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So are Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations not considered good games now?

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Gens remains one of my favorite 3D Sonic games due to how fun it is for me to replay nearly all of its levels, and I revisit it from time to time more often than other 3D games. I can't say the same for Colors, which I liked at first but in recent memory I couldn't stand playing most of it.

The 2D-ness and focus on wisps doesn't bug me quite as much as it does most people (plus it's nice that once you unlock Super Sonic, you can play through the game without wisps), but zones are six acts each and most of them are short and gimmicky, which I hate.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

It isn't that Colors and Generations are suddenly no longer good; But a lot of their praise came from how good they were compared to the trash Sonic Team was churning out before. I do think they both still hold up on their own merits, even without comparing them favorably to their predecessors, but... to put it simply, Colors and Generations are merely good, while Mania is great. 

I think that's what's got people so excited for Mania in comparison to these games: As good as Colors/Generations were, they weren't good enough to grab worldwide attention and shatter peoples' negative perception of the series. It was too little, too late, and the franchise needed something to really win back the crowd, which - based on its commercial and critical success - we can safely say has been fulfilled with Mania.

thankyouthankyouthankyou

I've been saying this for a while. Colours and Generations were the first Sonic games to come along in years that weren't absolutely terrible (ala all of '06) or decent in parts whilst being marred by some truly stupid and overbearing elements (ala the Werehog in the otherwise mostly serviceable Unleashed). They were decent games that should have signalled some sort of return to form for Sonic. But they didn't. As quickly as those two games came, they were gone and we got another 5 or 6 six years of trash that included another Sonic 4, Lost World and three Boom games. Two years of good games, sandwiched between at least five years of bad games either side.

Roll on 2017 and we're finally getting two new Sonic games. Mania has already proven itself to be one of the greatest Sonic games of all time and faithfully expands on the Classic series. They took something that was already brilliant and made it better. The nostalgia involved is one of many key elements that makes the game what it is. And then we have Forces. After the failure of every other Sonic game released after Generations until Mania, Forces shows SEGA and Sonic Team backpedalling as quickly as they possibly can to try and save face. Lost World got a middling reception at best, and Boom took the series back to the lows of 2005/6. They're attempting to recreate Generations, but aren't aware of why it was well-received in the first place, and even more crucially haven't made an effort to actively improve it. In the face of Mania, the Classic aspects of Forces look particularly bad. 

Colours and Generations were only stepping-stones. They showed promise that quickly dwindled and things haven't been good since. I can remember, way back in 2010, describing Colours as "the worst good Sonic game". Perhaps that's not the best way of putting it, but it does get the point across that it never reached the heights of the better games that came in the early years. Generations didn't improve much, and six years of regression later we're back in the same spot, except we also have Mania which is truly great. The failed potential acts against the games. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

thankyouthankyouthankyou

I've been saying this for a while. Colours and Generations were the first Sonic games to come along in years that weren't absolutely terrible (ala all of '06) or decent in parts whilst being marred by some truly stupid and overbearing elements (ala the Werehog in the otherwise mostly serviceable Unleashed). They were decent games that should have signalled some sort of return to form for Sonic. But they didn't. As quickly as those two games came, they were gone and we got another 5 or 6 six years of trash that included another Sonic 4, Lost World and three Boom games. Two years of good games, sandwiched between at least five years of bad games either side.

Roll on 2017 and we're finally getting two new Sonic games. Mania has already proven itself to be one of the greatest Sonic games of all time and faithfully expands on the Classic series. They took something that was already brilliant and made it better. The nostalgia involved is one of many key elements that makes the game what it is. And then we have Forces. After the failure of every other Sonic game released after Generations until Mania, Forces shows SEGA and Sonic Team backpedalling as quickly as they possibly can to try and save face. Lost World got a middling reception at best, and Boom took the series back to the lows of 2005/6. They're attempting to recreate Generations, but aren't aware of why it was well-received in the first place, and even more crucially haven't made an effort to actively improve it. In the face of Mania, the Classic aspects of Forces look particularly bad. 

Colours and Generations were only stepping-stones. They showed promise that quickly dwindled and things haven't been good since. I can remember, way back in 2010, describing Colours as "the worst good Sonic game". Perhaps that's not the best way of putting it, but it does get the point across that it never reached the heights of the better games that came in the early years. Generations didn't improve much, and six years of regression later we're back in the same spot, except we also have Mania which is truly great. The failed potential acts against the games. 

