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MudHunter

I think *the theory* is basically confirmed at this point *Mania Spoilers*

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While I understand and somehow appreciate the effort on linking both games, the fact that many fans like me have been "suffering" the lack of classic gameplay Sonics (even when Sega tried with Sonic 4) and have been disappointed by lots of average/bad Modern/Boom Sonic games, it feels kind of "dirty" that the gift that is Mania is linked to a game that feels like those games that to me (and fans like me) have worsened Sonic's image.

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Good. It's been a long time since Sonic games have connected with each other, so I welcome SEGA/Sonic Team going back to that with Mania & Forces (helps that I'm looking forward to both games too). I don't see how anyone could just make the assumption that "it's just ST being desperate," either.

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46 minutes ago, JezMM said:

It really seems like Forces will be a follow-up to Mania if this is true and not much more, Mania can still stand alone as is, much in the same way S3&K stands alone even though Sonic Adventure follows up the story and history of Angel Island with new additions.

As someone who is interested in both games, cool.  For everyone else, I don't think this is going to be any more traumatising than Sonic 4 following up Sonic CD or Shadow following up Sonic Adventure 2, y'all survived those just fine.

I also personally don't see it as a cheap money-grubbing thing but rather... cool they're connecting games again.

If anything, it's a saving grace. Classic Sonic shouldn't be in Forces and Forces shouldn't be a thing, but they are and this is a consolation that makes things more palatable. Continuity in Sonic games has been sorely missing for far too long.

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"Certain sound effects"

Ohtani, honey. We recognized a lot of sound effects. You know this community and we've had years of videogames, cartoons, and films teasing events and connections because of that being a pop culture norm now. So this is good that we're right about Infinite. Alright. Good. 

Now what about that SatAM sound effect in Mania's Final Level?~ 

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11 minutes ago, Chameleon of the Spoilers said:

Logic: "Why have Sonic games at all when you can have Mania".

Classic Sonic doesn't need to show up in yet another meta self-crossover. And Forces as a project should never have gotten the go-ahead. It's not a good way to make a Sonic game. This isn't a case of saying Mania is a gift from God and anything else is shit, it's just that Mania is really good and that Forces isn't isn't. It's that simple.

If Forces was what I thought it was going to be for about 20 seconds when the teaser trailer was first shown and before Classic Sonic had reared his head - i.e. a modern Sonic game without more nostalgia pandering, using Sonic's friends effectively, Eggman as the main villain and not just a shameless clone of Generations, then it probably would be pretty good. But... It's crap.

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27 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Classic Sonic doesn't need to show up in yet another meta self-crossover. And Forces as a project should never have gotten the go-ahead. It's not a good way to make a Sonic game. This isn't a case of saying Mania is a gift from God and anything else is shit, it's just that Mania is really good and that Forces isn't isn't. It's that simple.

If Forces was what I thought it was going to be for about 20 seconds when the teaser trailer was first shown and before Classic Sonic had reared his head - i.e. a modern Sonic game without more nostalgia pandering, using Sonic's friends effectively, Eggman as the main villain and not just a shameless clone of Generations, then it probably would be pretty good. But... It's crap.

I'd say that you should lend me that copy you have, but I don't have a PS4. Or an Xbox One. Or a Switch. Or a good PC... I made myself sad.

Damn, it's that simple, huh? Forces is shit. Because it just is! Case closed.

Also it's interesting that you learned all of the plot and how the characters are used. 

Okay, enough passiveness.

First of all, shameless clone of Generations. Is that a bad thing? It wouldn't be, whether or not it's true. I also missed the part in Generations where Eggman took over the world, where his new thing was an independent character, where the returning villains were actual villains, and uh, it having original levels (and the Avatar, natch).

Second, it's not a good way to make a Sonic game... I don't even know what that means. Like, really, what does that mean?

Third, you're a bit ticked off about a pretty harmless tweet anyway.

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Maybe make good games like Mania instead of shitty games like Forces, and you won't need to beg people to buy them. Just sayin'.

This sentence doesn't make sense since Forces isn't out yet so no one can buy it. 

Also people buy games like Forces anyway. 

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2 hours ago, JezMM said:

It really seems like Forces will be a follow-up to Mania if this is true and not much more, Mania can still stand alone as is, much in the same way S3&K stands alone even though Sonic Adventure follows up the story and history of Angel Island with new additions.

