Sonic Forces forgets the basic rule of 3D platforming...

[memoryman3]

There's no shadow underneath the character when he/she jumps, so it's near impossible to tell where you're going to land.

You can see it in the recent Tag Team footage.

 

 

Generations had a shadow underneath the character, as did Lost World. I think graphical spectacle is being prioritised over gameplay here...

[Stasis]

I've never been a big fan of Mario games but they do the shadow right as seen in Odyssey. Crash N Sane Trilogy also doesn't have a shadow suitable for platforming so I can see why people said it was difficult. With the platforming currently seen in Forces being quite basic though it might not be a huge problem.

[Semi-colon e]

The Werehog stages in Unleashed didn't have the drop shadow either. People complained about it with the pipes in Eggmanland as it's pretty difficult to show where you're going to land, especially as you have very little space to stand without simply slipping off.

[Indigo Rush]

People kept asking for shadow to return, little do they know this is what we meant, not this guy:

[Sonikko]

Implying Forces has 3D platforming

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

1 hour ago, memoryman3 said:

There's no shadow underneath the character when he/she jumps, so it's near impossible to tell where you're going to land.

You can see it in the recent Tag Team footage.

 

 

Generations had a shadow underneath the character, as did Lost World. I think graphical spectacle is being prioritised over gameplay here...

...you do know this is a Gamescom build and not the final version? They haven't gotten around to polish the game properly yet.

[Jango]

1 hour ago, Stasis said:

I've never been a big fan of Mario games but they do the shadow right as seen in Odyssey. Crash N Sane Trilogy also doesn't have a shadow suitable for platforming so I can see why people said it was difficult. With the platforming currently seen in Forces being quite basic though it might not be a huge problem.

Crash does have a realistic shadow AND a basic round one, sir. 

Anyways, unless this game has tons of platforming, which I don't see it happening, who gives a damn about a shadow at this point?

[Speedi]

12 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

...you do know this is a Gamescom build and not the final version? They haven't gotten around to polish the game properly yet.

This game has been in development for 4 years I'd hope they at least got a fucking drop shadow finished before giving off demo builds. In any case it probably doesn't matter because they love to have enemies that you can homing attack standing on the platform you need to get to which eliminates the challenge anyways.

[Josef]

Sonic isn't a precision platformer, so even if his shadow wasn't clearly visible, I don't think it matters.

Besides, Sonic is really about going really fast more than it is tight platforming. At least Adventure was, I remember that the only precision platforming sections were frustrating because it was hard to control him in the air because he's so fast.

And Forces seems to understand this, as the game mostly focuses on boosting and jumping aroung large terrain where it's not easy to fall to your death. And when there are bottomless pits, there are homing attack enemies and ring dashes in place to help you and keep the game flowing.

So I don't think this'll be a problem. They thought of everything .

[Speedi]

2 minutes ago, Josef said:

Sonic isn't a precision platformer, so even if his shadow wasn't clearly visible, I don't think it matters.

Besides, Sonic is really about going really fast more than it is tight platforming. At least Adventure was, I remember that the only precision platforming sections were frustrating because it was hard to control him in the air because he's so fast.

And Forces seems to understand this, as the game mostly focuses on boosting and jumping aroung large terrain where it's not easy to fall to your death. And when there are bottomless pits, there are homing attack enemies and ring dashes in place to help you and keep the game flowing.

So I don't think this'll be a problem. They thought of everything .

Yeah, because eliminating the challenge of platforming and replacing it with automation and homing attack chains isn't a problem at all 

[Josef]

'Automation' actually isn't a problem, Sonic's never been good at 3D platforming, at least not in my experience. Sonic Adventure was fun because no other game replicates that fast, exhilirating experience of speeding through fantastical environments.

The flaw of Adventure was the lack of flow, where fast and fun environments were broken up with slow, unwieldy precision platforming. It just doesn't work, Sonic goes too fast to make precise Mario like jumps. The only way to make Sonic a precision platformer is to massively slow the game down or introduce a 'run' button, which I think is against the whole spirit of Sonic. Otherwise his default jump either overshoots or undershoots the platform, it's unwieldy making something as fast as Sonic jump on platforms like mario.