This is...actually a good way of putting it.

It's not that Colors or Gens suddenly became terrible, but Sonic Team kind of pissed away all of good will they earned with it by releasing Lost World and then the Boom games right after. When Colors and Gens came out, while they weren't amazing, they did give the feeling that Sonic Team were gradually improving themselves. Not only did they regress hard, they're basically going full damage control with Forces by trying to cram as many elements that appealed to everyone as possible.

Mania is different because it has quite a few things going for it that Forces does not.

- It's building up on games that already have an amazing reputation. and are generally considered great  games in their own right.

- There's an attempt at actually making a good game in Mania rather than simply making something to pacify the audience. (Though Mania has a lot of Nostalgia pandering, so it can be accused of this too. But it's still a good game minus that)

- It's coming out after 6 years of subpar games, similar to Colors. 

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Sonic Mania has not decreased my enjoyment of games like Generations, Colors, Rush series, and Advance series, even if Mania is fantastic. If anything, it's made me look back at Sonic 2 and S3&K and made me remember how some of the levels weren't designed the greatest. I don't think it's fair to look at the newer games and say they suck because they aren't like the classics because they aren't trying to be, they're trying to be something different. 

I can also see Modern fans taking shots at Mania too by saying it's mostly rehashed stages and doesn't do anything new. To that I say, sometimes a game doesn't have to innovate or do something totally new to be great. Sometimes it just has to perfect an already existing formula, which Mania does IMO. 

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I've only played the 3DS version of Sonic Generations which I enjoyed.

As far as Sonic Colors goes I never really thought that it was a good game. It felt way too safe to me. Sonic only, lighty sillyer story, final destination only. It had it's moments Planet Wisp was a good level, but all in all it's not a Sonic game that I find myself really wanting to replay. I often find my self going back and replaying Sonic Adventure 1&2, and Shadow the Hedgehog over Colors.

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I've been with this series since the beginning and I don't like this "selective memory" some reviewers seem to have with this series...I remember Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 being considered among the best games in the series and now some are saying they're "ehhhh..." or just okay.  I've played those games and they haven't changed.  When people say a "game hasn't aged well" I don't think that's a fair criticism because if a game was good then, it should be good now.  A game doesn't really age...it's an artificial creation that is essentially immortal and defies age like other forms of art like books and movies.  Sure,  like those other forms, they can be buried or forgotten but they still exist in some form and their impact is remembered through history.  Sonic Adventure was the first true 3D game in the series that continued the main narrative (Knuckles' history was expanded upon and Sonic and co. got a makeover while getting a greater look at their world) and had some of the best gameplay and soundtrack in the series.   Heck, Sonic Adventure 2 went back to the "classic formula" somewhat featuring no overworld but still introducing new concepts and more fine tuned gameplay.   That's why a lot of fans are clamoring for Adventure 3.

However, they aren't perfect games and I can see that.  The classic games however I would argue have their own problems just as the 3D games do...I mean, look at Mania.  While receiving very positive feedback the game was released with glitches that were somewhat commonplace for people.  The same has happened with the classics...I've had times in Angel Island where I'd go through a tunnel in spindash form and get stuck or in Sonic 2, I would just fall through the floor in Chemical Plant(that only happened a few times though but it was always Act 1).  I had a similar problem in Mania where I actually beat Robotnik but I died anyway!  There's another instance where the music will suddenly just turn off and only the sound effects can be heard.    Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2's worst issues for me were the camera angles would sometimes impede gameplay but they never became that intrusive that it completely bogged the game down for me.  I just wish reviewers would focus their game on the current Sonic game and not use it as an excuse to sucker punch the 3D games every chance they get.  Too many reviews I've watched on Youtube tended to do that to varying degrees.    

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20 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

When people say a "game hasn't aged well" I don't think that's a fair criticism because if a game was good then, it should be good now.  A game doesn't really age...it's an artificial creation that is essentially immortal and defies age like other forms of art like books and movies.

