So are Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations not considered good games now?

[Bowbowis]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Nah I'd say Heroes has a lot of the same problems as far as just not giving a shit goes.

When I say Heroes gives a shit I mean it's written with sincerity.Nobody is going to accuse it of being as tightly plotted as SA2 or as thematically strong as Black Knight but while "The real super-power of teamwork!" may be corny it comes across as genuine; unlike Colors and it's overbearing cynicism.

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You don't even need to hold it up as the positive example because  almost allall of the Sonic games have stories that are fairly straightforward and have jokes.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

The storybook games work a lot easier if you're going to cite a positive example of a simple and straightforward story that tries to get you you to care about what's happening. 

I agree most Sonic stories are pretty straightforward in the grand scheme of things. However, given that "overly complex plots" has been a blanket criticism for every 3D game before Colors I tend to operate under the assumption that "simple" in this context means nothing worth mentioning happens between the first and last cutscenes.

[Kuzu]

The plots of the 3D games were criticized not because they were overly complex, but because they were just bad in their attempt at being complex. There's nothing inherently wrong with the series trying to be more complex than "Sonic destroys robots while throwing out some quips", but because the attempts have been more misses than hits, people outside of the diehard fanbase just simply stopped caring because at the end of the day, the average gamer just wants to run fast when it comes to Sonic. 

 

But sure, Heroes is sincere in its message...but it barely builds up that message for it to have any real weight; I wouldn't really say its sincerity in that sense puts it above Colors, at least significantly so. 

[thumbs13]

Heroes and Colors are both corny but in different ways, so I can see where the comparison comes in. Heroes is cheesy in an 90s action cartoon sort of way, which is different from what Colors did.

Heroes, and I'd argue most of the pre-colors games had funny moments here and there, but I'm pretty sure none of them were intentional. People rag on Colors so much cause it felt like the first game that wanted you to laugh at stuff that happened. 

[Nova]

9 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

There’s a difference between a fact and an opinion. After well over a decade of seeing “Sonic doesn’t work in 3D” because they screwed up twice with titles like ShTH and 06 after their first two successful attempts with the Adventure games and then screwing up 2D Sonic with Sonic 4, amongst a slew of other things that were complained about like having anyone other than Sonic playable which didn’t actually fix the problems when removed, I think it goes without saying anyone still repeating that doesn’t know anything.

The Adventure games were not successful attempts. Far, far from it. There is a reason games like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time became instant classics, and that's because Nintendo gave them love and attention and while they're not perfect, they're far better planned-out than Adventure or Adventure 2 which are full of collision issues, camera problems and a ridiculous amount of bugs. The very first level of SA1 features some of the worst automation and collision issues I've seen in a 3D game of that era. They're fun to play but they are not a 'successful attempt' at putting Sonic in 3D. Half-way at best. That's my opinion, and, sorry man but you're giving me an opinion and calling it a fact and while I'm up for discussing the former, I'm not naive enough to think I can reach a consensus with you so I really don't feel like continuing this discussion. Go off if you like, though.

[BlueFlare]

On 8/19/2017 at 9:29 AM, Tyranno said:

This will happen to Mania too.

As it will happen to pretty much everything else. As much I loved Unleashed/Generations era, I still see Mania much more exceptional, glorious and lasting much longer than all the boost-y games.

[StaticMania]

29 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Heroes and Colors are both corny but in different ways, so I can see where the comparison comes in. Heroes is cheesy in an 90s action cartoon sort of way, which is different from what Colors did.

Heroes, and I'd argue most of the pre-colors games had funny moments here and there, but I'm pretty sure none of them were intentional. People rag on Colors so much cause it felt like the first game that wanted you to laugh at stuff that happened. 

What is the comedic formula of the Sonic the Hedgehog series?

[thumbs13]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

What is the comedic formula of the Sonic the Hedgehog series?

There's no formula. It's just "Character makes a joke: Laugh here"

What people end up laughing at are stupid sayings and line reads, but those are never intentional.

[batson]

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I think a better term is “tension.”

And Colors definitely did not have that even compared to Heroes.

