Sonic Forces forgets the basic rule of 3D platforming...

[Sonikko]

15 minutes ago, Josef said:

Thanks for all your lovely comments guys, I really appreciate it. You guys all rock too .

I've been thinking over what the anti-Forces guys have said and I can see where they are coming from. Sonic started out as a 2D platformer, and it's probably not great for them to see a platforming series they love turn into what happened to Sonic after Adventure, where platforming took a backseat to speed, reflex-based challenges and setpieces. It kind of turned into a different game.

Thing is, I've never played anything other than Adventure and Adventure 2, so I'm not #1 Sonic fan lol. But I do think the gameplay in Adventure and Forces has its own appeal and place. You can argue that it is overly automated, and you are probably right, but just because something is linear and hand-holdy doesn't mean it is objectively bad. There isn't much player interaction in numerous games I love, particularly narrative based games, but I still think those games are legitimately good. And while Sonic is obviously not narrative focused in that sense, I think the spectacle and speed of the game shouldn't just be called outright bad. No other game provides the fast-paced, flowing speed and setpieces of 3D Sonic, and while you could (rightly) say it's too automated, I think that's still a point in its favour.

And there are obviously things I would change about Forces if I could, I would like to play as characters such as Shadow and I would like to see more open levels like in Adventure, Forces seems a bit too corridory. But even with those faults, I like what I'm seeing and I love all the Adventure fannods, it brings me right back to my teenage years.

TLDR, I understand and respect why people don't like Forces, and maybe you guys are right that Sonic should become less automated in the future. I wouldn't be opposed to that, you guys know more about Sonic than me lol. But I also think 3D Sonic is enjoyable and a unique experience, even if it is too automated.

 

It's a little bit more complicated than that!

Let's see, how do I put this.

Sonic 1, 2, 3, & Knuckles, those weren't just about plaftorming. It's not just one thing. The fun in those game came from the fact that the character moved in a peculiar way. The way Sonic (Tails and Knux too) reacted to slopes and ramps, let the player find very interesting ways to traverse the environment and the level.

If you roll down an incline, you gain a lot of speed. If you jump on a slope, the jump arc depends on the slope inclination.

There's much more to it, and the combination of all these elements made up for very interesting playstyle approaches.

As soon as Sonic made the switch to 3D, with Sonic Adventure, they tried bringing that same gameplay in three dimensions, but they couldn't because of technical difficulties, it was the late 90s after all, they didn't have the same tech and engines we have now, so they had to cut some corners and make compromises.

They limited what Sonic could do, the physics weren't perfect, and so the level design had to be more linear and less open than before, to cover up all these missing things.

From there on it has been a downard road. They've stripped away most of what made Sonic what it was in the first place, to the point that now they're left with a gameplay that doesn't allow for any freedom. There's only so much they can do with the boost formula right now, and Generations was probably the pinnacle of that.

Forces doesn't look interesting even if you only compare it to the rest of the boost formula games though, they really aren't trying.

If you're interested in how Sonic works, and maybe want to get a closer look at the classics and what are the possibilities there, a more in depth look, I suggest you watch the Spitball series on Youtube. They're very, very long videos, but they nail everything.

Oh, and Langeplays, those are great.

 

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

8 hours ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

...you do know this is a Gamescom build and not the final version? They haven't gotten around to polish the game properly yet.

The final build is two months away. This should've come before anything else, and I would bet it really won't be in the release product. 

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

38 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

The final build is two months away. This should've come before anything else, and I would bet it really won't be in the release product. 

Really? I guess you know how Sonic Team develops their games? It's a simple fix that they may get in to on the final polishing stages. How do you even know the final build is two months away? Did I miss something that Forces got a final "official" release date?

I'm not saying they will fix this, but regardless this build is not the final one so it's still a beta build. So what you saw may not reflect the final product of Sonic Forces.