It's gaming that changed, not the game. We have different standards for what we consider good quality now that are different than they were back in the 90s or even the aughts. For a (really) extreme example consider the year 2000 FPS Alien: Resurrection for PlayStation. Slammed by Gamespot for it's really backwards control scheme. To quote the review: "The game's control setup is its most terrifying element. The left analog stick moves you forward, back, and strafes right and left, while the right analog stick turns you and can be used to look up and down."

Those terrifying controls sound familiar? It's the controls for literally every modern FPS.

As this control scheme became more accepted by the gaming public, more archaic schemes of control like Doom or Quake (on console at least) would be looked back on with more relief that we ever managed to move past something so ancient. "left & right TURNS? You had to hold a button to STRAFE? How ever did they manage?"

I'm simply stating the case for why a game could "age" poorly for some. Personally I have a lot of fun playing the Sonic Adventure games regardless of them being nearly 19 years old at this point.

P.S. That Gamespot review ends with "Fans of console first-person shooters or the Alien film series will probably be better off waiting for Fox's recently announced Aliens: Colonial Marines for the PlayStation 2." Oh if only they knew...

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33 minutes ago, DonWaffleleven said:

It's gaming that changed, not the game. We have different standards for what we consider good quality now that are different than they were back in the 90s or even the aughts. For a (really) extreme example consider the year 2000 FPS Alien: Resurrection for PlayStation. Slammed by Gamespot for it's really backwards control scheme. To quote the review: "The game's control setup is its most terrifying element. The left analog stick moves you forward, back, and strafes right and left, while the right analog stick turns you and can be used to look up and down."

Those terrifying controls sound familiar? It's the controls for literally every modern FPS.

As this control scheme became more accepted by the gaming public, more archaic schemes of control like Doom or Quake (on console at least) would be looked back on with more relief that we ever managed to move past something so ancient. "left & right TURNS? You had to hold a button to STRAFE? How ever did they manage?"

I'm simply stating the case for why a game could "age" poorly for some. Personally I have a lot of fun playing the Sonic Adventure games regardless of them being nearly 19 years old at this point.

P.S. That Gamespot review ends with "Fans of console first-person shooters or the Alien film series will probably be better off waiting for Fox's recently announced Aliens: Colonial Marines for the PlayStation 2." Oh if only they knew...

I see your point...though I cannot comment on the controls for FPSs as I am not really into the genre(I'm into third person shooters but really on the Resident Evil games 4 through 6 and that's about IT)....I just wish people would do their research then if they're going to consider 3D games inferior(saying they're not good even if they didn't play them).  I will agree with you on Aliens: Colonial Marines though...I DID try that and everything the reviews said was TRUE. x_x(if there are fans of this game out there, more power to you.  I couldn't get through the first level(I'm bad at FPSs)as I am a fan of Aliens and wanted to try and expand my gaming...I was sorely mistaken to try this game).

 

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Heh, if we go by the logic of sonic colors and gens being seen good thanks to what was before it i say that we must remember that Mania had boom and lost world before it.

I dont think Mania is bad ( i would give it a 7/10 ) but i do think that the hype around it is exaggerated. A lot of issues with the game has been ignored which had they been in another game would have been inexcusable. 

 

Not to mention the whole "physics" hype. The return of sonics physics has people almost mad.

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Generations was released in 2011. That was, as of this post, just about six (nearly seven) years ago. Since Generations release, the only really solid/good Sonic games are the following: Sonic Racing Transformed (Spin-Off), Sonic 4 Episode II (Surrounded with the toxicity that Ep. I formed) and Boom Fire & Ice (Solid Platformer soiled by Rise of Lyric's release). Since than we had meh (Lost World) to downright awful games (Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric). Of COURSE critics are going to think 'Sonic Sucks' and the gaming community too, as SEGA horribly managed Sonic post 2012. 

The whole 'Sonic Sucks' message coming out was ironic, as it was spreading like wild fire during 2016, the same year Mania and Forces was officially announced. Sonic has and will always be, a poster child for being picked on and teased...but SEGA allowed this to happen. Colors and Generations ARE good to great games...but the aren't amazing. Both suffer from issues that drag them down a bit. I love Unleashed and 'personally' consider it great. But that game has many major issues holding it back (specifically the HD version). Point being, the era of 3D Sonic with the highest praise (Modern Era boost games) are just 'okay to great' from critics. 