 

I agree completely. I felt more tension in the story in Heroes than in Colors. Take the part about Shadow for example. The idea of him perhapes being a clone was genuinly intriguing. I remember playing through Heroes for the very first time and being engaged in the story because of that mystery. And yes, it ended up not being resolved in the game, but we didn't know that that was going to be the case while playing though the game for the first time. Color's story meanwhile had no intriguing elements even during the first playthrough. No character ever took anything seriously so why should we?

[JezMM]

As long as we're comparing them, despite the bullet-pointed list of "missed opportunities" Colours has, I'll take it's story over Heroes any day.  Heroes was a goddamn mess, although in it's defense the context of release is important - they were trying out doing a simpler plot for the first time, so the way everything was SO simplified compared to SA1/SA2 was a serious culture-shock.  However, presentation is a key factor too.  The cut-scenes in Heroes are horrific - the CG cut-scenes are okay but are sometimes a bit too rubbery looking, whereas the in-game cut-scenes all feel like the development team was tasked with making every cut-scene no longer than 10 seconds and yet still being expected to cram worthwhile exposition and conversation into them.  Colours at least gives the conversation chance to breathe and makes me feel like I'm watching an actual story. Heroes' in-game cut-scenes have the pacing of a frenzied gmod animation.

And then, presentation-wise but in a different way, the story definitely suffers from being so spread out, and the individual stories never really amounting to anything, aside from Team Chaotix and Team Dark's ending.  As a follow-up to Sonic Adventure 2, the Dark Story was a massive letdown and the ending was either mistranslated or just weird.  Like how did Rouge KNOW this Shadow was a robot with such certaincy, especially considering, like, he isn't!  A real garbage pile of a mystery there.  As for Chaotix, again, Vector just KNOWING it was Eggman was kinda dumb too, though at least they drop a somewhat obvious hint in at some point in the story when the radio voice loses their composure for a moment, I forget the exact details.

Additionally, the team interactions are all pretty stupid and flanderised, the excuses to get them to fight in Grand Metropolis and Lost Jungle are absolute nonsense, especially the totally mundane reaction Team Sonic has to Shadow's re-appearance.

Annnd finally there's the fact that the return of Metal Sonic was so aggressively advertised both pre-release and in the game's opening movie, alongside the fact that it's one of the more difficult games to unlock the true conclusion on.  And of course that doesn't really amount to anything significant either because everyone fights him together and he turns into a monster of the week.  That's not what people like Metal Sonic for.

As far as "simple plots" go, Colours did a much better job - yes it has some missed opportunities and loose ends, but I find the individual cut-scenes fine to watch anyway. Heroes tries to cram a Sonic Adventure-esque plot into a classic Sonic plot's format and extremely flawed quantity/length of cut-scenes and it just doesn't work. It uses Metal Sonic just for hype's sake without respecting his character.

I guess the TLDR version is I think both plots should have been either simplified further or not had "simple story" limitations put upon them - they sit too uncomfortably in the middle (though Colours definitely beats Heroes out for "simple appeal" in spite of the loose ends, Heroes fails on both "simple appeal" and "complex story appeal"), but that Colours is more entertaining simply thanks to Heroes' awful presentation.

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, batson said:

I agree completely. I felt more tension in the story in Heroes than in Colors. Take the part about Shadow for example. The idea of him perhapes being a clone was genuinly intriguing. I remember playing through Heroes for the very first time and being engaged in the story because of that mystery. And yes, it ended up not being resolved in the game, but we didn't know that that was going to be the case while playing though the game for the first time.

I can't really give Heroes much credit just for hamfistedly setting up a plot point for a future game. All it amounted to was throwing a few points out there for people to frantically speculate over; nothing about it is good writing in itself. And considering how irrelevant it is in ShtH, I don't think they even did it in good faith, with a real plan in mind.

Quote

Color's story meanwhile had no intriguing elements even during the first playthrough. No character ever took anything seriously so why should we?