...come on guys. This thread will look silly when the final product is out and they did fix this.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

48 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It's a little bit more complicated than that!

Let's see, how do I put this.

Sonic 1, 2, 3, & Knuckles, those weren't just about plaftorming. It's not just one thing. The fun in those game came from the fact that the character moved in a peculiar way. The way Sonic (Tails and Knux too) reacted to slopes and ramps, let the player find very interesting ways to traverse the environment and the level.

If you roll down an incline, you gain a lot of speed. If you jump on a slope, the jump arc depends on the slope inclination.

There's much more to it, and the combination of all these elements made up for very interesting playstyle approaches.

As soon as Sonic made the switch to 3D, with Sonic Adventure, they tried bringing that same gameplay in three dimensions, but they couldn't because of technical difficulties, it was the late 90s after all, they didn't have the same tech and engines we have now, so they had to cut some corners and make compromises.

They limited what Sonic could do, the physics weren't perfect, and so the level design had to be more linear and less open than before, to cover up all these missing things.

From there on it has been a downard road. They've stripped away most of what made Sonic what it was in the first place, to the point that now they're left with a gameplay that doesn't allow for any freedom. There's only so much they can do with the boost formula right now, and Generations was probably the pinnacle of that.

Forces doesn't look interesting even if you only compare it to the rest of the boost formula games though, they really aren't trying.

If you're interested in how Sonic works

I spy... an opinion

The classic games aren't universally praised by all sonic fans, yeah they were first but that don't mean they're good to all

While You might not see the fun in forces, Others do and are hyped.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Nothing to do with anyone past this point

______________________________________________________________________________

Spoiler

SEGA messed up and did good this year: The modern fans got forces and Classic fans got mania.

The problem? Classic fans are now mad with forces isn't made with genesis physics, zones that don't make sense with modern sonic's playstlye, cringy avatars, and unnecessary boost. while some modern fans expressed absolute disgust at mania for being slow and peppered with cheap enemies, so many annoying slopes, tails doesn't do anything, and why the hell am i playing puyo puyo?

its clear now: Classic extremists are wrong and Modern Extremists are wrong. Classic extremists haven't had a good sonic game in years, and modern fans see the classics as shitty Mario clones, Both are rubbish mentalities 

The 2017 games are for two different generations and the gap can't be bridged.

After the success of mania SEGA will more than likely keep Whitehead and crew around, And Sonic Team will continue to make Modern games.

Who knows, the adventure fans may finally get the numbered installment they've been waiting for somewhere down the road, if SEGA can find a good team.

 

[SpongicX]

8 hours ago, Josef said:

Sonic isn't a precision platformer, so even if his shadow wasn't clearly visible, I don't think it matters.

Besides, Sonic is really about going really fast more than it is tight platforming. At least Adventure was, I remember that the only precision platforming sections were frustrating because it was hard to control him in the air because he's so fast.

And Forces seems to understand this, as the game mostly focuses on boosting and jumping aroung large terrain where it's not easy to fall to your death. And when there are bottomless pits, there are homing attack enemies and ring dashes in place to help you and keep the game flowing.

So I don't think this'll be a problem. They thought of everything .

I remember the hardest parts being due to wonky camera angles, not the controls. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

6 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Did I miss something that Forces got a final "official" release date?

Yes.

6 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Come on guys. This thread will look silly when the final product is out and they did fix this.

This is god damn absurd now.

How many more times does someone have to say 'we judge what we see not what might be' before people get it!?

If it changes by then, great we'll praise it! But right now it's not there and it's such a basic thing it's ludicrous.

Quote

I've been thinking over what the anti-Forces guys have said and I can see where they are coming from. Sonic started out as a 2D platformer, and it's probably not great for them to see a platforming series they love turn into what happened to Sonic after Adventure, where platforming took a backseat to speed, reflex-based challenges and setpieces. It kind of turned into a different game.

Mmmmmm no, it's not quite that for me.