As someone who is interested in both games, cool.  For everyone else, I don't think this is going to be any more traumatising than Sonic 4 following up Sonic CD or Shadow following up Sonic Adventure 2, y'all survived those just fine.

 

 

I also personally don't see it as a cheap money-grubbing thing but rather... cool they're connecting games again.

Thing is, S3&K had an actual closure, while Mania didn't. I don't know in which world Sonic going into a wormhole is a "good ending" for collecting all those Chaos Emeralds. 

Mania can live by its own merits of course, it has the long awaited right physics and mechanics, great animations and graphics, superb music and it's fun as fuck. But that cliffhanger has no reason to exist.

I'm all for connecting games, but not like this. This is not connecting games, this is Sonic Team desperately trying to convince you to buy Sonic Forces.

I'm not saying the connection with Forces is bad per se, but they should've done it differently: properly end Sonic Mania, and add an AFTER CREDITS scene making that connection. It's not like Sonic Team doesn't have a reference, just look at like, every Marvel movie.

Right now, Sonic Mania has no ending. People will buy and invest their time, just to find out the game will end... In another game that, mostly likely, a lot won't even buy...

Like I said in another thread, this little "move" Sonic Team made has done more harm than good.

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8 minutes ago, Jango said:

In all for connecting games, but not like this. This is not connecting games, this is Sonic Team desperately trying to convince you to buy Sonic Forces.

The connection is only apparent to people who already know / are interested in Forces in the first place. To understand the implications, you'd have to know who Infinite is, something you wouldn't know if you didn't care about Forces. It's not like it had a screen saying "BUY SONIC FORCES".

Although it definitely could've been done better, I see the ending as being open ended for other games as well, specifically for Mania 2.

Nevermind the main plot thread is finished; Eggman and Heavy King are defeated and they lost the Ruby. Of course, the actual fates of Tails, Knuckles, and the Heavies are left in the air,  but I heavily doubt those are going to be resolved in Forces.

 

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1 minute ago, NoKaine said:

The connection is only apparent to people who already know / are interested in Forces in the first place. To understand the implications, you'd have to know who Infinite is, something you wouldn't know if you didn't care about Forces. It's not like it had a screen saying "BUY SONIC FORCES".

Although it definitely could've been done better, I see the ending as being open ended for other games as well, specifically for Mania 2.

Nevermind the main plot thread is finished; Eggman and Heavy King are defeated and they lost the Ruby. But, of course, the actual fates of Tails, Knuckles, and the Heavies are left in the air.

And this is good?

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3 minutes ago, Jango said:

And this is good?

As I said, it leaves it open ended enough for a sequel.

As if you'd like it any better if it was a literal advertisement, but whenever they come back they can have Sonic pop out of the same portal, maybe in a new environment or some such, and never worry about any references to Forces.

You missed the part where I said "it could've been done better". Like, for example, everything's the same, the portal appears, but Sonic doesn't go into it, but he does notice it. Then Forces can pick the pieces up from there. Then Mania 2 can follow up on its own way, or ignore it, whatevs.

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41 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Classic Sonic doesn't need to show up in yet another meta self-crossover. And Forces as a project should never have gotten the go-ahead. It's not a good way to make a Sonic game. This isn't a case of saying Mania is a gift from God and anything else is shit, it's just that Mania is really good and that Forces isn't isn't. It's that simple.

If Forces was what I thought it was going to be for about 20 seconds when the teaser trailer was first shown and before Classic Sonic had reared his head - i.e. a modern Sonic game without more nostalgia pandering, using Sonic's friends effectively, Eggman as the main villain and not just a shameless clone of Generations, then it probably would be pretty good. But... It's crap.

For you maybe, it's your opinion, a smart opinion, but there's people who genuinely care about the game, aka non classic fans.

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4 minutes ago, Chameleon of the Spoilers said:

For you maybe, it's your opinion, a smart opinion, but there's people who genuinely care about the game, aka non classic fans.

Yeah, you make a game 99% aimed at classic fans, but decides to drop a cliffhanger that will be pick up in another game with a totally different target audience. Really smart move.

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3 minutes ago, Jango said:

Yeah, you make a game 99% aimed at classic fans, but decides to drop a cliffhanger that will be pick up in a game with a totally different target audience. Really smart move.

