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Sonic Forces forgets the basic rule of 3D platforming...


memoryman3

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1 minute ago, Josef said:

He's saying that you could easily get to out of bound places you were not supposed to go to and utterly break the game because the game's jumping was so fast. It's a statement of how poor Sonic's precision platforming is in 3D.

And going out of bounds is cool in Adventure, but probably something you shouldn't be able to do so easily :lol:

 

 

That's not because the control is bad, it's because the game has a really well made physics engine that allows you to make crazy shortcuts not intended. They by all means could have had a bunch of invisible walls and ceilings stopping you from exploiting the game, but they probably realized that restricting the player's freedom wouldn't be as fun.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

Honestly, no. I got sick of it years ago, and the games have only leaned further into that kind of "gameplay". I buy games to play them, and I'm tired of spending money on something that feels like it's only pretending to be a game. At this point, there is so little appeal in how a 3D Sonic game plays that I can get about the same experience by just watching a playthrough on Youtube or something.

I have been saying exactly that for years, my man.

That's fine dude, I just haven't been here very long and haven't played any Sonic game other than Adventure 1 or 2. I guess you wouldn't like those games either. I'm definitely not a Sonic expert lol.

Maybe they will translate Sonic 2 into 3D one day, I hope that happens so you get a Sonic game that you enjoy :D . With Mania SEGA seems to be targeting fans of the old Sonic's, so maybe this will be another step down the road if there's enough fan demand.

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8 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. 

Being able to use a character's abilities within the level design to reach areas ahead of time or reach hidden areas is indicative of good design; the player has the freedom to reach these areas through using a combination of the character's moveset (spindash and jumping in this case) and use of their own intellect. 

Its like how one City Escape, if you can't be arsed timing the poles at the stairs, you can use a well timed spindash jump to reach the invincibility monitor much quicker. It's a reward for clever use of abilities. 

Maybe i misunderstood, but I really don't get what you're inferring. 

Take final chase sonic stage I get both mixed up. That first huge rail you grind I love jumping off it to land on a later section on it. No shadow given yet I hit it and it's not something that probably thought people would do unlike spin dashing a box that was meant as a secondary method of reaching said box

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2 minutes ago, Speedi said:

That's not because the control is bad, it's because the game has a really well made physics engine that allows you to make crazy shortcuts not intended. They by all means could have had a bunch of invisible walls and ceilings stopping you from exploiting the game, but they probably realized that restricting the player's freedom wouldn't be as fun.

I didn't say the control is bad, only that it's bad when you have to make really precise jumps. The fact you can sling yourself all over the place is reflective of how awkward it is to jump really precisely.

And I also think the engine is really cool, but being able to jump around into areas you are not supposed to go to and utterly break the game so easily isn't actually good design, you aren't supposed to do that. It's not a shortcut, it's breaking the game :P . I get it, it's fun man, but we have to accept what it is.

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13 minutes ago, Josef said:

That's fine dude, I just haven't been here very long and haven't played any Sonic game other than Adventure 1 or 2. I guess you wouldn't like those games either. I'm definitely not a Sonic expert lol.

Maybe they will translate Sonic 2 into 3D one day, I hope that happens so you get a Sonic game that you enjoy :D . With Mania SEGA seems to be targeting fans of the old Sonic's, so maybe this will be another step down the road if there's enough fan demand.

Oh, right! Well that explains a lot. Welcome to the Sonic series then! 

7 minutes ago, Josef said:

I didn't say the control is bad, only that it's bad when you have to make really precise jumps. The fact you can sling yourself all over the place is reflective of how awkward it is to jump really precisely.

And I also think the engine is really cool, but being able to jump around into areas you are not supposed to go to and utterly break the game so easily isn't actually good design, you aren't supposed to do that. It's not a shortcut, it's breaking the game :P . I get it, it's fun man, but we have to accept what it is.

Oh yeah, breaking out of bounds and stuff isn't exactly useful; at least what I meant was stuff like using spindash jumps to take large shortcuts not necessarily intended and stuff. A huge chunk of Sonic Adventure's Lost World level for instance, can be shortened considerably by using spin dash jumps to cross gaps; in the final gravity tile room, using momentum can have the section done in less than half a minute. And the key thing is this all relies on the player's skill, not an automated ring chain or something. 

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@Josef  I don't know how this became about automation and all that other stuff in the first place, but that doesn't have to do with anything, really. You do realize that Sonic Adventure...hell even Sonic 3D Blast had proper shadows under their characters too, right? Sega had the foresight to help the players judge jumping distances and perspective for their platformers in the 90's.

Can you please explain to me how not adding a shadow adds to the experience (Which I'm guessing you're ultimately arguing against...) and how this only helps out players with jump distance and perspective? Because I'm not seeing that at all.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

You do realize that Sonic Adventure...hell even Sonic 3D Blast had proper shadows under their characters too, right?

Well...

Quote

I just haven't been here very long and haven't played any Sonic game other than Adventure 1 or 2.

I'm going to wager no. 

For what it's worth, while I don't agree with Josef, it's interesting to get the perspective of someone who isn't at least a bog-standard Sonic fan like pretty much everyone here and he's been very receptive to the ideas folks like Dio have presented. It's a refreshing change of pace, innit. 