See I used to love Generations I really enjoyed the Unleashed daytime stages for that matter, utterly loved it, but after playing it a few years after it came out I could see the problems, as I've learnt and understood more about level design myself, I can REALLY see the problems that the series has.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

6 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Yes.

Where did Sega officially announce Forces' release date?  

6 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

This is god damn absurd now!

How many more times does someone have to say 'we judge what we see not what might be' before people get it!?

Because we are talking about a freaking shadow. Not a level design, story, characters or something significant. A shadow.

7 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

If it changes by then, great we'll praise it! But right now it's not there and it's such a basic thing it's ludicrous.

You guys will praise them? I highly doubt that. Really doubt it.

[Osmium]

12 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

Who knows, the adventure fans may finally get the numbered installment they've been waiting for somewhere down the road, if SEGA can find a good team.

they've already made it three times. 

Quote

Because we are talking about a freaking shadow. Not a level design, story, characters or something significant. A shadow.

Actually it is pretty significant. Read the topic to figure out why. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 minute ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Because we are talking about a freaking shadow. Not a level design, story, characters or something significant. A shadow.

Yeah we are, and it's such a vital part to making platform gameplay easier, why the hell is it not in a public build of a game which should be about to enter Beta if it's not there already?

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Where did Sega officially announce Forces' release date?  

Famitsu, yesterday. Nov 9th in Japan.

TechAdvisor said SEGA confirmed to them it's Nov 7th elsewhere, but that's been removed now; presumably they let slip something they shouldn't.

[Sonikko]

12 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I spy... an opinion

The classic games aren't universally praised by all sonic fans, yeah they were first but that don't mean they're good to all

While You might not see the fun in forces, Others do and are hyped.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Nothing to do with anyone past this point

______________________________________________________________________________

  Reveal hidden contents

SEGA messed up and did good this year: The modern fans got forces and Classic fans got mania.

The problem? Classic fans are now mad with forces isn't made with genesis physics, zones that don't make sense with modern sonic's playstlye, cringy avatars, and unnecessary boost. while some modern fans expressed absolute disgust at mania for being slow and peppered with cheap enemies, so many annoying slopes, tails doesn't do anything, and why the hell am i playing puyo puyo?

its clear now: Classic extremists are wrong and Modern Extremists are wrong. Classic extremists haven't had a good sonic game in years, and modern fans see the classics as shitty Mario clones, Both are rubbish mentalities 

The 2017 games are for two different generations and the gap can't be bridged.

After the success of mania SEGA will more than likely keep Whitehead and crew around, And Sonic Team will continue to make Modern games.

Who knows, the adventure fans may finally get the numbered installment they've been waiting for somewhere down the road, if SEGA can find a good team.

 

Dude I wrote a long post about why the classic games have deeper mechanics and better design than the modern games, and all you got of that was "hurr durr classics are better fuck off modern fans"?

Geez

[Cornelius Fudge]

2 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Yeah we are, and it's such a vital part to making platform gameplay easier, why the hell is it not in a public build of a game which should be about to enter Beta if it's not there already?

Because the game's too easy, so Sega needed an excuse to omit the shadow and make things harder.

[Osmium]

2 minutes ago, Cornelius Fudge said:

Because the game's too easy, so Sega needed an excuse to omit the shadow and make things harder.

Well that's a damn poor and cheap way to add difficulty. I doubt that's the reason for it. 

[Tracker_TD]

24 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

while some modern fans expressed absolute disgust at mania for being slow and peppered with cheap enemies, so many annoying slopes, tails doesn't do anything, and why the hell am i playing puyo puyo?

- Mania isn't slow. Hell, I'd argue it hands you speed more than even 3&K or 2 does. Cheap enemies is a tough one; unless they're on a route I've missed, I haven't seen anything that particularly blindsides you, mostly thanks to the widescreen aspect. Perhaps the Chemical Plant drowning chasm? That seems more... crushy when entering than I'm used to.

