.

 

I know it's all about personal preference but heck I loved Metallic Madness and its music: "I'm the Evil Doctor with rad genius and bad minions.... I'm iconic, with my bionic animatronics I'll finally catch the hedgehog they call Sonic..." and so on. That second act is song is just so fun. I wish MMZ had a more drastic makeover than just being very similar looking to the original level. I still think that Chemical Plant Act 2 was the best makeover of all classic levels.

[Mad Convoy]

45 minutes ago, Jango said:

"Metallic Madness music is terrible"...? DUDE BUT THAT SAX? C'mooooon lol

@Mad Convoy and @Celestia Absolutely, I agree with both of you. And I get the critics, I have my share aswell, like the Bonus Stage's only reward being medals instead of rings, shields, lifes and what-not like Sonic 3. But some critics are just "what?", like the physics and music. We finally get the 1:1 physics (perhaps even more precise than ever) and a soundtrack that doesn't just shamefully use the Genesis synths and soundfonts and call itself "retro".

I mean sure, Oil Ocean's bosses do suck, that's a fair critic. Some zones missing transitions? Also fair. But the physics? C'mon.

Perhaps from your perspective, but people's playstyles and tastes are different.

For example, perhaps you think Mania's physics are perfection. Obviously the game has to have really good physics for you to think that. But that's also going to be influenced largely by how well they can accomodate your style of play, because good physics only get you so far if they make it too difficult or tedious to play the game in the way that you want to play it. For me, while its by no means a bad implementation, I kinda prefer Sonic CD's physics. In CD, they're quirky, but once you figure out their quirks, you can do all sorts of fun maneuvers that most other Classic games don't really let you pull off well. CD's physics are generally agreed by the public to be the worst of the Classic Sonic games's due to being loose and quirky in a bad way, but for whatever reason it works really well for me in a way that other Classic-styled games don't quite match up. So if I criticize Classic games for having physics that are a tad bit rigid or off, its not to say that they failed to achieve anything of note and worth or degrade their positive aspects. Its that... well, I found them a tad bit rigid or off and it affected my experience enough for me to want to bring it up.

And don't even get me started on music. That is a whole 'nother level of subjectivity right there. You may be surprised to hear, for example, that some people actually really like Genesis synths and soundfonts on songs that are done Modern style, as they do have a good amount of acid and the Modern stylings have less technical limitations to emulate than Genesis stylings. And just because its got a better soundtrack than Sonic 4 doesn't mean that its above criticism, in part because that is really not a hard thing to get at all.

I hope I've at least explained it well enough to answer that "what?" questions you've been having.

[Iko]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

"Metallic Madness music is terrible"...? DUDE BUT THAT SAX? C'mooooon lol

@Mad Convoy and @Celestia Absolutely, I agree with both of you. And I get the critics, I have my share aswell, like the Bonus Stage's only reward being medals instead of rings, shields, lifes and what-not like Sonic 3. But some critics are just "what?", like the physics and music. We finally get the 1:1 physics (perhaps even more precise than ever) and a soundtrack that doesn't just shamefully use the Genesis synths and soundfonts and call itself "retro".

I mean sure, Oil Ocean's bosses do suck, that's a fair critic. Some zones missing transitions? Also fair. But the physics? C'mon.

It wasn't my intention to cause all this.

I'm not saying the game is trash, I said that I kinda enjoyed it, but not completely, and by the way I have critics for every Sonic game, even my favorites have stuff that I dislike.

My critics are based on my personal experience and my opinion, you are free to disagree and that's just fine.

About the 1:1 physics, that's the point... I mean, I like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I like Sonic 1 8 bit as well, but I think that a game that comes out in 2017/2018 should have more advanced and more fluid physics... the game feels like if it was still on the Genesis, that's a good thing in a way, considering the horrible physics of many modern Sonic games, but compared to modern gaming in general, I would expect something more... I don't know, there are many little things, like the speed cap when you run...

4 hours ago, JezMM said:

For what it's worth I kinda get where they're coming from with the drop dash feeling better in Forces, but I think that comes from the fact that it makes you feel like a cool dude to use it effectively in that game (compared to just navigating the stages in Sonic's vanilla state which feels like garbage).  It kind of tricks you into feeling like you're playing a proper 2D Sonic game because it operates in the same basic way as it does in Mania AND you're in control of it.  Meanwhile when Classic Sonic is normally doing "physics" stuff in Forces, it's being heavily scripted and you may not even be in control at all.

 

One point I will disagree on is the cartooneyness of Oil Ocean's Act 1 boss not fitting in with Classic Sonic aesthetic.

Have you seen these guys:

Heck have you seen THIS guy

 

The thing about drop-dash is just a matter of feedback, in Sonic Mania I often avoid using it because I feel like a spindash just works better, and you have more control over it. It also seems to not take care of your momentum (I'm not sure about this, just my impression), I mean, that it pushes you with the same force reguardless of the speed/momentum, and I have the impression that sometimes it makes me go slower than I should; I should test it more to see if it's actually this the problem or what.

