Sonic Forces forgets the basic rule of 3D platforming...

[Indigo Rush]

We would need a better foundation than what Sonic Team's been building off of these past few years. 

For starters though, slopes, platforms that can only be reached by obtaining enough speed, challenges involving forward momentum instead of clearing enemies in a circle and the nixing of bottomless pits would go a long way in making this more palatable. 

Or stuff like this:

 

though not perfect in design, are miles better than any 3D platforming Sonic Team has put out lately.

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

humour me folks: draw me a "good" sonic forces level

just put me in my place 

It's not our job to do so?

Anyway, this is what good level design looks like.

And it NEEDS to be complemented by an actual physics engine or it won't make any sense.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Sonikko said:

It's not our job to do so?

Anyway, this is what good level design looks like.

And it NEEDS to be complemented by an actual physics engine or it won't make any sense.

green hill zone... why am i not surprised?

here's your perfect child you *words i wont type because as much as i despise you and others i have to respect you*. Sa2 is the game for you

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

green hill zone... why am i not surprised?

here's your perfect child you *words i wont type because as much as i despise you and others i have to respect you*. Sa2 is the game for you

What? I don't even know how to reply to that.

Do you even have any idea what you're talking about?

And man, if you despise me because I think a Sonic game looks bad, then wow.

[Indigo Rush]

6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

green hill zone... why am i not surprised?

here's your perfect child you *words i wont type because as much as i despise you and others i have to respect you*. Sa2 is the game for you

Could you be any saltier? Jeez. 

SA2's Green Hill Zone is a terrible example and shows how Sonic Team were never great at it. This is a bunch of linear pathways with sharp turns over a bottomless kill field. This is almost everything wrong with 3D Sonic level design. (though it is more involving than Forces' gameplay)

I get that you don't like any of us, but the least you could do is actually put effort into your arguments. There's no need to get snippy. 

[Sonikko]

I just mentioned Green Hill because even if it's really overused and stagnant by now, it's a really good example of great level design. It was a great introduction to Sonic gameplay and one of the best levels in Sonic 1.

Get any level map from Sonic 2 or 3 and chances are it'll easily stomp anything from the games post 2000s.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I get that you don't like any of us, but the least you could do is actually put effort into your arguments. There's no need to get snippy with us.

I kind of came here because "more sonic fans? hell yeah man!" but instead i meet the "sonic demolition crew" some of what you guys said in other threads makes absolute sense but some of it is "influenced by your love of the classics" and you all relentlessly gut modern sonic like a fish.

I'd much rather look like an idiot who doesn't know how to conduct a proper argument and get hated more than forces, than see you turn away from what could be a fun experience.

Spoiler

my hands really hurt now

 

[The Deleter]

Believe it or not, Forces would actually be good basis for a 3D platformer. It's control is loose enough to turn on command without worrying about missing the mark with your momentum and stiffness, and a double jump lends itself to platforming better than an air dash such as in Generations or Unleashed could.

It's the physics that matter most when designing a really good 3D Sonic platforming stage, though, with unique terrain challenges and a consistant mechanic to utilize... of which Forces has very little of. So most platforming would be composed of large horizontal blocks for the sake of safety. Doesn't mean that you can't do anything creative with that; just look at Mario 3D World's level design. It does tons of creative stuff with large, horizontal blocks. But it wouldn't be the best it could be for Sonic standards, by a long shot.

[Indigo Rush]

1 minute ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I kind of came here because "more sonic fans? hell yeah man!" but instead i meet the "sonic demolition crew" some of what you guys said in other threads makes absolute sense but some of it is "influenced by your love of the classics" and you all relentlessly gut modern sonic like a fish.

If Sonic 2 or 3 had a character with green eyes and a lanky body, the games would still be amazing. If Sonic 2006 had classic Sonic, it would still be a dumpster fire. We're criticizing the later Sonic games because there's something to criticize, and boy how there's a lot of it. Forces is an amalgamation of everything Sonic Team has done wrong. 

Quote

I'd much rather look like an idiot who doesn't know how to conduct a proper argument and get hated more than forces, than see you turn away from what could be a fun experience.

Many of us are veterans of the series for over a decade and have had time to look at the games with a critical eye. We can decide for ourselves and have been able to do so. We love Sonic when it's doing it right. We've done everything we can to explain to others why we have our concerns for this game, and it has to do with how it's presented and designed. I don't know what else to tell you. To be a Sonic fan, you don't have to accept whatever's been given to you. We're consumers, Sega is the producer. If they fail to deliver, we're going to complain. That's how this business works. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

11 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

but some of it is "influenced by your love of the classics" and you all relentlessly gut modern sonic like a fish.