A venn diagram of "Classic" fans and "Modern" fans isn't two separate circles,  just so you know. Though of course it's not a perfect overlap.

Again, most people who don't already know Forces won't know that Mania's ending's connected to it. For them, it's a simple cliffhanger.

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Jesus Christ...

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I'd say that you should lend me that copy you have.

Damn, it's that simple, huh? Forces is shit. Because it just is! Case closed.

You're off to a bad start already. You don't need to have the game to form opinions. There's plenty we don't yet know about Forces, but there's also plenty that we do indeed know. The gameplay looks bad, the concepts look bad, a character creator is absolutely not something that should exist in a mainline Sonic game when there's already a huge cast to choose from. I feel like you're going to make me specify that opinions are subjective. Is that necessary? It's all opinions. I'm sure you can find plenty of posts of mine detailing everything that I dislike (and like, believe it or not) about this game.

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Also it's interesting that you learned all of the plot and how the characters are used. 

I know that existing cast have been put to one side to serve as extremely annoying commentators whilst Your Name the Hedgehog takes centre-stage. And this isn't helped by the fact that there are now two Sonic's because remember the old days! Oh, and I also know that everyone involved with writing this game's story and script have a poor track record, and that details we do have about Infinite and returning villains don't sound great.

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

First of all, shameless clone of Generations. Is that a bad thing? 

Yes. Generations wasn't amazing and is six years old. How can Sonic Team have made absolutely no progress in all that time?

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I also missed the part in Generations where Eggman took over the world, where his new thing was an independent character, where the returning villains were actual villains, and uh, it having original levels (and the Avatar, natch).

lol don't do this. You know what point I'm making, and intentionally misinterpreting it like this doesn't do you any favours.

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Second, it's not a good way to make a Sonic game... I don't even know what that means. 

You don't make a good Sonic game (or any game for that matter) by simply copying the last thing you did that didn't get slated. You don't rely on nostalgia to make sales, because eventually that's going to wear-off. Sonic Team actively took a step away from Generations when they moved on to Lost World, and now they're backtracking. They're not improving on anything they had - they're just trying to repeat it.

37 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Third, you're a bit ticked off about a pretty harmless tweet anyway.

I'm really not. I thought it was funny.

"PLEASE BUY SONIC FORCES"

"Nah, bro. Imma stick with some good games, ya get me?"

 

What's your problem, man?

 

11 minutes ago, Chameleon of the Spoilers said:

For you maybe, it's your opinion, a smart opinion, but there's people who genuinely care about the game, aka non classic fans.

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of Sonic, Classic or Modern (and maybe even Boom). But that has no bearing on what I think of Forces. Although saying that, I can imagine that a lot of people who don't like Classic Sonic are bummed out by his presence in this game. And other fans, such as myself, just feel that it's totally unnecessary alongside Mania which has tackled the Classic angle MUCH more competently.. One of the big issues with Forces is that it's trying to please everyone, rather than be genuinely good by its own merits. Jack of all trades, master of none.

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10 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

As I said, it leaves it open ended enough for a sequel.

As if you'd like it any better if it was a literal advertisement, but whenever they come back they can have Sonic pop out of the same portal, maybe in a new environment or some such, and never worry about any references to Forces.

You missed the part where I said "it could've been done better". Like, for example, everything's the same, the portal appears, but Sonic doesn't go into it, but he does notice it. Then Forces can pick the pieces up from there. Then Mania 2 can follow up on its own way, or ignore it, whatevs.

Rhetorical question. It's not good.

There's no "go back and save it", this very thread is about the connection being confirmed... 

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17 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

You're off to a bad start already. You don't need to have the game to form opinions.

You might to to have a valid one, though. I dunno, it's just something off about bluntly declaring a game shit over collectively less than 30 minutes of footage.

Oh, there's reasons to not like it, definitely. There's reasons to like it too. It's just, the brazenness is a bit aggressive. There's also the assumption that no one is liking Forces either.

Quote

The gameplay looks bad

Which ones? There's three, and two of them are exactly the same as the ones in past games, in which they were pretty good.

Quote

a character creator is absolutely not something that should exist in a mainline Sonic game when there's already a huge cast to choose from. 

Why. 

I mean, we could have both. We don't, but we could have. Is it bad in that situation too?

I'm disappointed in not having other characters but I'm not mad at all at the Avatar.

Quote

Yes. Generations wasn't amazing and is six years old. How can Sonic Team have made absolutely no progress in all that time?