Forces has improved these platforming sections by keeping the flow going in tandem with Sonic's speedy abilities rather than encouraging awkward precision platforming that just doesn't work with Sonic's speed. The only downside I have seen is lack of variety, as the pyramid had three light dashes in a row. If it did three different things, like a light dash, a homing attack and then something entirely new (parkour off the cogs or something) then it would be even more impressive. But it's still fast, looks cool and doesn't bog down the game's flow.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Josef said:

'Automation' actually isn't a problem, Sonic's never been good at 3D platforming, at least not in my experience. Sonic Adventure was fun because no other game replicates that fast, exhilirating experience of speeding through fantastical environments.

The flaw of Adventure was the lack of flow, where fast and fun environments were broken up with slow, unwieldy precision platforming. It just doesn't work, Sonic goes too fast to make precise Mario like jumps. The only way to make Sonic a precision platformer is to massively slow the game down or introduce a 'run' button, which I think is against the whole spirit of Sonic.

Forces has improved these platforming sections by keeping the flow going in tandem with Sonic's speedy abilities rather than encouraging awkward precision platforming that just doesn't work with Sonic's speed. The only downside I have seen is lack of variety, as the pyramid had three light dashes in a row. If it did three different things, like a light dash, a homing attack and then something entirely new (parkour off the cogs or something) then it would be even more impressive. But it's still fast, looks cool and doesn't bog down the game's flow.

I have an idea for the next game:

 

[Josef]

No need to be rude Sonikko, I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and criticise without making fun of me.

I don't claim to be a Sonic expert.

[Diogenes]

12 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

...you do know this is a Gamescom build and not the final version? They haven't gotten around to polish the game properly yet.

Projecting a shadow under the player isn't exactly a difficult process, and I'd think it's something they'd want to have in early so they can take it into account when judging how the jumps feel. And hell, the game's coming out in just a few months, there isn't much time left to polish it.

Anyway a shadow like that is useful for 3D platforming but I don't think it's inherently necessary if the controls are solid and the platforming is generous enough. The real problem is that Sonic Team just sucks at making platforming that's any good.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

4 minutes ago, Speedi said:

Yeah, because eliminating the challenge of platforming and replacing it with automation and homing attack chains isn't a problem at all 

The 2d sections contain all your platforming needs.

Rewatching some generations and unleashed (day) stages, you can see the 3d is about reacting fast to keep the speed going. (You go really fast!)

Modern is about going fast and not eating a wall, Classic is about platforming with pieces of terrain that somehow float, the avatar is a grab bag of both with "combat" as the main focus

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, Josef said:

'Automation' actually isn't a problem, Sonic's never been good at 3D platforming, at least not in my experience. Sonic Adventure was fun because no other game replicates that fast, exhilirating experience of speeding through fantastical environments.

The flaw of Adventure was the lack of flow, where fast and fun environments were broken up with slow, unwieldy precision platforming. It just doesn't work, Sonic goes too fast to make precise Mario like jumps. The only way to make Sonic a precision platformer is to massively slow the game down or introduce a 'run' button, which I think is against the whole spirit of Sonic. Otherwise his default jump either overshoots or undershoots the platform, it's unwieldy making something as fast as Sonic jump on platforms like mario.

Forces has improved these platforming sections by keeping the flow going in tandem with Sonic's speedy abilities rather than encouraging awkward precision platforming that just doesn't work with Sonic's speed. The only downside I have seen is lack of variety, as the pyramid had three light dashes in a row. If it did three different things, like a light dash, a homing attack and then something entirely new (parkour off the cogs or something) then it would be even more impressive. But it's still fast, looks cool and doesn't bog down the game's flow.

So instead of working to find a solution to a mix of speed and platforming, like how the Classics blend the two, the solution is... to automate everything and make it style over substance?

What? 

[Josef]

5 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

So instead of working to find a solution to a mix of speed and platforming, like how the Classics blend the two, the solution is... to automate everything and make it style over substance?

What? 

The Forces gameplay doesn't have much automation. Ring dashing isn't automation, homing attack chains aren't automation, they are actions which are triggered by pressing buttons. They are game mechanics, they are just as legitimate as jumping. The only difference is that they are actually intuitive and don't slow the game down, while precision platforming as Sonic in 3D just doesn't work for the reasons I've given above.

Automation is when you press nothing and the game plays along like a cutscene. I'll admit the rail grinding is automated, but that's only done in short bursts.

It's very different gameplay to 2D platforming, I admit that, but just because it's different it doesn't mean it's bad.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Josef said:

Ring dashing isn't automation, homing attack chains aren't automation, they are actions which are triggered by pressing buttons.