About the boss of Oil Ocean act 1, Good point... though those renders are from Sonic Lost World I think... probably it's a matter of details, in the Genesis games those badniks have smaller sprites and everything is pixelated, so you don't really notice how simple their design is; when you do a big badnik without increasing the level of details, you start to notice it, and that's the problem of Sonic Lost World too (anyway Sonic Lost Wolrd even simplified some classic badnik's designs, removing bolts and stuff).

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Iko said:

About the 1:1 physics, that's the point... I mean, I like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I like Sonic 1 8 bit as well, but I think that a game that comes out in 2017/2018 should have more advanced and more fluid physics... the game feels like if it was still on the Genesis, that's a good thing in a way, considering the horrible physics of many modern Sonic games, but compared to modern gaming in general, I would expect something more... I don't know, there are many little things, like the speed cap when you run...

What exactly do you think should be different? I'm not really sure how you could make the physics more fluid, and "more advanced" is vague and not necessarily better.

[Iko]

@DiogenesWhat I think about the physics is mostly a matter of feedback and impressions. I don't know what specifically causes me to think that, I should do a very in depth analisis of the gameplay that's something that requires time and I can't really reply just now.

I can give you an example of something that Mania fixed though (to be honest, Generations 3DS fixed this even before): in both the Classics and the Advance games, when you are rolling and jump, you can't move the character anymore until you land. This is hard to notice, but sometimes it happens that you want to climb a platform, you jump out from rolling, hit the edge and, well, you jump higher than the platform but you can't land on it because the game blocks you from moving Sonic horizontally until you land; Sonic 3 used the insta-shield as a workaround for this but that was not really a fancy way to solve the problem. In Mania (and Generations 3DS), you are finally able to control Sonic even in those situations.

What I'd like is more of those fixes, more of those upgrades.

How the game manages the speed caps, how some moves don't take momentum into account (flame shield dash for example), and especially the gameplay of the other playable characters, such as Knuckles' slow landing animation and slow climbing, the way how Tails flies that's very time consuming, and other stuff (that's more about moveset than physics).

Fixing the thing that jumping slighty slows you down already would make the gameplay way more enjoyable for me.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

6 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Blue Spheres

They are really bad here. 3K was a burn problematic with them but Mania almost tripled the issues of blue Sphere usages. I can play with them at any time in 3K and they are plenty there so why add so many here? Padding? Nostalgia?

I dunno man..Mania made me burnt out with its own game much faster than what normally good sonic games do to me. 

[Iko]

3 hours ago, SaberX said:

Insta-shiled is not a work-around in the psychics in any way. Is supposed to be an ability to give Sonic more range when spin jumps and allows to hit enemies without putting him in much of danger.

Not sure what exactly you want with Tails flight and Knuckles climb. You want to press one button and fly all the way up?

I think that Tails' flight should be redesigned so that you aren't forced to slowly land each time you fly; they did it with Cream in the Advance games, when you press the attack button while flying, she will drop with regular gravity. This solution requires a different button (attack button), if you want to keep it all with one button like in Sonic Mania, a different solution must be found, but I'm sure there is one.

The Insta-shield has 3 functions, the one you explained is one of the functions, the second is to give Sonic a short time of invincibility, and the third function is to gain back control over Sonic when jumping out from a roll. Almost nobody knows about this third function but that's what I was refering to.

In the advance games you can get a similar result by doing an air dash, by double tapping the direction.

In Mania, this is fixed and these solutions are not needed, you can always move Sonic, even jumping out from a roll.

[Iko]

10 hours ago, SaberX said:

Thats supposed to be a drawback. No advance series comparisons, since they did no good to the series.

Insta-shield doesnt give invincibilty. Your third function doesnt exist.

Since this is kinda off topic, I think I won't continue this discussion any futher, but I want to link a source that confirms what I said, for the sake of pointing out that I'm not lying.

http://info.sonicretro.org/Insta-Shield

Quote

The Insta-Shield, known as the Double Spin Attack (W回転アタック) in Japan and the Twin-Spin Attack in Sonic Generations, is a special move first used by Sonic in Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Jumping then pressing the jump button again while in midair generates a brief flash that extends Sonic's attack radius and renders him temporarily invincible. This attack is useful for attacking bosses slightly out of range and spiked enemies, like Orbinauts. No character but Sonic is able to use this technique.

The move reappeared in the Sonic Advance series. It is not used in any 3D games, due to the fact the "jump, then press jump again while in midair" move was changed to the Jump Dash, or if enemies/items are nearby, the Homing Attack.

It is unlockable in Sonic Mania by getting at least six medals in the Bonus Stage. It can be used in "No Save" mode by toggling Sonic's ability in the secrets menu, replacing the Drop Dash.

In the classic Sonic games, if Sonic jumps from a roll, he'll be unable to change his jump direction and speed. Using the move, however, makes him regain control of the jump. This also happens with Super Sonic, despite the fact that the move itself doesn't actually trigger while Super.

 

[Wraith]

I've never actually known about that little quirk as many times as I've played that game so that's actually interesting.