This is a complaint that I honestly don't get. I mean it's not even true first of all, that the characters joke around in several scenes doesn't mean scenes like Tails getting mind controlled, the heroes being horrified at the wisps being processed into nega wisps, or Sonic pushing Tails to safety to face Eggman alone don't exist. These aren't spectacularly written scenes of course and the game doesn't follow up on them too strongly, but the game is not, in fact, 30 minutes of characters saying "Baldy McNosehair". And second...it's Sonic, y'know? Taking things very seriously is not his default mode. Dude cracks jokes while escaping from the military, somehow that didn't ruin SA2.

[Kuzu]

Are we going to do that thing where we argue which subjective opinion is better? Because this doesn't seem like it's to going to go anywhere.

 

Can't really say I see how Heroes is so wholly better than Colors unless you just you're just looking at subjective things rather than quality of the writing itself.

 

[Wraith]

The lack of a strong follow-up on any attempt to ramp up the stakes would be the problem. It's a game that undercuts itself too much for anything to stick. People only remember the jokes because the game always wraps back around to that and not any of the actual plot points it sets up. Sonic games were pretty good about following up before this. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Nova said:

The Adventure games were not successful attempts. Far, far from it. There is a reason games like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time became instant classics, and that's because Nintendo gave them love and attention and while they're not perfect, they're far better planned-out than Adventure or Adventure 2 which are full of collision issues, camera problems and a ridiculous amount of bugs. The very first level of SA1 features some of the worst automation and collision issues I've seen in a 3D game of that era. They're fun to play but they are not a 'successful attempt' at putting Sonic in 3D. Half-way at best. That's my opinion, and, sorry man but you're giving me an opinion and calling it a fact and while I'm up for discussing the former, I'm not naive enough to think I can reach a consensus with you so I really don't feel like continuing this discussion. Go off if you like, though.

The Adventures most certainly were successful, and no amount denial that will change that fact when a simple Google search of their reception during their release is enough prove that. 

They’ve certainly aged poorly over time, and what game didn’t have bugs and issues during their early attempts at 3D back in the 90s? They’re still a farcry from the bugs Sonic 06 brought more than a decade later during a period that was less acceptable, and they were groundbreaking for Sonic in his initial attempts at 3D.

Really, that’s not even up for debate, so I couldn’t care less of a consensus from you that is false to begin with.

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, peliukun said:

yo long time lurking.

 

she didn't, she saw clones of shadow, thought her shadow was a clone too, and hesitantly (it's in the way she says it for crying out loud) admitted shadow was a robot. omega saw through her instantly, that's the clue that she ain't certain about it at all

She looks surprised to see the Shadow androids, then says 10 seconds after to Omega "Have I ever told you Shadow is a robot" as if she's known the whole time (or at least longer than 5 seconds). In addition, Omega mentions cloning as if it's a genetic thing when, as established, they've identified the contents of the pods (and apparently the real, biological Shadow himself they just spent the last 3 days with) as robotic.  Like I don't actually know but I've always just assumed this scene was mistranslated somehow because it's a complete mess where no-one speaks or acts logically for what a bombshell has just been confirmed for them (a bombshell that is completely wrong and in a sane world they could confirm by say, observing Shadow doing basic biological functions like eating and breathing.

Not that Shadow did much better with this "mystery" considering the solution was tucked away into the final boss background dialogue and the game has two endings that involve Shadow deciding he's an android even though he still super isn't (unless the developer's intention was that if you take this route, it's silently retconned that you're playing an alternate reality where he really is one).

[StaticMania]

40 minutes ago, JezMM said:

She looks surprised to see the Shadow androids, then says 10 seconds after to Omega "Have I ever told you Shadow is a robot" as if she's known the whole time (or at least longer than 5 seconds).

The Japanese version isn't much better.

As soon as E-123 Omega enters the room she just says Shadow is an android and then denials it.

Omega's line is still about genetic copies though, so she may have meant artificial...like DBZ androids translation.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

On 12/18/2019 at 9:57 AM, Kuzu said:

I'll fully admit that I'm a bigger fan of the Adventure era of games than I am of games like Colors, which colors my views a lot.

But what you said about the games being a breath of fresh air goes back to my point about that being faint praise in general. The primary reason that the post-06 games got so much good reception among the fanbase was because it basically stripped all of bad things from those games, but it didn't really add anything innovative to compensate. 