I have an idea.

I have noticed a pattern emerging whenever someone criticises Forces, provides examples of why it's bad design, the issues it has and you know, goes to lengths to actually show why they have a problem with it.

I've had to do this on a number of occasions, and I've noticed that it's also slowly starting to turn into how I have to bring up examples of good level design to support my argument as to why Forces is bad.

 

So if we are indeed ultimately wrong, and how we're all "blinded by our love of the classics..."

 

Would these people who think the level design is fine actually go the extra mile for once and post some screens of the said sections they think is great to support their stance. 

 

It's really not hard.

Here's a hint, load a youtube video and then use the 'snipping tool' for fast screenshots, then upload to imgur. I do it in my articles a lot and it really helps illustrate my points. Before someone gets hyper defensive and accuses me of backseat modding, I'm really not, I'm just growing very tired of having to post why I think the level design is bad, only to be countered with 'no it's not, you're all blind' and having utterly nothing to debate against.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

All i want is for you guys to give the game a chance. 

I once thought mania was just a waste if sega's resources, youtube comments told me to give it a fucking chance. Now i have a game i'd happily put on my 4th favorite sonic game slot (underneath generations).

I'm not saying you'll love the game so much you'll forget the classics NO!

But not Everything sonic team does is wrong: 

the adventure titles were beloved by fans and the casual crowd

Unleashed showed that sonic can work outside the adventure formula 

Colours.... umm

Generations was a celebration of modern and classic sonic gameplay

I'm 18 years old and I know that not all games have been playable. (secret rings?)

Yeah i LIKE 06 but i can see its flaws and quick push to release.

It really blows like a  hair dryer that this fanbase is horribly split and i know DAMN well that i alone can't change someone's opinion nor view

Spoiler

But please give it a spike of a chance guys if you regret it. I'll buy the next mania for you

.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

12 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I kind of came here because "more sonic fans? hell yeah man!" but instead i meet the "sonic demolition crew" some of what you guys said in other threads makes absolute sense but some of it is "influenced by your love of the classics" and you all relentlessly gut modern sonic like a fish.

I'd much rather look like an idiot who doesn't know how to conduct a proper argument and get hated more than forces, than see you turn away from what could be a fun experience.

 

This isn't about something as simple and silly as a Classic fans vs Modern fans wars. There are many people who are complaining about Forces who do not even care for the classic style series to start with. And even "I" despite wanting to try my hardest to like Sonic Forces... I just see so much wrong with it on many levels... Sure I think I'll still enjoy the game, but that doesn't mean it's a greatly designed game, and it looks far off from a Sonic game I'll love. Instead of dismissing everybody who has problems with the game as "haters" maybe you should accept some people have legit concerns with the game.

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

All i want is for you guys to give the game a chance. 

We have, it's called the trailers and content shown so far.

Christ how hard is this for people to understand this. You judge what content is shown, not what MIGHT happen.

If you show something and it's naff, I will call it naff, if you then work on it and it ends up being good, I will gladly praise it accordingly. This example of the lack of a shadow will be a big issue if there are some platforming segments similar to that of previous titles, so until they turn on the shadow fx, right now it sucks.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm not giving Sega my money for Sonic Forces. They have failed to sway my interest in this product. 

There's no room for "give it a chance" in this situation, especially when I have all the details I need to convince me that this is not something I want to experience. You shouldn't have felt pressured to buy Sonic Mania, nor should I feel pressured to buy Sonic Forces.

If it's lucky enough to get above a mediocre reception, I'll wait for a significant price drop to experience it firsthand. This is not what I want out of a Sonic game, or a video game in general for that matter. An appeal to emotion is the a terrible reason to buy a product.

I bought Sonic Mania because I understood what it was and was interested in the kind of gameplay it provided, I supported the team behind it, and I wanted to send Sega the message that I want more of it. Sonic Forces is not what I want, so I will not buy it with my own money. It's that simple. I have a limited budget and to spend it on a game I am almost 100% sure I'm going to dislike is a really foolhardy idea. 

[Osmium]

42 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

humour me folks: draw me a "good" sonic forces level

just put me in my place 

ain't 3D and pretty basic but shows how Sonic levels are supposed to work, plenty of interacting paths that are accessible if you know how to control Sonic well, notice all the hills you can jump off for great height at the beginning. And yeah I've had this sitting around for a while. 

[Stasis]

I'm in the "I like Forces" camp, but even on seeing the first few seconds of the tag team trailer I thought it had too much of a corridor look going on.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

I'm not saying all hate is unfounded

26 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

some of what you guys said in other threads makes absolute sense

did i not say this?

i did put up a thread analyzing all 5 stages that were shown off and i put away my bias.