Mania is on a whole other level though, with it honestly being an amazing game. While many 3D Sonic fans want that high level of critical reception too (I know I want that, as I grew up with 3D Sonic first and 2D Sonic later). But Sonic Team keeps fumbling at every turn, so it's hard to know if the next game is going to be good or not. That, in my book, is Sonic's biggest issue. The lack of consistent quality. We finally, FINALLY got that from the 2010-2012 period and I fucking loved that. Sonic was going to be respected again. People even thought Lost World was going to be better than Mario 3D World at one point! But here is the thing....Sonic Team dropped the ball and Big Red Button chucked that ball at everyone's faces with Rise of Lyric. 

Sonic before Mania's launch, was a joke. The series was on the verge of really DYING. Mania released and to my utter shock, everyone loves it. No, not just fans, critics, who hated Sonic for years, love it a lot too. Why? Because it's a damn great game. And the funny part? Sonic Team didn't even do that much outside of greenlight it. So the ball is now in Force's court. Will they get a slam dunk and start a string of quality that permeates across the entire series going forward? Or will they drop the ball and once more, Sonic is a joke? 

I sadly think the later, and that will be an issue for Sonic Team. But regarding this specific topic, people love Boost games (Colors and Generations) and really enjoyed them. But when you are fed meh and shit for a few years after that, it's hard to be super positive about Sonic. 

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Maybe it's just nostalgia running in that usual cycle. The nostalgia for the classic days came, went and was satiated with Mania. Now it's the Adventure's turn. It's reasonable to assume that people are just nostalgic for the days when good 3D sonic games weren't 2D powerup comedies (colors) or glorified museums of past glory (Gens).

Maybe it's all just retrospect. (Insert game here) was absurdly popular on it's release but a few months of actually playing it instead of being experienced through the developer-controlled hype cycle, people began to see it's flaws and become more critical.

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On 8/19/2017 at 4:16 PM, PKGaming said:

I can also see Modern fans taking shots at Mania too by saying it's mostly rehashed stages and doesn't do anything new. 

Wow, can you read my mind?  Cause that's what I think of the Classic games as a whole and why I'll always prefer Modern.

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I'm not a fan of Generations and Mania, for similar reasons.

The two games have gameplay brought back from previous games with little to no innovation, and their story is too silly/random to create any player involvement (for me personally at least).

Colors on the other hand had some innovative gameplay and very good presentation, little nostalgia pandering and a return to the "classic" style of badniks and a classic vibe (artistically speaking) while still keeping a modern style.

The game itself had many issues and the gameplay was very limited, but I enjoyed Colors more for waht it brought to the table rather than living on something that was already succesful in the past.

Also, I don't think Mania's physics/gameplay are perfect... it plays well but for some reasons I think it doesn't have enough flow and I find most of its level design boring-annoying. It's just Green Hill and the act1 of Studiopolis that I have fun with... Chemical Plant too kinda, minus the Puyo boss. I'm sure Mania is overrated and I'm sure it's possible to do a better game in every aspect.

I would take the Advance and Rush games over Generations and Mania at any time.

To leave a thought on the topic, I think it's less that they are bad games and more that people use Mania as an excuse to trash other Sonic games just for the sake of trashing. I have been annoyed of this since when Mania was announced and people started with this behavior.

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There's certainly a danger to not being critical enough of Mania since there's lots of room for improvement but I can't overstate how great it feels to play a Sonic game with layers upon layers of polish and depth in things like control and level design. Even though I like a lot of the newer Sonic games it's hard NOT to notice how hard those elements got hit in later entries. Sonic Mania will always be one of the best Sonic games to me for that alone. 

Colors and Generations remove similar layers of depth from the art design and storytelling and the gameplay being a step down from Unleashed doesn't help things. They feel more like a straight downgrade than the trade-off Mania provides. Thats probably why people soured on them over time.

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Part of it too is that later games would either overuse or otherwise misrepresent the things that made those two games fun or notable. So some people are inclined to rush back and say that those things bad then too even if they're neutral.

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Generations has always been considered a good sonic game, since release, by the mainstream. The primary group who complains about it are among those who preferred a different style of game to begin with, i.e. some  (but not all) fans of the adventure style games. 