So what you're left with are games that do just the bare minimum to function. In the context of Sonic, which is a franchise that generally has put out mediocre to outright terrible games, that is pretty noteworthy. But it also illustrates just low the bar has been set, that merely being functional is considered an exceptional thing.

When put alongside their contemporary platforming franchises, Colors or Generations are pretty underwhelming if you're not already a Sonic fan to begin with, as once again, they do the bare minimum to set themselves apart from the competition.

I agree completely. Even though I think Generations is "objectively" the best and most consistent 3D sonic game, I wouldnt call it my favorite. I still prefer SA1 and would love to see that specific shade of sonic explored more with more focus. 

I also dont want to underappreciate the boost games for what they were on their own either. Generations had some legitimately fun levels with a lot of creativity and obvious investment. I'm not going to poo poo it (not saying you are) just because it doesn't fit my ideal mold of a 3D sonic platform if only because it does at least offer a competent alternative. And I have this viewpoint in general: If SEGA cant get the 3D sonic formula right, I'd rather see a series of solid quality games every few years than to see them constantly throw sh*t at the wall and destroy Sonic's reputation and budget in the process like they were from 2002-2007. That isnt going to work, we've already been down that road and so many seem to forget that just because they're not getting the exact game they want. I'm not either, arguably the series hasnt catered to the exact direction I want since 1999. But I love sonic and still want to see his unique gameplay and style exist with good quality and as long as were getting that I'll continue to return. 

[JezMM]

10 minutes ago, peliukun said:

she assumes. her whole body language in that scene is of hesitancy, she gets sad eyes, she trails off, she sees the clones, shadow was also found in the same pod, she assumes he's a robot like the rest and then admits to omega her assumption which she's inherently sad about and he sees right through it.

 

omega was a robot and she also spent 3 days with him. technology is way more advanced in sonic's world, maybe the other shadow robots could also breathe n stuff. at that point in time it could've been possible.

 

it's not a confirmation. she is not so certain that he is because she just made the assumption in the last second, and because she's uncertain about it, literally, omega calls her out on it and says the original must exist in order to clone (probably just overall appearance, at this point its speculation but kinda like ova sonic replicating logic), i mean, metal sonic had to gather organic data somehow for him to have those powers whos to say eggman couldn't somehow do similar with cloning shadow's data into a bunch of robots made to look like him using said data

 

scene isn't perfect i mean it's a bit hokey but it's not a literal mess lol, and certainly trying to do something more than colours with its baldy mcnosehair garbage

 

 

"Did I ever tell you" just ruins my ability to buy into anything that goes on with her body language, because her body language tells the story of someone who has only just discovered any clue at all, while her words imply she knew longer than that.

Not sure what her spending 3 days with Omega has anything to do with her apparent inability to tell whether Shadow is an android.

Big paragraph there, honestly I'm 50/50 on.  That kind of detail could certainly have been intended by Sonic Team behind the scenes, I'm leaning more towards the idea that it is the way you pitch it than it isn't - would certainly tie into Metal Sonic's story and while they were going for simpler presentation in Heroes, this Sonic Team was still fresh off the heels of SA2, they might still care about the lore overall even if they communicated it wonkily this time.

I can agree with you as far as that it's definitely trying to do something alright. I think Diogenes' last post already disputes the "baldy mcnosehair" obsession suitably.

[DabigRG]

Holy shit, did I actually miss something?

[DabigRG]

21 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

So's Heroes and it manages to do it while also making use of the extended cast, having actual stakes, not introducing and dropping plot-points in the space of a single cutscene (outside of a few obvious sequel hooks), not wasting three minutes on how gut-bustingly hilarious the name "Baldy McNosehair" is, and just generally giving a shit.

So really Colors isn't even the best at doing the thing its supposed to be good at.

 

Thank you. I can't believe how many people can't seem to get their heads around this.

 

21 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Man if Heroes had "actual stakes" I'm not sure how any other Sonic game hasn't.

 

20 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Heroes barely has a plot for it have "tension". Saying its better than Colors isn't really saying a whole lot. 