Only one other game released since Gens. The Avatar looks like an evolution of the Modern Sonic gameplay, so regardless of its quality, you can't say it isn't progress. 

I'd hate to be that guy too but Mania hasn't exactly propelled Genesis Sonic to new heights either. I expect you to reply to that with some variation of "but Mania is good", so don't bother. We both know that.

Quote

You know what point I'm making, and intentionally misinterpreting it like this doesn't do you any favours.

It's a shameless clone despite having new elements and new gameplay. 

It's definitely Generations 2 but not a "shameless clone".

Quote

You don't make a good Sonic game (or any game for that matter) by simply copying the last thing you did that didn't get slated.

Except it did get slated. I don't care about your personal opinion of Colors and Generations but you can't tell me those weren't well-received. If you're talking about some abstract thing like the tone or feeling, those can be done well in any situation.

Quote

I'm really not. I thought it was funny.

"PLEASE BUY SONIC FORCES"

"Nah, bro. Imma stick with some good games, ya get me?"

What's your problem, man?

Nah, it was more like.

"Please buy Sonic Forces."

"Maybe if you STOP MAKING SHIT, YOU SHIT DEALERS!! Thank god for Mania!!!"

"Ticked off" was a bit too strong, though, I agree. Your comment wasn't from a, uh, humorous place, though. I mean... what's the joke? Forces bad, Mania good? I-I don't see it.

17 minutes ago, Jango said:

Rhetorical question. It's not good.

There's no "go back and save it", this very thread is about the connection being confirmed... 

That's not the point of my comment at all.

"The connection isn't bad. It's not overt and it leaves for an open ending" But also, "It could've been done better." They're not mutually exclusive.

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The quote dissection game is messy, so I'm not going to continue doing that for the sake of our sanity. Also you and I are totally going off thread here. I'm going to spoiler this reply , and if you want to continue the discussion, just quote this post into another topic. I'm only posting this here now so that it's clear to anyone reading. 

 

I don't see why my opinion isn't valid. There's plenty about the game that doesn't bode well at all. And knowing Sonic games, SEGA and Sonic Team so well, the opinions that I'm holding are certainly informed. As I said before, there is still a lot we don't know. But those are the finer details. The broad strokes, concerning what the game offers in terms of gameplay at the very least, look really bad. Modern Sonic's gameplay could be anything from Generations - what's new here? It wasn't that good in Generations. It just wasn't bad like almost everything in the pre-Colours years. The Custom Hero gameplay is the same levels, but with clunky Wisp abilities. It doesn't look fun either. And Classic Sonic? Well...

I've said this before about the custom character - Sonic is a character driven series. There are fans that adore some or all of the extended cast (and also those that feel very differently), and they've been ignored for a long time. Rather than finally bringing back those characters, we're being given the opportunity to instead inject ourselves into the story. I don't want that out of Sonic. I've never wanted that out of Sonic. It's a really bad match up of ideals of game and story when there series has existed for so long using established, real characters to suddenly throw *YOU* into the mix. The idea of custom characters would be much more fitting for a spin-off that focused on the customs instead of shoehorning them alongside the existing cast.

The thing about Mania is that it's building immensely on something that's been met with near-universal acclaim. Forces isn't building on anything. It's copying. And it's foundations weren't well-received for being entirely good by their own merits, but rather because it was much better than the slew of games before it and Colours.

26 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Except it did get slated. I don't care about your personal opinion of Colors and Generations but you can't tell me those weren't well-received. If you're talking about some abstract thing like the tone or feeling, those can be done well in any situation.

I honestly don't know what you mean here. "Slated" means "critically panned" or any other variation of "not well received". Unleashed, '06, Shadow, Lost World, Boom and others were all slated to varying degrees. Colours and Generations were not slated - they were praised. So after Boom and Lost World failed (and it doesn't matter than another developer took on Boom), they've gone back to the last game that wasn't slated, i.e. Generations. Instead of making Generations better, they're just "doing it again".

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The funny thing is I didn't even read the Mania ending as Sonic going into a portal until I came on here and read about the whole sound effect/pose connection with the Phantom Ruby and all the theories about the connections.  I just thought it was an abstract bunch of pretty colours and Sonic doing a cool pose because there wasn't really anything more to say in the ending other than "you did it, Sonic blew up the thing."

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