- Slopes are a key aspect of Classic Sonic level design, what?

- Tails doesn't have to be played with; but even then, he actually does do something. He can be used to reach higher routes, thus giving the player more freedom in how they approach the level and route they take (notable bc Mania's stages are huge). Plus the whole 1.5 player thing, innit. 

- Puyo is a fair complaint, yeah. Much as I love it, I can see why the genre switch could be troubling. 

Anyway past that, yeah. What Sonikko said. Reducing an argument down doesn't make the original, fully-featured stance weaker. Just makes your interpreted version of it weak. 

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Yeah we are, and it's such a vital part to making platform gameplay easier, why the hell is it not in a public build of a game which should be about to enter Beta if it's not there already?

Do you know when the build was made? They could have made this build for Gamescom months ago for all we know. All these builds, even if it's a public one - is still a non-finished product of the game. 

The people in Gamescom and E3 are only test-driving the game, they didn't spend $60 or whatever on playing it, and it's also a great opportunity from Sega to get feedback on the game.

We are talking about a shadow, that yes - should be there but apparently isn't. But it's not a huge issue when they can fix this within a couple days work, maybe even much shorter. You guys are talking as what you saw is the final Sonic Forces, and that's what we are getting. No shadow confirmed.

[Badnik Mechanic]

28 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Do you know when the build was made? They could have made this build for Gamescom months ago for all we know. All these builds, even if it's a public one - is still a non-finished product of the game. 

Yeah I do actually!

 Since I make software and my own little games I do actually have a VERY good idea as to when this build was made and try a week or two before the event and you might be in the right area! 

All you do for a demo is branch off from the main development trunk to create a small workable section of the game based on that with the parts you dont want on show locked out. Typically via UI restrictions

Christ if you don't have a stable build that's can offer some playability which will only day a week or two at the most to lock down then you do not want to be showing off a public demo at an event at all!

Also this isn't a few days work. It's a few hours at the absolute most. About 1 hour if even that for a skilled C++ developer with 3D graphics experience.

It took me just a day to implement a shadow on 3D ball falling and impacting objects for a uni project with no prior experience.

The code under the hood which makes this work is literally just a math formula and a bit of binding to the target object along with some draw code.

That's it!

It's not a hard thing to do and it's so basic that you'd want it in there just to make life easier for your QA and balance team.

[Diogenes]

Why are people always in such a rush to defend a game with what might change or what might be revealed?

Like, you get on people's backs for judging an unfinished version of the game, while arguing the merits of a version of the game that you've made up? All we can rationally judge is the material provided to us; you can certainly hope for problems to be fixed between that build and the final, but no good comes from calling out people for simply pointing out the truth of what we've been shown.

[PKGaming]

I've been trying to put my finger on why exactly it is that I'm so unimpressed and not excited for Forces, when I do genuinely enjoy boost gameplay and Generations is probably my favorite 3D Sonic game. Like, I do think there's merit and legit fun to be had with a gameplay style where you're boosting through a level at mach speed while doing quick, reaction-based platforming. It's not like the classics at all, but it's not trying to be and it's still fun. Hell, some might even prefer that. I've been watching a few videos of Sonic newbies playing Mania because of all the hype, and they'd make comments like "Oh, I love the parts where you go fast" or "I like the fast parts. I wish it was JUST that the whole time". And I'm just thinking they'd probably really like the Rush games and Generations then. But then there's Forces...why is it so underwhelming? Like I wanna say because from what we've seen the levels are TOO linear and corridor-like, but Generations had levels like that too like Green Hill and Rooftop Run, and yet I find those levels way more interesting.

[Remy]

11 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

 

 Since I make software and my own little games I do actually have a VERY good idea as to when this build was made and try a week or two before the event and you might be in the right area! 