After which the game plays itself for a bit.

You're not actually going to get a good game out of constantly minimizing what's expected of the player and having the game itself handle most of the player character's movement. 3D Sonic doesn't have to be about "precision platforming" (in all seriousness it shouldn't be, Sonic's speed and momentum means platforming needs to be more generous to compensate), but it should involve the player actively guiding their character through the level and not watching the game do it for them.

[Josef]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

After which the game plays itself for a bit.

You're not actually going to get a good game out of constantly minimizing what's expected of the player and having the game itself handle most of the player character's movement. 3D Sonic doesn't have to be about "precision platforming" (in all seriousness it shouldn't be, Sonic's speed and momentum means platforming needs to be more generous to compensate), but it should involve the player actively guiding their character through the level and not watching the game do it for them.

Oh, I hadn't thought of it like that before, maybe removing the game's challenge and guaranteeing movement isn't the best design decision.

It's still fun to boost through levels and focus less on platforming though isn't it? City Escape is a really popular level for example, and that has hardly any platforming in it.

 

 

[sonicdudeatdawn]

2 minutes ago, Josef said:

It's still fun to boost through levels and focus less on platforming though isn't it? City Escape is a really popular level for example, and that has hardly any platforming in it.

And the times where platforming is there, you can skip it entirely

[Meta77]

36 minutes ago, Josef said:

Sonic isn't a precision platformer, so even if his shadow wasn't clearly visible, I don't think it matters.

Besides, Sonic is really about going really fast more than it is tight platforming. At least Adventure was, I remember that the only precision platforming sections were frustrating because it was hard to control him in the air because he's so fast.

And Forces seems to understand this, as the game mostly focuses on boosting and jumping aroung large terrain where it's not easy to fall to your death. And when there are bottomless pits, there are homing attack enemies and ring dashes in place to help you and keep the game flowing.

So I don't think this'll be a problem. They thought of everything .

To much logic in this post. I agree one of the best and worse things in the adventure games was the speed and crazy non platform precision needs. I can not count how many times I'd spin dash up a hill or soon dash off a ledge to roll up or hit a wall that was to far for regular jumping or in final chases case a area I was not technically supposed to be at.

[Josef]

I do understand the point you guys are making with automation now, but do you then also dislike the best levels in Adventure and Adventure 2, like Emerald Coast,  Speed Highway, Radical Highway, Twinkle Park etc? Those levels are all just as automated.

All of these levels were at their best when the game guides you around the level like a rollercoaster and has you speeding through the stage. There really isn't much platforming involved in these levels, which is why they are so fun. It's a unique experience that no other game provides.

I guess if you dislike automation in 3D Sonic then you would have to fundamentally overhaul Sonic's 3D design.

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

To much logic in this post. I agree one of the best and worse things in the adventure games was the speed and crazy non platform precision needs. I can not count how many times I'd spin dash up a hill or soon dash off a ledge to roll up or hit a wall that was to far for regular jumping or in final chases case a area I was not technically supposed to be at.

...I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. 

Being able to use a character's abilities within the level design to reach areas ahead of time or reach hidden areas is indicative of good design; the player has the freedom to reach these areas through using a combination of the character's moveset (spindash and jumping in this case) and use of their own intellect. 

Its like how one City Escape, if you can't be arsed timing the poles at the stairs, you can use a well timed spindash jump to reach the invincibility monitor much quicker. It's a reward for clever use of abilities. 

Maybe i misunderstood, but I really don't get what you're inferring. 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Josef said:

It's still fun to boost through levels and focus less on platforming though isn't it?

Honestly, no. I got sick of it years ago, and the games have only leaned further into that kind of "gameplay". I buy games to play them, and I'm tired of spending money on something that feels like it's only pretending to be a game. At this point, there is so little appeal in how a 3D Sonic game plays that I can get about the same experience by just watching a playthrough on Youtube or something.

1 minute ago, Josef said:

I guess if you dislike automation in 3D Sonic then you would have to fundamentally overhaul Sonic's 3D design.

I have been saying exactly that for years, my man.

[Josef]

He's saying that you could easily get to out of bound places you were not supposed to go to and utterly break the game because the game's jumping was so fast. It's a statement of how poor Sonic's precision platforming is in 3D.

And going out of bounds is cool in Adventure, but probably something you shouldn't be able to do so easily