3 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

ain't 3D but shows how Sonic levels are supposed to work, plenty of interacting paths that are accessible if you know how to control Sonic well, notice all the hills you can jump off for great height at the beginning. And yeah I've had this sitting around for a while. 

also nice work, but does it incorporate the boost? wispons? this a classic level?

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

All i want is for you guys to give the game a chance. 

I've given Sonic Team more chances than they deserve, at this point. It's been disappointment after disappointment. And everything about Forces tells me it's going to be the same. Nothing about this game looks good to me. I see all the same kinds of problems the series has struggled with before. So I see no reason to waste my time and money on giving it a chance.

If the game somehow does turn out to be good in the end, I'll eat my words. Gladly, even, since that would mean there's an actual good game at the end of this nightmare. But I have no reason to believe that will happen, and every reason to believe that it won't.

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

Also nice work, but does it incorporate the boost? wispons? this a classic level?

Why does it need a boost? There is nothing in that design that would justify a constant X velocity for a period of time.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Why does it need a boost? There is nothing in that design that would justify a constant X velocity for a period of time.

then its a classic level

[Meta77]

20 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

All i want is for you guys to give the game a chance. 

I once thought mania was just a waste if sega's resources, youtube comments told me to give it a fucking chance. Now i have a game i'd happily put on my 4th favorite sonic game slot (underneath generations).

I'm not saying you'll love the game so much you'll forget the classics NO!

But not Everything sonic team does is wrong: 

the adventure titles were beloved by fans and the casual crowd

Unleashed showed that sonic can work outside the adventure formula 

Colours.... umm

Generations was a celebration of modern and classic sonic gameplay

I'm 18 years old and I know that not all games have been playable. (secret rings?)

Yeah i LIKE 06 but i can see its flaws and quick push to release.

It really blows like a  hair dryer that this fanbase is horribly split and i know DAMN well that i alone can't change someone's opinion nor view

  Reveal hidden contents

But please give it a spike of a chance guys if you regret it. I'll buy the next mania for you

.

Not all of us "veterans" hate 3d sonic. I'm 28. I literally was raised with sonic through the years and own every game to date except that odd arcade machine. Not all of his 2d games have been amazing same as his 3d games but I still love them to some extent.  We're all fans in the end just know some of us older fans are excited for forces cause it looks fun. Others not so much *typically 3d games* that's sonic stadium for you. Just hope in XD

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I don't understand 3D level design

... ... if the game has correct physics, 

if the character object is correctly programmed to respond to those physics when a X velocity is applied...

Then that level design does not need a boost since there is nothing in it that prevents the player from progressing other than their own skill.

[Osmium]

1 minute ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

then its a classic level

Yeah it was. You said to make a good level, that's what I had. It's just a demonstration of how paths are supposed to work in a Sonic game, better than anything Forces has

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, ShroomZed said:

Yeah it was. You said to make a good level, that's what I had. It's just a demonstration of how paths are supposed to work in a Sonic game, better than anything Forces has

better than classic's one released level yes.

[The Deleter]

14 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I'm not saying all hate is unfounded

did i not say this?

i did put up a thread analyzing all 5 stages that were shown off and i put away my bias.

also nice work, but does it incorporate the boost? wispons? this a classic level?

If you want an example of a game that utilizes the boost in the best possible way for a platformer like that in a 3D space, look no further than this proof of concept:

Not the most polished but it has tons of potential and does quite a few things right

 

Additionally for Wispons, there's a really easy fix for them. You know how Sonic hides elemental shields in the levels, or Mario hides powerups that allow him to preform better in out-of-the-way item blocks? If they were hidden like that, that would fix the amount of effort it needs to take the wispon route, making it a reward for exploration rather than an immediate and superior pathway. And for the actual path, make the wisp only the enterance to the route overall, where the rest of the path is composed of more challenges for Sonic's core abilities. Or...

Make engaging gameplay around that wisp, rather than automatic trails of rings of automation. Instead of just a constant line of rings, make it timing-based where obsticals would punish you if you activated it at the wrong moment, or throw specific gimmicks into the mix that change up the way you think about the trails of rings. Or, better yet, give Sonic the core ability of the wisp while it's active while letting him keep his initial moveset, and have that wisp's gimmick integrated with Sonic's normal level design to make it more complex and multi-dimensional.

Having the wisps be "here's a path, here's the item, press a button to win it" is probably the laziest power up design in a video game ever, so it really isn't hard to fix tbh.