All you do for a demo is branch off from the main development branch and create a small workable section of the game based on that with the parts you dont want on show locked out. Typically via UI restrictions

Also this isn't a few days work. It's a few hours at the absolute most. About 1 hour if even that for a skilled C++ developer with 3D graphics experience

this might be true for whatever small project you're working on in uni but it's absolute bullshit for a project of this magnitude. There's no way of knowing Sonic Team's workflow behind closed doors, how dependent parts of the game are on others, etc. Not to mention producing a demo requires having a completely finished level or two to show off publicly- when most game development isn't as linear as "first we complete all the mechanics, graphics, systems and scripting in level 1 ->then we make more levels" It's not as simple as commenting out the parts where you choose levels/things people don't want to see and just changing the menu to load a different stage. source: I program too! and my girlfriend works professionally in games 

Do you actually work in industry on semi large games? If so I'll shut up, but otherwise I feel this a really misleading thing to say. Furthermore, I think this is a completely irrelevant discussion re:  the "age" of the demo because 2 months out from release I extremely doubt they're going to be making any more major changes to the game other than finishing up and 2 months out they're not going to want to show some crappy unfinished/subject to change demo because people on the internet will tear it to shreds if they do. 

Re: the shadow- I think the reason it's there is a big part of Sonic Team's pride with Generations and Unleashed was the global illumination system- and having accurate to the sun shadows is some part of that. I imagine to them having the shadow in aim precise jumps is unnecessary in a game where large amounts of the more difficult platforming is automated by things like the homing attack and the light spreed dash.

It's not like they're incapable or unaware of this, because I'm fairly certain lost world had it, and it wouldn't be hard to have the GI ignore sonic and draw a fake shadow under him. So it must be a deliberate stylistic choice, for better or for worse 

[Scar]

Deifying the classics has nothing to do with most of our dislike of Forces. We dislike Forces, because for all money it looks like its a badly designed game, not because its 3D. Similarly we like Mania because its a well designed game that captures the essence what 2D Sonic should be, not because its 2D.

(case in point, Sonic 4 was 2D, but classic fans hated because it was a bad fucking game)

All of us, want a good fucking 3D Sonic game. No fuck "good", I want a goddamn Super Mario Galaxy-tier exceptional 3D Sonic game. Unfortunately, this isn't even a good game, forget Sonic game. We hold this franchise to a high standard because we fucking care, and we want it to be better. Simply accepting garbage because it 3D and its the best we'll get...na...sorry, can't do that. 

I'll shit on badly designed, phoned in 3D Sonic games as long as they keep churning them out, and will continute to do so until someone at SEGA and Sonic Team fucking learn, and make a 3D game that does the franchise justice.

[memoryman3]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

As someone who really likes Sonic Heroes, I cannot accept the wrongness of this statement...

 

Nothing from Heroes is even remotely similar to Sonic 2. Especially in regards to momentum and expansive level design...it's long, not expansive.

Well, they AREN'T the SAME, but there are similarities. 

 

 

[Sonikko]

This is disgusting! I mean, people judging a game from a demo? No wonder the world is fucked up!

[Autosaver]

Shadows play such an important role in platforming games that they really shouldn't be added at the last minute. Maybe Sonic Team didn't think the impact would be that big and it won't affect the final product but early impressions could steer people away.

[Cornelius Fudge]

It'll give us an idea of what the core gameplay will be like and if the core gameplay is considered boring and hollow, chances are the rest of the game will be like that as well. Honestly, just because it's the beginning of the game does not justify lack of effort being placed in the game's level design.

[Tails spin]

12 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

This is disgusting! I mean, people judging a game from a demo? No wonder the world is fucked up!

Question, let's take sonic out of the question. When you buy something, a car, a tv, a book, a chair, a bed ,a gaming console, etc. Do you buy it blindly or do you give it a look, test run, read, sit on it, play it before you buy?

We may not have the luxury of physical playimg the game but thank goodness we have the ability to see a product and decide if we want it or not.