 

The storybook games work a lot easier if you're going to cite a positive example of a simple and straightforward story that tries to get you you to care about what's happening. 

Yeah, I was about to say, the only real stakes with Heroes would be the whole 3 Days time limit and Metal Overlord at the end.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

@peliukun @JezMM

It may be worth noting that Omega seemingly scanned Shadow during his rampage at the beginning of the story.

There's also the broken Android they see after beating the Egg Albatross.

[Cuz]

9 hours ago, JezMM said:

  As for Chaotix, again, Vector just KNOWING it was Eggman was kinda dumb too, though at least they drop a somewhat obvious hint in at some point in the story when the radio voice loses their composure for a moment, I forget the exact details.

That is what I like about that big scaly crocodile, by now being in on the joke or scheme a cut before everyone else, while also getting to bumble along with the crew is something I chalk up as a character trait now. 

and I also always bought into the line being mistranslated and intending to say "Did you know shadow was a robot?" 

[StaticMania]

11 minutes ago, Cuz said:

and I also always bought into the line being mistranslated and intending to say "Did you know shadow was a robot?" 

Again...

She just tells Omega that Shadow's an android when he enters the room, only seconds after she even sees the stuff.

[Soniman]

Can someone tell me what other 3D platformers were around 2010-11 besides Mario and Ratchet? Since people like comparing Colors and Gens to other franchises as to why they're not worth much. I'm honestly having a hard time. Sly 4? Epic Mickey?  That era was pretty sparse for 3D plats honestly, if anything that probably helped those games seem appealing even more back then. Yes I know they're mostly 2D but by the general public at large they are considered 3D entries 

[Wraith]

Pure 3D platformers by and large died off as a genre by 2010.  When you consider context we were lucky to still have 3D Sonic games at all. 

Part of reason for the pushback against these games is that we've entered an era where wide open 3D worlds and player agency take precedent. 3D Platformers with this focus are even starting to come out again. Hopefully the next entry of the series is mindful of this trend.

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

 

Yeah, I was about to say, the only real stakes with Heroes would be the whole 3 Days time limit and Metal Overlord at the end.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

@peliukun @JezMM

It may be worth noting that Omega seemingly scanned Shadow during his rampage at the beginning of the story.

There's also the broken Android they see after beating the Egg Albatross.

Whoops I completely forgot about that. A very fair point that does make Rouge's phrasing at the end finally make a bit more sense for me. The story is so sparse I guess I always forget about that small detail since it has no reason to be there and then you're expected to remember it for the rest of the game lol.

[Bowbowis]

10 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This is a complaint that I honestly don't get. I mean it's not even true first of all, that the characters joke around in several scenes doesn't mean scenes like Tails getting mind controlled, the heroes being horrified at the wisps being processed into nega wisps, or Sonic pushing Tails to safety to face Eggman alone don't exist. These aren't spectacularly written scenes of course and the game doesn't follow up on them too strongly, but the game is not, in fact, 30 minutes of characters saying "Baldy McNosehair". And second...it's Sonic, y'know? Taking things very seriously is not his default mode. Dude cracks jokes while escaping from the military, somehow that didn't ruin SA2.

In addition to what @Wraith said it's also a question of how the humor is integrated into the script. Before Colors the humorous moments in Sonic games generally arose naturally from characters and/or the situations they found themselves in and were secondary to the story being told. Sonic, being who he is, may drop a quip now and then but it  came and went as just one part of a larger scene, whereas Colors everything grinds to a halt so Sonic can do a minute-long pizza delivery man sketch with only the most tenuous of connections to anything that's going on. In comparison the "low budget flights" line (which is probably the most Pontaffian bit in the series prior to Colors) plays better, both because the scene has a point beyond merely being a vessel for delivering that one line and because the line itself is directly relevant to what's going on in that scene. It also helps that Sonic's irreverence is less overbearing since he's allowed to express a much greater range and intensity of emotions as the stakes are raised. Just compare his reaction to finding out Prison Island is about to blow up to his reaction to hearing that Eggman's Interstellar Amusement Park is about to do the same.