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Hmm, that would explain everything, then. I'm a slow typer, and I didn't even get to the point where he got to explain himself further =P

Honestly though, even though this game's a couple months away and was 4 years in development apparently, I think a proper shadow will come soon enough. The lighting could just be wonky atm and they're still tweaking things. At least I'd hope so, anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Josef said:

Maybe they will translate Sonic 2 into 3D one day,

They very nearly successfully did it with Sonic Heroes. The game had expansive levels, multiple ways to tackle obstacles, enemies that have actual AI, and actual momentum that can be conserved. If they tone down the combat and tighten the controls, and add more levels, I think it could be a great 3D Sonic.

 

The fact that Forces doesn't have the drop shadow at this point means that platforming in 3D will either be extremely simple or frustrating. 

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3 hours ago, Jango said:

Crash does have a realistic shadow AND a basic round one, sir.

Really? Can't say I've seen it in any footage and I've yet to play it myself, but fair enough ;)

 

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Hold on, this is weird. I looked at the IGN video again and it looks like they do have drop shadows. See?

 

Screenshot 2017-08-25 10.11.25.png

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They aren't accurate as to where the character will land, they are based on the current light source.

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3 hours ago, Sonikko said:

Sometimes it's easy to forget we aren't all the same age and we all haven't got the same knowledge of all the previous games. For once it's nice to see somebody who just got into the series and isn't trying to be this huge know-it-all. 

I think Josef is a cool guy!

And it's also nice to know that new people are actually being attracted to this franchise despite all its hardships.

Although I imagine we're eventually going to receive an influx of new users after Sonic Mania that'll come in and act as though they know everything about Sonic gameplay, just because they played Mania. If this does happen I'm praying they don't behave like that.

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1 hour ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Hold on, this is weird. I looked at the IGN video again and it looks like they do have drop shadows. See?

 

Screenshot 2017-08-25 10.11.25.png

They're still directional shadows, just the characters are close to the surface, so they appear almost underneath. And maybe the light source is in a different position too.

4 minutes ago, Maxtiis said:

And it's also nice to know that new people are actually being attracted to this franchise despite all its hardships.

Although I imagine we're eventually going to receive an influx of new users after Sonic Mania that'll come in and act as though they know everything about Sonic gameplay, just because they played Mania. If this does happen I'm praying they don't behave like that.

Well, it's always nice when the fanbase grows!

As long as people are able to back up whatever they're argumenting, I'm fine with having a discussion. If any new Mania player thinks they understand Sonic, and they actually do, then, what's the harm?

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2 hours ago, memoryman3 said:

They very nearly successfully did it with Sonic Heroes. The game had expansive levels, multiple ways to tackle obstacles, enemies that have actual AI, and actual momentum that can be conserved. If they tone down the combat and tighten the controls, and add more levels, I think it could be a great 3D Sonic.

As someone who really likes Sonic Heroes, I cannot accept the wrongness of this statement...

 

Nothing from Heroes is even remotely similar to Sonic 2. Especially in regards to momentum and expansive level design...it's long, not expansive.

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Just now, Sonikko said:

They're still directional shadows, just the characters are close to the surface, so they appear almost underneath. And maybe the light source is in a different position too.

Well, it's always nice when the fanbase grows!

As long as people are able to back up whatever they're argumenting, I'm fine with having a discussion. If any new Mania player thinks they understand Sonic, and they actually do, then, what's the harm?

I guess none in that case. It's the ones that don't understand it but think they do, and aren't willing to discuss why they feel that way about it and just continue to insist that they're perception of it is right, and that we're wrong that I'd have a problem with. Thankfully I haven't seen anyone like that in regards to Mania around here, but we've all seen similar instances in other Forces topics; it just leads to discussions turning into arguments eventually leading to the topic being locked.

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hey wait a sec... when was platforming in a modern 3d ever a big deal?

i don't remember having to make precise jumps. 

did i miss a game?

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23 minutes ago, Maxtiis said:

And it's also nice to know that new people are actually being attracted to this franchise despite all its hardships.

Although I imagine we're eventually going to receive an influx of new users after Sonic Mania that'll come in and act as though they know everything about Sonic gameplay, just because they played Mania. If this does happen I'm praying they don't behave like that.

People always have been. Regardless of how bad "some" make it seem segas driving this series into the ground many many people still love it and comment all over YouTube about it. Hell my 06 e3 upload has fans posting how thought it was crap loved the game and Elise.  But in a sonic game besides eggman land drop shadow are not that important honestly

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6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

hey wait a sec... when was platforming in a modern 3d ever a big deal?

i don't remember having to make precise jumps. 

did i miss a game?

Sonic is a platforming series.

Platforming has always been a big deal.

That the 3D games aren't good platformers has always been a problem.

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13 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

hey wait a sec... when was platforming in a modern 3d ever a big deal?

i don't remember having to make precise jumps. 

did i miss a game?

This has been a longstanding issue here.

Sonic's 3D platforming excursions have always been really mediocre, what's notable is that Forces just happens to be impressive in it's lack of inspiration from the footage we've seen. There could be improvements later on, but I'm not holding my breath. The game hasn't done much to give me reason to hope for it.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

Sonic is a platforming series.

Platforming has always been a big deal.

That the 3D games aren't good platformers has always been a problem.

in the classic era. its pretty weird that people keep buying and praising these bad platformers.

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1 minute ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

in the classic era. its pretty weird that people keep buying and praising these bad platformers.

This is a 20+ year old franchise, there's going to be some generational overlap. And yeah, it's weird to see kids keep buying that game with their favorite character in it.

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2 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

in the classic era. its pretty weird that people keep buying and praising these bad platformers.

It's not like the first 4 games are the best the franchise had to offer until Mania came around

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