It always seems like this fanbase has opinions that change over time but in reality that never happens because we are not one fanbase, we are many. The numerous subsets have stayed consistent in the things they want but their voices are louder at different times, when the series is either catering or not catering to the style they like. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Generations has always been considered a good sonic game, since release, by the mainstream. The primary group who complains about it are among those who preferred a different style of game to begin with, i.e. some  (but not all) fans of the adventure style games. 

My complaint is that it sucked at both things it tried to excel at: it sucked as a 3D "modern" Sonic game, mostly because that style was never compelling to me in the first place, and it sucked as a 2D "classic" Sonic game, mostly due to unsatisfying physics (and a ton of other miscellaneous things). Graphics and music was all it ever had going for it, really. Everything else (story, voice acting, gameplay) was ranging from mediocre to awful. (To this day, the final boss fight is more confusing than anything.)

That, and the fact that although it was supposed to be a celebration of the past of the franchise, a lot of times it felt more like a dumbing down of it.

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Sonic Generations is an excellent game but has received some criticism over the years because of how it dated and what it came to represent.

Firstly, it set a precedent of Sonic Team re-using assets and zone themes over and over again. It's easy to forget this, but at the time, the game's approach was fresh, as we only had Sonic and SEGA All Stars Racing and Sonic 4: Episode 1. And some of the levels, like Sky Sanctuary and Chemical Plant, were actually nice surprises back then (hard to believe I know). There were a few duds (the 06, Unleashed and Colors picks were unpopular and there were too many city levels), but the game delivered well on this front.

But since then, we've been absolutely barraged with the same themes over and over in Sonic Racing Transformed, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Mania, Sonic Forces and Team Sonic Racing. Generations was fresh when it started the anniversary theme, but it's become an easy target now for where this trend really started.

Secondly, the game has just aged in certain ways. Some of its technical: it's more stiff to control than you remember because of the framerate on earlier console generations and the Classic Sonic stages have worse physics than Mania. Some of it is in design: the Modern Boost gameplay isn't designed with platforming in mind which clashes with some levels and it can usually be too linear for its own good. Most of the bonus stages are duds, it's too short, the story is a quarter finished and the final boss is awful.

That said though, there are still great things about the game. I think the Classic Sonic level design deserves more credit than it ever received, the majority of the Modern Sonic stages are really fun, even if most of them are just spectacles, the game had a lot of unlockables, customisables and general reply value and most of the bosses are impressive. They aren't really hard, but I do think the bosses are better here than in many Sonic games for at least being impressive setpieces, usually they are just underwhelming.

I think it would still deserve a 8/10. It's still a really good game with some elegant design and it's by far the most consistent and well-balanced 3D game of the series. However, as time has passed, its flaws have become more apparent.

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Reading these responses, there's a pretty good case study to be had on how Sega can take a good idea and then just run it into the ground.

 

But yea; Colors and Generations are fine games for what they are, and were certainly the breath of life the series needed at the time. Subsequent games would lean heavily on their elements, but as usual, Sega missed the point and half assed those elements so people just grew tired of them over time.

 

So I can certainly see why people wouldn't really look fondly at them in hindsight.

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I quite like both Colors and Generations.  They're not the best games ever made or even the best Sonic games ever made, but they're fun games.  I don't mind the shift in tonality to lighthearted stories, and I generally quite like the aesthetic of the two games.

But even at the time, I always felt that they were sort of like Sega giving us the bare minimum in order to achieve a satisfactory review score.  Colors specifically feels like they took out all the controversial aspects of Unleashed, but didn't do much to actually improve upon its strong points.  And it continues to annoy me that moving in four cardinal directions like a normal game is still a chore.  And the way the game is compact to the point where it demands that you play it the way Sega wants you to play it and only that way is something that I've given up all hope that Sega will ever improve upon.

I don't hate the stories for Colors and Gens, since I'd rather have a simple story that's well contained than a complex one that's riddled with problems, but I do understand the frustration some people feel when plot points and introduced and then dropped often within the same cutscene, and especially if it's not your idea of what Sonic should be, I'm fine with people having that opinion, too.  I don't even mind the immature writing too much, but I understand it's not exactly compelling drama.

Basically, I'm saying, I like them.  They're not BAD games, but still rather flawed.

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